Romano: Your own stadium taste test

ST. PETERSBURG — As first impressions go, this one is certainly intriguing.
The Rays have come up with a stadium proposal that is attractive,  innovative and ambitious.

It is also a long, long way from reality.

Based on the details revealed today by the Rays, there are no obvious flaws to the plan. St. Petersburg taxpayers will not have any money flow out of their bank accounts or from current city funds, and the entire area could benefit greatly from the retail/housing/entertainment development being proposed near midtown.

The problem is perception. As a team, the Rays have not won enough games to claim the hearts of the Tampa Bay area. And as an owner, Stuart Sternberg has not spent enough money to earn the public’s trust.

So you begin with skepticism, and go from there.

Sort of like every Opening Day around here.

The Rays understand this will be a problem. They know your first question will be about financing. They know your second question will be about the weather. They know your third question will be about parking.

Team officials believe they have the proper answers to those questions, and hundreds of others. But having an answer is not the same thing as changing someone’s mind. And I think a lot of minds are already made up.

Here then, is your own stadium taste test. Consider each issue, ponder the logic offered by the Rays, and decide for yourself whether this stadium deal is worth pursuing.

The Deal

Basically, the Rays are saying the 15 acres at Al Lang are more valuable as a site for a baseball stadium and the 80 acres at Tropicana Field are more valuable as a development site. So they are proposing to swap land with the proceeds from the Tropicana site financing the construction of both sites.

The team will be responsible for cost overruns and is not going to charge fans for personal seat licenses. If that plan holds up to scrutiny, it’s difficult to find fault with it.

Agree or disagree?

The Weather

The Rays say watching a game at this ballpark will be cooler than summer games in Atlanta or Texas. They say the breeze from the water and the design of the stadium will have a natural cooling effect.

I’m not sure I buy the idea that it will be cooler than Atlanta, but I do think people are overreacting to the heat question. Probably 75 percent of the Rays home games are played at night. You may not have a fresh breeze blowing through your hair, but it’s not like you’re going to roast while sitting waterside at 7:30 p.m.

Agree or disagree?

The Parking

It is not going to be as simple as Tropicana Field or Raymond James or the St. Pete Times Forum. The stadium itself will have a very limited number of parking spaces, so fans will have to find alternative parking in downtown St. Pete.

The Rays say their studies show an ample number of parking spaces within a 15-minute walk of the stadium site. Frankly, this idea should thrill the city. It will bring added dollars and customers to downtown retailers and restaurants.

The Rays are the ones who stand to lose on this issue. Most teams get considerable revenue from parking charges. The Rays will get none.

Agree or disagree?

The Stadium

It’s hard to judge based on sketches and virtual reality tours, but the initial impression was not spectacular. The waterfront view is certainly attractive, but the stadium itself did not look particularly charming or homey.

Sternberg said the Rays did not want to follow the trend of retro ballparks and instead wanted to take stadium design into the 21st century, so the stadium will not have a single brick. But the reason retro ballparks work is not because they’re the latest fad but because they have a classic elegance. Bricks are like blue jeans. They never go out of style.

Agree or disagree?

The Perception

Again, this may be the most difficult hurdle for the Rays.

No matter what they say about financing, there will be suspicions that current tax money is being diverted to a team owned by millionaires. And there will be accusations that Sternberg is squeezing money out of the Bay Area while refusing to dramatically increase the team’s payroll.

This issue will come down to a matter of trust. If all the business proposals work — and that is no guarantee — Sternberg will still have to convince voters to approve the referendum in 12 months.

The man is sharp, and he is sincere. He may want to consider townhall-style meetings to answer the questions of concerned citizens. The future of his team, and the direction of the city, may depend on this.

Agree or disagree?

John Romano can be reached at romano@sptimes.com.

Comments

[William Riola]

These comments are about attendance; but and old fogie like me cannot find the proper way to E-mail someone.

I grew up walking to Ebbetts Field, where for 60cents (later 75) one could see the likes of Banks, Kiner, Mays or Musial play a host of future Hall-of-Famers. On special occaisions, such as a Giant double-header we would pay $2.25 for a $2.25 seat; buy a hotdog without leaving our seats and be entertained by a host of characters in the stands.

