A Little error in judgement

This happened a while back, but I haven't had a chance to post about it. Jonathan "Fiery Justice" Little, who had only just signed with Full Tilt Poker a few months back, was recently fired by the online gambling site. He was a FTP-sponsored pro (you may be seeing him during the ongoing NBC National Heads Up Poker Championships coverage) and he's a WPT champ (and POY). But this error in judgement proved costly. Full Tilt, which pays its Red Players to play on its site (plus sponsors them in tournaments, etc.), axed the young star because he was letting other players use his account. This was a violation of Full Tilt's contract (here is a link to a statement). Jonathan apologized on his blog. Now he can't play on Full Tilt and he basically threw away thousands and thousands of dollars that would have been a huge lift off his shoulders. There are thousands of players (and pros) who would give their right arm to never have to worry about tournament entry fees and getting paid to play. 

But now I ask you, should he have been fired? There are reports of other pros "getting caught" doing this but no such action has taken place. Does this fall under the gray area of "What happens on the Internet stays on the Internet," such as Joint Sessions and Poker Tracker? Or was this really unethical? I'd love to read your thoughts on this. I'm not sure how I feel about it just yet.

-- Chris   

Comments

[Snuffy]

I don't believe it was a staking deal where he got his buy-ins through FT for live events. He got paid an hourly rate to play online and 100% rakeback. If he makes FT's in live events he then gets paid additional money for wearing their gear.

[Chris Cosenza]

He's wearing the FT gear during the NHUPC. Don't the high-profile pros get sponsored in events on TV regardless? Not sure if we'll ever know for sure if it was a staking deal. Most sites stake their pros.

[Chi-Guy]

YES. 100% he should be fired. Internet Poker is under high high high scrutiny from the huge cheating scandal last year, to the on-line bank getting money frozen. I don't care if it is ACTUALLY unethical or not. As long as there is a reasonable argument that it is unethical, FT has the right, and should, can him.

When someone else plays using his account, he is essentially lying to FT and the FT community. That is all it takes. They have a right to choose their spokespeople, there are plenty out there. He was an idiot to cheat.

Brian

[Zerbet]

Maybe I misunderstand, but are you suggesting that firing Little was too harsh because other people are suspected of violating their contracts too, but they aren't dumb enough (or perhaps arrogant enough?) to admit it?

BTW, using Poker Tracker is definitely NOT against the Terms of Service at Full Tilt, as saying that it falls into some kind of "gray area" implies.

There may be differing philosophical opinions about using PT, but that is clearly vastly different from violating the Terms of Service or an employment/service contract.

[Chris Cosenza]

You did misunderstand. I wasn't suggesting anything regarding it being too harsh, just wondering if he should've been fired or just reprimanded for the sole fact that it's been done before without the same consequences. I haven't given my opinion on this at all, just merely stating the facts (as I've read them in numerous reports) of the situation and situations surrounding it.

As far as Poker Tracker, I think it is a gray area of ethics, but that's not why I brought it up, just giving an example of online issues, such as Joint Sessions, etc. Just because FTP doesn't frown on PT doesn't mean it's ethical. Full Tilt doesn't set my ethical standards, I do.

[Jar_o_mayo]

To me, FT has the absolute right to can him - a contract is a contract. They could also have chosen not to which would also be understandable - not earth shattering. But nice to see them take the high road, and send a message...

And ditto re the pokertracker comments... would love more discussion on the differing philosophies on use of PT...

[Jar_o_mayo]

Chris, I'm curious why you don't think the use of PT is ethical... I'm not asking to stir anything up - just to better understand your perspective on this...

[Chris Cosenza]

We've talked about this on the show before. I don't have a hard stance on this, but it's just something that I'm not comfortable with. Let's say Player A has a photographic memory and can remember hands and betting patterns as easily as his own phone number. Then there's Player B who can't even remember what he had for lunch. Player A is far more superior as far as recall, etc. But now, with Poker Tracker, Player B doesn't need to have that skill at all. Player A is being penalized because Player B is now on a level playing field with artificial intelligence. Plus, PT gives you stats on EVERY player, whether you've played with him or not. How is this fair? Shouldn't a player be able to face off against another opponent without him knowing EVERYTHING about his play without doing the homework? Can you walk into a casino and have a dossier on every player in there? Of course not. It's very unsportsmanlike if you ask me. And not exactly ethical.

It's like, why was taping the Jets practice breaking the rules for the Patriots? Nothing different there. They were just trying to get info on an opponent (and all of the teams do it, just the Pats got caught). In fact, what the Pats did was LESS offensive because at least THEY DID THE WORK to cheat. They didn't have a computer keep track of every single play, etc. for them. LOL!

But do you see where I'm coming from? This is why I called it a "gray area." Just because it exists and FT doesn't frown upon it doesn't make it perfectly acceptable to me.

[Blazman]

If Full Tilt staked all of their pros they'd be broke. Maybe some but certainly not all. I think that most just get the rakeback deal and dough if they get on TV.

-Blaz

PS. srsly, don't trip Chris. Full attention on those feet.

[Pakashkan]

I'm assuming Chris is more ethically challenged by the PokerAce HUD or something similar rather than PokerTracker itself.

