Here's proof FTP is insane!

Remember my hand a coupla posts down where we all flopped sets and I lost a bundle? Well, I talked about it on the show as Hand of the Week and we got an email today about that hand. Tom was in a tournament and saw the EXACT same thing happen, and to prove it, he sent me this screenshot.

FullTiltPoker is insane! I don't care what people say about the stability of programs that are written for these sites, they do this kind of thing ALL the time and it's ridiculous! I can't tell you how many times I see a flop come JJJ or AAA or KKK. In all of the times I have played brick and mortar or even home games, this happens maybe once every coupla months, and yet it happens every time I sit down at FTP or PR.

Sad.

Comments

[Miiles]

While I'm sure you were expecting this, I don't think Full Tilt is rigged. Since I have a powerbook my only real option for online poker is Full Tilt unless I'm using Virtual PC. The only site I used extensively with VirtualPC was Bodog and they seemed much more "rigged" than any other site. More suited flops on bodog than I've ever seen in live games. But that is probably only when I'm holding the nuts for a different suit.In all honesty, though, I think that until there is some real statistical proof that someone can give it's just a load of BS to blame a site for a bad beat. I play almost all of my poker in live games at local card rooms and the weird crap happens as much there as it does online. And speaking of multiple sets, I did get beat on those if you remember the hand of the week from the Limit show.

[Christopher Cosenza]

Hey Miles,Yes I remember your hand from the show. Of course that was only two sets and the guy made quads to beat you. Nothing THAT out of the ordinary there, but three sets on a flop in a raised pot, which by the way, happened to one of our listeners the very next day after I mention it on the show, on the same site with almost the exact same cards, is a little suspicious. Of course when you think of the millions of hands being played at any given time I guess it's not out of the realm of normality.I don't really think FTP is rigged, though there have been arguments that these sites do have a penchant for dealing action flops regardless of their algorithms being completely random. Is it possible these sites are making sure they get the full rake enough times to ensure signifigant profit? Yes. Do I believe that's what's happening? No. At least I don't think it is. But I do believe computer programs are SO random that they tend not to be, if that makes sense. Again, I have never seen three players flop a set in live play, but then again I haven't been playing for 30 years either. But to see it twice in two days is pretty telling, especially on the same site in almost the exact same fashion.If you've ever played a computer poker program you'd know that you can easily beat them because they can't account for the human element. I just wonder if these computer programs that are coming up with these random cards are also eliminating the human error of not shuffling PERFECTLY every time. In other words, a shuffle by human hands is truly random, whereas a shuffle by computer is still just told what random is. Anyway, it sucked losing that hand, as you know. Good discussion. Anyone else?

[ChicagoMike]

Glad to see you guys are getting some great interviews for the show. Hopefully you can corner a few more of the Full Tilters and ask them about these phenom flops on their site. Go for Phil Gordon as he is an original founder and a computer guy as well.I tend to chalk it up to we see 3 times as many hands on line than we do live, so we will see 3 times as much wacky stuff.I have never seen 3 sets in a live game. Closest I've seen is playing 1-2 nl at Bellagio a trip or two ago 2 guys were all in and the 3rd called and had both covered. One guys flips QQ, one KK and the other AA. A fourth guy at table swore up and down that he folded JJ as he was in the cut off and din't want any of this action.Of course the KK spiked his set on the flop and took it all down.Sorry I'm gonna miss the next tourney, but all think about you guys while I'm checking out the new poker room at the Venetien or sitting at Bellagio.

[brettotte1]

I've had some incredible hands in live games before, so I know anything's possible.1. At the finals of a local pub tourney there were 6 tables of 10. It was fairly easy to get to this point of playing once a week for 8 weeks. 1st was a 2 night trip to Vegas + $500. The FIRST HAND the first action goes all in. The next player calls as does EVERY player until it comes to me on the BB.I see Pocket Aces. I think for a minute cuz everyone is going pretty nutz. I know I have the best hand or am at least tied and since every person has gone all in that all the pairs or face cards are gone which means my pair getting beat is more likely due to someone's suited Ace or someone catching a medium/low set of trips. I decide to gamble and call even though I know I should "play my game instead of theirs" as I always say to myself. Plus, it'd make a helluva story.Sure enough I see pocket QQ's on the action, KK's, A/K off, JJ's, 10's, 8's, 6's, A/Q, & QQ's again. I'm in great shape since queens are dead, I'm suited in 2 of the kings. And now I think I only have to avoid a low set of trips. Sure enough it comes out all junk & I take it down.I go on to win the tourney & it was a blast.2. I'm playing a full table at a $20 home game with 25-50 blinds. It's the 1st hand and I'm on the cutoff. I have 22's & call the BB as well as 4 others prior. 7 of us see the flop & it comes up Q72 rainbow. It comes check 3 times, bet, call, call, and I raise the $5 pot another $2.50. Both bettors call so it's $14 now. The turn is junk & again he bets the minimum, a call, then I decide if I'm beat then ducks suck. ( I almost NEVER play a hand with a 2 in it unless under certain circumstances. )I go all in. Both players call so I think I'm in trouble against higher trips. Sure enough one had a queen & one had 8's. I knock 'em out.Of course they say "nice flop", but on the very next hand I get ducks AGAIN. I'm in late position & it is cheap once again, so I see it with 5 players. I catch it on the flop once again with AJ2 rainbow. Basically, the same thing happens & I catch 2 paired ace hands and a 2 pair hand with their hands in the cookie jar. I've now knocked out 5 players.We're down to 4 players & everyone is PO'd of course about my nice flops. They say I'll never see ducks again, but of course I'm dealt 'em AGAIN.I raise of course since I'm chipleader so it's now $1 to see the flop. Kind of a letdown hand since almost the same thing happens as the previous, but I do catch a 2 on the turn this time. People were so antsy they went in on flush draws, straight draws, and pairs. My trips held up and we shortly began another game lol.On the same flipside which I'll tell some other time I have had 9 hands in which I KNEW they had only 1 out. All 9 times they have caught up with straight flushes or beaten my AA's preflop SB hand vs. A/K off with a flop of AKK. Of course they catch quad kings on the river! Ante Up! Caller on 2-1-06

