Last debate finally becomes a debate, but not thanks to moderator Schieffer

Viewers tonight finally got something closely resembling a debate between the two candidates for president -- though moderator Bob Schieffer, good as he was, didn't have a lot to do with it.

I'm crediting instead all the complaints about the last two debates between John McCain and Barack Obama, in which both men avoided questions they didn't like and ran over time limits like a crowd of shoppers at a Christmas Eve sale.

Clearly, the format of this debate also fed interaction, as both men sat at a table within feet of each other, needing only a nod and brief word of "response?" from Schieffer to bring an energetic rebuttal.

Early on, I got the feeling this was the kind of clash that would play better for McCain over the radio  than on TV. Visually, the Republican echoed all the attitudes voters have been telling pollsters for the last week or so they dislike: bitter anger, impatience, a dismissive contempt for his rival and an impatient glee in unleashing attacks he thinks might damage his opponent.

Obama on the other hand, played a safer game -- batting back the expected attacks on former Weather Underground member Bill Ayers, contentions that he wants to tax small business and John Lewis' comparison of the rhetoric during Sarah Palin rallies to racist activists during the civil rights era. But he didn't respond to some accurate complaints from McCain -- that Democratic ads have mischaracterized his stands on illegal immigration and stem cell research -- reaching for independent voters with a passionate middle-ground justification for abortion rights.

CBS anchor Schieffer mostly scored by setting the table with interesting questions and getting out of the way, interrupting only occasionally to move on when both men seemed willing to keep arguing points.

Watching part of CNN's coverage, with its controversial gauge from a sample of uncommitted voters providing real time indications of their opinion, you saw their interest rise whenever talk turned to the struggles they were facing every day, dipping when the discussion veered into campaign tactics and old history. I will break with many pundits arguing tonight that McCain's 20 references to Ohio plumber Joe Wurzelbacher was an inspired stroke -- to these ears, it felt more like a campaign tactic, particularly when the references kept coming well into the debate.

(Points to CBS News and anchor Katie Couric for nailing the first TV interview with Wurzelbacher, though she loses half those points for putting him on so late in the network's coverage that he literally was able to answer just one question on network TV)

McCain's declaration that "I am not George Bush, if you wanted to run against him you should have done it four years ago" was a line conservatives probably loved. But to those leaning toward Obama, it probably sounded like a flip sidestep.

I was surprised by the snap polls from CBS and CNN showing a big win for Obama (53 to 22 percent in Obama's favor in CBS' poll? Really?) I don't think McCain ran the table like he wanted, but he did raise his rhetorical game. Unfortunately, the bases he kept touching -- lower taxes, school vouchers, anti-abortion ideals -- were issues electrifying the GOP base with little appeal for swing voters.

By mostly keeping his calm and occasionally reaching for the independents -- even while describing GOP supporters calling for him to be killed during rallies -- Obama "won" a debate that felt much more like a vigorous clash between two skilled politicians than previous exchanges. Because they both decided it was time -- just in time for voters.

To read Couric's full interview with Joe the plumber -- who sounds an awful lot like a Republican trying to vibe with uncommitted independents to me -- click below:

AP digs him up here.

YouTube video: Plumber Joe Wurzelbacher's first encounter with Barack Obama. Click the player to start.

COURIC: So Joe, what did you think of the debate? And I know you’re still uncommitted were you   swayed either way?

WURZELBACHER: Um no I wasn’t swayed either way, I mean I have a pretty good idea who I’m going to vote for but you know that’s my you know the nice thing about going into the booth is only me and the lever knows so. I think McCain did a fine job this evening I think he brought up some good points. I do like his health care and I do like his, where he stands on taxes. Obama..

COURIC:  Joe, we’re gonna talk to you more on our webcast because unfortunately we’re out of time. Hold on to the phone because we’re going to come back to you.

CBSNews.com and CNET.com Webcast:

COURIC: We want to go to Joe the plumber, Joe Wurzelbacher from Toledo, Ohio, because Joe is telling me that he's got three live trucks parked outside his house--actually from Holland, Ohio, let me correct that, Joe. Was this a bit of a surreal experience, hearing your name mentioned not once, but twice, but almost half a dozen times during the course of this debate, Joe?