PokerTracker by itself is excellent for keeping track of your wins/losses but also a good way for you to analyze your own game after the fact by looking over your big wins and losses, seeing if you're too passive or aggressive, or if maybe you lose a lot playing hands such as, oh, I don't know, Ace Ten.

I too wonder what Chris's ethical qualms are about seeing stats of his opponents. I remember him talking about it on an earlier podcast but I don't remember the details. I'm not judging, I'm just curious, since I think that falls into a whole different category than joint sessions even though he lumped them together here.

[Pakashkan]

I typed so slow that Chris answered already. I do want to note that PokerStars does not allow data mining like Chris mentions (ie. getting stats with players you don't play with) however Full Tilt does allow it. There's more gray on the Full Tilt side there, in my opinion.

[Chi-Guy]

Are we talking about Poker Tracker again? I don't think Chris brought it up. I agree with Chris (Of Course!) there are ethical issues surrounding its use. Just because Full Tilt allows it, doesn't mean that it is ethical. I don't have a problem with the software tracking your own stats. I kind of like it, actually, (although I don't use it). It is a good way to see that JK is a crappy hand to play in all forms of Hold "em.

That being said, I am going to go a little further and say that the use of Poker Tracker is unethical when it is used to mine information about other players' tendencies. If you want to learn how I play, sit down at a table with me for a while, lose some money making bad calls and folds folds, pay attention, learn how I play, and make adjustments (and hope I don't).

I have had to change my game alot because of other people's use of poker tracker and I don't like it.

Brian

[NickG]

I must be missing something but FT lets you "observe" hands and add them to your database, but:

"Plus, PT gives you stats on EVERY player, whether you've played with him or not."

it doesn't just tell you all the info on all players. Unless I don't know where that button is.

As far as this instance, this guy needed to be more responsible. Recently a good friend and I were at my house watching a hockey game when I said, "Hey want to see what Pokerstars looks like?" and I fired up a SNG. I won and asked him if he wanted to try one, since he didn't have an account. Is that unethical? I don't think so. It's like handing him a controller while playing video games online.

Now if he was doing it in the middle of a tournament and "sold" his stack to a better player, then sure, that's unethical.

Mike Matusow came out and said that he has let people use his online account (but didn't mention which). He wasn't fired as a red pro.

I think this guy should have been reprimanded and that's it.

[NickG]

Without getting in to the PT debate, any further... I'll pose this question: If you were playing live and there was a player taking notes at the table of every hand he saw, would you say what he is doing is unethical?

Raymer did it during the WSOP and not one person called him out for it. Pokertracker does the same thing. If you wanted to take the "live" paper notes, throw them in to an advanced Excel spreadsheet and crunch numbers, are you being unethical when you come back to the same live game the next day with the info you've now analyzed?

[imtoomuch4u]

I think he should have been fired for 2 reasons:

1. He got paid an hourly rate by FTP, so he was basically defrauding his employer. If my employee told me he worked 40 hours when he really worked 5, I would immediately fire him.

2. As a "red pro" people sign up to play with him, especially given his recent success on the WPT. It's not fair to the other players.

P.S. After Little was let go, apparently FTP made it clear that their pros better not do this in the future. Matusow probably isn't letting others play for him now.

[Rant2112]

He should absolutely be fired.

1) He stole from Full Tilt. Full Tilt pays him to play. Someone else playing on his account is getting $ from Full Tilt and not providing Full Tilt with the service they're paying for = stealing.

2) Players on Full Tilt need to know they are really playing with the pro when they sit with a red player.

FYI - Joint sessions aren't unethical at least on Full Tilt and Poker Stars. Again, they are explicitly allowed.

Jar_o_mayo - I was going to bite my tongue on the PT stuff but, since you asked... 8)

Poker Tracker is explicitly allowed. To me it is that simple. I don't see any reason or logic to handicap myself compared to people that are using PT. In my book it would be the same thing to forgo check-raising because it burns someone's toast.

I think some people don't want to differentiate between live and online poker. They want online to be just like live. Face it, they are different.

[Rant2112]

lol @ imtoomuch4u's response being EXACTLY like mine. I typed mine about an hour ago and forgot to type in the stupid secret letters until just now.

Great minds?

[imtoomuch4u]

I think so, Rant.

[Rasputin]

If you're in a hammering contest and one of the contestants has a physical deformity that turns his hand into a hammer is it an ethical gray area if you use a hammer?

PT alone doesn't even come close to an ethical gray area.

If you have PT running and nothing else and you play, you have to remember your opponents' play just like live.

Using a HUD can start to get into an ethical gray area. I'd equate it to speeding.

The only way you get stats on players you haven't played and if you find that unethical, don't do it. If you find it unethical and don't want your opponents to have that advantage, play on a site that doesn't allow it.

I don't mean to be jerk but if you're not using PT (or the like) to track your own play then you're just a fool.

[aces88ss]

Of course his contract should have been voided. FT makes a point of marking the games that pros are signed in on. The waiting list is always longer on those tables (at the lower limits), and the tournaments that have pros always have more players. The cheating scandals are catching up to the online game. I read a recent post from Short Stacked Shamus (one of the best blogs) that 60 minutes is working on a piece about the super accounts on Absolute. I am sure they will schedule that against the World Series to put our hobby in a bad light. Full Tilt has a reputation for aggressively attacking scandal on their site. In my opinion (for what it's worth), to do anything less than an immediate sh*tcanning would make them appear as guilty (to an uneducated public).