We live 100 miles from the trop. We got to one or two games a year but only if they are home when we are going to be passing by.

We did so on fathers day when, quite luckily, they were playing our other team, the Marlins. We went on line to purchase tickets and payed double the sticker in order to get front row left field seats. One was a corporate and the other an individuals season ticket.
About the 4th inning I went for the mandatory hotdog. After ten minutes on line (and an inning lost) I gave up and returned to my seat. We ate at a pub after the game.

My community runs a trip to The Trop every year. This years tickets are $59 each and does not include food.

Now the players. People can excuse BJ all they want but on several occaisions early in the year he hit balls that I would have tripled on and he barely made second. Finally someone in the dugout noticed. The fans should get their money back when one of these guys slacks off.

The Marlins are our favorite team for two reasons. They were here first and they televise 150 games a year. They, of course don't know how to make the bat hit the ball with runners on third base. How about choking up with two strikes. Then there's Ramirez and the firstbasemans' glove he can't get the ball out of.

To sum up: It costs $100 a couple to go a game. You can't call the box office to get a $20 ticket for $20.
When you get there, they don't have enough concession stands open to handle the few people who are there.
You get to see some pretty poor play
(though the Rays are better this year)
And why is Baldelli still a Ray and Cantu is not. AND I can still tell you the starting lineups for the mid-50s' Dodgers and Giants.

I vented - thanks

Bill Riola

[Dr_Dug]

Since the stadium is a no-go, how about putting a Circus/Fair by the waterfront with retail on multiple levels for retail and eating? Imagine a Ferris-Wheel, Circus Tents and rides for the children while Mom and dad shop or eat on one of the multiple open-air levels. It would be a great compliment to First Night,Grand Prix and the total idea of an alive Downtown St. Pete... Coney Island up North...."The Circus by Waterfront in St Pete!!" I LOVE THE IDEA !!

[SA]

Hey RayRay...what are you clingin on to buddy? A chance to get to .500 and your last tall boy Natrual Light? Do us a favor and shut it..

[Thomas]

I dont think Iwamura will work at 2B.

I think either Dukes will come around (yeah I see the latest report) or they will go Crawford/Rocco/Gomes.

Upton belongs at second in my opinion.

[tt]

You're a huge fan who thinks Upton is still playing second base? Ok then.

[Thomas]

I love the deal.

The outfield is overcrowded, so losing D.Young's production is not that big of deal - assuming Rocco can stay healthy for once.

Tightening up the infield defensively is such a huge advantage. Upton/Bartlett will be a great pivot for years.

The best part of the deal is Eduardo Morlan. Gammons has said he's like K-Rod from 2002. If he develops into a solid closer as projected, this deal could be the cornerstone of the Rays jump into contention.

Garza, Kazmir, and Shields anchoring the rotation makes me giddy.

LASTLY,
Since we're on the stadium thread I should post my disclaimer:

Just because I love this deal and just because I'm a huge fan of the team does not mean that I'm going to put on lipstick and a dress and be the Rays date for this absurd stadium deal.
NO PUBLIC GIVEAWAYS FOR THE RAYS - PERIOD.

[tt]

Garza = much better than would be 5th starter. Longoria & new RF & Bartlett = much better than Young & Harris & Zobrist. 2008 Rays offense = better than 2007 Rays offense.

Don't forget Young only hit 13 homers, stole 10 bases, had a crappy obp, and struck out too much. Talk about believing the hype.

[rr]

Thank you Thor for waking up and smelling the roses--or in the case a shitpot of boondoggle. Ownership wants to suck the city dry. Is everyone going to get excited about their projected fourth place (in the division) finish this year? Is Garza going to replace 90 RBIs and the best outfield arm in the league? Like you, I wish this team would relocate out of the state.

[Thor]

I've restudied the proposal and Thomas is coorect. The Rays will be ripping off the city to the tune of actually more than a half billion. State tax money will be diverted for maintenance. Proceeds from public land will finance 75 percent of the building of the new stadium and public land will be used as the new stadium site. To top it off, the Rays project a pie in the sky development in a blighted area that has NEVER attracted development.