Mr. JOSEPH WURZELBACHER: Yeah, actually, surreal's a good word to use for it. It was--you know, I was glad I was able to act as some type of point, you know, to where they could sit there and hammer out what they both think, what they want to say. But ultimately, you know, the important part was the debate.

COURIC: And again, why don't you just reiterate quickly for us, Joe, because I want you to get back, get to your local news station where you are, how you felt about the statements made by the candidates vs. the statements you heard when they were out on the campaign trail talking to you.

WURZELBACHER: One thing I noticed that seemed like Obama changed his mind on offshore drilling, which I thought was a good move. I don't know how much he wants to do of it, I'd like to talk to--hear more about that. McCain I--made a solid--you know, McCain was solid in his performance. Obama speaks well, but the one thing that's really important, that everyone in America really need to know is, you know, talk is talk. You know, he can speak pretty, but, you know, there's got to be action behind it. We've seen McCain, we know his actions. Even if you disagree with him, at least you know where he stands. McCain--or Obama, we're not sure where he stands yet, even after his debates. Like I said, he speaks eloquently, better than I do, but I honestly, I still don't know where he stands. He's said a lot, but none of his experience has backed it up. You know, the only experience I've seen or his actions are raising our taxes, so, you know, I'm middle class. I can't have my taxes raised anymore.

COURIC: Well, he supposedly will raise taxes only on people who make over $250,000 a year. Would you be in that category?

WURZELBACHER: Not right now at presently, but, you know, question, so he's going to do that now for people who make $250,000 a year. When's he going to decide that $100,000 is too much, you know?  I mean, you're on a slippery slope here. You vote on somebody who decides that $250,000 and you're rich?  And $100,000 and you're rich?  I mean, where does it end?  You know, that's--people got to ask that question.

COURIC: Could you just, Joe, explain quickly, and then we'll let you go, how you met both of the candidates?

WURZELBACHER: I've yet to meet John McCain. Obama came to my neighborhood and my son and I were outside tossing the football, and all of a sudden he showed up, and there went our football tossing for a while. And, you know, neighbors were outside asking him questions, and I didn't think they were asking him tough enough questions, so I thought, you know, I'll go over there. You know, I've always wanted to ask one of these guys a question and really corner them and get them to answer a question of--for once instead of tap dancing around it. And unfortunately I asked the question but I still got a tap dance. Do you--almost as good as Sammy Davis Jr.

COURIC: Joe Wurzelbacher, I mispronounced your last name earlier, Joe. Maybe you should fill in on "Meet the Press," Joe. Or "Face the Nation," I should add. I know they're looking for someone on "Meet the Press," that's why I said that. Joe, hey...

WURZELBACHER: Great. I've got opinions and I, you know, and that's it. But I--you know, everyone has opinions.

COURIC: Yeah, that's for darn sure. Well, Joe, thanks so much for talking with us. I'll let you get outside to your local news reporters. And really, I really appreciate your spending some time with us tonight. And now everybody knows your name, at least, right?

WURZELBACHER: I don't know if that's good or bad, but we'll see how, you know, the future brings.

COURIC: All right, Joe, thanks very much.

Comments

[David]

It's not like you can trust the media to be unbiased.

Which means you will have to think this one through on your own. Certainly, you should never get your political advice from Ben Affleck, Oprah, Madonna or any of the other empty-heads that are confused about their opinions 'mattering'.

This is truly one of the strangest elections in my lifetime. Never have I seen such blatant bias from the MSM. Is it any wonder the thinking people view MSM as worthless?

No offense intended Eric, but there are certainly more admirable lines of work.

[drinklime]

note to all: mccain's poor judgement suggested by his shady associations are just fine

[mr. jones]

Clearly, a lot of likely voters in Florida felt like McCain did a great job during the debate. He kept Obama on the defensive, and lots of viewers were unsatisfied by Obama's fuzzy defenses of untenable positions.

How do we know? According to the latest Zogby poll (and other polls), McCain and that guy are in a dead heat in Florida (one-point difference). I suspect that the situation is the same in other key states.

So despite what the Democratic propagandists and the pro-Obama media would like for voters to believe, the election is far from wrapped up.

For many people, Obama remains the risky choice, in part because of the poor judgment suggested by his shady associations.

