Why do hip-hop shows tank in TB?

TAMPA — Kanye West was snubbed here twice. Beyonce played to more empty seats than occupied ones. And now Alicia Keys has joined the Cold Shoulder Club.

It’s sad but true: Tampa Bay is a brutal market for major R&B and hip-hop concerts. West, Beyonce and Keys are multiplatinum superstars that have fans of all ages, genders and races. I want them to come back. But do you?

On Saturday, the 27-year-old Keys — who’s had four consecutive No. 1 albums — played to 7,201 people in the St. Pete Times Forum, a Tampa venue that can seat three times as many. The show was a dazzler, but it would have been better with a full house cheering her on. Tickets started at $39.50, a relatively good deal these days.

You could blame the recession, the price of gas, the price of life. But other major tours are doing great in Tampa Bay (Radiohead, Bon Jovi, Bruce Springsteen). Plus this is a trend that tracks well before 2008.

Last July, Beyonce played to a smattering of fans in the Forum, probably no more than 4,000. Final figures were never released, no surprise there. Minutes before the show — in a move I’ve never seen before — people in the upper levels were invited down to grab a seat in the lower level. Even more amazing? There weren’t enough people in the pricier seats to complain.

The last two times rapper West set up shop in Tampa Bay, a widespread case of couldn’t-care-less broke out. In October 2005, as he was selling out consecutive nights in Madison Square Garden, West drew a measly 3,572 in the USF Sun Dome, which has a capacity around 10,000.

A few weeks ago, West came to Ford Amphitheatre with a hit-making supporting cast of Rihanna, Lupe Fiasco and N.E.R.D. They drew just 9,200, or about half of the venue’s capacity. The very next night, at Miami’s American Airlines Arena, which holds 19,600, Kanye & Co. performed for a sold-out crowd, according to the Miami Herald.

Granted we’re not Miami, and we’re definitely not New York. But something’s going on here.

DJ Trauma, an on-air personality at WiLD 98.7, one of the few local stations that play West and Keys, says there are two major reasons why R&B and hip-hop shows are tanking. First of all, “They don’t have the proper promotions behind them,” he says. “They don’t know how to get the word out to the right people.” Much has been made of Tampa Bay’s dearth of urban radio choices, which could also be part of the problem.

But DJ Trauma also points to the success of WiLD’s two annual hip-hop festivals: Wild Splash and the Last Damn Show, multi-act events that cost around $20 and routinely draw huge crowds. “All these people around here don’t have $40 to spend on a concert,” he says. “There’s a lot of money in Miami and Dallas. This is different here.”

A few R&B and hip-hop acts do well here: Mariah Carey drew 16,493 fans to her 2006 Forum show. Gwen Stefani, whose biggest solo hits are hip-hop collaborations, drew 16,500 at the Amphitheatre last year. Not as good, but not awful, were crowds for a double-bill of Eminem and 50 Cent (13,593, the Forum, 2005), and R&B belter Christina Aguilera (11,538, the Forum, 2007).

Overall, Tampa Bay is considered a good, if unreliable, concert market. Country acts always fill the seats. Veteran performers (a la Neil Diamond, coming Oct. 24) are slam-dunks. And ’80s acts (such as Cheap Trick, Heart and Journey, a triple-bill coming July 30) are money in the bank, too. Those sales numbers are reflected in the local abundance of country and classic-rock radio stations.

But hip-hop shows? Not so much. And that’s too bad, especially since West, Keys and many more have made hip-hop the most creatively daring genre in popular music.

According to Billboard magazine, one of ’08’s hottest tours is the tandem of rapper Jay-Z and “queen of hip-hop soul” Mary J. Blige. Tickets start in the $30s, and nightly grosses in Los Angeles, Las Vegas and Oakland have topped $1 million. There are no plans for Jay and Mary to come to Tampa. With our attendance records, why would they?

Comments

[Marissa]

It's my guess that there's a lot of production involved in certain genres of music ... Hello, Timbaland and the like. So,an artist that sounds good with the mega-bass cranked in the trunk of the Honda -- may not turn out great quality sound on a live stage.

It's just a hunch.

[DG]

I don't quite understand the understated audience for Alicia Keys, but in the cases of Kanye West and even Beyonce, I think these artists have difficulties transcending their respective core genres.

Mariah Carey, like Janet Jackson and Christina Aguilera, resonates not only with R&B, but also with more mainstream pop audiences. This is why I don't get the lack of interest in Alicia Keys, because her music seems to have similar broad appeal.

Also, when tickets are said to start in the thirty dollar range, that usually means lawn tickets (at the Amp) or nosebleeds in an arena. For teenagers and young adults, that's still a lot to pay for that kind of ticket. Getting a good (or even modest) ticket now costs near the hundred dollar range, which is ridiculous.

