Rays: 14,000 spaces available for most games

UPDATE (7:55 p.m.) -- Here, again, is the link to Tampa Bay Rays' parking and traffic analysis. And here is the link to the additional details on the stadium design. Both documents also are available at the Rays' web site, www.majorleaguedowntown.com. Click on the tab "Press."

UPDATE (4:10 p.m.) -- On the question of the Rays kicking people out of parking spaces, I asked that question to the traffic consultant, and they said their estimates only include unused or available spaces during the times when baseball games would be played. How'd they do that? They actually observed the lots and garages during February (a busier time of year, they say) to see what spaces are and are not being used. Enjoy the debate.

UPDATE (4:05 p.m.) -- The study includes an interesting graphic that, for the most part, is unrelated to either parking or traffic. It details where Rays' season ticket holders live. Forty-six percent of season ticket holders, almost half, live outside Pinellas County, and less than 30 percent live in St. Petersburg.

UPDATE (3:50 p.m.) -- The critical assumption of the parking analysis is that 19 private lots open their doors for baseball (The analysis does not include smaller lots or church lots that may want to get in the baseball parking business). The consultant suggests they'll have a financial incentive to do so. The lots are: St. Petersburg College Center; Wachovia Bank parking lot; Progress Energy building garage; Christ United Methodist Church lot; Muncipal Services Center garage; BB&T Building garage; SunTrust Building garage; St. Mary's Church lot; St. Petersburg Times lots; Synovus Bank lot; Municpal Lot 68; State Office Building lot, Mirror Lake; Pinellas County Courthouse garage; 501 Building garage; Courthouse Square lots; A.G. Edwards & Sons lots; Bayfront Medical West garage and Heart Center garage; All Children's Hospital South garages; USF-St. Petersburg lots. The Rays have or will have letters of interest from three of the largest parking providers, USF-St. Pete, Bayfront and All Children's.

UPDATE (3:25 p.m.) -- Aside from where people will park, much of the study discusses the traffic the extra cars will bring downtown. The highly technical analysis can be hard to understand, but the consultant in charge of the study, David Wallace, just said in an interview with the Times that St. Petersburg's grid and insterstate system makes the Rays' proposal possible.

UPDATE (2:40 p.m.) -- So, here'e what we're talking about. You can see the orange rings coming out from the proposed stadiun. Inside the first ring is a 5-10 minute walk, according to the consultant. Inside ring 2 is 10-15 minutes, and inside the third ring is up to a 25-minute walk. When all added up, the Rays say there will be 10,700 spaces within the third ring available for baseball fans on weekday nights. The number increases slightly for weekend games.

UPDATE: (2:30 p.m.) -- The study presents a science that is, at times, difficult to follow. The consultant, at one point, starts with a total of 17,000 off-street parking spaces within 3/4 a mile of Al Lang Field (5,000 within 1/4 mile, another 6,000 between 1/4 and 1/2 mile, and 6,000 between 1/2 and 3/4 miles). But the study eliminates 20 percent of the farthest away spaces because they would be less desirable. It also factors in a retail tenant occupying space, and therefore parking spaces, in the city's Southcore Garage. It makes assumptions that smaller parking lots will be less used, and bigger lots will be completely full. There's a great image that we're working to post that will detail what spaces the consultant's talking about.

UPDATE (2:15 p.m.) -- Because they're relying on the parking spaces of private businesses to make their numbers work, the Rays' consultants say only 6,800 spaces may be available when the Rays play a weekday afternoon game (Rays estimate 4-6 times a year). The Rays already run "camp" days for student groups on weekday, day games and could continue to do so in the new ballpark.

UPDATE (2 p.m.) -- Part of the parking plan calls for "pre-selling" up to 4,000 spaces to fans, based on zip codes. Fans coming from the south would park in southern spaces. Fans from the north would park in the north. The consultant suggests this strategy has worked in urban ballparks in Pittsburgh and San Diego. It's unclear if this would be for each individual game or only season ticket holders.

UPDATE (1:45 p.m.) -- We're just starting through these documents, but a couple of points stand out based on what we've seen so far. The Rays are assuming, using 2005 parking and tickets sales, a rate of 2.9 people per car. In that scenario, the team believes it only needs around 12,000 spots. The "available" spaces are within 3/4 a mile of the proposed new stadium and inlcude 2,000 spaces at Tropicana Field. The analysis assumes those spaces will only be used for near-sellout games and ticket holders would use a shuttle to reach the field.

ST. PETERSBURG -- The Tampa Bay Rays are releasing today  details of a parking and traffic management study that suggest there are nearly 14,000 parking spaces available for baseball games if a new stadium was built at Al Lang Field.

The number of spaces available does not include another 7,000 on-street parking spaces that would be available to downtown businesses and residents.

The study, performed by national consultant Rumme, Klepper & Kahl, found several companies willing to work with the Rays to find parking solutions -- including All Children's Hospital, Bayfront Medical Center and the University of South Florida St. Petersburg.

"Ensuring convenient access and adequate parking for the ballpark and other downtown attractions is critical to the success of downtown St. Petersburg and the Rays," Rays senior vice president Michael Kalt said in a release issued around noon Tuesday. "The Rays are committed to on-going coordination with the City of St. Petersburg, downtown residents, and institutions to minimize the traffic and parking impacts of the new ballpark and to attract new visitors to the downtown, its businesses, and its waterfront amenities."