In previous posts, I linked poker tracker to fewer "new" players joining the fun. Once cheating scandals gain greater publicity (even minor ones), once PT use scares off a few more newbies, on-line poker becomes just another fad like Star Trek conventions in the 70's, Dungeons and Dragons in the 80's, and Beannie Babies in the 90's.

Anything that discourages new players, should be aggressively attacked. Including Poker Tracker and hand mining, and of course, even the hint of cheating.

[NickG]

Where is your evidence that the availability discourages new players?

When I first started playing online poker, I sucked. I started reading. Then improved a little. Then I started hearing about PT. The $55 price tag is what deterred me more than the fact that people were using it. I eventually bought it thinking I may use it to learn a thing or two (just like any book I had bought) but didn't expect it to be as powerful as it was.

I really find it tough to swallow that there are "newbies" out there that would be intimidating by people who use PT. I really think everyone will eventually be using PT or something similar as we move forward, unless the sites ban it (which I really can't see happening).

[rascony]

I think he should be fired, as he was obviously taking advantage of the $ per hour and rakeback deal. No real grey area there.

Can't help but join the PT argument, but PT also played a part in the outing of the AP superusers and the UB cheating scandals. I think PT helps to provide a check and balance type of system to keep sites on the level.

Sites that don't allow it might have something to hide. Not allowing heads up displays is one thing, screwing with hand histories so that you can't use PT after the fact, is a grey area on the part of the sites, imo.

[mn156]

If he violated the terms of his contract then FT is well within its right to terminate their relationship.

As far as PT goes, I'll only say that Chris' Patriot analogy is way off base. A better analogy would be comparing PT to having access to the entire NFL historical game film library.

Just because you watched every game the 2004 Packers played and studied all their tendencies doesn't mean that you are prepared to defeat the 2008 Packers next Sunday.

Most people who own it (I use a Mac so no PT for me anymore) don't know how to use it during a session anyway.

This doesn't seem like an ethical issue at all to me. PT is a product that is readily available to all, is easy to use, has the support of the online poker sites and has a forum where you can get assistance if you aren't tech savvy.

Everyone has the same OPPORTUNITY to take advantage of the product (just like everyone has the same OPPORTUNITY to read a poker book or hire a poker coach or post hands for advice in a forum). It is all about choice. You aren't required to use a performance racing bike for the Tour de France, but you probably aren't going to win it if you ride the Huffy Grandma got for you last Christmas.

[aces88ss]

Nick, god bless you, and certainly no one's mind will be changed on this subject.

BUT...

Since you asked...I play mostly $5 sit and Gos. Arguably entry level stakes. Not a week goes by without an "expert" berating someones' poor choice of starting hands. Inevitably, they start spouting statistics, telling the "less talented" player his starting hand statistics, how much he has lost, where he ranks as a player and even advising him to get a different hobby. My favorite is when the expert challenges the less talented player to play heads up at a buy in higher than he could afford. This is done either to make the less talented player feel bad, or to try to gain some table respect (or possibly it relates to Male Sex Organ size, but I digress).

Nick, I am sure that you have never and would never do this. But I am sure you have seen this. Of course PT (and the like) are used to intimidate new players.

Poker Tracker is legal. Poker Tracker works. PT is bad for poker. This is my opinion, I respect yours.

[Chris Cosenza]

mn: This is why the use of PT is an ETHICAL question and not a legal question. No one said it was illegal. People always mix up ethics, law and morality. All three are very different from one another. When a journalist accepts a gift from someone it's not illegal, but it's unethical. Are the gifts out there and readily available to all journalists? Yep, but do we take them? Not if we're good journalists. How's that for an analogy? The Patriots one was kinda lame but I was pressed for time. Anyway, I still think something doing the work for you is unethical, ESPECIALLY when the work is being done for you AT the table. Just my feeling.

[NickG]

"when the expert challenges the less talented player to play heads up at a buy in higher than he could afford."

IMHO, the less talented player is the one doing the berating. And I usually challenge them to heads up matches. 90% of the time they never show up. If they do they go broke.

I play $25 6-max cash and $6 or $13 SH SNGs. I know the player you are referring to, but there isn't enough of them to scare off the 10k or so other players playing poker on that site. Just because one person has an issue with anger, or doesn't know how to deal with losing to someone who's playing 80/0/1 doesn't mean they represent the majority of PT users.

Even when people flame me after I check call them with tptk and turn two pair to beat their jacks or whatever, I almost never open my yap unless I see it effecting table dynamics. If it does, I either stack them or try to fuel the fire by getting other folks involved in trying to stack them.

I think MN made the best argument I've heard for either side so far:

"Everyone has the same OPPORTUNITY to take advantage of the product (just like everyone has the same OPPORTUNITY to read a poker book or hire a poker coach or post hands for advice in a forum). It is all about choice. You aren't required to use a performance racing bike for the Tour de France, but you probably aren't going to win it if you ride the Huffy Grandma got for you last Christmas."