[Thor]

Thomas, Thor does not understand how you can type but cannot read. Please Thomas, read the story again. Thor will make it easy for you. Knock down the trop, get a new stadium and a really cool downtown with lots of things for Thomas and Thor to see and do. Keep the trop and Thomas and Thor will have nothing but a really big parking lot. Perhaps Thomas likes that, Thor however, she likes to shop and she wants a nice St Petersburg, not the same lame one Thomas desires. Please Thomas, move away from Thor, she sees a very cool future without a lot of asphalt.

[Thomas]

A downtown stadium works when you dont give away $400M + of public funds to finance it.

This is going to be soundly defeated because we are not the fools the Rays think we are.

We see through the "no new tax" scheme to the real facts. We're not redeveloping two public parcels for the sole benefit of the Rays.

Sorry - no thanks.

[Leo]

As a part-time transplant from Maryland, I know a bit about humidity and have had occaisional bouts of Orioles affliction (when they dare to play well).
A downtown stadium works, period. The beauty of downtown St. Pete will glow, especially when mixed with the excitement of a (possible) winner.
The depictions of the stadium and environs make the rest of MLB teams look poor in comparison.(BTW, the RAYS will play better, just because).
This is a winner!

[SmarterThanYou]

Ray Ray's a jerky boy.

[Ray Ray]

The highlight of your baseball fandom was Sid Bream sliding into home? How incredibly pathetic!! You probably would get your rocks off if they sold cotton candy in Rays team colors.

[mB]

As a transplant from Atlanta, and being a lifelong Braves fan(26 years young). I am desperately searching for some reason to get into the Rays. I have been going to a few games here and there at the Trop and I just dont feel the same sitting inside watching a baseball game. When I heard the news of the new stadium, I became extremely excited. The new stadium gives me something to be excited about and look forward to go to ball games. I cannot wait for the day in the future to come where me and my kids can get excited for the Rays the same way I was when Sid Bream slid into home plate to win it the NLDS for the Braves in 1991. This new stadium gives all us transplants a reason to come to the games and become part of the fanbase that, lets face it, needs some help growing.

[Thomas]

"This is a no-brainer. It's a win for the city of St. Pete/Pinellas county and its people"

Please explain, specifically, how giving away over $400M to the Rays without any return on that investment is a "win" for the people...

Really, I'd love to hear you describe how the people benefit from this idea.

Here are a few other ideas that make no sense yet are being repeated by the dim witted:

"It comes down to a simple question - Does St. Pete want to be a baseball town or not?"
We already are a baseball town. We have a team and a stadium and everything. I guess what you're trying to say is. "It comes down to a simple question - Does St. Pete want to hand over $400M + or not" and the answer is a resounding NO.

Next, "Plus, the tax payers aren't fronting the bill."
Actually, we are. Only it's cleverly disguised. Instead of a very direct sales tax, it's a sneaky land swap of public parcels. So check your facts, just because they're not being upfront about it, doesnt mean we arent paying.

Then, "It's a plan to develop and enhance the entire downtown area. It will add business, tax revenue, etc"
We need a plan that DOES NOT include giving away $400M + to a private sports franchise.

Lastly, It's not the taxpayers responsibility to ensure the Rays are making money or to help the Rays be "competitive". MLB has revenue sharing tools, etc in place for that.

Tell you what, if this is such a "wonderful" deal for everyone. Let's ask the Rays to guarantee the figures they're floating. If the public doesnt see the "economic" growth, then 100% of the Rays profits go to the city until those figures are met. Tell me supporters, how do you think that conversation would go?

[Nicky P.]

One more thing - Five or Ten years from now the Rays could be a team that the city is proud of. Excitement and memories between family, friends and fans will increase as the ballpark comes to fruition and the team starts performing better. The Rays will no longer be the laughingstock of the AL and many citizens of St. Pete's will develop a sense of identity or cohesion, partly based on the new ball park, partly based on the better playing team, and partly based on a transformed downtown area from the sale of the Trop and redevlopment of the land in which it sits.

[Nicky P.]

Give the Rays a chance! The proposed cost of the stadium is nothing compared to other new parks being built. Plus, the tax payers aren't fronting the bill.

