Rays: 14,000 spaces available for most games

UPDATE (7:55 p.m.) -- Here, again, is the link to Tampa Bay Rays' parking and traffic analysis. And here is the link to the additional details on the stadium design. Both documents also are available at the Rays' web site, www.majorleaguedowntown.com. Click on the tab "Press."

UPDATE (4:10 p.m.) -- On the question of the Rays kicking people out of parking spaces, I asked that question to the traffic consultant, and they said their estimates only include unused or available spaces during the times when baseball games would be played. How'd they do that? They actually observed the lots and garages during February (a busier time of year, they say) to see what spaces are and are not being used. Enjoy the debate.

UPDATE (4:05 p.m.) -- The study includes an interesting graphic that, for the most part, is unrelated to either parking or traffic. It details where Rays' season ticket holders live. Forty-six percent of season ticket holders, almost half, live outside Pinellas County, and less than 30 percent live in St. Petersburg.

UPDATE (3:50 p.m.) -- The critical assumption of the parking analysis is that 19 private lots open their doors for baseball (The analysis does not include smaller lots or church lots that may want to get in the baseball parking business). The consultant suggests they'll have a financial incentive to do so. The lots are: St. Petersburg College Center; Wachovia Bank parking lot; Progress Energy building garage; Christ United Methodist Church lot; Muncipal Services Center garage; BB&T Building garage; SunTrust Building garage; St. Mary's Church lot; St. Petersburg Times lots; Synovus Bank lot; Municpal Lot 68; State Office Building lot, Mirror Lake; Pinellas County Courthouse garage; 501 Building garage; Courthouse Square lots; A.G. Edwards & Sons lots; Bayfront Medical West garage and Heart Center garage; All Children's Hospital South garages; USF-St. Petersburg lots. The Rays have or will have letters of interest from three of the largest parking providers, USF-St. Pete, Bayfront and All Children's.

UPDATE (3:25 p.m.) -- Aside from where people will park, much of the study discusses the traffic the extra cars will bring downtown. The highly technical analysis can be hard to understand, but the consultant in charge of the study, David Wallace, just said in an interview with the Times that St. Petersburg's grid and insterstate system makes the Rays' proposal possible.

UPDATE (2:40 p.m.) -- So, here'e what we're talking about. You can see the orange rings coming out from the proposed stadiun. Inside the first ring is a 5-10 minute walk, according to the consultant. Inside ring 2 is 10-15 minutes, and inside the third ring is up to a 25-minute walk. When all added up, the Rays say there will be 10,700 spaces within the third ring available for baseball fans on weekday nights. The number increases slightly for weekend games.

UPDATE: (2:30 p.m.) -- The study presents a science that is, at times, difficult to follow. The consultant, at one point, starts with a total of 17,000 off-street parking spaces within 3/4 a mile of Al Lang Field (5,000 within 1/4 mile, another 6,000 between 1/4 and 1/2 mile, and 6,000 between 1/2 and 3/4 miles). But the study eliminates 20 percent of the farthest away spaces because they would be less desirable. It also factors in a retail tenant occupying space, and therefore parking spaces, in the city's Southcore Garage. It makes assumptions that smaller parking lots will be less used, and bigger lots will be completely full. There's a great image that we're working to post that will detail what spaces the consultant's talking about.

UPDATE (2:15 p.m.) -- Because they're relying on the parking spaces of private businesses to make their numbers work, the Rays' consultants say only 6,800 spaces may be available when the Rays play a weekday afternoon game (Rays estimate 4-6 times a year). The Rays already run "camp" days for student groups on weekday, day games and could continue to do so in the new ballpark.

UPDATE (2 p.m.) -- Part of the parking plan calls for "pre-selling" up to 4,000 spaces to fans, based on zip codes. Fans coming from the south would park in southern spaces. Fans from the north would park in the north. The consultant suggests this strategy has worked in urban ballparks in Pittsburgh and San Diego. It's unclear if this would be for each individual game or only season ticket holders.

UPDATE (1:45 p.m.) -- We're just starting through these documents, but a couple of points stand out based on what we've seen so far. The Rays are assuming, using 2005 parking and tickets sales, a rate of 2.9 people per car. In that scenario, the team believes it only needs around 12,000 spots. The "available" spaces are within 3/4 a mile of the proposed new stadium and inlcude 2,000 spaces at Tropicana Field. The analysis assumes those spaces will only be used for near-sellout games and ticket holders would use a shuttle to reach the field.

ST. PETERSBURG -- The Tampa Bay Rays are releasing today  details of a parking and traffic management study that suggest there are nearly 14,000 parking spaces available for baseball games if a new stadium was built at Al Lang Field.

The number of spaces available does not include another 7,000 on-street parking spaces that would be available to downtown businesses and residents.

The study, performed by national consultant Rumme, Klepper & Kahl, found several companies willing to work with the Rays to find parking solutions -- including All Children's Hospital, Bayfront Medical Center and the University of South Florida St. Petersburg.

"Ensuring convenient access and adequate parking for the ballpark and other downtown attractions is critical to the success of downtown St. Petersburg and the Rays," Rays senior vice president Michael Kalt said in a release issued around noon Tuesday. "The Rays are committed to on-going coordination with the City of St. Petersburg, downtown residents, and institutions to minimize the traffic and parking impacts of the new ballpark and to attract new visitors to the downtown, its businesses, and its waterfront amenities."

We're starting to analyze the results of the study in more detail. You can see it for yourself here. But the release also says that of 32 "key intersections analyzed in the downtown area, only one minor physical intersection improvement would be needed to accommodate the flow of inbound and outbound traffic before and after baseball games."

The Rays also Tuesday submitted preliminary design details for the proposed 34,000 seat stadium to the city. Concepts highlighted include:

* Ballpark roof and façade design;
* The relationship of the proposed ballpark to the surrounding community;
* Potential public amenities;
* Streetscape improvement ideas;
* And sustainability goals.

You can review that document here. 

-- Aaron Sharockman, Times Staff Writer

Comments

[Kim]

can we just vote on this and get it over with. Who is going to pay the 223 million that is left on the Dome. Give me a break. Let Baker pay it. He has more money than all of us. Foster could come up with the money? Isn't there anyone out there who can say no?

[Mike Creyton]

Kim are you ignorant? Have you read anything about the proposal? The remaining debt on the Trop would be paid for by the sale and redevelopment of the current Trop site. That land that is only used 81 days per year and generates ZERO tax revenue would suddently be a huge boon to the tax rolls. My God. People should not be aloud to vote in this country if they are too lazy to read up on issues or are too stupid to comprehend them.

[Johnny]

Please tell me the goobers of this area are not going to vote for a stadium....
Inferior product, and to put this kind of money into this is idiotic.
How about police and teachers?
Oh I forgot, we live in an area of sports minded idiots.,

[Justin Elza]

It's mighty generous of God to come down before each game and pick up all the cars that are already in most of those spaces and move them elsewhere!

[Justin Elza]

What a complicated way to "solve" a problem that doesn't even need to exist in the first place. Once again, trying to cram 10 pounds of stadium in a 5 pound sack.

[Mike Creyton]

Johnny. Only a goober would vote against this plan. First of all, it would generate MORE tax revenue for the city of St. Pete with out costing residents a dime. The Trop area would be redeveloped and would be much more useful than empty the parking lots that currently reside there. And if you don't like the product on the field, then you aren't paying attention. The national media has picked up on how good this team is why haven't you? I almost wish St. Pete was dumb enough to vote this down. The team belongs in Tampa anyway. This is a project most cities would die to have. It could really put St. Pete on the map. It is a win-win proposal in the truest sense.