[NickG]

Oh and as far as using SharkScope to make fun of someone, I almost never do it unless they're talking trash and think they are the next poker prodigy. Then I open up SharkScope, give them a search, and more often than not they are stuck a couple hundred over a few hundred SNGs. The best, however, is when they play 75/40/0 and dwindle down to 10BB, limp in and flop a pair, only to have their all-in called by Ax and the ace turns. Then they are observing and open their trap. It happened a few nights ago, and I sharkscoped the guy. After a few minutes of silence from the player, I let the table know what he was stuck for. More than $11k playing an avg. entry fee of $5 SNGs.

Now THAT was funny.

[aces88ss]

Nick, with great respect...

Wouldn't you be better served to mark this player, try to play at tables he is at, commiserate, even acknowledge that you got lucky. Try to make him feel he got unlucky and the next time he plays, it will all turn around. The last thing I would want to do is make fun of him and have him leave the game permanently. Money is not important to him, he plays for fun, or he is working to improve his game (or he sucks). Either way, I would like to play at his table every day.

Nick, it's your style of play and I am sure you had a wonderful time (something very important); But I would rather you treated a player with those stats as the treasure that he is.

[NickG]

aces,

That's why I usually don't say anything. But if he's going off on someone who I think is another asset to the table, that I want to win money from as well, I will open my trap. And yes, I usually try and get them at all the tables they are at as well. But for the most part (and I only run in to these players on occassion, obviously not as often as you) they are the type of player that ends up going broke before the next time I see them.

The guys that have complete disregard for money are the uber-aggro players who double and triple up early and then use their stacks as a weapon. Those are the cash cows that I really don't say anything to. And if someone starts berating them, I usually try and calm down the person doing the finger pointing by supporting the play of the cow.

[aces88ss]

Fair enough Nick. Yeah, I play mostly HORSE, Omaha 8 or RAZZ; so I do run into the same folks lots more often.

[Honest but Fair]

Nick you should not tell some they are stuck on Sharkscope you are just driving away money from the game.

It is simply the WORST play you can make- far worse than calling allin on a gutshot.

[NickG]

Yea I normally don't tell them they're stuck. 99% of the time I just throw a note on them with how much and how they've been running, if it warrants it. I agree with you HbF about how it scares good money away, that's why I refrain from it. But if the guy busts out and was being a nuisance, it makes for a good laugh at the table.

[Jar_o_mayo]

I guess I opened a can_o_worms here with my PT question.

My perspective is that it's a tool that anyone can use that helps me get an edge on understanding how people play. I use it to track my play and image at the table I'm on, and it helps me quantify in some way how my opponents play. Most often it simply supports my notes that I take on a player as I'm playing them - and when I see someone do something unusual, help me make a better guess on what they might be doing. It really doesn't do the work for me (unless I'm multitabling, which I suck at - and even then I'm more focused on playing ABC poker vs. making reads and playing against someone's "stats").

I play Stars so I can't datamine, and I totally understand and agree with the ethical issues around capturing data on games I'm not actually playing.

I suspect that many of the people here who don't support it may not understand what it is. PT does NOT provide the "answer" - it just helps better understand how a person generally plays pre and post flop, how they may play certain ranges, how many hands they play, how aggressive they are, etc. It's based on a limited sample, so the value of the data is somewhat positive but still limited. Ultimately it enhances whatever reads I may have already. It doesn't give me the magic answer to "call that bet", for example.

More importantly, I can use it on all my hands to tell me how profitable certain hands are for me, how profitable I am in certain positions with certain hand ranges, where I've got holes, replaying hands to see what I may have done wrong, etc.

And no offense, but I just don't buy PT being a stick that discourages people from playing poker. It's the people who look up someone's record on OPR / Sharkscope / etc. and then tells that individual that they suck. The same player would verbally abuse the other player for playing XX badly, etc. That problem and these people will never go away, and is totally independent of whether PT exists or not.

I never comment on someone's stats - even when I see some player in a micro-MTT blabbing about his WSOP cash, and how he's won thousands and such. Just chuckle and play on and try to take his money... or point out his latest horrible play if his chat is bugging me. Or side with the worse player by intentionally chatting something dumb so you look like the noob. Or flatter him with some chat, then chat him into a corner and ask him why a pro would be playing $3 stakes with the rest of us donks. No reason to let everyone else know how bad someone is...

[Lambanana]

I don't think its fair to say tracking programs don't keep players away, because I am one of those players. If I walked into a casino and someone told me all the players at every table knew my playing history and how I played hands, I wouldn't play. If that person then told me that he'd give me the histories of every player for $50, I'd think I was being hustled. A good game is full of fish. Seems to me that A.I. programs will scare the fish off, and drive those who play out more quickly... How is this good for the game?

[Christopher Cosenza]

I love this discussion. This is what poker blogs and forums are all about. I had no idea a little comment about "gray area" and PT would do this. I guess it's just what School of Thought you subscribe to: If your feeling is "If it's out there it's fair game" then that's cool. But there are a lot of things out there that aren't fair or ethical, so I can't lump myself in that group. I'm not condemning anyone for using it, etc. I just don't like it and want to get better because of my brain, not my computer's.

[NickG]

Lambanana
"then told me that he'd give me the histories of every player for $50,"

Unfortunately you're mistaken on what PokerTracker does. If you pay them $50 you don't automatically get all of the hand histories of everyone in the online poker realm. You can only track the hands of players you play against, and in the case of Full Tilt the tables that you yourself observe.

