Has this "poker is a sport" stuff gotten out of hand?
I admit it - I like to jaw with folks who bemoan poker's pseudo-status as a "sport." Obviously, the physical intensity of poker can't match football or even tennis (and list me one other sport where athletes can have a heart attack and come back and compete later that day, like you hear about in poker). Fine points, I tell my opponents. But then I remind them that it IS competition (and doesn't have to be physical), and virtually every "sport" requires intelligence, cunning and other mind-driven attributes in order to achieve success. Fine points, they say.
But now, I've completely and totally lost control of my argument. CardPlayer is reporting that a new competition called "PokerBowl" begins Saturday, with the championship to be played Tuesday in Vegas. And, no surprise, Fox Sports will air it all next year.
What is PokerBowl? Well, the country is divided into teams with catchy poker names like "Cincinnati Full House" and "Atlanta Bluffers" and utterly bland names like "San Diego Players" and "Orange County Outlaws" and make-you-puke punny names like " Pittsburgh Stealers." A bunch of big-name pros somehow got hooked up in this (a nice payday, I'm guessing).
The concept is kinda cool - players from the same team are seated at the same seats at different tables, and the tournament plays out. The winning player wins the competition for his/her team. But must we have gone the extra step, and created goofy names? The entire competition is being played in Vegas, so I'm not sure how many "Tennessee Tilt" fans are going to make the trip. I'm hoping they didn't go one extra step and create goofy logos and, gasp, uniforms, but I guess we'll have to wait until the broadcast to find out (someone please let me know, since I've programmed my Tivo to search out and destroy this show).
What's next? Trades? Collective bargaining agreements? $10 beers at poker events? Remember the old days when we just played cards? It's getting hard to remember that, isn't it?
- SCOTT
P.S.: Two more interesting things to check out in CardPlayer. The World Series of Poker has set its 2008 dates (though not the schedule), and Allyn Jaffrey Shulman weighs in with a more coherent explanation of the proposed ULIGEA regs than I managed, but at least I'm vindicated that someone with legal training agrees it's all quite complicated.
Christopher Cosenza is co-host of the longest running poker podcast on the planet, Ante Up! He started playing poker seriously in 2003 and his favorite players are Phil Ivey and Kenna James, though he tends to act like Phil Hellmuth if you make a bad play against him.
Scott Long, Ante Up!'s other co-host, is the author of the monthly Bet on It column in tbt*. He began gambling way too young (don't tell the fuzz!) and in the seventh grade, named his state "Gambleland" for a school project (State Animal? Loan shark, of course).
Absolutely agree, completely overdone and it will probably be the most predictable "Jumping of the Shark" in the history of television.
That being said, wouldn't it be interesting/fun if one of the online sites would set up a set of "poker bowl"-style tables, were people could put together teams of players to compete against each other in a similar structure/format (one player from each team at the same seat of each table, team with highest cumulative score wins, etc.)?
A little similar, in a way, to what they are experimenting with over at DuplicatePoker.com - but I like the Poker Bowl idea better (the pre-set deck/same hands at each seat thing they do at DuplicatePoker is very, very weird.)
Posted by: Zerbet | October 17, 2007 at 12:25 PM
Did anyone see on Card Player that the WCOOP main event winner was DQ'd? It doesn't say what he did, but I'm dying to know more about this story. Maybe he changed the RCG to his favor! No, wait, it was on PokerStars, not FTP...
:)
Posted by: Marky | October 17, 2007 at 12:58 PM
Two things. Pokerroom.com had Team Poker, which was a pretty cool idea, in which a bunch of different teams played SnG style. One person from each team at each table. The winning team got the majority of the prize pool.
PokerBowl. The other difference is that team memebers CAN end up at the same table. Players can "signal" to their teammates to let them know what kind of hand they have. Basically it allows collusion.
Some pros refused to play for that very reason. While it's allowed in this syntax, it gives it a negative image.