[Sean]

How about police and teachers? To bad the money that would be used CAN'T BE USED IN THE GENERAL FUND. The money where this would come from would be from a fund that is for the redevelopment of downtown. It is only for that. Read up on the issue before you post incorrect facts Johnny and Kim.

Justin you bring up a valid point. Of those 7,000 spots not all would be available, but when doing a study that doesn't matter. Plus alot of places near Baywalk have parking lots soley for employee's during the day and they could rent them out for the evening games.

[Justin Elza]

Mike, again you demonstrate the disdain people who support this shady deal seem to have for the rest of us. Very classy!

Mr Sharockman, Your story on the Rays parking solution is just irresponsible journalism at its best. Why don’t you just start taking money from the Rays directly--oh wait, the Times already does.

Like I said, is the team relying on God to come down and pick up all the cars that are already in most of those spaces?

And who wants to park across town in a hospital parking lot and walk 15-25 minutes in the Florida heat all the way over to the game? God, you really are carrying on the tenacious tradition of the free press, aren’t you?

What a waste.

[Susan]

Mike Creyton..What makes you think anything built at the Trop site will be an economic boom to the area? The city will probably have to give tax breaks to anything that is built on the site. Retail will not work there and thats proven by the shopping center off 9th street near the Trop and the turn around of small businesses around the Trop now..They should relocate near Gandy/Roosevelt. St. Pete cannot build a fan base on its own, thats proven over time, so make the ballpark more accessable from other cities. Just in case you wondered, yes I go to games, but certainly will not walk blocks downtown to get there (totally unsafe). Onsite parking is the only way to go down here.

[Justin Elza]

Sean, when doing a study that certainly does matter.

And how many games will begin at a time such that all the work traffic/parking will have time to clear out before all the game traffic/parking comes in?

That too would be an important consideration.

Also, how many spots would have to be roped off the night before or morning of a game? How will that impact hardworking citizens?

As I said before, the Florida heat is a major factor if we're expecting people to walk for half an hour with all their game day gear and their kids, etc.

Inclement weather (not to mention lightning) is also something that needs to be considered.

A good journalist would have hit on all these points rather than just doing a press release for the Rays.

[Mike Creyton]

Ok Justin. If people like you want to vote this plan down, then please vote to let the Rays out of their lease so they can move to Tampa. I can GUARANTEE you that Tampa would approve a similar plan in a heartbeat. If St. Pete wants to continue to be a sleepy retirement town,not a vibrant city, and take a backseat to Tampa, then vote no. I live in Tampa, but want what is best for the entire Bay Area. This stadium and redevelopment would be great for St. Pete and great for the entire bay area. I guess you'd rather have Al Lang sit vacaant and have the Trop stay as well...the Trop. If you think that's best, well vot no. Tampa is salivating for a chance to get the Rays over here.

[kitty]

Mike Creyton, are you blind AND ignorant? There's far more property for sale in Pinellas than can be sold in a hundred years. There's no reason to tear down a perfectly good - not to mention relatively new - ballpark on the premise that someone will buy the property. That you put it up for sale does NOT mean they'll purchase it. If you've lived in St Pete for more than two years you would realize the severity of the real estate bust. The block of Central Avenue that used to house the State Theater was purchased by a developer who planned to build a highrise condo project. Not only could he NOT get funding for the new building, he was unable to secure funds to demolish the existing structures. Where there used to be vibrant businesses there's blight.

Watch business news on TV or read business news in the paper or on the internet. THERE'S NO MONEY TO LEND!!!

[Mike Creyton]

Hey Kitty. They already have a developer in place. One of the largest in the country. And guess what. The Rays have said if the projected # needed for the sale is deemed not attainable...the project will not move forward. And the real estate issue you are talking about is not only occuring in St. Pete, but in every city in America.

[tom]

First I think the reporting on this story stinks, no opinion just the facts. If it is suppose to hold 34,000 people where do they expect the rest of the people to park when they run out of parking for 14,000. On street parking estimate is lame too, what about the people that want to park to go to shops around there, there will be no parking for them.

It was ridiculous to think they built the dome where they did, it should be between Tampa and St.Pete maybe around Gandy. Someplace close to both cities would bring in more people. Lots more money down the toilet!

[Justin Elza]

Mike, I used to live in Tampa and, by choice, I moved to St Pete. I like it here better.

I don't want to see St Pete doing what Tampa would do and I certainly don't want to see St Pete become more like Tampa.

I also don't want to see Al Lang vacant, but nice red herring. I want to keep Al Lang field and turn the parking lot into parkland where Saturday Morning Market (which is good for downtown St Pete) could have its permanent home. The baseball field could be used for college and/or community teams. Now that IS St Pete!

By the way, St Pete is doing just fine as it is but I appreciate your derogatory comments about our cool little city. Just ask the New York Times, who did an article last year about how we're becoming such a great place to live.

What we need is more of the same (which IS working) not something drastically, uncharacteristically different.

[Joe]

The Rays should buy the USF-St Pete campus. The enrollment is under 2000 students. It has 30 only more days to get accredited. Someone needs to make good use of the land. USF isn't......

[Joe]

The Rays should buy the USF-St Pete campus. The enrollment is under 2000 students. It has 30 only more days to get accredited. Someone needs to make good use of the land. USF isn't......

[Jason]

Justin - Susan if Bayfront and All Kids allows the use of their NEW parking garages it would be 5-10 minute walk max. I actually walk this route each and everyday and it is an enjoyable, TOTALY SAFE walk!

[steve]

I completely agree with Mike Creyton but unfortunately the retired people of Pinellas who just like to bit** about everything will vote this down. St. Pete does not deserve a major league baseball team. These new owners are really improving this team and have done everything they promised they would when they purchased the team.

[Justin Elza]

Jason, there's enough parking for 30,000 people in those garages? Wow!

Too bad no one can come visit those kids during that time thought, man they sure are mighty generous!

[Justin Elza]

Steve, except win more games.

[Joe]

Tom,

Did you even read the story or the exec summary of the parking study? On -street spaces are NOT included in the 14,000, and at 3 people per car, 14,000 spaces is more than enough. There are only 7,000 spaces at the Trop now.

[steve]

There are 14,000 parking spaces. All 34,000 fans that attend a game will not be driving seperate cars. Do you think the Bucs have 65,000 parking spaces for each seat they have in their stadium?

[Justin Elza]

And what proof do you have that its 3 people per car? Show me evidence that supports that. This is America man, get real.

And if memory serves, the Bucs have ginormous parking lots all around the stadium and still not enough room.

[kitty]

Mike, yes the real estate bust IS happening all over the country - an that is itself is enough of a reason to NOT waste taxpayer dollars on this unnecessary liability. The fact that they have a developer in place doesn't mean a thing. The money isn't there. Developers all over the country are scaling back their projects, or outright giving investors their money back. There's nothing wrong with the current ballpark and building a replacement a few blocks away is just dumb.

[Brent]

I think this would be so great for St Pete and especially for the business I own there and for my fellow business owners, but these Nay sayers are trying to push business and progress out of St Pete... Build a stadium in Tampa or Clearwater, those cities would be a better fit and not have all these negative people... Sad but it's true.

[kitty]

How much do you think the Rays are paying Mike Creyton to brow beat and insult those who don't agree with them? When will they learn that's no way to win supporters.

Mike, if you want the Rays so badly, lobby for their move to Tampa and pay for it yourself!

[kitty]

Brent, the business you own must not be in St. Pete - or anywhere in the Bay area for that matter, or you would realize THERE'S ALREADY A PERFECTLY GOOD NEARLY NEW STADIUM BUILT JUST FOR THE RAYS IN ST PETE!