And the reason artists like Springsteen and Bon Jovi fare so well is because (1) their fanbase is generally old enough (and employed) to afford tickets and (2) these artists have worked many years to acquire such loyal fans.

[CHAD]

i dont have any numbers in front of me, but i think hip hop acts have always had trouble getting people in the seats. most of these artists usually tour with packages to draw more people. now in the big cities, they have no problems, but elsewhere, not so much. like dg said, most of the fans of this genre are younger. thats why rock bands have much more success. even the older established artists. their fans are grown up and have the disposable income to part with. plus the rock guy inside of me says, these artists, for the most part, dont play anything. to me, rock concerts have always been much more exciting. who wants to see dancers, or a rapper rapping with no one else onstage. give me journey, def leppard, bon jovi, asia, or whoever. just give me some rock.

[Eric Deggans]

Not to be impolitic, but i think you may have overlooked one of the big reasons why hip hop and R&B shows don't do well in this area: race.

The artists you mentioned, while all possesed of strong careers and wide audience appeal, are also seen a much more strongly rooted in black culture and the hip hop/R&B world than pop artists like Mariah Carey and Gwen Stefani.

It's something I noticed 11 years ago, when I was pop music critic and shows by then-rap superstars such as Ice Cube and Snoop Dogg either never came to town or were canceled due to low ticket sales.

things are better now for hip hop than they were then -- major promoters are booking rap acts because they are mainstream stars now, and there's at least one FM radio station in town that might play music by a big hip hop act coming to town.

But it seems the people who regularly go to concerts in this area are mostly white rock and country fans. It's almost as if black folks have ceded the major concert halls to white culture and white music fans who may buy a kayne or alicia keys album don't seem as willing to buy a ticket to their concerts.

Wild 98's Wild Splash is an event that the station hypes for a long time to an audience which has turned the concert into a tradition. That's a bit different than touring artists who come to town once every couple of years.

It's been a while since I covered music in towwn, so I don't know if my observations are as true now as they were years ago. But I wouldn't be surprised if the issues I've written about here are part of the reason why the ticket sales for certain artists are so different...

[Greg Jones]

I have a house full (3) of concert goers, from an 18 year old to a 26 year old professional. All female, all with financial means, and all white. While all 3 listen to all the above artists, and buy their music, I don't believe they've been to concerts by any of the three. And we live in an area where Charlotte, Atlanta, Columbia, Charleston and Savannah are all concert destinations. Between the three of them, they'll average a concert a month, most in the $75 ticket range. (Bon Jovi, Tim McGraw, Rascall Flatts, Maroon 5, et. al.)
So, Mr. Sociology says: They listen to and buy the music, but won't attend their concerts. There is definitely another dynamic at work.

[BAM]

I believe the problem is very simply that the demographics of the Tampa Bay area do not support the hip hop genre. Sure, we have significant minority and younger populations to which hip hop has a greater appeal than in the larger white community, but as stated in previous posts, the majority white population tends to be older and have more disposable income. Its style of music is classic rock and pop rather than hip hop.

[Truth]

It's simple...the target fans for these shows are too busy blasting their noise into my car at traffic lights to go sit in an arena for a few hours.

[Ellen]

People ride the wave of music until they get tired of it. Remember heavy metal back in the 80s? It faded. The same thing is happening here. Hip Hop will fade as people find other things to listen to. It is the way of things.

[Hope]

If I have to pay the ticketmaster charges in addition to the ticket charges, the act better have enough songs that I know well. If I have to choose between Bon Jovi or Alicia Keys, I'm choosing Bon Jovi. I wanted to see both could only afford one.

I also refuse to sit in seats where I can't see the artist or feel the concert (third level people typically sit and chill). So the seats start cheap but good seats usually cost $100 for the ticket plus Ticketmaster charges.

I really believe ticketmaster is a reason a lot of artists miss out. I saw Avril Lavigne and the tickets cost $10 each and Ticketmaster charges cost $12.50 each.

[Bear]

Like it or not, the entire rap/hip hop genre is of limited appeal. While there are "crossover" superstars (Mariah Carey, Gwen Stefani, Christina Aguliera), as a parent, most of the rap/hip hop music conveys a message I'd rather my children are not exposed to.

Even if my children were interested, I wouldn't allow them to see an Eminem concert on a bet; and, as another reader mentioned above, area demographics play a strong role in which acts are successful and which are not.

It's a shame, and perhaps a bit unfair, that an artist with a somewhat broader appeal such as Alicia Keys is "snubbed", but it is an unfortunate by-product of the genre with which she chooses to identify. Mariah Carey began as a "pop" artist; Gwen Stefani an alternative rocker ("No Doubt"); and Christina was a Mousketeer before becoming a pop "princess"; albeit one with talent and intelligence (as opposed to fellow Mousketeer and "pop tart" Britney Spears)...so all had established careers with genres OTHER than "hip hop" prior to their current leanings; thus the moderate success all have enjoyed in the Tampa area.