[rick]

Deggans,

Tell me again why you support Obama. That was a weak spin job.

[Eric Deggans]

McCain and Obama are high-level politicians -- both men have served on boards or attended fund raisers held by people with shady backgrounds.

But what I don't understand, is that McCain has his own skeletons, and they are directly relatedto the work he has done as a senator and a candidate.

He has several campaign aides who have served as lobbyists for Freddie Mac. He used his influence as a senator to help Charles Keating in a way that led to a huge scandal around his Savings and Loan. McCain apologized for that, in the same way Obama has apologized for and/or denounced everything from Jeremiah Wright to William Ayers long-ago transgressions.

Why is one man's apology accepted and another man's not?

[rick]

More people should be angry at the media. We are in dangerous territory when our manstream media is openly supporting a candidate. In this scenario, can you really rely on the information that is being broadcast to the masses. You cannot because it is tainted with partisanship. A lot of people are ignoring this because they are angry at Bush and are looking for Obama to change everything, but this is DANGEROUS. This is no knock on Obama, but he really hasn't been scrutinized to the degree everyone else has. How else could a man with so many questionable affiliations be so close to the Presidency? How could someone with so little experience and track record be so far ahead in the polls? Because he is a great speaker? Speaking is talk and talk is cheap. Without a record, there is nothing to run on. McCain, as Hillary Clinton did before him, tried to do the media's job for them and expose these inconsistencies, only to be chastised as angry racists. And Obama's community organizers are out spinning the truth and stuffing ballot boxes. Might as well be in Russia.

[rick]

Obama did not win this debate. McCain did, however, he could have dominated if he were a better debator. Obama is the best at debating but I don't think Putin or Ahmadinejad will show up to any debates with Obama when things get out of hand. Something to consider.

[Rick]

Listen, the simple fact is that if and when Obama raises taxes on small business, it will be passed on to the rest of us with price increases. Rich people will tie up their money somewhere where it will be less exposed to taxes. Less money will be circulated and the treasury will continue to print more dollars. Inflation will rise and your dollar will buy less. If you are going to have a free market economy, you really can't avoid this. If labor costs go up because wages are forced up by mandate, this only creates an increase in the price of the end product, which you and I pay for, so there is no real gain there. But hey, if it sounds good, do it, right?

[kitty]

mackpod, Joe the plumber isn't even licensed, nor is his employer! Thank you to whomever put the spotlight on him, although his boss is probably furious with him right now for exposing HIS lack of credentials! LOL! LOL!

[jim]

Obama, won the debate, McCAIN came across as this very angry person, doing his jerky motions. obama was very cool and collective 99% of the time. McCain spent to much time on trival matters that had nothing to do with the country. me i'm a republican to and i will vote for obama because he has an better vision what's wrong with this country. obama gave some respect to palin and mccain ran biden down like he has with every body that obama has in his camp.even hillary said good things about obama after the debate was over with. if we have an democratic house,senate,congress, and mccain is elected what chance has he to get any thing passed. obama talked more about the issues than mccain did. all mccain wanted to do was try and get obama mad and fly off the handle it didn't work he mccain was the one that looked angry all night long. i like the answere that mccain said to obama i'm not bush what obama should have said back to mccain fours ago i was to young to run for president four years ago i bet that would got a rise out of mccain

[Eric Deggans]

I think John McCain came into the debate determined to engage his opponent and Obama was determined to respond effectively.

As much as I like Bob Schieffer, he didn't have much to do with those choices. Jim Lehrer asked questions that were just as good and tried just as hard to get both me to debate each other in the first event, and the candidates mostly refused to do it -- McCain more so than Obama.

Now that I've watched all three debates I've concluded that moderators get too much credit and too much blame for an event which really hinges on the debate format rules -- which are never fully revealed to the public -- and the candidates' own decisions about how they will pursue their objectives during the event.

[DoctorDoom]

OK, can we talk about the debate and not the policies.

Schieffer far surpassed all the other drips who moderated. He asked insightful questions, more so that Brokaw who apparently sought the most boring questions, got responses and mostly stayed out of the way. He did a better job keeping them on time and killed the discussion when it seemed to reach its end, before we got into a "Nuh Uh" Yeah Huh" back and forth.