This is more than plan for a new a ball park. It's a plan to develop and enhance the entire downtown area. It will add business, tax revenue, and help bring a sense of charm to the city.

As far as the heat/parking complaints. You live in Florida, deal with it. Studies show that towns and cities in which a large proportion of people live within walking distance of work, entertainment, recreation, etc., have citizens who are healthier and less obese.

Yes the Rays team has sucked since its inception. The new ownership is obviously committed to making them competitive, as evidenced by recent trades and free agent signings. They probably realize that a new ball park by itself is not going to bring fans; Obviously they are working on becoming a better team too.

[D-Ray]

Uh, there's already a baseball stadium on our waterfront.

[Kathleen]

Not on our waterfront! Never!

[D-Ray]

Sure. Losing a soon to be successful major league baseball team is good for a city.

[Mike]

How about this as a plan for the Rays? Tell the losing Rays to go elsewhere (maybe Tampa) and sell the Trop to a developer. This way the city would see a gain of $250 – $300 Million from the sale and taxes on the new development. The city could then pay off the remaining debt on the Trop and still have enough money to build a outdoor concert venue on the existing Al Lang field and put on concerts that will pay for themselves and bring additional tax revenue to the city. This way the city is a big winner and the only loser (already are) is the Rays.

[D-Ray]

Mark and Ryan, well said. This is a no-brainer. It's a win for the city of St. Pete/Pinellas county and its people and a win for the Rays.

[D-Ray]

Dan, they faced it north to help cope with the sun/heat. Home runs will make it into "Lang Cove".

[Mark]

Come on people, this is a no brainer! The Trop is an outdated stadium. It's all about the corporate $, without it teams won't survive. A stadium must have luxury suites, etc. in order for team to make $ and be competitive. Look at Philly, Cleveland and Baltimore(initially). Became instant competitors once new stadium was built. It does not guarantee success however as there will always be a Pittsburgh for every Cleveland. It comes down to a simple question - Does St. Pete want to be a baseball town or not? If so, this stadium has to happen. If not, say bye to the Rays. Also, 35,000 - 40,000 seat stadiums are all you need, they generate plenty of $ so no need to ever expand. The weather? Please, I live in Philly area during summers and humidity is just as bad.

[Dan]

Ugly looking stadium, no charm to it whats so ever. If anything, have it facing the water or the pier just the way the ball park looks in San Fran. it would be nice to see homeruns landing in the bay, instead of foul balls. Maybe this would convince Barry Bonds to play here..lol. By the way, did we trade our top prospect Delmon Young and one of our best hitters last year in Brendon Harris to free up some money for this ugly looking park?

[Tim]

How much longer before these juiced up players start hitting the suport cables and the complaits come again. Remember when they told us that the balls would never hit the catwalks at the Dome? Or, how they were going to raise the payroll every year? Or, how earlier this year they told the media they were not looking to move out of the Trop anytime soon? You CANNOT trust these guys!

[Ryan]

I think this is a AMAZING idea. It looks great and im totally in favor of it. I feel like it would do wonders to our city, and I would be damn proud to have this in my city and to say that I was a season ticket holder. To those of you who make up excuses or complaints on why its "too hot"... at 7:30pm or why you wouldnt want to get the excercise walking along bayshore dr. before going into the stadium I have a simple answer...... dont go. Sit at home with your thumb up your butt while the rest of the bay area goes out to a nite on the town culminated with a twilite ball game under the stars on our beautiful waterfront!

[joe]

What is this fascination with Tampa? I don't understand why the Rays would leave a growing city in St. Pete, to go to a 9 to 5 city out in Tampa. Yay! Dale Mabry and a bunch of strip malls. Get a clue, Tampa has ZERO downtown and is one of the least walkable areas I've ever come across (ASIDE FROM CHANNELSIDE).

St. Petes downtown is light years away from Tampas

[aaron]

Everybody is so ready to "tell the rays where they can stick thier stadium". everyone is so ready to have the rays move too tampa, where they they will gladly drive 30 min over the Howard Franklin to THEN watch the rays play. This is the reason why St. Petersburg will always play second fiddle to tampa. this is the reason why our city cant shake the "looser" image. hell, no one even knew we existed before the rays came here. try telling your friends where St. Pete was in the 80's,"oh, the town by Tampa". This town better wake up or continue too be GODS WAITING ROOM

[Thomas]

So, the Rays plan to use funds from the "redevelopment of Tropicana" field, even though they dont own the land.