On a more personal note...Detroit, LA and New York are more than welcome to all the "hip hop" they can handle. I get more than enough of it from over modulated bass speakers driving on the main roads. One major station playing that type of music is plenty; and if they changed formats tomorrow, I certainly wouldn't cry about it.

Feel free to agree; or you can simply admit you're wrong....

[Carrie]

Another problem - lip synching. A lot of these "artists" do it. If I am paying to see a show I want to see a band - not a bunch of people dancing around and doing what is basically kaoroke. It is a waste of money. Sometimes from the audience you cannot even see who the "main" star is.

[Rawjek "RJ" Johns]

It has nothing to do with the appeal, or the sound. its all abou the price. For a 40.00 ticket at the forum forget the Nosebleed section. you are sittig on top of the A/C vents. Floor Seats for Ms.Keys where 107.00 Dollars. Who has that type of Money these days? That is alot for the Hip Hop/Rappers are doing samller club tours. A few weeks ago Rappers Twalib Cam to Janus Landing in St. Pete. for 40.00 I was all up in VIP with him. Now if her waould have camw with Kayne, for 40.00 I would have been fighting the Ants off My Hotdog. Secondly there is little or no promotions beyond TV and Radio. What happen to street teams? Flyers? I for one do not Listen to radio, or watch mainstream Television. I live in St. Pete. and I did not see one billboard over here. Then there is the Artist management, and PR. I Email, and called Mr. West's PR people about getting an interview for my show - Hip Hop 411 TV -(www.hiphop411tv.com). They did not even return the call or email to say "Thanks, but no thanks) Sowhen you dis the little people, the little people keep thier money.

Now in the other Major cities like Miami, How many of those sold out tickets where actully "sold"?

Remember the saying.. "It takes Money to Make Money"... Put some money in the promotions, and the rest will fix its self. (unless gas get to 5.00 per gallon.)

[Charlie]

Leave it to Eric Deggans to inject "race" into why hip hop shows don't do well in Tampa.
What does "race have to do with it?
I think the posters that said the younger generation mainly listens to this stuff were more on target.
In fact, many young white people like rap and hip hop. When I am at a trafic light and I hear this music blasting from someone's car radio, it is generally a white person.
The young people can barely afford to put gas in their car, much less buy a $100 ticket to a concert.
This is a matter of economics, not race.

[Eric Deggans]

If it were just about youth, then youth-oriented artists such as Gwen Stefani and Christina Aguilera wouldn't have done well as they did.

Hannah Montana and the Jonas Brothers seemed to do all right in this market as well.

I don't just think it's a youth thing. and i hate to disillusion the guy waiting for hip hop to die down, but its been almost 30 years since the first hip hop platinum record. i think the genre is here to stay....

[Charlie]

Eric, It still boils down to economics. Most parents will pay for a ticket to a show that doesn't feature offensive lyrics, like the Jonas Brothers or Hannah Montana. Parents will not buy tickets to shows that glorify ho's and the gangsta lifestyle and talk about weed like a Snoop Dog show. If kids want to go to shows like that, they do so without parental support and financing.
Gwen Stefani is just as known for her "ska" and "rock" No Doubt days as her few hip hop collaborations. Christina Aguilera only drew 11,500, hardly a sellout and just 4000 more than Keys.
Besides, Alicia Keys tickets were expensive during a time of $4 dollar gas and a slowed down economy. She might have appeal, but not the fanatic following of young people like a Hannah Montana.
You claim "It's almost as if black folks have ceded the major concert halls to white culture and white music fans" What, do "black folks" not like to go to concerts with "white folk"? They have the same right to be there and if they don't buy tickets, don't blame "white culture".

[Forever Fiancee]

I think race, age and economics do play a very powerful role in concert demographics, however I think there is also something else at work here – technology.

The youth of America are much more technology-savvy than older generations (including mine), and they prefer to get their entertainment at home because 1) they can, 2) it’s convenient and available and 3) it’s much, much cheaper. In this age of You Tube, TRL, HBO, DVR’s, cable TV, iPods, MP3’s, Napster and satellite radio, younger generations are able to get their entertainment from more places than ever before. Why would they shell out $100+ to see a live concert when they can easily download a video of their favorite artists onto their cell phones?

Because of this, I strongly believe that you will see a gradual (or maybe not so gradual) trend toward declining concert ticket sales and attendance. Let’s face it! The concert will probably become a thing of the past, like the 8-track player and cassette tapes. Live concerts were critical to a band’s success back when all we had were vinyl records and 3 channels on TV. MTV changed all that in the 80’s, and our music and entertainment culture has been changing ever since!