Posted by: Joe-Unimpressed | October 17, 2007 at 01:42 PM
I like to think of Poker as a sport, because that allows me to think of myself as an athlete. An overweight, out-of-shape athlete, but then, so is John Daly.
Posted by: Ron | October 17, 2007 at 02:40 PM
Oh yeah, and my view of a whether it's a sport or not...
Uh.. NO. But it's definitely a competition. Same as backgammon, chess, magic: the gather, etc.
Posted by: Joe-Unimpressed | October 17, 2007 at 03:06 PM
There seems to be a large number of people that define sport, among other things, as the opportunity to get physically hurt in competition.
If poker isn't a sport for that reason, nor is chess but a beer drinking match in the local bar is (or, for that matter, the bar fights that follow). Actually, the antics of hooligans after a European football match or more of a sport than the match itself.
This pokerbowl however, sounds a tat silly. It seems like forcing an individual kind of competition into a team sport. It's the mirror of having a football game where to winner is the individual that scores the most points.
No, doesn't seem to be a good idea.
Posted by: Erwin Blonk | October 17, 2007 at 03:25 PM
From Dictionary.com
1. an athletic activity requiring skill or physical prowess and often of a competitive nature, as racing, baseball, tennis, golf, bowling, wrestling, boxing, hunting, fishing, etc.
3. diversion; recreation; pleasant pastime.
Therefore poker is as much a sport as duck hunting (and I've seen more than my fair share of overweight duck hunters)
Poker does require a great sense of awareness and a high level of mathematical prowess to be able to compete successfully and actually pull off a profit.
Now granted, it's not a physical sport, but it does require skill to be good.
Posted by: J.R. Murdock | October 17, 2007 at 03:43 PM
Wow, thanks for mentioning Magic the Gathering Joe-Unimpressed. I still can't believe they put that on my bio for MansionPoker Pokerdome.
On a side note which may eat up some of your vacation time Chris, I saw on Digg.com the story about AbsolutePoker hosing players. I'll give you all the links and let you ferret the story out cuz who better than our crackerjack poker reporters.
http://www.digg.com/security/Major_Online_Poker_Room_Caught_Cheating_2
http://www.poker-king.com/poker-king-articles.php?article=282
http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/showflat.php?Cat=0&Number=12523924&an=0&page=0
I definitely agreed with Scott that there's no way an online casino would risk cheating or creating scenarios to get big pots, but after this fiasco I think it might ripple to other poker sites to ensure they're not screwing anyone.
Posted by: Brett | October 17, 2007 at 04:02 PM
Did someone say BOWL?
Oh, and, I'd like to go on the record as saying,
"Poker is not a TEAM SPORT."
That is all.
Posted by: gadzooks64 | October 17, 2007 at 04:27 PM
I know this might be off topic from this blog entry but I am now a very firm believer that there is something wrong with the RNG at Full Tilt. Check out this hand. You tell me you are going to call an all in bet with now draw, no pair?
Full Tilt Poker Game #3885381839: $5 + $0.50 Sit & Go (29576270), Table 1 - 15/30 - No Limit Hold'em - 18:35:12 ET - 2007/10/17
The button is in seat #6
*** HOLE CARDS ***
Dealt to viii_ball [9s 9h]
Andre Benjamin folds
Bergi83 folds
buzzsf150 raises to 105
NinjaSnipr folds
poker_kid1o1 folds
viii_ball raises to 350
buzzsf150 calls 245
*** FLOP *** [Ks Qd Kh]
viii_ball checks
buzzsf150 bets 450
viii_ball raises to 1,150, and is all in
buzzsf150 calls 700, and is all in
viii_ball shows [9s 9h]
buzzsf150 shows [Ac 7h]
*** TURN *** [Ks Qd Kh] [Ah]
*** RIVER *** [Ks Qd Kh Ah] [Ad]
viii_ball shows two pair, Aces and Kings
buzzsf150 shows a full house, Aces full of Kings
buzzsf150 wins the pot (3,015) with a full house, Aces full of Kings
viii_ball stands up
Posted by: | October 17, 2007 at 06:47 PM
Here you have it. Proof from Full Tilt that there is NOTHING wrong with their RNG. I sent in the hand above just to get their response and here it is:
Hello DONKEY,
Thank you for contacting Full Tilt Poker Support.