[Justin Elza]

Mike, if the Trop were redeveloped and a bunch of new businesses moved in to that area, how do you think that would affect business already in that area? Its a no brainer (think Walmart vis-a-vis any small town in America) but please go ahead and argue otherwise.

And how good is it for downtown businesses when no one can park anywhere near your business (let alone get through all the traffic).

And this argument that people going to see a game will be good for local business is ridiculous. Study after study proves otherwise. People who go to games spend all their money getting to the game, buying tickets, and buying food, drink, and souvenirs inside the ballpark. By the time its all said and done, especially if you've been sitting in the Florida heat for 3-4 hours, you're ready to go home and take a shower/nap.

There are exceptions, but in general thats how it goes.

[steve]

Downtown Tampa would be a much better fit. The Rays would be able to draw more fans from the surrounding counties. And hopefully there wouldn't be as many negative individuals who will always attempt to stand in the way of progress. How can anyone with any baseball knowledge think that there is nothing wrong with the current stadium? Do you think free agents are attracted to the Trop? Do you think we will ever host an All-Star game at the Trop which generates millions of dollars for the hosting city?

[Brent]

Kitty... Interesting name, My guess that is either your stage name or you are probably as old as the Trop Looks. Let me guess born circa... 1900... :) Vote yes!!!

[Justin Elza]

Steve, that's a common misconception. Read this study if you want to know the real impact professional sports have on local economies:

http://creativeclass.typepad.com/thecreativityexchange/files/Stadium.pdf

[Kay]

Very well said, Justin. I like our sleepy town. Thank goodness we are not like Tampa! This would not even be possible in Tampa because they do not have the beautiful waterfront that we do - thanks to careful planning and lot's of protection by our citizens!
How about Little League regionals at Al Lang? There are many many things that could happen there if the powers that be would get a little creative... Fundraisers, Marching Band competitions, concerts, Graduations, etc.
Oh, btw, one of those 14,000 parking spaces downtown belongs to me. I pay monthly to park there for work and it is at my disposable 24/7. Anything I do downtown, that is where I park.
Street parking for businesses? Sure, for customers. I, and every other person working in my building cannot use those because they have a maximum time limit.
What do you think is going to happen when there is a game at night? I know that I won't be going to Baywalk or anywhere else downtown because of it. Unless I am going to a game. Which I do, but we already have agreed in our family that we do not want to attend outdoor summer games.
If destroying our waterfront will make us a "first class city", I'll settle for second class. I love my town!

[West]

Let's rebuke some of the comments here:

1. Mike Creyton shouldn't be allowed to vote either because he can't tell the difference between "allowed" and "aloud".

2. Tropicana field sucks and the Rays will never be successful in the stadium.

3. The Rays need to field a competitive team that can win 75-90 games a year.

4. There is no land around Gandy/Roosevelt on which to put a stadium.

5. There is no major area in Tampa for a stadium, and Channelside would have been perfect about 10 years ago.

6. If we have #3, #2 is still an issue (as is #1), and there is nothing we can do about #4.

So the facts are that the Rays need a new stadium adn the only logical place is Al Lang fields, which I support as long as the ownership FIRST fields a competitive team.

Oh, to also rebuke the motion that a redeveloped Tropicana field will be a retail mecca - dream on. Last thing the county needs is another outdoor mall ala Park Plaza. What they do need is affordable, urban housing and corporate sites, which could be very attractive long run.

[Biff]

What about Teachers or Fireman? Has it ever occured to you that 80% of teachers make the decision to work 9 out of 12 months. They also get every holiday under the sun off. Then they complain about $$$. Ironically, they chose the profession. I feel underpaid, I wonder if people will start feeling sorry for me???

[Mike Creyton]

I grew up in Maryland and saw first hand the benefits of a new downtown ballpark with Camden Yards. The Inner Harbor area boomed after that.

Look at the development along the Anacostia River in DC now that the new Nationals stadium is being built in that part of DC. That was one of the worst ghettos in America.

Time and time again it has been proven to work. This deal is even better as it costs the tax payers nothing.

We had this discussion with the Bucs not too long ago. We have another Super Bowl coming to town this year. How much money will that generate for the area? Imagine a Major League All Star game in St. Pete.

[Julian]

How much do you think the groups opposing the stadium are paying Kitty to brow beat and insult those who don't agree with them? When will they learn that's no way to win supporters.

[Justin Elza]

Brent and others, age discrimination (which is present in what you're writing) is on the same page as sexism and racism. Please show some class or at least use your whole name so we can attribute your discriminatory remarks to an actual person, rather than hiding behind the cloak of the internet like some coward/pevert.

[Justin Elza]

Hey Mike, good argument. Same thing they said about the Trop.

[Julian]

The park won't be built for several years and by then the Rays will have a good ball club.

[steve]

Justin, At least you have some evidence to defend your view. I don't agree with it but at least you are not like the majority and just want to whine about something they have no clue about. Like the people who claim "There's nothing wrong with the current ballpark".Have these people ever been to a real MLB park?

I on the other hand saw first hand the positive impact that Camden Yards made in Baltimore and the Verizon Center made in downtown DC.

[john]

You all are real dumb, and I bet the SP times forum staff won't print this. Ha!

[Justin Elza]

Sometimes what we say about other says more about us than it does about them.

[Kay]

The funny thing is, every single argument in support of this new ballpark idea are the SAME EXACT ONES USED FOR THE ORIGINAL BALLPARK (Trop).
I keep hearing about how the Trop isn't suitable for baseball (funny, that is why it was built) but not one person has been able to tell me why.
So, tell us, why is it not suitable? It has all the bases and the home plate. The seats are not real comfortable but there is plenty of food and drink available for purchase.

[Julian]

Because it was built by a city hoping to bring in a team. Therefore, they cared more about getting in built rather than the experience that would be given off by attending a game. Now the owners have been working to improve this team into a class operation and realize thier best chance would be in a real ball park. Why do you think that everyone who writes about baseball makes fun of the Trop?

[Greg]

Mike, you are in dire need of a reality check!

[Justin Elza]

Mike and Steve, you both saw firsthand the Camden center in Maryland and also mention DC as a perfect example. Coincidence?

[Justin Elza]

Everyone makes fun of the Trop because it is where the Rays play. There are other stadiums out there very much like the Trop.

I agree, the Trop isn't that great. For one, they need to lose those frickin' catwalks.

I'm not opposed, necessarily, to a new stadium (if they pay for the bulk of it themselves) but I don't want to see one where Al Lang is now. 10 pounds of stadium in a five pound sack.

Gateway might be a better location because its closer to Tampa. I've heard Toytown thrown out there.

St Pete rocks right now! We don't need a stadium downtown to make us a good city, we are a good city. We need to stay true to ourselves and this stadium, in this location just simply does not do that.

[Terry]

I was fortunate enough to be able to attend a ball game at Wrigley Field last year. There is almost no parking around the ballpark. I (and my family) rode a bus there and back. Park and ride works, is environmentally friendly, and visually is far superior to parking garages or acres of empty lots surrounding a stadium that is used only 81 times a year. Parking solutions are easy.

[JR]

Hey West, are you blind also or do you not see the several hundred acres along I-275 and Roosevelt formerly known as Toytown???????? How about the several hundred undeveloped acres left in Carillon????? Are you serious??? Why not make the team more accessible to ALL the fans of the Tampa Bay area and quit trying to turn downtown St Pete into freaking BOSTON!!!!

And Mike Creyton must be Rick Baker's online screen name. Seriously dude, give it a rest. The voters ARE GOING to tell you that you're wrong, just watch and see.