[J Roc]

First of all, stop playing at Full Tilt! Seriously! I know it's tough when you have only have a mac, you're options are limited. Doesn't Party or Stars support macs...? If so you should switch to either site.Secondly, regarding multiple sets, I don't think it's collusion on behalf of the site. Odd things like that happen. Actually, the odd thing would be if those things NEVER happened. I bet if you were to track down all your hands you'd find that the occurance of each type of hand is just as normal as it should be.

[Christopher Cosenza]

The only sites that support Macs are FTP, PokerRoom, Pacific and Hollywood (which is a skin for PokerRoom). Pacific sucks because its software is totally unstable. It's lucrative, but too frustrating. PokerRoom is very stable and I do well there but the games are still limited. FTP offers Razz so I play there for that. I wish the other sites were all Mac compatible because I have heard of all of the soft games there.As for the set over set over set, I just liked venting, but you can't say you've seen that numerous times in B&M games, but we see it ALL the time on FTP etc.Tough call, but we have to deal with it if we want the convenience of rolling out of bed and playing rather than lugging our butts to the cardroom.

[Matt P]

I've seen my share of weird, uncanny, unlikely situations like that online and off. But I think ultimately, it SEEMS like this stuff happens more online because, thanks to the speed of the online game, you see a lot more hands per hour than in any live game, which increases the chances of witnessing something statistically freakish...Lee Jones addresses this very issue in Card Player recently. A great read:http://tinyurl.com/hs4tuIn short, he shows how with the sheer volume of hands dealt per day on his site, PokerStars ("JokerStars" to the conspiracy theorists), the site will deal several "989-1 nightmare" hands every day.

[John in Jupiter]

Chris,I play the local poker room in West Palm and never see the hands or flops that I see on FTP. And I don't believe it's because of the number of hands you see. Just look at the paired flops. I tracked it one sng and it was 45%.I can play all day at PBKC and see maybe five paired flops. I don't think it's rigged; it's set up to facilitate play.

[Christopher Cosenza]

Yes, I hear that from people all the time and the evidence makes it very hard to dispute. When people say it's because we see so many more hands online I don't agree with that. If you add up all of the B&M/homegame hands I've played in my lifetime, they far outnumber the sessions I've had online and I have never seen this type of action flop. Once? OK... Twice in two days? Not likely.BTW: I get over to WPB occasionally. I have an inlaw there in Palm Beach Gardens and he used to live in WPB, right off Congress Ave.

[john from jupiter]

Chris,Do you ever play at PBKC?BTW, through a dealer not shuffling properly, I had back to back wired aces last weekend there and couldn't get anyone to bet. First time bet five times BB. Nothing. Next 2x BB. Nothing. Sorry for the tangent. I wish I could find a site that is more realistic. Any suggestions? I've almost given up on internet play.Finally, not sucking up but my week is made when I download your podcast. I listen to about 20 casts a week (ranging from "the circuit" to "times talk" to "keith and the girl") and yours is my favorite. What I like is that it's conversational, informative and not BS or trying to pitch something. Anyway, good luck and keep up the good work.

[Christopher Cosenza]

Thanks for the kind words John, and no I haven't played there yet, but I only go over there for holidays and funerals. 8-)The next time I get to stay for a bit I will definitely drop in at the PBKC, I've seen commercials for it on FSN or SUN.As for a site that doesn't deal one-of-a-kind action-filled flops and hands, I haven't found one. I do remember suffering few bad beats on Pacific, but I also remember the software failing about a MILLION times when I had the best hand and there was about $90 in the pot. So it evened out.Keep listening, and tell anyone who will listen about our show!

[Christopher Cosenza]

Almost the same thing happened to me last night on FTP. I put this on another post, but I have to say it. Playing NLHE (yes, I know I said I wouldn't play HE on FTP anymore, but I had suffered some losses in Razz and wanted to take it easy for a bit), I was dealt 3-3 and there was a minumum raise with one caller. Flop comes 3-7-6 all spades. One guy bets out and I reraise. One folds the original bettor calls. The turn isn't a spade but it pairs the board. He checks and I put him all-in. He calls and turns over 7-7. The river was a king. The original preflop raiser says he folded KK when all the spades and straight draws came. So it would have been two flopped sets and a third set on the river. I lost a bundle last night, but won some of it back this morning. Not a lot of it, but some.