One-Minute Mystery: The Case of the Pristine Table

We're at a $1/$3 no-limit hold'em table at a Las Vegas casino. It's a brand new table, and everyone buys-in for $200. On the first hand, we're dealt J-J in the small blind. We have three limpers in front of us, and pop it to $15. We get a caller, and then are raised to $50. The button folds, and the action is back to us. What do we do?

Comments

[SlickSlySpy]

The limp/big re-reaise SCREAMS Aces. I fold, especially since it is a ring game and not a tournament. i'll wait for a better spot.

[John Silva]

Easy fold

I'd fold for a number of reasons.

1) it's not a tournament where you try to accumulate chips. it's a ring game where you try not to go broke. sure, you could very, very easily have the best hand here, but you've also only invested 15 bucks in it. if you fold, you're not down much but if you stay in the hand you could be down much much more. why risk it this early in the session on what's at best a coin flip and at worst putting you way behind a monster?

2) it's the first hand at a brand new table. you have no idea how anybody else plays yet. I know you are supposed to be ready to play every hand whether it's the first one or not but still, why risk it this early and possibly spend the rest of the night trying to get back? Yeah, this may be a tight approach but I figure I'd rather stick around and learn who makes the mistakes I can take advantage of over the next few hours rather than risk my buy in so early with no knowledge of the table.

of course, since it's a one minute mystery folding pre flop isn't going to make for a very exciting episode so my guess is we call the raise, see a flop, an Ace comes on the flop which scares us but we turn a set and win over A-K offsuit!

Michael

[Turley11]

yup, I fold as well... Two options here I see here, push or fold. I fold and watch a flop of JJK and then go puke ;)

[Dave]

Chris nailed it. Limp in...see a flop. You just don't know how these people play.

But given where we are, the reraiser could easily have AA with that move...and he could easily have A-rag as well. What do we have to help us gauge our decision? Absolutely nothing. No clue about his style of play, betting patters, etc. Do you want to risk 1/4 of your stack just to see a flop? And what if a Q, K, or A shows up on the flop?

Next hand, please, dealer.

[JLBSox]

2 options call or shove. The pot odds are too good to lay this hand down.

1) Call- call and see a flop. It is possible that he has one of the 3 hands that has you dominated, but he could also have a much worse hand like 10-10 or A-Q. See what the flop brings and take it from there. No matter what the flop brings, you are going to have to lead out with a bet or else he will take the pot away from you. If an ace comes on the flop and he has K-K, represent that Ace.

2) Shove- You have fold equity!! He may be making a move on you and lay it down. Best of all, you won't have to play this tricky hand from out of position.

[John Silva]

You are making a big assumption about the pot odds, if he has AA, KK or QQ. Your aren't getting good enough odds to call. With that many limpers and a raise in front, he should have one of those hands.

Again, for me it's an easy fold.

[Joker]

A wise man once said.......There are three ways to play Jacks.........and they're ALL wrong!!!!!!!!!!

[blazman]

I don't think that you can make any assumptions about this player. You know nothing. He could have 5-2 off. The problem with calling is that if it comes under cards you don't know where you are at, if it comes overs, you have to throw the hand away.

Basically the flop needs to have a J, otherwise you can not call a pot sized bet, or throw a bet out there.

I like to see a lot of flops for cheap and play post flop, I don't like putting a lot of money in pre-flop. Especially with JJ.

I FOLD...

-Blazman

[gadzooks64]

How much gambol do you have in you?

This is a cash game.

If I'm in the mood to gamble, I call and play from there. Maybe even pull as stop n go on a good flop.

At this stage it's so hard to make any read whatsoever.

Absolutely nothing wrong with folding and waiting for a better read/spot.

I'd say this guy is definitely here to gamble. Have a little patience and he'll pry pay you off.

[Bulldogmafia]

Your getting re-raised / squeezed by a second limper, who rarely if ever has any type of hand that your afraid of (QQ,KK or AA)...with the amount of money in the pot and the amount of FE you can generate you have an easy move, PUSH.