I do think it's important to state that if someone offered me their database I would decline. That, I think, goes against the original purpose of the software.

So your analogy should actually have been:

If I walked into a casino and someone told me all of the players at the table that I was to sit at knew my playing history because I had played with them I wouldn't play since I didn't bother to keep track of their tendencies for my own reference.

[Erwin Blonk]

An argument for PokerTracker (that might have been made already, haven't read everything yet) is that someone with some programming experience can easily write the same software in a limited but effective version. If you keep to PS and FT and keep a few relevant stats (I'd go for VP$IP, pre-flop raising and profit/loss stats), you should be ready in a day or two. That gives such a person an edge at poker over the rest from a non-poker skill. Even a non-programmer with a bit of programming talent could learn enough in a week to write this.

PT is for recording your own hands and if you want to, you can pool hand histories with other players or write software to record hands you don't play in. The latter, again, a prerogative of the programmers among us.

So, seeing that PT functionality can be created, with an overseeable amount of work, by a small subset of people (programmers and those with the skill and willingness to learn a bit of programming), is it unfair that there is such a program? I find that there is a big difference between PT and PokerEdge, PokerSherlock etc.

I use PT Omaha, mainly for post-game analysis of my own play and profit/loss numbers (I'm a sucker for any form a math, I look at numbers and calculations like Scott at shiny objects)

[Erwin Blonk]

"want to get better because of my brain, not my computer's."

And if your brain is able to build the software? Or, at a live table, you write down what happens and calculate on the fly (believe me, I could do that, for VP$IP and pre-flop raising, which is enough for my type of play). All it takes is two sheets, one for the rough notes, the other for the calculations.

Let me put it this way, I sit at your table and was taking such notes (my memory for these things is not good enough to do this without note-taking), would you think it's unethical?

[lambanana]

Nick G,
I understand what you mean. But new players have no idea what these programs do specifically. (I didn't until reading this thread.) While playing online, I assume you have no idea which opponents are using what programs. Just the perception that some players have access to stored computer generated info that a casual player does not have will keep new players away, in my opinion. As an aside, if every player used PT, wouldn't the weaker players get driven out even more quickly? As I said before, how can any of this be good for the game?

[Rant2112]

Does anyone have a problem with using PT just to track your play and go over it later? I'm especially interested in Chris' answer to this one. I can understand better why some people object to the heads-up display part. PT is invaluable for tracking your play, without any HUD.

Is it unethical to take notes at a live poker table? If not why is PT NOT OK?

Online poker has a lot of issues. Fortunately it works out OK overall. PT should be among the least of our worries. I worry much more about collusion.

[mn156]

Rant,

You forgot to add that PT makes filing your taxes correctly much easier. I am curious how those without PT track their session wins and losses.

[NickG]

"But new players have no idea what these programs do specifically."
Anyone knew to the game, that wants to be successful and has access to the internet will eventually start researching the net for information on the game. If they even sniff the major poker forums they are bound to find out what PokerTracker is. It took me about 3 months of playing online before finding it. After a few months of debating, I finally downloaded the demo. Haven't looked back since.

"While playing online, I assume you have no idea which opponents are using what programs."
No you don't, but you can get a pretty good idea of who does. A few criteria that usually tips me to somebody who's probably using PT or PokerOffice are:

a) Players who are winning
b) Players who give your raises/3bets respect
c) Players who do not play roughly 10-30% (max) of their hands
d) Players multitabling

Any of those don't guarantee that they are playing with software, but the chances are much better than those players who:

a) limp in to 75% of the pots they play
b) have no regard for position and hand selection
c) are buying in short to one table (not for $10 flat, but for $12.34 or something) because they're bankroll is short
d) talk trash when they get "sucked out on" by one of the better players at the table

Again, none of those mean that they aren't using PT or PO.

If somebody knows about PT or PO and doesn't use it that's completely their choice. But they are seriously hurting their chances at playing consistent, winning online poker.

I really don't think that playing one table, microstakes, online poker will improve a player's live game much unless he/she uses all of the tools at their disposal.

Even if you do not use the HUD in PT, everyone can greatly benefit from analyzing their data post-session.

[Chris Cosenza]

I have no problem with PT for your own play/stats. In theory you could keep your records by hand, so a tool that does that for you isn't unethical because that's simple technology, like a calculator. But a tool that tells you how your opponents play and their stats is unethical because you couldn't follow all of these cats around and take notes. In fact, I would use PT for my own stats if I could, but I can't because I have a Mac. Obviously from my earlier remarks I'm opposed to you being given "secret" info without doing the work to deserve to know if I'm a donk or not. Imagine if we used this blog to post all of your stats/tendencies. Would you approve of that? Would Scott like it if I said offdeadline tends to bluff on the river when he misses his draws? Or willhopper see 65% of flops and c-bets 85% of the time when he raises preflop? mn156 is overly aggressive on the turn if he has position and his opponent checks; and Snuffy likes to slowplay his monsters. Of course I can't guarantee this stuff is correct, and it's not EXACTLY what PT provides, but that doesn't matter. This is essentially what PT does, and there may be software that tells you this stuff eventually. PT is available to anyone who wants to buy it and those stats/tendencies can be made available to you. THAT I have a problem with, but for your own stats? Sure, why not?