Perhaps I can start a proposal to "redevelop" the land that Stu Sternberg's mansion is on and use the profits to build a nice recreation room for me and my neighbors.

[David Mathews]

I doubt that very many people will be driving to the stadium in 2011. Gasoline is $3 a gallon now, how much will it cost in 2011?

I'd prefer that St. Petersburg devote its attention & its money to some more important goals. For example, St. Petersburg will need a robust & efficient public transportation system by 2011.

Given the dismal performance of the Rays over the last decade, rewarding the team with a new stadium seems rather foolish. Will they assemble a winning team by 2011?

[P. Vari]

New stadium OK! Redevelop the Trop OK!

But build it on Albert Whitted property where space and views are abundant. Nobody uses that property, less than 1% of the people use the best piece of property in the city. Lets hear what the boys from New York got to say and give them the benifit of doubt.

[SmarterThanYou]

Thanks for that, Don. Now move.

[Don Mott]

Citizens of St. Pete, may the one above have mercy on your souls when the bill comes due for the shafting you are about to receive! It is no wonder the city leaders wanted to keep the proposal a secret. This plan has failure and waste written all over it. Those who are impressed by the pictures certainly don't see the whole picture. Good Luck St. Pete!

[D-Ray]

This is an absolute HOME RUN!

Let's grow up St. Pete and become a major league downtown... http://www.majorleaguedowntown.com

[mike]

34,000 people.... I don't think so. In a few years when the salaries have been increased the taxpayers will have to pay for a 25,000 seat expansion to the new ST. PETE downtown site, which will cause TAMPA to offer to build an expensive stadium and lure the Tampa Bay devil rays to .... where else? TAMPA.... Those who forget history are inclined to LIVE IT AGAIN..

[A Cabrera]

The stadium needs to be in Tampa! St.Pete is pretty, but from an outsider's point of view, it is not a Major League city. There would be a lot more fans from central Florida going to Tampa than St.Pete. It is a pain and sometimes a mess trying to get to a game.

[Clark]

"Bricks are like blue jeans. They never go out of style."

They don't? Then whatever happened to Ebbetts Field, the Polo Grounds, Shibe Park, Crosley Field et al.? If your intent is just to build a park out of brick, add a couple of unnecessary quirks in the outfield and call it 'retro', you wind up with something as formulaic and tired as the circular multipurpose bowls of the 60s and 70s.
The proposed design fits in perfectly with what's already there. I love it.

[Jason]

I wonder if the Albert Whitted referendum would have passed if A new stadium, parking and retail were proposed on that land. You could have had a 270 degree view of the water.

The Trop land is the only significant area of expansion in downtown St. Pete since we're locked into Albert Whitted for the next 15 years. Right now no taxes are raised by eithe parcel of land. By expanding on the Trop land the city will gain a new tax revenue stream and reconnect to that segment of town.

I'm all for the design which compliments the Signature Tower. Retro is just that, a thing of the past. Why not do something Unique for St. Pete. When you look at pictures of other cities do they highlight the buildings that look like every other city of the building that signifies individuality.

[John]

Very pretty, flashy, even! Here's the deal. Who is going to walk 15 minutes in 90+ degree heat during an afternoon LIGHTNING STORM to a Rays "evening" game downtown? More importantly, who, other than St Pete residents, are going to go through the HASSLE of driving all the way from Clearwater, Tampa and beyond to fight the traffic and spend an hour hunting for an overpriced parking garage spot? They won't even do that for games at the easily accesible Tractor Pull dome now!!! And the following quote "The team believes the stadium would become a destination, with fans spending hours before and after games in the area"....they said THE SAME EXACT THING when they sold us on the Trop!!! And furthermore, if "most of the games" will be played at night, then who's going to see the water in the dark? Who's going to spend hours in downtown St Pete at night getting chased around by bums, the homeless and panhandlers? Are you people seriously out of your minds??

