How to Stack/Tilt Someone 101

After tripling my buy-in in Stud/8 last night I decided to buy-in short at a $.10-$.25 NLHE 6-handed table. A few orbits had passed and I felt I had built a tight table image, so I thought I might be able to parlay that into some stealing opportunities, etc. But when you're playing at these stakes people either aren't paying enough attention or they just can't lay down any hand, as you will soon see. I decided to mix it up UTG and here's the hand, (I changed the names and eliminated the inconsequential info):

*** HOLE CARDS ***
Dealt to willhopper [5♠ 4♠]
willhopper raises to $0.85 <---- Again, I have a tight image.
JustLooking calls $0.85
stubdog calls $0.75
At this point I decide if the cards come high I can represent them, and if they come low I will hit.
*** FLOP *** [J♣ 3♠ A♥]
stubdog checks
willhopper bets $1.25 <---- Standard C-bet.
JustLooking raises to $2.50 <---- Hmmm, smells like an ace looking to see where he is.
stubdog folds
willhopper calls $1.25 <---- With implied odds to a wheel how can I fold for a min-raise?
*** TURN *** [J♣ 3♠ A♥] [3♦]
willhopper checks <---- If he bets I'm done with this hand. I'm hoping the paired board slows him.
JustLooking has 15 seconds left to act
JustLooking checks <---- Has to be a weak ace or a jack. My plan is to steal it on the river if I miss.
*** RIVER *** [J♣ 3♠ A♥ 3♦] [2♦] <---- BINGO, BANGO, BONGO!
willhopper bets $14.30, and is all in <---- This looks like a bluff/steal, no?
JustLooking has 15 seconds left to act
JustLooking calls $10.25, and is all in <---- Ka-ching! Guess I couldn't have stolen from this guy after all.
*** SHOW DOWN ***
willhopper shows [5♠ 4♠] a straight, Five high
JustLooking mucks [A♠, 10♥] <---- Doesn't he know he shouldn't play The Cosenza against its namesake?
willhopper wins the pot ($26.90) with a straight, Five high
JustLooking is sitting out

But here's the best part of the hand: the ensuing chat, followed by another hand a little later vs. this rube.

JustLooking: &@@&in sick
JustLooking: u r pathic (sic)
JustLooking: 5 4
JustLooking: for real
JustLooking: you suck sooo bad
JustLooking: that was the most oathic (sic, he meant pathetic) beat i have ever lost to in my life
willhopper: ur money tastes like chicken
JustLooking: u are sad
willhopper: no i am happy
JustLooking: i will get it right back soon
willhopper: from me?
JustLooking: yur by far the worst player i have had the pleasure to play against
willhopper: actually it was my pleasure
willhopper: and u actually thought ur A-10 was good
JustLooking: with the &$## u morons have been playing
JustLooking: i just had to see
willhopper: and u called ME pathic? Or did you mean pathetic?
*** HOLE CARDS ***
Dealt to willhopper [9♥ T♣]
willhopper raises $0.85
willhopper: here is ur chance to get ur money back
JustLooking has 15 seconds left to act
JustLooking calls $0.75

*** FLOP *** [2♦ J♣ Q♥]
JustLooking bets $0.75
willhopper raises to $2.05
JustLooking: lol
JustLooking has 15 seconds left to act
JustLooking folds
JustLooking: u suck
willhopper: lol
JustLooking: muted
JustLooking stands up
willhopper: aw, i'm gonna miss him

And that is how you put someone on tilt.

This is the type of hand that used to always happen to me: calling off my whole stack with just top pair only to see the other guy turn over a hand I could never put him on. I've stopped calling off all my chips with marginal hands and my bankroll thanks me for it.

-- Chris

Comments

[MacAnthony]

I know this was posted for entertainment value, but there are a few points of logic that bother me.

Point 1. If you really do think his flop minraise was a weak ace "seeing where he was at", then the correct move would have been to 3bet the flop to get him to fold the better hand instead of calling with your gutshot. Apparently you got off well with your small flop bet to give you the right odds with your 4:1 shot.

Point 2. On the turn, you say you want to represent a hand and try and steal it on the river if you miss presumably because you don't think you will get called, but you hit so you instead try and bet it like a steal because you think it would get called? One of these wasn't gonna work. As it turns out, it seems to be the missed bluff attempt that would have failed.

But I digress. Please carry on with the tomfoolery. ;)

[sabinjo]

Best line I've heard in a looong time.......willhopper: ur money tastes like chicken....awesome.

[Rasputin]

There's no such thing as a tight image at 25NL. There just aint enough people paying attention.

[Lee]

willhopper: ur money tastes like chicken

HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA

[Lee]

Oh, and you do realize that the respect you paid these players by changing their names in your hand history is thrown out the window when you POST A SCREEN CAP WITH THEIR REAL NAMES, right?