[aces88ss]

Nick, MN and Rant..I 1st posted saying that no one's mind would be changed by continuing this thread once again. So, it is a debate for the sake of debating. Gun control, abortion rights, who's the better Captain, Kirk or Picard...It's all the same. Everyone has an opinion, and in their mind, they are right (It's Kirk, BTW).

Keeping track of personal stats, tax purposes...No problem, but that is a secondary benefit to what PT advertises it's advantages. If that were all it did, I would certainly have no problem with it. However, hand mining and instant analysis while playing at the very least violates the ethics of one player to a hand. The stats amassed and the analysis of them is beyond the ability of any single player. It also allows the analysis of a few hands that would have been mucked at the showdown and the actual cards played would not have been shown. (not all hands that make it to the showdown, but under certain circumstances, some hands are available to PT that are not shown).

OK, for this next discussion point, I will freely admit that i I think too much about this, I will only play with a tin oil helmet... What about the next generation of computer assisted play? Is it beyond the range of conception that someone smarter than me is working on a large data base of hand mines, one that a player could join, add his data base to the large base, and take advantage of all data in that collective? The collective would need a large memory capacity, but once linked, the individual member of the hive would only need enough memory to access the data about the other 9 players at his table. And once that live link to the collective has been established, is it beyond the range of possibility that if two members of the hive were connected, could they share the hands they are playing live (at the least share their hole cards for more complete analysis?

It is an amazing world. I was born the first year that Russia launched a basketball into space that beeped (sputnik). Those basketballs are now sending live color HD images of the surface of Mars. That progression is not a miracle, someone smarter than me just decided they wanted to do it. Maybe a grey area of ethics is not the real concern. Maybe it's the slippery slope.

I take 7 and 5/8 hat size, and I look very dapper in a fedora.

[mn156]

aces,

" It also allows the analysis of a few hands that would have been mucked at the showdown and the actual cards played would not have been shown. (not all hands that make it to the showdown, but under certain circumstances, some hands are available to PT that are not shown)."

Did you know that you can click on the "Last Hand" button on each table at FT and see cards mucked at showdown? I do it all the time when I win a pot. That has nothing to do with PT. I also agree that arguing for the sake of arguing is silly, iI just thought you might not of known of this feature on FT itself.

[aces88ss]

I do know of this feature. I use it almost every hand when I am close (win or lose). But I only play one $5 tourney at a time, occasionally 2 $2 games. If you are playing 4 games (as has been suggested PT helps someone to do), I would venture to say that this feature is a huge asset that you could not take advantage of if you were playing 4 games live without computer assistance.

MN, I am curious, if the tin foil hat suggestion of a possible large collective of data were made available, would you take advantage of it? It would not be against the rules, wouldn't you be "foolish" not to take advantage of this opportunity?

[mn156]

aces,

I play 6 tables of NL$100 on a MAC right now. I used PA HUD when I had a Windows machine, but I never datamined tables that I wasn't playing. I don't think you will ever get enough hands on anyone to get a true sense of how they play (I'd say you need at least 10k hands to eliminate variance) and if you do, they will most likely be a regular with pretty mundane stats.

I also find it interesting that many players who use a HUD will make stack sized decisions when they only have a sample size of a few hundred or even a few thousand hands. Seeing that a player is a 40/20/2 player over 40 hands might mean he is a bit loose or is getting hit by the deck or he is trying to play a lot of pots in position against the table donator. A HUD will never be able to tell you that.

I don't need a HUD to figure out who plays 80% of all flops and who plays 10%. I also take notes of specific villain actions, which I have found to be much more useful than a HUD.

I guess the main reason I have no problem with it is that I would estimate that 90% of HUD users don't know how to properly interpret the stats they are viewing.

For example, I raise about 15% of the hands I play. However, I probably raise closer to 25% of the hands I play from the CO or BTN and 5% of the hands I play from the SB or UTG. So most HUDbot users aren't going to assign a proper pre-flop to me and they will be the ones (on average) making the bigger post flop mistakes.

I'd also estimate that nobody is consistently datamining below NL$100 because the player bases at the micro levels are ever changing and there is not enough of a profit to made by doing it, so most recreational players who enjoy the micro stakes really don't have much to be concerned about.

Full Disclosure: I will buy either PT3 or Hold em Manager when they are available for the Mac. They are tools that are very useful for tracking tax info and analyzing my play. I am undecided as whether I will play with HUD (especially since my winrate has increased since I've been without it).

[mn156]

aces,

I just realized that I did not directly answer your questions. No, I would not pay for a huge database. First , there is no way to know how accurate it truly is and second, players playing styles change over time. Anything data older than 2-3 months on established players is going to be of limited use.

To answer your second question, I guess if I played say NL$600 for a living then I would be much more motivated to get stats on the better players.

[aces88ss]

I agree that people who play at my low level do not have anything to be concerned about. Just discussion points. I would be very curious to hear what your win rate would be at 2 tables at a time vs 6, but that is a different discussion.

Money is relative. I am retired, and only play at a level that is challenging and fun, but NEVER risky. Unless you are very comfortably well off, I would think you would be more concerned about the next generation of computer assisted poker programming than I. Unless of course you believe that their abilities and possibilities are as advanced as they will ever get.