[Joe- Unimpressed]

***Your getting re-raised / squeezed by a second limper, who rarely if ever has any type of hand that your afraid of (QQ,KK or AA)***

Well we don't know that. This is the first hand and I'm definitely not overplaying jacks. This is a call or a fold. Even if he has AK or AQ are you really going to risk your stack on a coinflip?

If I was a better player I'd probably fold and wait to gain more info on the player.

[Chris Cosenza]

There's no way I fold. NO WAY. For the money I'm getting on a call I'm headed in that direction, or a re-reraise at least. I put this guy on 88 or something like A-x. but certainly not AK or AA, KK. No way he takes a chance that early with a limp play. Most people are VERY tentative on first hands and know that most will limp on first hands. If he takes that kind of chance here he's crazy. Given this he has A-9 or 88. But I could be wrong, I often am.

[Bubba]

Chris put him on the same range I did when listening to the podcast this morning - I put the guy on middle pair or an ace x ranging A8 to AQ. I can't see anyone with a high pair limping in and making this series of bets preflop. This seems like a donkish way to play any hand.

I grit my teeth and push because if I just call, the guy who still has to react to the $50 bet has almost 4-1 odds to call ($35 into a ~125 pot). And it'll be hard to play any flop out of position just by calling. And folding seems too weak to me given half the guys at a typical 1/2 table are not so good.

Prediction - villian shows 10 10 / A Q / AJ...

[T8 Stack]

As much as it pains me, I'm folding. If there is one time I don't want to see AA, it's on the very first hand of a game, ring or tournament. Too many people are not going to take any chances on the very first hand. Most want to start building their "tight" image. This guy has Aces or Kings and only reraised so aggressively because he felt he had to protect his hand.

[storit]

I PUSH. Why? This opinion is based on the fact that you know absolutely nothing about how these people play. Obviously if you had been playing for awhile and this guy was a rock that only played monsters my answer would be different. Remember, you never get a second chance to make a first impression.

1) This is the first hand at a brand new table. The limp re-raiser wants you to know that he will not be pushed around, and is trying to set the tone for the rest of the session.

2) If he does have a better hand (AA, KK, QQ) he may lay the QQ down, possibly (slightly) even KK. If he doesn't lay down the better hand and ends up winning then you grit your teeth, re-load, and smile in knowing that you have just set the tone that if anyone wants to play against you, you will not be bullied and that you are willing to get all of your chips in the pot at any time and they will have to be willing to face an all in from you (even with a less than premium hand) if they want to re-raise you.

[Spawgan]

I would have to push here. This looks alot like a move to try to pick up the dead money now put into the pot. I only have 200.00 at risk and if my read on the situation is right I am not to crippled if i buy in for another 200.00 and only outchiped by one player at the table. I can't lay down the Js and no way in the world I can just smooth call. If i beleive he is on a steal, which I do, have to push. Not to mention if he is on a steal, the push will have fold equity.

Personally I hate the limp re-raise move, all you do is price to many people in to call your monster hands that don't play well multi-way.

Well, as usual, there appears to be no unity in The Nation about what to do in this situation.

All I have to say is that some of you must be playing at the 1-2 tables in Vegas where those that can't play in the big game go. In all my time playing there (or even locally for that matter) I rarely see the type of player that will make the kind of move our villain is making if he doesn't have a big pair or if he's overplaying suited A-K or A-Q.

I know it's a OMM so we're going to call or push and our villian is also going to go with us. Then, we'll see that our villian has one of the hands we've discussed and not an under pair. He'll hit an A on the flop if he was overplaying a big suited Ace but we'll also hit our Jack on the turn and win.

But.....for only being invested for 15 bucks I say let him have it and go to school learning his play and get the money from him later.

I just can't see risking all of it (285 more) when I can get away for only 15 bucks when I know absolutely nothing about my opponent's play, let alone his pre-flop play.......from his perspective, why risk the 85 bucks or whatever to win 20? I just don't think he's actually making a move. the players at the 1-2 tables filled with touristas just haven't been that sophisticated when I've been there. or, I've just been lucky and found the very good games to play in.