[MAB]

That was awesome......

[Paboo]

LOL... I've used the chix line before:

*yum* *yum* Tastes like chicken.

[Snuffy]

I agree with Mac and Rasputin. There is no such thing as a tight image at NL25, especially 6-max. People by and large just don't pay attention to that stuff. Trying to bluff in NL25 is the same as lighting money on fire. You hit on the end and shoved. Seeing htat he called shows that a bluff just will not work. I like the river bet shove though. That lime works very well in this game. Amazing how light you get called.

[NickG]

RE: Tight at 6-max $25 tables? I can give you a list of players on Pokerstars playing ~15/2.5/1

As far as lines, there was one in HOH Cash Vol. 2 where he says his favorite is,

"It's Tuesday. I always get lucky on Tuesdays." or something to that nature.

[Rant2112]

"JustLooking stands up" = Chris fails.

Tilting someone is OK but only if they stay around. I guess it is maybe OK if they are better than you.

[NickG]

Rant... did you mean JustCooking? Hehe

[Chi-Guy]

Nice overbet against the donk. Nothing like putting $!0 into a $6 pot. Easy fold but people who make those calls tend to talk alot in the chat box.

He went on tilt and played another table. Nice job. Kinda reminds me of me in my younger days. It would have been a different story if he would have had pocket jacks.

Brian

[Chris Cosenza]

Yeah, I forgot to take the guy's name out of the screen grab. I wondered if anyone would pick up on that. It's OK, he was being such a jerk he doesn't deserve my protection.

MacAnthony: Calls are always made to steal on later streets. I called with the intention of spiking a deuce, and if I didn't and got a check behind then I would try to steal. And yes, my bluff wouldn't have worked, which I clearly pointed out. A lesson to be learned no doubt, but I got lucky and didn't need to bluff thankfully.

[MacAnthony]

Raising is still a better move if that was actually your read.

If you thought a steal would work on the street prior, then you should have bet for value instead of overbetting, was my point.

IMO

All really irrelevant, though, as I didn't actually assume this was a strategy post.

[Ranger1989]

ur money tastes like chicken......I can't stop laughing.....That is freaking non-stop funny. LOL...LOL

[Chris Cosenza]

Right Mac, I was just posting for fun. Though, if we want to have a strategy conversation I'd be glad to continue with that since it drives traffic!

[mn156]

Chris, are you sure you want a strategy conversation on that hand :)

Here's the mistakes you made:

1) Raising 54s out of position at a table where you are likely to get several callers. If you were on the button and raising up limpers, fine, but you will be check folding about 60% of all flops. No way 54s is profitable over the long term here.

2) Leading with a gut shot is fine, but calling a raise on an Ace high board is pretty bad. You don't even beat a stone cold bluff (you only beat 34). You don't have odds to hit your over 10-1 shot and you are playing out of position so you might not be able to get villain all in even if you hit.

3) Thinking that you are going to push anyone (let alone the many bad players who populate NL$25) off an A with a river bluff is horrible. Your plan was to bet the river to push him off. It is pretty obvious he isn't folding (especially since he called when your money card hit). His thought process on the turn probably is, "Well, the board pairing just gave both of us a J kicker, no point building a pot just to chop."

4) If you plan is to try to push him off an A, then shoving the flop is the best spot. You can credibly represent AK or better and he will need a strong hand (unlikely based upon his play so far) to make the call. In my opinion, your fold equity is highest on the flop unless you have a specific read. Once you call the flop, he thinks his A is good.

5) After you hit your miracle and stack him, you chase him off. Why not agree with him or say you were due or feeling lucky? If he is bad you want him to rebuy (preferably over and over). I almost never type anything in chat unless I want the guy to leave or I want someone else at the table to read it.

Anyway, I refrained from saying anything until now because you genuinely seem happy about the outcome of the hand, but realize that when you complain about guys always chasing and hitting their 4 outers without odds against you that you did exactly that here.

Oh well, I just reread that and it seems (unintentionally) harsh, but it is intended only to analyze your play on that hand.

[Chris Cosenza]

mn156: Thanks for the comments, I always welcome your input. Actually I didn't chase him off, there was a significant time difference between the hand in question and when he finally left (I didn't think it necessary to list all of the hands in the interim). He did rebuy two more times, though I was only the benefactor once.

I'm not saying what I type here is right; merely it was my thought-process then, and how I feel now.

I haven't done the math, nor will I, but I think implied odds make my call of his minraise on the flop quite correct. I stacked him and got maximum value for my $1.25 call. You make that call seem like I thought my 54 was good there. Obviously I'm trying to stack this guy and this is the hand to do it with when I know he has Ax there. I know I said I planned on stealing the hand on the river but I'm not so sure I would've pulled the trigger or not. Even so, I still think a shove or big bet on the end says I have a strong ace (the problem is it says it to a skilled player, not a donk).