And for the record, this has very little to do with the old farts in Bayfront Tower, et al. But I can see those residents' point, unlike some of you who don't care about anyone but your baseball fever'd up, $9.00 12oz beer drinking selves. I am a 41 y/o season ticket holder for the Rays, who is also a native of St. Petersburg (born @ St Anthony's) and a local small business owner.

Let's make a few more points besides the OBVIOUS destruction of our waterfront: So the Rays find a buyer for the Trop....wonderful...what are they going to put there? Housing? Good luck getting financial backing when there's thousands of homes/condos for sale in Pinellas already, and empty BRAND NEW condos downtown that they can't even sell. Retail? Hell, they can barely keep the Central Plaza area from returning to a blighted area as well as further east around the current Trop district!!!

Some of you supporting this nightmare stadium plan really should open your eyes to other options, because there ARE other options out there. Toytown or Carillon could support the parking, the traffic, and also the businesses that surround them. Not to mention the ease of access from our neighbors in central & northern Pinellas, as well as Hillsborough & Manatee fans. It would probably cost a lot less too.

One thing is for sure, the voters of this city are not going to allow our waterfront to be ruined by an ugly, out of place monstrosity with a sail for a roof and a giant lightning rod in center field. Good luck walking 7+ blocks to/from the All Children's parking garage (or South-Core, or Mid-Core for that matter) in a LIGHTNING STORM for a baseball game, you idiots!!!

Do you realize downtown has become a residential district? You REALLY think the residents downtown want to hear 14,000 screaming fans when they just tried to shut down Fresco's for a freaking live band INSIDE??? Y'all are on some serious crack IMHO

[Julian]

Jusitn

Name one stadium like the Trop out there. Also, if they could just "take out the catwalks" don't you think they would have.

There is more waterfront park in downtown St. Pete then anywhere else in the state so I am sick of hearing people argue about park space.

[Justin Elza]

Terry, Chicago has one of the best public transit systems in the country. You don't need to worry about Parking anywhere in Chi Town, for the most part. Same is true for San Francisco.

Big apples and small oranges.

[Truth]

JR

Nice ramble but the fact that you stated that someone in favor of the plan must be Rick Baker made me laugh. Everyone knows he hasn't come out in favor of the paln.

[West]

Carillon does not have the room. Do you really want to put the stadium along 275 next to the dump? That proposal was floated once and probably the stupidest idea I've heard come from here. There is no room along the Gandy corridor unless you plan on tearing down residences and building a suburban ballpark which is definately not what the area needs. I strongly support a waterfront park, and somewhere in north St. Pete is idea, but there just isn't the room.

I live in Tampa too, but for a quality experience I will happily drive to downtown St. Pete. We should remember that ballparks do not create business alone - a winning team is a requirement. For now we are missing that part and I am tired of the empty promises for the past 5-6 years.

[Matthew]

According to the current Ray's contract with the City, the City could develop around the Trop right now. Thus, people would get the redevelopment they want and not have to give all the money from the sale of the land and future taxes to a for profit corporation from New York.
These guys are smart stockbrokers. They made their fortunes with other peoples' money now they want to make even more with ours. Did no one read Aaron's article on Sunday about what the Trop has really cost the taxpayers? It was supposed to be 87 million and it's cost us 233+ million thus far. There are many web sites that point out that, once a team has a new stadium their franchise doubles and sometimes triples. Don't you see that's what these financial whiz kids want to do?
Get a new stadium, sell the team and keep the money they made off our backs.
Will they give the city back any of the huge increase in their franchise value when they sell. Doubtful

[Justin Elza]

In terms of nondescript domed stadiums, to name a few: Astrodome, Edward Jones Dome, Georgia Dome, RCA Dome.

Point is, its not that different than other stadiums out there.

[Kim]

Tear Derby Lane down and put it there!! Nobody goes to greyhound racing anymore they're all at the Hard Rock now!!

Not in MY downtown. I vote hell no.

[steve]

coincidence. But you should visit that area to see those great stadiums.

[Julian]

Justin,

You do realize you listed a former ball park that has been replaced by a new one and three Domes used for football right? Good Point!!!

[Justin Elza]

Julian, you realize they are all still in use, three of them for professional sports teams, right?

And the fact that there's so much waterfront park downtown IS what makes St Pete so great. People like you want to change St Pete into something else. People like me love it here and want to protect it. Bottom line.

Fortunately, there's more of me than there are of you.

[kitty]

West, it's a better idea to put a new stadium on the site of the old landfill than to fill it up with "affordable" housing, which is what County officials were proposing recently.

[Jimbo]

Justin,

The only other dome used in baseball right now is the HHH dome in Minneapolis. That, too, is ranked toward the bottom of the stadiums (the Trop and HHH are always "fighting" for last place). That's why the Twins are getting a new stadium. Do their residents complain about having to walk to a new stadium in April when it can still snow in the Twin Cities? No, and I sure as hell would hate to walk in ankle-deep snow to a game, much more so than dealing with a little sun, but I would to support my team, and apparently they would, too.

Your examples, as Julian pointed out, suck otherwise. Continue the fear-mongering and spreading the lies, Justin. POWW and One Beach Dr must pay you a hefty ransom for your integrity.

[Reader]

Thanks for that link Justin - the findings presented on p. 248 of teh journal were interesting: "[T]he negative effect of an MLB team is significant only in
the short-run"

[Paul]

Why is there this sudden 'add vibrancy to downtown' mentality? I live very near here, and work here downtown, and really like it here. I too have a parking spot for work, which I found was marked as empty on the weekends in the parking study/report. Guess my spot was just taken from me. I'll let my boss know that our employees won't be in the office on the weekends because our spots were just taken by the Rays. By the way, I'm in the Coast Bank bldg. Thanks to whoever did this 'study' that I'm sure I, a St Pete resident, just helped paid for. Also, I participate in the St. Anthony's triathlon. That was categorized in the study as a 'small event' that would only require 1,000 to 1,500 parking spots. Interesting because the participation is about 4,800 people, not including the hundreds people who work the race and prepare for it. Also stated was a non-overlap in times because the race is on a weekend morning. Not correct. The race has events starting on Friday afternoon running through late Sunday afternoon with the actual race itself on Sunday morning. My point is, this study was done in haste and does not consider the people who live and play in St Pete and shouldn't be viewed as accurate but as a propaganda piece to further the Ray's and our City's efforts to jam this down our throats as fast as they can. We have the Trop, we owe money on it, the Ray's knew what they were buying. Our Mayor, City Council and the Rays can take this deal and go for a long walk off the end of the Pier with it. Now lets get onto enjoying our beautiful downtown and watch it grow organically.

[Damien]

Justin, stellar examples of architecure you mentioned. By the way, Houston has a new stadium, so the Astrodome only houses people from New Orleans now.

People on this blog don't seem to realize that Toytown is a landfill, so it will cost MORE to build there. Also, its not downtown, thus revenue from the Trop redevelopment CANNOT fund a ballpark there. That means citizens pay for a Toytown stadium, as opposed to a downtown site within the TIF district where Trop revenue could be used and we could avoid diverting existing taxes.

An no.....I don't work for the City or the Rays. I represent the silent majority of voters who want progress over status quo. See you in November.

[Ken Smith]

Justin: The article you linked to does not support your point. The researchers looked at whether a pro sports franchise raises per capita income in a city (in other words, they asked whether Mr. Jones will earn more money in his same job after the team moves into town, than he did before they moved into town). I don't think anyone would argue that it does, and it's the type of misguided analysis you typically see in the academic writing on this subject; it also ignores the crucial distinction between cause-and-effect and mere correlation. The article does NOT examine the types of economic development that Steve from Baltimore and so many others who support this proposal know: if done the right way, a stadium can and will spur the renewal and growth of an entire neighborhood and, in so doing, raise surrounding property owners' property values, bring in new businesses, and contribute new tax revenues to city and county coffers that are generated not just by the economic activity occurring on the stadium site, but all around it. That's what Steve and others mean when they say this proposal is a "no-brainer." And I agree, not just because I'm a Rays fan and a St. Pete resident, but because it means progress and growth for the entire community. And no guys, I don't work for the Rays; I just bothered to read the info that's available and learn the facts before posting. I wish some of the folks who insist on posting here would do us all the courtesy of doing the same.