I must admit, this is the first OMM that I've actually paid this much attention to and look forward to finding out how we suck out on our villain! ;-)

Michael

[Clever Moniker]

My first impression of this was the villan has a midling pair like 77-TT, or a semi-big A (A9-AJ), probably sooooooted. With a bunch of limpers Columbo raised, which could look like a steal of the dead money. Villan sees this & decides a re-steal w/ his semi-decent hand ("if he calls, I have something to go to war with"). First hand at a new table, he has some gamble in him just itching to get out. Plus, I like storit's line about trying to set a tone - he's posturing for future play. I like either a push here or a stop & go on any non-A flop (you have first in vig being in the SB). If he has the goods on you, so be it. Do another buy-in (you do have two buy-ins available, right Columbo?) & now you have some info on our opponent.

I love playing w/ other people's money - it is so easy to push it around w/ impunity.

[Chris]

Without any history on the player on the "pristine" table, I say you fold, if you are in for a long session, as time goes on, you will be able to make a better judgment in a similar situation in the future. Even if you have him beat right now, he more than likely a least 1 over card on you and possibly a flush draw. Best case, you still have roughly a 1/5 shot of losing the hand and based on the play thus far I would almost rule out a lower pair because a lower pair is going to call and hope to get a set. A suited Ace or A-Q puts you in a ~ 60/40 shot at winning the hand. If you call you can get away from it after the flop, but all you can really hope for is a J with a rainbow board or a board without an Ace, King or Queen. I would keep 90% of your starting stack and try to beat this player when you have a better feel for them. J's aren't a hand you willingly go broke with. Given that the table is new, all the stacks are similar, if you are confident in your skills you fold and beat them with your skill as time progresses.

[Chris Cosenza]

I can't believe how many people are saying fold. This deserves AT LEAST a call. And if I'm confident enough in my skill to beat them over the longhaul, then I'm confident to know when I'm facing 88 or A-10 and I push or re-reraise, which is exactly what I'd do.

[blazman]

CC, after you call, then what sort of flop are you looking for. Lets say it comes, 2-4-9 offsuit. Then what do you do? Lets say it comes Q-7-4, then what do you do? Lets say you bet and he comes over the top of you, then what do you do?

-Blaz

[Chris Cosenza]

Bet. Bet. Push.

[Michael Paul]

^^^^^^^ bet. bet. push. chips on table 4 please! ;-)

[Godard]

I fold with a stern stare.

The nice thing about folding is, you are getting a lot of information for the cost of one dinky $15 raise. The limper/reraiser is telling you he has a monster, so listen to what he's telling you. And if he's a super donk, reraising with crap, your $15 tells you that you'll be able to get your money back soon enough.

[JLBSox]

I would bet any flop at all.
2-4-9 off
Q-7-4
A-10-3
If you don't bet the flop, he will no doubt bet and unless they are all under cards, you will have to fold. Bet and put the pressure on him. If he didn't hit, your call pre-flop and bet has to be somewhat concerning to him. Make him make a difficult decision. If he raises you, it will be a difficult decision. You will probably be pot committed.

[Chris Cosenza]

Gotta disagree with Go-DAHR here. You get ZERO information if you fold. You said he has a monster, are you sure? And if he doesn't have a monster, if the other player(s) fold how will you know? Now you lost $15, folded with the 4th best hand possible and were getting 2.6 on your money to call. You have to call, see a flop and let him act first. If it's rags, I reraise a bet or bet out to a check. Of course if I was in the hand with JLBSox I would KNOW if he had a monster because I have a massive tell on him. LOL!!!

[blazman]

You are actually getting 2:1 on your money if you call. (9+15+50)/35= 2.1

If he has an over pair you are 4:1 dog, and makes no sense to call. If he has AK or AQ, you are 1:1 to win, getting 2:1 money I guess you call and see a flop right? Maybe you are a 4:1 dog. The point is that you just don't have any idea what this player is capable of doing with any 2 cards, and I don't like getting my money in with that uncertainty.

Lets say the flop comes with either a K, Q, or A ? Now what? You say that you push is a Q hits?

I don't know how you can get your money in right here without any read whatsoever on the player. Your just putting him on a hand that you can beat based on the probability of him having a lower pair or 2 over cards. Maybe I place too much value on the money, but $200 is way to much to risk here on JJ. But good luck, and I hope that a J flops for Colombo and everyone that calls.