With that said, there still has to be a reason that certain entertainers don’t draw a crowd in Tampa Bay. We could argue all day whether or not Tampa Bay is more technologically advanced than other areas, like New York, L.A. or Atlanta. So race, age and economics may come into play here. But there’s no denying that the live concert is a dying medium!

[sparky]

I'm going with the lipsynching thing. When I go see a live show I want to hear the artist perform the songs. I don't care if he or she and their dance troupe are in step. Hell, I don't even want a dance troupe. As the old saying goes "Play the drums Ringo".

[Tonka61]

Eric, you are implying that because hip hop artists are primarily black, they don't get the same type of promotion. Eric Clapton just put 15,000 people in the Amp, and there was VERY little promotion. Steve Miller and Joe Cocker didn't get much promotion until the tail end, and they put probably 10-12,000 in there on Memorial Day weekend.

How about what Marissa said? Production. These artists are such in the studio - not on stage. They can't, nor will they ever be able to, touch a Clapton or a Roger Waters. Whether or not it is good music is a personal choice. I will not say I believe it is crap music and expect you to feel the same way. But I doubt anyone will ever believe that a Kanye West has as much musical talent as the aforementioned artists.

That is why no one goes. That, or because the inner city folks who make up a large portion of the hip hop community can't afford a concert - period.

I don't know why they wouldn't go. The Amp is very weed friendly, from the smell of it.

Tonka, you bring up acts that have been around for 20, 30 and 40 years. What hip hop acts have been around that long? Clapton, Steve Miller, Cocker those guys don't use fancy production they are musicians. Kanye and the Hip-Hoppers are all production, from the studio through the stage show. When was the last time someone commented on the dance moves that Joe Cocker has?

[Carrie]

Who wants to pay all that money just to see someone dance and lip synch? You can see that on a music video for free. If you go to a concert you want to hear more than a "I love you St. Petersburg!" spoken quickly between the lip synched tracks. You go to see a real show with real people. All this "production" is just garbage. It is meant to detract that the person (or group) has no talent and is trying to cover it up with smoke and mirrors.

One of my favorite quotes is from the Spice Girls when asked why they were lip synching. Their reply was words to the effect of "not knowing" they were supposed to sing "for real". Sheer lack of talent. The same for anyone who lip synchs. Which sadly a lot of hip hop is. Like I said before just smoke and mirrors.

[keath kono]

First of all, for those that don't know about hip hop, or don't listen to it, or live it - shut up. Stick to Rock 'n' Roll or something. Now, I'm 33 years old and have been involved in hip hop since 1980! DJ, breaking, graffiti, MCing - I've done it all, and still do most of it. The main reasons that REAL hip hop and R&B tours don't do well here is because 1)The audience and music has changed. A lot of the what's popular is actually garbage. So-called fans don't respect good hip-hop and r&b acts (Lupe Fiasco, Alicia Keys)and therefore will not pay to see them. 2)Promoters aren't willing to book tours with a bunch of thugs on stage for insurance reasons. 3)Older fans don't want to go to sweaty nightclubs with knuckle-heads to see a show. 4)Some shows are on weeknights when regular people have to get up and go to work! 5) Unless it's Prince, no one should have to pay the crazy prices they charge for tickets. We do have bills, you know. The bottom line is, there are various reasons for this issue. I remember seeing Public Enemy. I remember Run DMC and the Beastie Boys, and the Fat Boys coming here. Hell, I saw Jay-Z (before he blew up!) with Jaz-O at USF in '91 with Main Source. Until these issues are resolved, we'll have to journey to Orlando, Atlanta, or Miami from now on.

[ward]

Most of the current contemporary artists fail to draw for simple reasons: They suck live and who's gonna pay top dollar for crap? Yes, there are SOME acts (in the last 10 years that put on great shows-I was at the Keys show and she's brilliant.
Every poster brings up valid points. All but Deggans who puts race into it not to mention his qualifications.
I remembered his reviews and every one mentioned that such and such artist was backed by a "crack 8 piece band"
What a hack.

As far as race: white kids have been digging black music for decades, They the records and go to the shows too. The white kids put money in the black artists pocket. It's not about black and white- it's about GREEN

[ward]

Most of the current contemporary artists fail to draw for simple reasons: They suck live and who's gonna pay top dollar for crap? Yes, there are SOME acts (in the last 10 years) that put on great shows-I was at the Keys show and she's brilliant.
Every poster brings up valid points. All but Deggans who puts race into it not to mention his qualifications.
I remembered his reviews and every one mentioned that such and such artist was backed by a "crack 8 piece band"
What a hack.

As far as race: white kids have been digging black music for decades, They buy the records and go to the shows too. The white kids put money in the black artists pocket. It's not about black and white- it's about GREEN