Not sure what you want, it is not his job to inject himself into the debate; he did a pretty good job of getting the candidates focused on each other.

[Tommy]

Obama indeed is one cool character, and he looked good playing the president on TV last night.

But doesn't he ever get passionate about anything? And what's with all that smirking and barely controlled laughing? Appearing to be amused by your opponent hardly is a viable political tactic - it often backfires, and creates a backlash.

Meanwhile, Obama mostly stayed on the defensive, attempting to respond to McCain's questions about Obama's judgment, character, association with ACORN and various shady friends (Ayers, Rev. Wright, Rezco) and lack of experience.

Instead of allaying fears about his riskiness, though, Obama simply went back to his scripted talking points on the economy - yes, he'll raise taxes on small businesses, many of which will fail as a result.

And he unsuccessfully tried, yet again, to paint McCain as a sequel to Bush (funny, but the Dems have such a short memory - not long ago, even as recent as the primary, when McCain was regularly reviled by his fellow Republicans, he was celebrated by the Dems and their allies in the MSM press). Sorry, nobody's buying that.

And he wasn't very convincing in his too little, too late repudiation of John Lewis's odious charges of racism against the McCain campaign.

Why do the Dems keep playing the race card? Bill Clinton played it in the primary, and now the Obama campaign is going in that direction.

Have they forgotten about the rabid anti-Semitic statements made by such Obama pals as Jeremiah Wright, and such Obama supporters as Jesse Jackson and Nation of Islam leader Louis Farrakhan, who called Obama "the Messiah." Perhaps Obama and the Dems should clean up their house first ...

[Go Rays!]

Both parties are responsible for our crisis. All of those Democratics covering up for Fannie Mae and all of the Repubs too chicken to do anything about it other than talk.

I do think it's brilliant how Barney Frank who is so responsible it's ridiculous points at Repubs and blames them.

"Idiots? You mean like decision-makers who start wars but do not provide sufficient troop strength and plans to successfully complete it?" That's congress, not the President. Bush doesn't "fund" anything.

"You mean like the decision-makers who have been responsible for massive increases in government spending with little to no return on investment to show for it?"
That's Congress not the President.

When did gas prices go up? Since 2006.

I keep wondering why they sell out the Trop during playoff games, people are still at the mall, people still take vacations if this economy is so bad. 461,000 people claim jobless benefits in the whole nation! Most people in this country are paying their mortgage just fine. "it's the worse since the great Depression" -- umm...you ever talk to anyone from the depression? They certainly weren't spending over $80 million going to the movies over the weekend.

Quit crying about your life and make it better yourself. McCain isn't going to do one thing to make your life better, except maybe, MAYBE cut your taxes. Obama isn't going to do one thing to make your life better, except maybe, MAYBE give a tax break to people who hardly pay any taxes in the first place. Turn off your computer and go make a better life for yourself instead of having a lovefest for your candidate and hating the other candidate.

[CarlosB]

I wonder how come Barack Hussein Obama has so many plans now, but never came up with any during his tenure as Senator. He was one of the most obscure liberals in the last 3 years. In Illinois, all he did was to vote present, even when he was there. Don't forget, he is just a junior senator only. Don't tell me he bought and never watched at home those DVD’s sold by Jeremiah Wright, whom belonged to his closest circle of friends. Don't tell me he didn't know the meaning of "America's chickens are coming home to roost". Don't tell me he didn't know Tony Rezko was a crook. Don't tell me he refused to wear the American Flag pin in his lapel because he loved America. Don't tell me he didn't know ACORN only registers democrats. Don't tell me Obama had no idea about Bill Ayers past as a terrorist. Don't tell me you believed Obama when he said he wants to give us a tax cut. Last time any democrat gave America a tax cut was in 1963 with JFK. Bill Clinton promised us a tax cut and gave us the biggest tax increase in the history of this planet, 528 billion dollars. In 3 years as senator, Obama brought home 1 billion dollars in earmarks. About a million dollar per day he served in the Senate. McCain in 27 years got ZERO in earmarks to Arizona. Any distinction? In 2002, Mrs. Obama began working for the University Of Chicago Hospitals (UCH), first as Executive Director for Community Affairs and later, beginning in May 2005, as Vice President for Community and External Affairs. In these roles, she was heavily involved in managing UCH's "business diversity program." In early 2005, shortly after her husband had been sworn in as a Democratic U.S. Senator representing Illinois, Mrs. Obama's annual salary at UCH was suddenly raised from $121,910 to $316,962. Well after Obama gave that hospital an earmark of 100 million dollars. With his associations, Barack Obama would not be admitted as a FBI agent or as a NYPD cop. Shame on me, he will be elected president. I couldn't stop him. He will be the least experienced ever to seat in the Oval Office. A pristine place where Lincoln, Reagan and others sat. What has he done for America in such a short career to deserve such an honor? He registered lots of people to vote as community organizer? Big deal. My daughter got her driver licensed at age 16 without my help. She got her first job by herself. She also bought her first car with her own money. Lately, she registered to vote without the help of any organizer. That's the reason she's voting Republican. She's self sufficient. The people Obama helped were not. One thing in common: she's a product of a minority. We are proud. We are conservatives here. We refuse help. Obama, or anyone like him, would never have our vote. See you in 2012.