I have reviewed the hand in question, and see that you were unfortunately outdrawn and were eliminated from the tournament as a result. I can fully understand why you could believe this play is suspect, but rest assured, our shuffle is random and there is no way for 'buzzsf150' to know what was going to be dealt next. If you would like to visit the link below, Perry Friedman's explanation of our RNG is very revealing about how online shufflers work, and ensure that hackers cannot infiltrate our site.
http://tinyurl.com/a4y24
Please consider that as well as being technically close to impossible, there is no motivation for a poker site to "rig" the deck in favor or against a specific player. From a business standpoint, it makes sense to keep players happy, and the best way to keep players happy is to provide a legit, fair, and friendly game. This is why site integrity is of paramount importance to us.
I have the feeling that you misunderstand how our business operates. Unlike casino sites, poker sites do not earn revenue when a player loses money. Our income is derived solely from the rake, a small percentage of the pot that is taken from the winner of the hand. Understand that in a very real sense, we have no interest in the outcome of individual
hands.
Manipulating the dealing of cards does nothing to increase our revenue and everything to minimize it--it would be financial suicide as a business decision to engage in such unethical activity, ruining our reputation.
Understand that your losses are not translated into our gains; the player who has won the money from you has gained to be sure, but this is completely unrelated to how our revenue is derived.
Unfortunately in the short-run, variance is such a large factor in poker, and many players will receive more than their expected average of premium hands in terms of card distribution and consequently at times, less than their expected average of premium hands. The same can be said in terms of hitting flops and completing draws or having hands hold up.
It is only when dealing with very large numbers that a player's average statistics will approach its expected average. This is where the expression, "professionals play by the month, not by the day" is derived.
Understand that there is no "doom switch" but there certainly is statistical variance. It is only when speaking of tens of thousands of hands that personal statistics begin to approach its theoretical expectation. For players that play this game for a living, it is imperative that they keep a very large bankroll to endure such fluctuation. It is well known that an excellent player that may win from 1 to 2 big bets an hour playing limit can lose 300-500 big bets, and a winning no-limit player can endure a run of 20 or more buy-in losses, again due to variance. In sit and gos, 20 to 30 session droughts in which a player does not cash is not uncommon. These are taken into account, and professionals are very conscientious of when to move down limits to lower their risk of ruination to a reasonable level.
Knowledge of these statistics will not make these players immune to bad beats--nobody is--however, they will react better when these inevitable bad runs do occur. Also, these same players are very honest with themselves, analyzing when they are running bad, and when they are playing bad. It is often the level of honesty that separates an excellent player from someone who is merely above average.
I strongly suggest that you visit the poker forums in the link below; it is the largest poker forum that is visited by many poker enthusiasts such as yourself, and is an unbiased third party to our site (and any other poker sites in business). I believe that the voice of the general poker community will be more persuasive in dissuading you of your belief that online poker is rigged.
http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/ubbthreads.php
On behalf of Full Tilt Poker, I wish you the best of luck at the tables. DONKEY, Should you have any questions or concerns, please do not hesitate to contact us.
Regards,
Tom
Poker Specialist
Full Tilt Poker Support
Posted by: | October 17, 2007 at 08:17 PM
Guess I should write Tom back and thank him for setting me straight.
Posted by: viii_ball | October 17, 2007 at 08:25 PM
"The only true sports are mountain climbing, auto racing and bullfighting. All others are only games"
-Ernest Hemingway
Posted by: Chris B | October 18, 2007 at 03:33 AM
I heart Tom, Poker Specialist.