One more Tin Hat concern...Is someone smarter than me working on computer assisted, multi accounting, data sharing bots? I am sure they do not exist, but I wonder if anyone is working on them, and if PT and HUD make their efforts easier.

god, I'll never get to sleep tonight...There is a monster under my bed

[mn156]

aces,

I'm certain my win rate playing 2 tables is higher than my winrate playing 6; however, my hourly earn is much higher playing 6 vs 2.

I also play poker as a hobby, which is why I stopped at the NL$100 and NL$200 levels. When I played higher, it just wasn't fun. I already have enough stress in my life and use poker as a stress relief.

As for your final "Tin Hat" concern, the things that you seem to be most concerned about are not currently allowed by any of the major sites. There is software that is banned by the major sites and you will get your account locked if you are caught using it (and the sites can check your PC to determine this via the T&Cs that you agreed to when you signed up).

I believe that the sites want to provide a "clean" game (they realize it's in their best long term interest to do so) and will not allow tools that permit a player to make a decision without making a human judgment.

[aces88ss]

ahhh, so it's not possible, and is never going to be possible. Now I feel better. An old man who can't get to sleep is an ugly thing (on many levels)

[mn156]

"ahhh, so it's not possible, and is never going to be possible. Now I feel better. An old man who can't get to sleep is an ugly thing (on many levels)"

Don't sleep yet. I never said never. No one knows what the future holds, but as far as the present is concerned, I don't think you need to be worried.

No one has created a bot that can do more that slightly better than break even at micro limit hold em. Computers can play chess quite well, but can't play NLHE near a professional level. Technology one day might make playing online poker obsolete (or at least unprofitably), but that day is not yet here or on the immediate horizon.

[aces88ss]

well crap, now I'm going to miss my afternoon nap.

And, BTW...playing 6 tables at a time is stress relief??? What do you do when you don't play poker...Inner city High School Teacher?

[NickG]

Should I even share this? But I think aces is afraid of services like this: http://www.felttable.com/

Sadly, this isn't something that an e-mail to a friend with your hand histories from PokerStars attached can't replace.

A guy like this is really what we need to stop. http://www.gamedaydog.com/poker/macpokerpro.html

This guy has no idea what his actions could do to the game, and how much it is breaking TOCs. Why did he even admit to playing on FT? Probably because he's dumb.

I don't know about PT's terms of service, but this seems to be a little "unethical" as well.

http://ptdatabase.com/

or

http://tinyurl.com/5abs8a

Apparently, PT says that it's up to you what you do with your data, but it is against PokerStars ToS to use data that is not your own. There is no way for PS to monitor that, so it's really about your conscience at that point.
http://tinyurl.com/5rnfp9

[NickG]

Should I even share this? But I think aces is afraid of services like this: www.felttable.com

Sadly, this isn't something that an e-mail to a friend with your hand histories from PokerStars attached can't replace.

A guy like this douche, is really what we need to stop. www.gamedaydog.com/poker/macpokerpro.html

This guy has no idea what his actions could do to the game, and how much it is breaking TOCs. Why did he even admit to playing on FT? Probably because he's dumb.

I don't know about PT's terms of service, but this seems to be a little "unethical" as well.

ptdatabase.com

or

http://www.pokertracker.com/forum/archives/PT2/viewtopic.php?t=1695&highlight=

Apparently, PT says that it's up to you what you do with your data, but it is against PokerStars ToS to use data that is not your own. There is no way for PS to monitor that, so it's really about your conscience at that point.
http://www.pokertracker.com/forums/archives/PT2/viewtopic.php?t=22853&highlight=

[Rant2112]

aces88ss - I am quite sure there will be, or already are, bots that automatically share databases and even hole cards between players at the same table. There is no way for the sites to stop sufficiently clever and motivated cheaters. Really, this wouldn't be very hard. This is against the rules though so I would never think of doing it.

Again, my main point is that PT and the HUD are EXPLICITLY allowed by the site.

They are part of the online game. I'm not going to handicap myself. I think this is as silly as not check-raising because some people don't like it.

There are things that the poker site's software does for you. It shows the pot size, right? Do you have a problem with that? What if the site's software put the HUD stats on every table for everyone, not just the players using PT?

[NickG]

So I guess http://ptdatabase.com isn't breaking any ToS (FT or PT) but is gaming the system.

I found this juicy tidbit on the FullTilt forum from a FT rep:

"Initially, these programs allowed you to download your own hand histories into them, which in turn allowed you to examine the tendencies of your opponents, and analyze your own play. When used in this manner, we see nothing wrong with them whatsoever.

However, this program, and some others, now come preloaded with several hundred thousand hand histories that the developers have obtained in one of two ways: either by buying them outright from other players, or by using a technique called "data mining" on various poker sites. Needless to say, we certainly find the use of these programs in this manner to be unethical: players have access to information for which they really have not paid (in the form of rake, and time at the tables with the vast majority of the players in the hand histories)."

What programs is the rep talking about? PokerEdge? Doesn't that break their ToS? I guess this post could be out of date (2006).

http://pokerforums.fulltiltpoker.com/online-poker-play12354.html&highlight=

[aces88ss]

Rant, and everyone else...this is my last posting about this (unless I am personally addressed again).

With great respect...PT is not illegal.