[Ronnie D]

The Repubs have put us in this financial crises and worse have tried to get us out of it by selling our economy and all it's debts to China - it won't be long before currency says in small print "made in China" - certainly owed to China. It's time to pay the piper. We can get ourselves out of this mess, but we have to take our country, it's debt and our financial lives off of layaway before we're all speaking Mandarin Chinese. How about just Tax and Payoff Debt, instead of spending or the GOP way of borrowing.

[Joel]

I am an Illinois Democrat, been in business 31 years, and will NOT vote for Obama. He has been a corrupt nightmare in Il and will be on the national level. Too many shady characters in his past and many more to come in the future. Oh by the way, our worst years in business, under Jimmy Carter, our best years,Clinton and the first 6 years under George W. Bush, until the Congress turned Democratic the last 2 years.

[Oscar]

It was funny, I saw the first half of the debate with the sound off because I was doing something else. Based just on the facial reactions, I thought Obama was killing him. Later when I heard it with the sound, McCain did a ton better.

Unfortunatly, the way I see these debates is that it allows me to picture each of them as president. Obama just looks better. He doesn't figit, doesn't get that "I'm Shocked!" look, or grimmace at his opponent like McCain. He looks like someone it would be hard to play poker with. I like that.

Plus, when McCain made that "Air Quotes" gesture about the health of a woman on the abortion section, he lost me, my wife, and every Hillary voter.

Sorry But I think it is over.

[Bob H]

Hey Jason,

How are "tax and spend Democrats" any worse than "borrow and spend Republicans"?

And BTW, I *am* educated, and I *am* voting for Obama.

[mackpod]

Joe the plumber doesn't even make 80K a year. The MCSame plant would be happy to pay the extra 3% tax if he ever makes over 250K.

[Bob]

Hey Jason, "DON'T CRY TO US REPUBLICANS WHEN YOUR (you meant you're)PAYING MORE OUT FROM YOUR INCOME TAXES!!!" Sounds like your uneducated vote is going to be wasted voting for the old man. Hmmm, do you think maybe Jason is in the over $250k a year bracket? Obama is the best and only intelligent choice.

I will vote for Obama, but I think he is not the best nor the most exciting debater.

He barely smiles, and missed responding to key points his opponent raised. He has a habit of starting off a response with, "Look.." which is a turn off. I was worried that for a long time he never seemed to make eye contact with the camera, the moderator, or his opponent, he just kinda looked off in the direction of his opponent down at the table.

Obama finally starting looking at the camera when he talked about the key platform issues he worked for and represented.

The end walk off the stage was telling, too. Obama and Michelle looked gallant, whereas McCain hobbled off the stage well ahead of his wife, who was left alone to walk down the stairs in her heels. He sort of swung his hand at her to tell her to walk off the stage as he charged ahead of her. Very telling.

[Dave]

Oops, they deleted the moron Republican's spam.

Never mind my previous post.

But anyway, Republicans, your great revolution is over. You guys blew it.

[Dave]

"Oh, yes, I forgot, the uneducated vote for Obama, sorry!"

Actually, all studies show that college-educated people overwhelmingly vote Democrat.

Republicans shoot for the lowest common denominator, fundamental Christians, home-schooled people, and the illiterate.