Posted by: Clever Moniker | October 18, 2007 at 08:58 AM
In addition to what T,PS said, I would observe that if it seems odd to you that some jakeass would call an all-in with a naked ace in a five dollar sit-and-go, you have simply not been playing enough online poker.
Posted by: st | October 18, 2007 at 09:32 AM
+1
Posted by: ngreen | October 18, 2007 at 10:22 AM
Some day we will be saying (in old man voice) "Remember when we used to just play cards? Those were the days."
-Blaz
Posted by: Blazman | October 18, 2007 at 10:53 AM
Some day we will be saying (in old man voice) "Remember when we used to just play cards? Those were the days."
-Blaz
Posted by: Blazman | October 18, 2007 at 10:54 AM
If it's on ESPN, ESPN2, or The Ocho, it must be a sport. I can't wait until the spelling Bee makes it's annual return...........
Michael
Posted by: Michael Paul | October 18, 2007 at 01:32 PM
Why can't it just be a game? Why does it have to be a sport? If poker is a "sport", then are Battleship and Othello sports? (Now, Candyland? Totally sport.)
Let's look at merriamwebster.com and see how they define sport and game.
Game: ~ A procedure or strategy for gaining an end. (Good)
~ An illegal or shady scheme or maneuver (hmmm)
~ A target or object especially of ridicule or attack (ah-HA!)
Sport: ~ A source of diversion (Good)
~ Often mean-spirited jesting (Good),
~ A laughingstock (Getting warmer)
~ An individual exhibiting a sudden deviation from type beyond the normal limits of individual variation. (We have a winner!)
It's clearly a very sporty game.
Posted by: TheOpus | October 18, 2007 at 02:00 PM
People care about the distinction because they still harbor circa-2004 delusions that poker is going to become a national sports obsession on a par with the other professional leagues.
But that's just not going to happen. The boom has permanently raised the profile and popularity of the game from what it was, but the boom is over, and the "poker as sport" stuff looks sillier and sillier. For example, what's the best poker show on television? HSP, the least sportslike of them all. The worst by far are all these American-gladiator style poker-dome sports wannabe shows that try to pump the sight of nine guys sitting at a table into a modern rock and roll media sports happening. It looks IDIOTIC, and thankfully these shows are almost immediately cancelled because nobody wants to watch that crap.
Poker Bowl won't last three episodes before it is shelved or moved to Fox Ocho, if there is such a purgatory.
Posted by: st | October 18, 2007 at 02:32 PM
Candyland? Don't forget Chutes and Ladders
Posted by: | October 18, 2007 at 09:09 PM
Is poker a sport? In my completely worthless opinion absolutely not.
However it does take it's toll on me mentally more if not physically than any sport I have played.
Posted by: Scotsman420 | October 19, 2007 at 04:12 AM
From Webster website
-an individual exhibiting a sudden deviation from type beyond the normal limits of individual variation
The rest of which, is... usually as a result of mutation especially of somatic tissue. It's a medical reference, not the way they mean sport.
Also the first entry is 3 parts:
a: a source of diversion : recreation.
b: sexual play - uh not sure when I use sport in a sexual reference.
***c (1): physical activity engaged in for pleasure (2): a particular activity (as an athletic game) so engaged in.***
When asked if it is a sport or not, people are refering to "Sport" as defined by C. Which it is clearly not.
Posted by: Joe-Unimpressed | October 19, 2007 at 09:31 AM
In the 1800's, in the US and England, gamblers of all stripes were known as "sporting" gentlemen, and gambling itself was referred to as "sport," signifying an adult corrolary to children's "games."
This doesn't have much to do with the modern conception of sports as organized physical contests, but, then, neither does poker.
Posted by: st | October 19, 2007 at 10:55 AM
It must be a sport. People die all of the time playing poker. I drink beer when I play football, softball, and other sports so that can't be a determining factor.
I think the WPT should adopt a new slogan, "I Love This Sport!"
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