-Blaz

[jherky]

I agree with most that I fold and look for a better position later. As I fold, though, I "accidently" let my JJ flip over to let people think they can push me around and that I'm a tight player.

But what I really want Columbo to do here is push, look the limp re-raiser squarly in the eyes and say, "I'll tell ya, if I'm right about this, it's gonna tickle the life outta me!" in a Columbo like voice.

[JLBSox]

Chris, You are first to act. Unless the flop is crazy scary A-K-9 suited(and you don't have that suit), you have to bet out, otherwise he will take the pot away from you. If you agree that most flops you need to bet out on, with $150 left and about $120 in the pot, how much do you bet? If you decide to bet out $100, are you pot committed if he raises all in?
By the way Chris, people who live in glass houses.....

[Chris Cosenza]

JBLSox, I forgot we were in the SB, but of course I bet out. I've stated that at least once on this forum. And Scott told me what you sent him and I laughed.

Blaz, you have three limpers ahead of you, that's $9, you put in $15 ($14+$1SB), the BB folds, that's $12, you get a caller that's $9 more and then the guy makes it $50 which is $47 more. That means one limper folded. So, there's your $15, the BB's $3, the caller's $15, the folder's $3 and the reraiser's $50 for a total of $86. You have to call $35 to win $86. PLUS, you don't know if the other guy who called $15 will call the additional $35,a nd if he does, you're looking at a $121 pot for a $35 call. Before that though you are still getting 2.4571-to-1 on your money. If you factor in a call behind you then you're looking at 3.4571-to-1. Easy call either way.

[Michael Paul]

but, if you factor in a call behind you do you really think your Jacks are the best hand on anything other than a 10-5-deuce rainbow flop?

[blazman]

I missed that call between Colombo and the raiser. So you are hoping to take JJ against 2 players neither of which you have a read on? Chris, I think you are taking the opposite side to create controversy and get blog hits. I don't think that you play this hand like this.

[rascony]

The first limp/caller has me more worried than the guy who limp/re-raised. The original limper, who has already called one raise, just might squeeze here if you don't push, and then it's deja-vu all over again. Jacks vs 2 people, out of position, your only in $15, all adds up to a fold for me (though i'm a nit). And if your table is just starting, you've got plenty of time to get it out of these guys later.

Didn't he say something last week about reading all the signs, I think this falls into the same category. Though this time there is the added problem of having absolutely zero reads on either villain.

[Scott Long]

I love how fanatical my co-host (which, BTW, I've taken to calling "Spazmanian Devil") is getting over this. I think we all see now why Chris suffers so many "bad beats" online. You have NO information on your opponent. None, zilch. It's the first hand!!! You got JJ. In the WORST position. Pot odds be darned, I'm VERY content to fold and say "Nice bet, sir" (which it was) and save those 35 bullets for a fight when I have much more confidence in where I stand. You really want to commit $200 (which is what it sounds like you're going to have to do unless you hit a 2-outter on the flop) on some sort of Rambo bravado trip? But what do I know? I'm just a donk limit player where I could pop it again and check-call it down if I want for far less than $200.

[Chris Cosenza]

Sorry, not stirring controversey here, just can't believe you aren't thinking this hand through enough to see that you need to re-reraise or at least call here. It's very obvious to me that the guy who re-popped it is trying to steal. Why? If he had AA would he really just call the BB after at least one limper ahead of him and a SB and BB behind him, plus other players? For the same reason you give that I should lay it down is the same reason why this guy wouldn't limp with aces: He knows nothing about the table. Would he really risk a hand like AA going up against 5 limpers? And since he knows nothing about this table (and usually people play VERY tight when a new table is spread) can he really rely on someone raising behind him so he could pop it? No. As for the guy behind me, he's weak. Calling $12 in a $1-3 live game is NOTHING, and a call means he CAN'T have JJ beat. I either push or at least call. And if a scary board comes I bet out. If I'm re-raised THERE then I lay it down. If I have so much confidence in my reading and playing ability (as a lot of you here have used this as your reason for folding), then being down $75 after one hand shouldn't do anything to your ability to dominate this table and win back that money. Right?