Why do you think they hate science and people who can think?

[Dave]

Haha, look at that dimwit above.

Proof positive of the intelligence level of modern Republicans.

Spamming a comment board online just proves you're a fringe group of morons.

Welcome President Obama! Hooray!

I have stated previously...I am voting for Obama. Those who know me can't believe it, as I probably have many reasons not to: (business person, in the income category subject to Obama's proposed tax increase, lots of potentital capital gains that will be subject to higher taxes under Obama, believer in lower government spending rather than higher taxes or tax cuts).

I also do NOT support so called "re-distribution of wealth" proposals by Obama, Pelosi and Co.

So why do I support Obama?

Simple. Because it is time for the U.S. to take a drastic shift away from George W. Bush and conservative politics as it exists today.

The conservative politics of today are represented by people such as the poster above who calls people supporting Obama "idiots".

Idiots? You mean like decision-makers who start wars but do not provide sufficient troop strength and plans to successfully complete it?

You mean like the decision-makers who have been responsible for massive increases in government spending with little to no return on investment to show for it?

You mean like people whose only argument in supportof a candidate is to resort to name-calling and tearing down the opposition?

I would argue that the U.S. needs far more pragmatic people running things. We know that the far right segment of the population such as George W. Bush, Dick Cheney, et al are not it.

I would also argue that Obama, Pelosi and Biden are not it, either.

BUT...this country needs a period of four years or so where the failed decision-makers are punished by being swept out of power and placed on the sidelines.

Four years from now, I fully expect to make the same argument about Obama and Pelosi (I already think Pelosi is a disaster, but not much to do about it yet thanks to Bush).

Come 2012, it is my hope that the Obamas and Bushs of the world are no longer seen as viabled to lead this country and we finally get a generation of leaders that come to the table with realistic and not idealistic thinking, a past free of strange relationships with Muslims and weird pastors as well as associations with the Bin Laden family, and a view that puts America first and Republicans and Democrats on the trash pile where they belong.

We can't get there without going through a big pendulum swing away from Bush...and that means Obama.

But fear not. It really does not matter who occupies the White House. Our problems actually are traced to the congress and the Senate. And they actually go back 40 years, encompassing both Republican and Democratic control of those branches of legislature.

Only when the people sweep out Pelosi, Durbin, Reid, Shelby, et al and all incumbents regardless of party and keep doing so until they find people willing to do the job for the people and not themselves...only then will this country get back on track.

Until then...this country needs to shift t the left for the betterment of the nation over the long haul.

We can't afford incremental change. We can't afford for the federal government to get caught up on irrelevent issues such as focus on minority groups, human rights, etc. because there are far bigger issues more important to America. Namely: the economy and homeland security. Only when those two are handled...and I mean solved, not just addressed...can these other, less relevent issues be focused on.

We also need far less of the "brainpower" as represented by Jason above.

[Jason]

Hey liberals, if you want to tax the rich and hurt the middle class more, go ahead, VOTE for your loser!! Remind me all, you all cry about Palin and her inexperience? Remind me again what Obama has been in charge of again in his life? Yea, I thought so....The Harvard Review doesn't count!! LOL!! Idiots!!! You want to put a man with NO experience in charge of the free world?? TAX AND SPEND BABY!!! DON'T CRY TO US REPUBLICANS WHEN YOUR PAYING MORE OUT FROM YOUR INCOME TAXES!!! If this moron does win, and I hope somehow he does and screws it up like your precious other idiot Carter did during hard times, Obama will pave the way for 12-16 years of Republican leadership!!! Because you're all in some lala world if you think for one minute tax and spend is going to get us out of this mess!! Hurt the rich = HURT THE MIDDLE MAN!!! BUSINESS 101!! Why not get educated and take some college classes? Oh, yes, I forgot, the uneducated vote for Obama, sorry!

[Dave]

About McCain's "If you wanted to run against George W. Bush, you should have done it four years ago" line (which was pretty good), I could only help but think: "Well, John, if you wanted to run against G.W. Bush, you should have done it eight years ago."

...oh wait...

[Dave]

At least it was more entertaining that the last two.

Doubt it changed anyone's minds at this late date though. Seriously, if you haven't figured out who to vote for by now, have you been living under a rock?