[Just Slapped]

When I read Bayfront was offering help with the parking issue, I almost choked. As a disabled employee I park at All Children's. I once asked if I could park in the Suncoast disabled parking lot at night because of the enclosed ramp when it rains, I was told "NO."

[Bill]

The waterfront stadium will be a tremedous economic boon to St. Pete. The national attention is very positive. Many cities would kill for this type of opportunity. St. Pete is very forturnate for this wonderful opportunity. The cranky old-timers here should not be allowed to vote due to the pure ignorance of not understanding the facts - and being so clueless to the positive impact this will have. I can't wait for this to happen. Let's get this stadium built!

[kitty]

Well, it's obvious the Rays pay people to insult those who won't kowtow to their ridiculous whims. Brent, you didn't address my comments but went straight to childish insults. For the record, I'm 41, not that my age has anything to do with the fact that I don't like seeing my hometown and it's residents ripped off by snake-oil salesmen.

Justin, as a lifelong SP resident, NOBODY needs to pay me to say what I've known for years. There is nothing wrong with the current stadium. If the Rays don't like it, they can take their ball and go elsewhere. Good riddance to bad trash!

[Julian]

Justin,

The elitist tone of the defending of your position is comical. You think because of the way you percieve St. Pete to be is the correct one that no change can be made if you think that will go against your view. Well, fortunately we live in a deomcracy. I was born and raised in St. Pete as well and I am proud of it, but according to you I am not in favor of what is good for St. Pete because I disagree with you.

All good points.

[Reader]

The "total cost" article recently published by the times is really just a discussion of the time value of money. For those of you with 30 year mortgages, take the purchase price of your current home and compare it to 360*your monthly payment. I doubt you'll get a ratio much different than 85:223.

[Julian]

Oh and Kitty please stop with the "Rays" people are out bloging against you...just because some has a different opinion than you doens't mean that they are being paid.

[Paul]

I agree Kitty, the Rays are very likely paying kids to post negatives on here. This is a turkey deal, the Rays know it, the Mayor has his pants in a wad hoping he gets a political boost out of it and there's the state's most powerful lobbyists somewhere there in the background as well, doing whatever voodooo law bending things it is they do to get things like this built. Just baffling our City is being hijacked like this.

[Jimbo]

Kitty,

If you need your points explained, see my blog posts here: http://itsyourtimes.com/?q=node/3463#comments

"Past ≠ future: Posted 1/23/08

Yes, I completely understand why my neighbors here in St. Pete are jaded. They (rightfully) feel betrayed because of all the "empty promises" they felt like they got from the Trop. It didn't revitalize the Gas Plant like promised, and the team that was moved in there sucked for 10 years. But, as someone who comes from Philly, might be able to explain why the Trop didn't live up to some of the promises (though it did hold a few), because we're having the same problem there:

The Sports Complex in Philly is home to all four teams, and all four have their stadia on that site: Lincoln Financial Field, Citizens Bank Park, the Wachovia Center, and the Spectrum. If you look here, you'll see the same problem we have here (just on a grander scale): a sea of parking does not help an area. People drive to the game, park their cars, go into the stadium, leave the stadium, get back in their cars, and drive home. As you can see around the Sports Complex, save for one housing complex, it's mainly industrial. There's no retail, really no bars, and nothing to do outside of sports.

The bulk of downtown parks that work (AT&T Park in San Fran, Camden Yards in Baltimore, Fenway Park in Boston) force people to either park a distance away from the stadium, or take mass transit. This helps because the businesses benefit tremendously from spontaneous foot traffic. Whether teams win or lose, the owners can count on people coming in on a whim and grabbing a beer, buying a last-minute gift, ordering a sandwich, or anything else to spend money.

That's why businesses have failed around the Trop. Not because the area where it's located is "destined to remain a wasteland," as I've heard some people say. It's because no one wants to walk anywhere, myself included, if their car's 100 ft from them. We get into our cars, drive out, and go to the bar or restaurant closest to our house, since it's "on the way" back home. Ferg's survives only because it has a walkway right to it (it's technically the "Baseball Walk of Fame", starts at Al Lang, goes down Central, and ends at the Trop, but who knows that?). The rest failed because no one had to walk by them to get to their cars.

This is why the new stadium and subsequent redevelopment of the Trop work. The new stadium will have limited on-site parking, so the majority of fans would have to walk, take a shuttle, or use PSTA (which would improve their service if they know they'll be making money from this venture). People will have to walk past the great shops, restuarants, pubs, and other retail places on Central and Beach Dr, and will be more likely to spend spontaneous cash, thus helping to boost the economy. The redeveloped Trop site would be a boon unto itself, providing tax money where there hasn't any generated in the past 20 years. IMHO, 45% of anything is better than 45% of zero. And that's 80 acres to tax, so that "anything" will be much larger than the naysayers like to predict. And lastly, it keeps condos from being built on Al Lang and helps boost the notoriety of the Mahaffey and the new Dalí when they can be seen in shots of the city during the All-Star Game (which MLB already said they will bring here should we build it).

Weather is a non-issue being made an issue by naysayers. One of the hottest experiences of my life was not here, but in DC. 100° at 11AM on the steps of the Capitol made me want to jump into the disgusting water of the Reflecting Pool. That day topped out at about 107° w/94% humidity (heat index: 119+°), yet, RFK still had at least 15-20K people there to root for their Nationals. It's never gotten that hot down here, and the day it happens, the End will be near. Yes, we get random t-storms during the summer, but that's what the Sail is for. Besides, the vast majority of games will be 7:05 or later, well after the heat of midday is gone and most of the t-storms have past through, too. So, weather is made to be an issue by people looking for excuses not to build it. If you can't handle 96° at 1PM, then you need to move to Norway or Siberia, the only places I can think of that won't ever get that hot, because it sure does get more oppressive up north.

Here's why the Trop did work: it got a us an MLB team (some people may dispute that they're an MLB-grade team, but as the title reads, past ≠ future) despite being one of the smallest cities in the country to host one (but 12th-largest media market), it helped bring name recognition to the city by hosting the NCAA Final Four there, and, along with BayWalk, helped boost the economy (and trigger the building boom) enough for the Grand Prix to move into town. It wasn't exactly the end-all-be-all that it was touted, but it did help turn a sleep waterfront retirement community into a real hot-spot destination of people 18-35, the ones with the disposable income.

So, I truly believe Stu & Co are trying to do good here. Yeah, some may call it "Corporate Welfare", or some may say it'll destroy the waterfront, while others still say, "this was promised before," but for all the reasons I listed, I believe this is their way for atoning for the sins of the past, and not more broken promises fed to an already cynical city. The current owners see what this city could become, and if it makes me a "mark" to believe them, then so be it. I know that once this all plays out and people start reading the facts instead of listening to baseless claims, more people will be on board. You can't please everybody, but as long as the majority are happy, the rest will come to see that this is a step in the right direction."

[JR]

Hey Damien, the Toytown site is being considered for a mixed use RESIDENTIAL DEVELOPMENT, (but it's not suitable for a ballpark?)..and you're right it WAS a landfill. Why don't YOU buy a house there when they're built, then you can be right next the on-ramp to 275 to get to your traffic jam on 1st Ave S for a game at the waterfront park that the taxpayers of this city are not going to support?