Tear down Al Lang, make it a PERMANENT PARK as it was destined to become in the 1st place. Tear down and re-develop the Trop site, and move the team to a location that will draw fans from ALL over the TAMPA BAY AREA. GEE, there's 80+ undeveloped acres at Toytown!!! (275 and Roosevelt), there's PLENTY of land in Carillon at the east end of the property (Ulmerton & 275) RIGHT BY THE BRIDGE!!! There's PLENTY of room at the old Boatyard Village (NE Corner of St Pete Clwtr Airport property @ the Bayside Bridge).....This is NOT Boston, we do not have comparable downtowns, folks. We need a stadium that is centrally located for ALL residents to enjoy. And I am a native of St Pete, if that matters. Oh, and don't even get me started about the BLUE HAIRS in Bayfront Tower next door constantly complaining about noise....can you imagine 34,000 people a block away from their bedrooms? BAHAHAHHAHA good luck we'll see how that works out for ya Stu!

[Thomas]

"So they are proposing to swap land with the proceeds from the Tropicana site financing the construction of both sites."

ATTENTION - THE RAYS DO NOT OWN EITHER PARCEL. WHY ARE THEY INVOLVED IN TRYING TO SWAP THEM ?

" it’s difficult to find fault with it."

HEY JOHN, HOW ABOUT WE ALSO LET THE RAYS "REDEVELOP" THE LAND YOUR HOME IS CURRENTLY ON - THEN THEY CAN USE THAT MONEY FOR A STADIUM. DIFFICULT TO FIND FAULT WITH THAT TOO ?

This deal is awful. I'm just glad we have an ironclad lease agreement for the Rays at the Trop. We wont have to be bothered with "build us a park or we're going to relocate".

There is no way the public should funnel redevelopment revenue from the Trop site to the baseball team. It's absurd, it's illogical, and there is no sane way to support it.

NO
End of Story.

[Larry]

I think the design is pretty neat. Enough comments about the heat. Have you ever been to a game up north in the summertime? I watched a doubleheader at Wrigley and thought I was going to do, it was so hot!! Let's make sure we have all the facts of the proposal before everyone goes crazy about their own personal tax situation. The redesign of the trop area looks great as well.

[Brian]

That stadium looks hideous. The Montreal Expos played in a dome that looks just like the proposed elevation. Poor location too. Feather Sound makes much more sense.

[Jeff Dzierzawski]

My first thought, when I saw the artists preview of the stadium from the water, was of how stunning the Sydney Opera House looks next to the Sydney harbor. This structure would reach beyond the baseball community.
This looks like an exciting opportunity for the whole area.
Very classy.

[Taylor Pierce]

This stadium is just what the Rays need to become a legitimate organization. The best way for a team to not play like crap is to get them into a ball park that doesnt look like crap. This stadium is perfect for the comunity of St. Pete and is an attractive venue for residents of Tampa to travel to.

[june]

I am having trouble holding on to my home what with taxes and insurance and do I care about the need for this new stadium. We need tax reform. The Rays can stay where they are. A new stadium will not help their performance and attendance record. It will cost taxpayers, that is a given.

[Bill Schaus]

Wonder how many people want to walk 15 minutes to the ballpark? In August, at 6 o'clock? Good job on the design, about time some team decides that Camden Yards is not the only way to build a stadium. Modern and unique will be just fine as long as the amenities are in place. The Rays have their work cut out for them getting the area to agree with this plan. The more open and honest about costs the Rays are the better.

[btr]

I like the design, and I like that it'll be a little controversial. The retro parks were great at first, but they've become kind of a cliche, and I don't see anyone doing very much new with them. (The new Yankees and Mets ballparks look to be dull as dirt.)

[JD]

Design: This is the design that new "retractable roof" stadiums should use. Even when the "roof" is closed, you are still outside. I have been saying for years now that Miami Marlins should look into a covering that would only cover the roof, and leave the sides of the park open air. I love look of the park too. I really like retro parks too, but this jsut looks nice. I also get the feeling that it is an intimate park, like going to a AAA park, but watching major league players. This is good. Right on top of the action.

Even though I love the design, I still would never vote to give millionaires hand outs. If the Rays built it all with their own money, I say this would be a gem of a stadium.