The pairing of the board slowed us both down, but when he didn't bet behind me I knew he was scared, too. I actually thought he had a jack there and was seeing where he was in the hand. When I called I thought I was sending the message that I had an ace. Luckily I hit the deuce, and it was SOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO SWEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEET to hit a four-outer. You're right, I do complain when people hit their two-, three- and four-outers on me because I almost always get it in good at these levels. Can you recall any post of mine where I hit a four-outer or less? So when it happens it's rare, not the norm.

This hand, however, was played just as poorly by this guy and he gave me that chance. I usually don't give them that chance, as their suckout usually comes on an all-in when they are bluffing or woefully behind.

As for raising with 5-4 OOP, yes, I know it's not exactly optimal, but I prefaced the post by saying I was flush with chips and feeling frisky, plus I was bored with not playing any hands. There was NO WAY anyone could put me on that hand if it hit, which was my intention. Plus, if I indeed got many callers I would've had the pot odds to proceed with a draw.

I looked at it as I could win two ways: by representing what came out or by actually hitting what came out. My biggest mistake was thinking they were paying attention to my tight image and that I could get a rube to fold his weak ace for $20.

Thanks for the critique. I always love to learn by reading others' POV.

[mn156]

If he re-bought two more times then I like your chat play. :)

Regarding implied odds, you mentioned that you bought in short, so I assumed that effective stacks were well below 100bbs, which is why I really did not like your play. If stacks were 200 bbs or more deep, then your play is not that bad (except for being OOP). When you call hoping to hit a 10-1 shot, you need to stack him a pretty high % of the time when you hit to make the play profitable. Getting paid when you hit a draw OOP is not an easy task.

Image is somewhat overrated online (especially in prime time at NL$50 and below) because unless you have evidence that someone is paying attention and giving you respect, then it's probably best to assume that your opponents are level 1 thinkers.

Anyway, I enjoy analyzing hands. Sometimes I think I learn more by analyzing hands then I do by reading books or from a coach.

[aces88ss]

mn, I agree on the hand analysis vrs book learnin. At some point, reading books gets very redundant. I have a set way to play. I am repeatedly dumbfounded when other players have a different strategy. The biggest advantage I get from hand analysis is when my strategy of play is challenged. I have to go back and rethink how I play, decide if my knee jerk reaction was correct, and then justify or change my mind. Changing my mind through hand analysis that is thought out through a dialog like this is my bet way of adding another small bullet to my arsenal.

Having said this, Chris, it's hard to argue with success. BUT...well, I agree with mn on your errors. BUT...there is another advantage to your play. If you were getting that tight image, that is not really a good thing. By loosening up your image a little (or in this hand, a LOT), you could get a very loose image. I am one of those people who color code everyone I play with regularly. You would be marked as a guy I want to play with based on this one hand. Sometimes I have lost a lot of money because I based a player profile on one hand. I would guess that you got called whenever you played for the next few rounds. And possibly, if you run into those players again, you can capitalize on that preconception.

'course, I play a lot o HORSE SnG's, so I will run into the same players much more often than you "limited" NLHE players (tongue in cheek), so having a read on how my opponents play is an advantage.

[Pakashkan]

I play 25NL a lot and you are rarely going to get a guy off a weak Ace at this level. Also, you only have a tight image if the guy is paying attention or has PokerTracker running and is paying attention to it.

Those thinking players tend to not be playing a medium stack, particularly at Full Tilt with the auto-rebuy, and your opponent seemed to have a shorter stack than you from what you posted.

All that being said, very funny comments in the chat box!

[Justin]

I see where Chris is coming from in this hand. For those who are good at getting people on tilt (from the chat comments and the hand, it seems Chris is one of them), I could argue that implied odds could also include future buy-ins. Think about it: because of this specific hand, not only did Chris stack this guy here, but he said he did it one more time. That's some implied odds. Not to mention the light calls I'm sure he got from the others who were thinking, "This donk played 45s to the river that one time, he's probably playing crap again."

Now Chris, you're talking about mixing up your play on a $25 online table. Don't. The amount of money you'll make/save from the one person paying attention will not be close to the money you'll lose from playing those hands, unless you plan on taking that hand to the river and showing it down. You'll influence many more people when you can show a trash hand down, but unless you hit big, it'll be extremely damaging to the bankroll to do it.

I like playing those hands once in a while on these limits, but it's to hit big, stack someone, and get him so upset he starts to spew chips. Other than that, I stick to my style.

Oh, and, nice line.

Irish