[Jerry]

Kitty,

"snake-oil salesmen" and "Good riddance to bad trash!"????? Didn't you just criticize someone for making childish insults? Please stop the hypocrisy, get out of the way, and prepare for this City to break into the national spotlight and join the 21st Century. You'll have a nice view of St Pete kickng Tampa's butt from your window in Bayfront Tower.

[Jason]

If You Build it, They Will Come!!!

VOTE - Yes all they way.

[Brian]

Everyone, this stadium will make it more enjoyable as fans to watch a game. My favorite stadium in the country is AL Lang Field. Why? Because it reminds me how beautiful St. Pete really is by looking out over the Bay. Now does Tampa have that? NO! Their downtown is pretty much built up and is no where close to ours. Also, as far as people talking about how Tampa would suppor the Rays better than St. Pete. Give me a break! It all comes down to winning and losing. Let me remind Tampa that they did not suppor the Bucs when they were losing. Remeber Orlando wanting to take over the Bucs when no one would come to the games in the 80's and early 90's. Also, St. Pete has a record of supporting teams that win such as the Storm and the Lightning. Both teams played in the dome and they actually held/hold records in their respective leagues for attendance.

[Anon]

West. It's notion, not motion. And you spelled "and" wrong. No vote for you! I am grateful, though, that you say you will drive from Tampa to St. Pete for a good game. It gets old listening to Tampans complain about crossing the bridge.

Kim. Derby Lane is privately owned. And makes loads of money for its owners, as it is packed every night of the week.

[Stephen]

Jimbo, the Philly (Boston, Chicago, Baltimore) mentality doesn't fly down here. That's why people move here (from places like those) in droves. It's because we haven't sold-out our waterfront to a couple greedy stockbrokers with their hands in our city council/mayor's pockets!!! Those of you supporting a "newer" stadium have a choice, live with the Trop as it is, or move back to one of those "great cities" you came from. And for all of you that think this is some kind of battle between Tampa and St Pete, take the damn the team to Tampa, you can have them. I'll be relaxing on the seawall in front of Al Lang Stadium watching the Grand Prix while you're stuck in traffic on Dale Mabry or Ashley drive waiting to get to a baseball game featuring the worst team in the league!!!

[Justin Elza]

Jimbo, no one pays me anything. And if you want to question my integrity, perhaps you'd prefer to do it in person.

[Andrew Post]

Many of the parking spots that the Rays traffic people identified as available actually belong to people who keep their boats at Demens Landing. For those of us who live aboard our boats these spots are like our driveway and garage. How would you like it if some sports team said to you, sorry, we're having a game, you'll have to empty out your garage and drive. And what of professors and students at USF? They need parking for night classes, summer classes and their work? Are the Rays going to kick them out too? And what if someone, say, needed to work late at All Childrens' (can we say night staff? How many of you went to the hospital at 8 pm?) or wanted to visit their sick child at 7:30. Clearly the Rays hired guns have stretched their imaginations and given away spots that belong to others.

[Justin Elza]

Elitist tone? I'm using words like ginormous and frickin', how is that elitist? I want St Pete to stay St Pete because I love St Pete. Well, actually there is one thing I would change, and its about downtown too. Instead of worrying so much about baseball, I wish our city would take care of the homeless problem once and for all.

[Scott]

Should the park be turned out towards the water?

[Julian]

Stephen,

I am supporting the new stadium and I am from St. Pete as well. I am so sick of those against the stadium parading as if thier view is that of the St. Pete citizen.

[Julian]

I want St. Pete to have progress because I love St. Pete.

[Jimbo]

Then don't question anyone's motives if that's how you feel, Justin. Just because people disagree with you doesn't mean they're wrong. I don't think anyone who doesn't like the idea of a stadium where there's always been a stadium is wrong. I just think arguing with made-up studies, fictitious numbers, and invalid statements is wrong. So, you lay off the personal attacks and stick to the facts. I'm a numbers man, myself.

[Stephen]

Julian, you are the minority and that will be proven to you when this goes to the voters. Good luck with that!

[West]

Not to get off topic, but Merriam-Webster defines motion as 2: an impulse or inclination of the mind or will.....so both motion and notion are correct.

Why don't we stop the bikering and put the team in Brandon at the corner of I-75 and the Crosstown.

[kitty]

jerry, there's a difference between calling a spade a spade and ad hominem attacks, but you knew that.

I wish I could afford to live in bayfront tower, but I work for a living.

[Justin Elza]

Ken, would you like other studies then if per capita doesn't suit you (by the way, local businesses factor in to per capita, both in terms of what they make and what they are able to pay)?

How about some research from the Cato Institute?

[LoriO]

You guys all sound like a bunch of Red Sox fans...calm down, all of you. I think it is fair to say that the plan has pro's and con's, parking being a huge con and the money this could make for the city a huge pro. Nothing is ever perfect, though, you have to meet somewhere in the middle. Waterside stadium would be nice, but it is such a small space to build..

[kitty]

julian, it's no secret the rays paid people to come to City Hall in support of the team. This is just more of the same.

[Justin Elza]

Jimbo, what personal attacks? The very fact that people are arguing means one thinks they're right and the other wrong. Does that mean I think people who support the stadium are evil idiots? No, just wrong, that's all. But notice I'm not hiding behind a moniker either. I'm Justin Elza. I speak for myself and am not paid by anyone for my opinions.

[Ken Smith]

Kitty: I don't want to insult you, but I think if you choose to post here, it's entirely fair to point out that every post that you've authored is facutally incorrect, usually on multiple levels. If you seek an elevated discourse about an important public issue, you should at least educate yourself about the facts first. Or maybe you have, and the facts simply don't fit your agenda. That's one thing I've noticed here -- most of the proposal's detractors want to throw all sorts of mud at the city and the Rays as having a private profit motive or being less than truthful (desite there being absolutely no evidence of deception here); nobody seems to ask about the selfish interests that some of the most vocal opponents have. Take Bayfront Towers for example. Most of its residents are only seasonal residents; they don't vote here, and they don't earn their livelihoods in our community for the 8-9 months out of the year when they are back home in Chicago, Minneapolis, or wherever. Why should they care whether there's more econmic activity -- they just come here for a vacation, so they want it quiet.

And here's another thing Kitty -- the Trop was NOT built for the Rays. The Trop was built years before the Rays even existed, and decades before the current owners got involved. When it was built, baseball people were not involved in the design process, nor were the experts who designed and would soon build some of the great new stadiums that have worked so well in other cities like Baltimore, Denver, etc. If someone made and broke promises about what the Trop would be, or how it would benefit the community, it certainly was NOT the Rays or the team's owners.

Nobody seriously believes the Trop is even a passable ballpark, much less a good one. National broadcasters and print journalists treat it with scorn; it's consistently ranked as the worst place to watch baseball in the country -- and in one of the most beautiful cities in the country! The Rays spend millions of dollars every year just to keep the Trop minmially useful, and still the plumbing backs up and pieces of concrete fall from the ceilings.

If you don't want a baseball team in St. pete, just say so. But don't pretend that it's sustainable for the Rays to keep playing there for the long run. It's not gonna happen. Either the voters buy into what the Rays are proposing -- which by the way, requires the least public investment of just about any stadium proposal in the nation over the last 20 years -- or resign yourselves to the fact that at some point in the next few years, another City will lure the Rays away with an offer that will allow the team to thrive.

[Justin Elza]

Ken, you are quite a typer!

Great, build a new stadium. Just not on the Al Lang site. Again, lets not stuff 10 pounds of stadium in a 5 pound sack.