I am the Spazmanian Devil! My co-host is just jealous because he's still a losing player after all of these years and couldn't fight his way out of NL paper bag even if he had a tower of checks. I can't even believe he commented on this subject. If it were his Columbo bit he'd have minraised to $6 preflop.

"Would he really risk a hand like AA going up against 5 limpers? And since he knows nothing about this table (and usually people play VERY tight when a new table is spread) can he really rely on someone raising behind him so he could pop it?"

but you're thinking about it from the perspective of the co-host of the longest running poker podcast and somebody who allegedly should know something about the game, not from the perspective of some dude from Columbus in town for a conference who walked by the poker room and say "Hmmm, I've seen that on TV!" :-) 90% of the people I've seen at the 1-2 and 1-3 tables don't have the skill or sophistication to do what you think they're doing. the unsophisticated like to limp with monsters and raise it when somebody bites. hell, when i started playing I thought that was smart too.........

If it were another location where there's more regulars playing the game I'd believe you but in Vegas, the land of the fish, I have a harder time with it.

Michael

[blazman]

Scott = the voice of reason, I knew there was a reason for making you my avatar....

Chris, I feel that because you have this pickle in the middle that calling is not an option. Assuming that you are going forward with the hand, you need to raise for 3 reasons.

1. Why would you ever want to take JJ against 2 players. You need to isolate.

2. JJ is a crap hand, maybe you can get some fold equity by re-raising.

3. Find out for sure where you are at. If he calls a pot sized raise or comes over the top, you can be sure that you are beat.

Unfortunately where #3 is concerned finding out where you are at costs you your whole stack. This commitment defines the term "over playing jacks."

Peace
-Blaz

[Chris Cosenza]

Yes, I agree that a re-reraise is MUCH better than just calling, hence my posts saying "at least call." And I'm not sure I want to live in a world where Scott Long is the voice of reason. I think I'll dig up those sleeping pills when I get home.

[blazman]

"at least" implies that you think that calling is a better option than folding. Is this true for you?

I'd rather live in a world where Scott is the voice of reason than live in Spazmania.

-Blaz

[Chris Cosenza]

But if you lived in Spazmania I'd make you secretary of defense. You could hypnotize our enemies!

I'd rather re-reraise to answer your question.

[blazman]

OK fine, I will come and live in spazmania, under 2 conditions, I don't HAVE to over play JJ if I don't want to. AND I prefer to be called Minister of Defense, secretary sounds so subservient.

-Blaz

[JLBSox]

"JJ is a crap hand" ???
It's a frustrating hand and very difficult to play, but when I think of crap hands I think of J-4, 8-3 etc..

[blazman]

You know what I mean, crap hand for the situation...

[Chris Cosenza]

OK, you're hired!!!

Scott can be the janitor.

[Godard]

Hey kids, full tilt sit n go, i'm under the gun with AA so i LIMP. UTG+1 min-raises. BB calls. I go all-in for 10x the bet, and UTG+1 calls with 66.

Thanks, columbo, for starting this discussion and helping me realize that a lot of donkeys will call a limp-reraise that just SCREAMS aces.

[Godard]

Oh Chris, you're gonna get the information, since there are so many aggressive players (like you and 75% of the ante up nation) that will indeed call, and there are two players yet to act in this hand. Surely one of them is dumb enough to call with their Ax or 66 or whatever?

I'm CERTAIN you're going to get info from this clown, either through callers or from him revealing his hand voluntarily.

-Go-DARHHHH

[Chris]

I agree with Go-Darhhhh...

At least one player will call more than likely and one of them will flop a set or get a pair higher than J's. You don't have the nuts and you can't push these people off this hand given their knowledge of you. Colombo will fold and find out he had the best hand, but by the end of the session, he will be up against these donks... You don't want to push all your money in on a coin flip this early.

[blazman]

Well you would have gotten lucky Mr. President, but I agree 100% with Colombo

[Boil dunce Son]

I love that his hand is so simply stated but has generated such interest, I would have limped in with the JJ hoping to flop a set as the raise was opening us up for this sort of thing, when we know nothig about the players.