PT can help someone's game. It can cut thousands of hands from your learning curve.

PT can make you a more competitive player.

But, for me. I would be ashamed to admit that I needed computer assistance to be competitive. I am an old man. I learned poker at my daddy's knee (other bad habits at other joints). The game my daddy taught me is the same game I want to play. On-line play is a godsend for people who want to improve their game, as well as people who just want to exercise their minds. At low level buy ins, the on-line game is very similar to what I want to play. It is great or me.

At higher levels, worrying about bots and collusion and HUD's and sharing accounts and super accounts and team play and boiler room self-collusion and RCG's programmed for action and...well, you get the idea...Whatever the next generation of computer cheats can think of... This all changes the game into something that my daddy didn't teach me. If that's the game you want to play, I will give you the respect you deserve. In order to be competitive in that world, a player probably need computer assistance. But, in the long run, I wonder if even that is enough. You will always need to stay on top of the next available computer asset that will give you an edge (or just keep you even with others playing at your level). PT is the tip of the iceberg. 1/3 of an iceberg is visible. I am not as much concerned about PT as I make it sound, but I wonder if it is the other 2/3rds of the iceberg that wil sink the online poker ship.

Rant, god bless you, play your game, win and go nuts! I am on your side, and I will root for you and the Cubs to my dieing day. Except for an occasional AIPS or Chimps tournament, You and I do not play the same game. My church league slow pitch softball team and the Cubs do not play the same game. In the game I play, I do not need poker tracker, nor do i need a batting helmet to be copetitive.

[Chris Cosenza]

Please remember that I said PT was in a gray area of ethics, and not legality. Clearly this is a gray area (funny that something can be so clear and yet gray) because everyone on here is going back and forth about it.

[NickG]

"Please remember that I said PT was in a gray area of ethics"
Just like the Church of Scientology, or other cults! I kid, I kid... ;)

[Erwin Blonk]

"who's the better Captain, Kirk or Picard"

Benjamin Sisco can look at you like he'll rip your head off without missing a breath. He can beat Kirk and Picard in hand-to-hand combat. Sisco is the best.

[NickG]

Picard wins hands down. Not only because he ended up becoming Xavier, or the fact that Generation was the best series overall (Deep Space 9 blew!). But his supporting team was way better than the original Trek. Data, Troi, Dr. Crusher, Riker, Worf and LaForge. And who can forget everyone's favorite ensign turned geek/poker blogger... Wesley Crusher!

[Ringo6624]

Love the show. Wanted to get that out of the way.

#1) He definitely should have been fired. I think it's a grey area only because of FTP's deal w/ cardrunners which followed immediately after and they are known for doing just what he did.

#2) I am SO freaking sick of you railing on PokerTracker. Not only is it explicitly allowed by most if not all the major poker sites (and at least PokerStars acknowledges that they look for banned software), but if you are not using it, you are losing money.

PokerTracker by itself really only serves you to review your play and that of your opponents AFTER the fact. PT and even the new PT3 are too slow with a database of any meaningful size for you to go in and see the stats you'd need in order to help you make a decision during a hand.

It is EXTREMELY powerful to go back and review your play and see where the leaks in your game are. It allows you to patch them much more quickly than you could otherwise.

What you really seem to have a beef with are the HUD programs that lay stats out on the table during play. Again, these are explicitly allowed by the sites. They are not allowed just because there is nothing they can do to stop them, they allow them because they say it is no different that what you can do in taking notes about players in a B&M casino.

So, to review:

Poker sites feel that PT + HUD are legal and valuable tools for their players.

PT is an astoundingly good tool to review your play.

If you choose not to use tools that are available to make yourself a better player then I don't know what to say. Most all of us are trying to get better by any legal means.

[Erwin Blonk]

"Wesley Crusher!"

I'm a Wesley fan, and a Wil Wheaton fan. Have you heard his Gnomodex 4.0 talk (free download from ITconversations.com)? If not, you should.

I love DS9 because of it's crew: darker, sinister sometimes, and almost all pretty much dysfunctional. The station always had a feeling of despair to me. Favorite characters across all series: Spock, Wesley, Q, Quark and Garak. Garak, to quote the Make It So podcast, is camp as christmas and sinister as f@ck (sorry, had to fool potential censorship bots).

If I had to choose a fictional commander to follow into combat, I'd pick Sisko, even though my chances of survival would be higher with Kirk or Picard.
Between Kirk and Picard, it's Picard. I never liked Kirk anyway.

I have to say I've always been more of a book-trekkie than a TV or movie trekkie. The two best books are The 34rd Rule and A Stitch In Time, both DS9 books.

For pokerbuddies, I choose Data, Wil Wheaton and PokerTracker (how's that for getting back to the topic).

[NickG]

Well done Erwin.

[Christopher Cosenza]

Again, Ringo, I'm not railing on PT and I'm not saying it's illegal. PT was brought up casually in my post as "gray area" and as I stated before, it IS a gray area of ETHICS as evidenced by the 60+ posts on here of people arguing for and against it. If something is legal that doesn't make it ethical. We all have different levels of ethics, I suppose, or at least what we think is ethical. PT, if used for something OTHER than keeping track of your OWN stats, is unethical in my mind. Not railing, just opinion on ethics.

Glad you love the show.