Also, public land being sold is not a private investment, it's a public investment. Besides, when do things EVER cost what they are originally supposed to?

[Jeff Gilbert]

Why do we allow any growth? Change is bad, unless it involves the addition of a farmer's market (for all of St. Pete's farmers), or another park. Man, I wish there was some park space along the water in St Pete that I could go lay a blanket on and take a nap. Why is this even an issue, we never wanted baseball here in the first place. That's why we built a huge prison like structure right of I275- to scare away any teams thinking of moving here. I think its great that tax payers are paying the debt service on the Trop, and I would certainly not appreciate anyone coming along with an idea to extract us from this fine marriage! Stay classy Tampa Bay!

[kitty]

LoriO, why would moving the stadium mean more money for the city? Moving a few blocks and leaving a huge blighted area in the middle of downtown isn't going to change the fact that the rays aren't a very good team.

No matter how you try to spin it, lenders don't have money to lend! Developers all over the country are scaling back on projects or outright cancelling them and refunding investors' money. Yes, the dome WOULD be destroyed and a new stadium WOULD be built, but all that land in the middle of SP will sit empty. If I owned one of those expensive townhomes across from the Trop, I'd be pretty angry because I paid top dollar for location. If this plan goes through I'd be looking at a huge no man's land. Good thing I'm poor!

[Paul]

Ken, Interesting points. My response is, the Rays bought it, the Rays can fix it. It is not the 'City of St Petersburg Rays'. We don't own it, the Rays owners do and they can do whatever they want with their 'product'. (how horrible is that to hear, 'product')... its not even baseball anymore. I digress... I could give a flying rat's butt if the Rays stay here or move to Russia. A city of 250,000 people very well may not be the place for a MLB team if it comes right down to it. They are very very very smart guys who own the team and I'm 100% sure they knew exactly what they were buying.

[Justin Elza]

Jeff, sarcasm rocks! Super classy!

So what is it you want? A new stadium for the Rays? Would that make your life complete? Hmmm?

Great, go find a suitable location, get the Rays to foot most of the bill, and build away!

Just don't cram that alien sailboat where it really don't fit!

[Jeff Gilbert]

Perhaps, kitty, you are poor because you think like a poor person. Sucessful people don't think of what is not possible, they are positive people. If only the Ray's ownership had some people with Wall Street experience- perhaps someone like that might know how to get a deal done. Oh well, I guess we'll never get to find out....

[Julian]

Justin,

If you type "lets not stuff 10 pounds of stadium in a 5 pound sack"once more I am going to go insane. Are you just hoping if you put it enough times someone will put it as the featured comment.

Kitty,

If you knew anything about this team you would know that it has the youngest core of good talent in baseball and is only going to improve over the years to come. But why pay attention to that when you can just keep throwing out the convient stats of their past rather than looking to the futre.

[kitty]

Ken Smith, if the rays didn't like the stadium they could have gone elsewhere.

Frankly, I don't like my house. I bought 4 years ago at the height of the boom after being outbid on 4 other much nicer homes by speculators and investors. Now here we are 4 years later and according to the county property appraiser's office my vintage 1958 home is worth 25% less than I owe on the mortgage, and I believe I deserve a much nicer place. I can afford a much higher mortgage, but there's no way I could hope to sell my current home.

Maybe I should hire some "supporters" to lobby the Mayor of St Pete and he'll agree to "invest" in my property so I can move to a nicer home.

[kitty]

Actually, Jeff Gilbert I'm quite comfortable, but thanks for your concern. Even if I had millions of dollars to toss on the bon fire, my attitude would still be that I couldn't afford this boondoggle to people who are already millionaires.

[Ken Smith]

Kitty at 3:41 p.m. -- yet another fabrication. I was there. Bayfront Towers was out in force against the project; a few team officials were sequestered away from the main hearing room wathching on closed-circuit tv; a large number of construction workers gathered out front to support the proposal -- probably at the behest of the local union boss.

Which, by the way, reminds me of another point: did anyone notice the unemployment figures that came out Friday -- we lost nearly 8000 construction jobs in this region in the last 6 months due in large part to the downturn in new home construction and the real estate market generally. A new ballpark and a mixed-use development on the Trop site could keep alot of those newly-unemployed carpenters, bricklayers, etc. working, paying taxes, and frequenting local businesses. See, Kitty, that was a point based on FACTS, not stuff I made up. And I don't think those union workers live in Bayfront Towers either . . .

[Jeff Gilbert]

Sometimes, Justin, the only way to deal with insular people is to have a laugh at their expense. You can lead an idiot to water, but unfortunately you are not allowed to drown them in it.

[Paul]

Justin, that is absolutely spot-on hilarious, 'alien sailboat'! I've been searching for an accurate, yet somewhat insulting name for that freak show carnival stand they're looking to trash up our beautiful city with. Mind if I use that term? I'm suprised we don't have a nice little nick name for the 320 ft. vertical structure that will be an eyesore for sure. Maybe the 'alien sailboat' is going to be remote controlled by the Rays from their digs on Wall Street.

[kitty]

julian, if you're so hot for a new stadium, pay for it yourself and DON'T even think about putting it on public land. I don't have a problem with a new stadium, but I DO have a problem with my tax dollars going to support millionaires.

[Julian]

Good one Kitty I will pay for it with my own money...got me there...

[Julian]

oh yea and lets not put a public stadium on public land...every other stadium is on private land that is the way to go.

[kitty]

julian, if you're so hot for a new stadium, pay for it yourself and DON'T even think about putting it on public land. I don't have a problem with a new stadium, but I DO have a problem with my tax dollars going to support millionaires.

[pity kitty]

YOUR tax dollars ARE supporting millionaires RIGHT NOW, kitty. YOUR tax dollars have absolutely NOTHING to do with the proposal for the new stadium. The tax dollars for the new stadium DON'T EXIST right now.

[kitty]

This is for the pro-new stadium folks. No insults or ad hominem attacks, just a straight answer:

If the trop is demolished, where is the money going to come from to redevelop the land?

Banks don't have money to lend, and after bernake's move this morning, foreign investors are going to be even less likely to pony up.

[Jeff Gilbert]

I am swayed. I think we should do everything in our power to maintain the staus quo. Once the Rays leave, we can keep paying the debt service on the bonds we took out to build the Trop (after all, we did build it without a team) and then hold car shows in it until we can finally get the San Fransisco Giants to move here like they promised. Wait, what am I saying? I hate baseball, how about a 3 month boat show? Or maybe an indoor farmer's market?

[kitty]

pity kitty, no my tax dollars aren't being siphoned up by the rays YET, but if this proposal is approved, it sure will be.

Yes, I realize my tax dollars provide corporate welfare to millionaires, and it's time that ended. Putting the kibosh on this boondoggle is a good start.

[Justin Elza]

Julian, what's wrong with 10 pounds of stadium in a 5 pound sack? It sums up the situation perfectly. Would you prefer 100 pounds of stadium in a 50 pound sack?

Hey, you people who say the Trop sucks and that we need a new stadium have a perfectly valid point, the problem is your if then conclusion makes no sense. If we need a new stadium then we must put it on the water downtown?

No.

Have the Rays foot most of the bill and have them put it somewhere that wouldn't entail 1000 pounds of stadium in a 500 pound sack.

[Jim Dietrich (aka Jimbo)]

Justin,

You proved my point on both accounts. You made personal attacks as you have about Mark and Steve being the same person (just because they use great examples that are the same automatically makes one a sock puppet?), and then proceeded to put words in my mouth ("evil idiots"?) while considering everyone who opposes you wrong (the EXACT QUOTE: "Does that mean I think people who support the stadium are evil idiots? No, just wrong, that's all.").

I don't, nor will I ever, believe that anyone who opposes the idea is wrong. It's their God-given right to have free-will and think for themselves, and I applaud anyone who's not lead around like a sheep and following what others do. If, however, you try to make your argument known on baseless rumors and made-up statistics to try and persuade people who haven't formulated their own opinion, you're damn right I'll call you out on it.

Stop the fear-mongering and listen to the facts:

- Increased tax base,
- Restoring glory to a decimated neighborhood,
- Attracting visitors from around the world during the summer, our worst tourist time,
- Shot in the arm of an economy that's going nowhere fast,
- No rain delays because of sail,
- Most games at night, so lower heat,
- Affordable housing that doesn't smell like a dumpster (Toytown??? HA!!!)
- Saving a piece of waterfront land from becoming an annex to the Bayfront Tower,
- Easy ingress/egress from I-175/I-375 (if the Grand Prix can do it w/50-100K, why can't the Rays w/34K?)
- Venue that would be used more than 81x a year, and best of all,
- NO NEW TAXES!!!

Still waiting for some cons here....

[Justin Elza]

Julian, what's wrong with 10 pounds of stadium in a 5 pound sack? It sums up the situation perfectly. Would you prefer 100 pounds of stadium in a 50 pound sack?

Hey, you people who say the Trop sucks and that we need a new stadium have a perfectly valid point, the problem is your if then conclusion makes no sense. If we need a new stadium then we must put it on the water downtown?

No.

Have the Rays foot most of the bill and have them put it somewhere that wouldn't entail 1000 pounds of stadium in a 500 pound sack.

[Justin Elza]

Jim, fearmongering. Really?

Thanks for using your real name though, I respect that.

Here's some cons off the top of my head:

-Environmental impact
-Downtown gridlock
-Parking nightmare
-Long term cost to taxpayers
-Loss of public land
-Possibility of the Trop area turning into a retail ghost town

[Ken Smith]

Justin: No doubt cost overruns are a concern here as they are with any construction project (just ask the guy who put my new patio in) -- teams elsewhere have agreed to cover cost overruns, maybe the Rays will too. It shouldn't be a deal killer.

You're right about one thing: Giving up a piece of public land is certainly part of the public investment that would be required. But considering the land in question has had a stadium on it for close to 100 years and will soon be vacant, that part of the "investment" should be a pretty light lift.

You keep repeating your 10 pound whatever in a 5 pound sack slogan, but I don't think most of the people who have seen the artist's renderings believe the stadium is outsized for the site. On the contrary, it would create that post-card architectural feature that the waterfront is lacking now (sorry, but Whitted just isn't cutting it). And I for one think the whole parking and traffic issue is overblown too; every time I've brought out-of-town visitors downtown in the vicinity of Baywalk and Al Lang, they've remarked (or laughed at) how many parking garages there are. Stand on the corner of Central and 3rd sometime and count how many garages/lots you can see from that one spot. I've never seen anything like it in a downtown area.

The Rays can't go elsewhere -- they've got a lease with the City, and the City will never let the Rays move to Brandon or wherever else people may suggest on this blog. If the Rays feel compelled to breach their lease and incur the litigation and expenses that would cause, I'm sure they won't do it to move to Tampa or even Orlando (which Disney would never allow). There are cities like San Antonio and the Research Triangle in N.C. that have alot more to offer.

[Shoop]

ATTN: ALL NAYSAYERS!!!!!!

For PROOF of what a stadium can do for a surrounding area, you need not look any farther than what the St Pete Times Forum has done for the Channelside/Harbor Island/Port Tampa area.

Case it point.

End of discussion.

Thanks for playing.

[Justin Elza]

Besides Jim, you're being hypocritical. One of your pros is "Saving a piece of waterfront land from becoming an annex to the Bayfront Tower"

Really?

You pro stadium people sure have your talking points down.

Everyone I talk to thinks this scheme is just that, a scheme.

You may have bought into the hype but bottom line, it's fools gold for us, real gold for them.

[Jeff Gilbert]

This is almost funny Justin! "Possibility of the Trop area turning into a retail ghost town" IT IS A GHOST TOWN NOW- no wait I forgot about the home shows. What is the environmental impact of a huge asphalt parking lot instead of bands of green space? OH NO, we might pollute the marina! Lord knows it is absolutely pristine now. I think we should be more concerned about the eyesore that will be the new ball park. Instead of a unique structure, it would be far better to slap in a few more high rises. Sometimes I wake up a night in terror over my PARKING NIGHTMARE! You are a joke at your own expense.

[Jeff Gilbert]

"Everyone I talk to thinks this scheme is just that, a scheme."

Of course, I only talk to people that think like me, because everyone else is an evil idiot. I ignore the people on this chat board who don't think its a scheme because they are all just ringers working for the Rays.

[Ken Smith]

Kitty at 4:05 (I hate the lag on the postings): Obviously the Rays, like any pro sports franchise, is NOT like you or me or any other private business for that matter. They rely -- all of them across this great nation of ours, not just the Rays -- on some form of public subsidy, usually in the form of assistance in constructing a stadium. If you think that's just wrong no matter what, or if you just don't like having a baseball team here, that's pretty much the end of the argument, and you're entitled to have that opinion and vote accordingly. On the other hand, there are many of us -- even including Justin who disagrees with the Rays' proposal -- who believe having a pro sports franchise here in St. Pete is a major asset and we're therefore willing to see public investment in the continued viability of that asset. Again, the status quo is not an option. Either we figure out a way to get the Rays into a viable facility that is sustainable for the team financially over the long term, or in a few years, it we'll see the Rays move to another city (the Rays to their credit have refused to threaten as much, but it's the economic realities of the situation). When that happens, you'll not only be stuck with the "blighted" Trop area, as you referred to it, but a vacant Al Lang as well. Doubt that will help your property value.

[Justin Elza]

Jeff, are you arguing that I'm "for" the Trop parking lot? A little confused on that one.

[Justin Elza]

Al Lang need not be vacant. St Pete College and/or USF St Pete could play games there. Community teams could too. The current Al Lang parking lot could be turned into parkland to house the Saturday Market permanently. That is a St Pete way to look at it. Let me ask you something, if you are so dissatisfied with St Pete (claiming that without this new stadium we'd just be a bunch of losers) why do you live here?

[Justin Elza]

Jeff, I mean all the people I talk to in my day to day life outside of this discussion thread, which I really do have.

You're pretty energetic, perhaps you'd like to have a bike race with me?

[Paul]

I have a very logical answer to all of this. No. Now everyone back to life as usual. Rays, play ball, not City make over artists.

[Justin Elza]

Jeff, I just read the "You are a joke at your own expense." Perhaps you'd like to make it a boxing match instead?

[Ken Smith]

Jeff Gilbert at 4:45 pm: Ha!

OK, Justin, first point:

It's not a loss of public property since the stadium and all its assets will be PUBLICLY OWNED, as in the City will have free reign of it to do what they see fits. If they wanted to, the could have it built and choose to have the Rays not be a tenant (but we know that won't happen, but it's possible). Also, the City could use it outside baseball anyway they see fit; from concerts to boat shows to Bowl games (one report I read said the dimensions will be big enough to accommodate, on a temporary basis, a football gridiron). So, that argument is null and void.

Also, you honestly want another condo to go there? Lord knows that City Council'll never make Al Lang a park. Besides, it's been a stadium for 70+ years. Nobody's cared until about the last few months. Then all of a sudden, it's a "Save Albert Whitted" campaign all over again. No one cares until there's change proposed. Once that happens, it's like people come out of the woodwork to stop progress tooth and nail. I voted to save Albert Whitted, but not for the "wonders" of avation; the Grand Prix would have left if it lost its