We're starting to analyze the results of the study in more detail. You can see it for yourself here. But the release also says that of 32 "key intersections analyzed in the downtown area, only one minor physical intersection improvement would be needed to accommodate the flow of inbound and outbound traffic before and after baseball games."

The Rays also Tuesday submitted preliminary design details for the proposed 34,000 seat stadium to the city. Concepts highlighted include:

* Ballpark roof and façade design;
* The relationship of the proposed ballpark to the surrounding community;
* Potential public amenities;
* Streetscape improvement ideas;
* And sustainability goals.

You can review that document here. 

-- Aaron Sharockman, Times Staff Writer

Comments

[rayray]

The few complaints are mainly from narrow-minded/in-the-box thinking migrants stuck in time waiting for heaven to call. They don't represent the citizens of St. Pete, there just trying to shout the loudest & inject bogus claims. If you don't like the city's vision wtih Trop redevelopment/Bayfront Stadium proposal, then leave paradise and go somewhere else and let St. Pete continue to renaissance into the most alluring city in the southeastern US.

If we would have remained status-quo & there wasn't development, alot wouldn't be here now.

It's a win-win for St. Pete.....

Vote Yes all day everyday

Growth is inevitable here in Fla. so get use to it or leave

[Rational]

Lisa,

"Wait, I'm not selling hotdogs... I went to college and have a graduate degree... ooohh, I get it... the jobs will pay 7 bucks an hour. Ok, never mind then."

You can't be serious. So you're actually considering voting against this because you have a "graduate degree" and don't want to sell hotdogs??

Your position is that if they can't provide a job for EVERYONE, then it's not worth supporting.

Yeah, that's a winning perspective!!

"lets build this huge mess, why not, its only the City that will loose."

Hey graduate-degree person, it's "LOSE," not "loose." I think you have a screw loose.

[Rational]

Jasonhouse,

"We can't pay for schools, we can't pay for transit, hell, we can't even pay for firefighters and cops this year the budget is so screwed up"

Really? Because I'm pretty sure the schools, transit, firefighters, and cops are still operating--even though the Trop site generates NO TAX REVENUE to pay for those services.

Have you considered that the sale and redevelopment of the Trop site WILL GENERATE TAX REVENUE that will ultimately benefit those city services. (Yes, some of it temporarily will fund the stadium, but the Rays are the ones generating this tax revenue.)

"And taxpayers are supposed to rejoice at the prospect of handing over even more taxpayer owned assets to a profitable corporation?"

Are you even paying attention? Specifically, which "taxpayer owned assets" would the taxpayers hand over to the Rays?

NO ONE is suggesting that we're going to hand over Al Lang to the Rays. The City will LEASE the land to the Rays. Thus, the Rays will PAY RENT to the City.

A previous poster said it best when he said that you all sound like a bunch of 6-year-olds.

I'll say it again, There's no boogeyman under the bed!!!

[Jasonhouse]

Thank God that the polling on this makes it clear that this plan doesn't have a snowball's chance in hell of passing muster with voters.

Tough luck for the fanboys here desperate to have the rest of us continue to subsidize their lifestyle.

If you guys are so enamored with baseball, then start up a donation drive to help the destitute Rays build a new corporate palace. Just leave the rest of us out of it.

We can't pay for schools, we can't pay for transit, hell, we can't even pay for firefighters and cops this year the budget is so screwed up... And taxpayers are supposed to rejoice at the prospect of handing over even more taxpayer owned assets to a profitable corporation? I have a better idea, redevelop those assets and keep the money to offset our budget woes.

In the end, we all would love to get something for free. Nothing in life is nicer than sticking someone else for a bill that you yourself are responsible for (sports teams know this oh so well). But it isn't fair, it isn't justified, and it simply isn't happening again.

Sorry fanboys, but you're going to have to find some other city to subsidize your lifestyle.

[Lisa-magical-Elf]

How much will the insurance be to have this megaplex concrete monster with a 320 ft monument in Evacuation Zone A? Last I heard, the Trop, which is in a non-evacuation zone, costs 2.3 million a year to insure. I believe the citizens of St. Petersburg foot that bill. The Trop seems to be an excellent spot for any post-hurricane staging/relief that may be needed. What about that 320 ft structure, I mean the Signature people went thru all that trouble to build something with a minimal shadow footprint and then there's this 320 ft pole being stuck right on our waterfront? Won't that look like ... ohh, I don't know how to put it, but a four letter word comes to mind. Thor, what's with your fantasy mythological image you're projecting? You got your Viking eye on the new alien sailboat? That too seems appropriate, I mean with all the thunder and lightning and the freak show sailboat... what the heck, bring on Thor as the mascot.

[Lisa]

I want a job at the new stadium. I keep hearing jobs, jobs, jobs. What kind of job can I get? Can I be a systems analyst or perhaps a software developer? Maybe I can get a job as a mechanical or electrical engineer. Wait, I'm not selling hotdogs... I went to college and have a graduate degree... ooohh, I get it... the jobs will pay 7 bucks an hour. Ok, never mind then. I guess the economic 'boon' will be the owner's lining their pockets with our City owned property. Or perhaps the politicians who yuck it up in the VIP suites, congratulating each other on a job well done in giving yet another city the shaft with no lube in back room deals. Yeah... lets build this huge mess, why not, its only the City that will loose.

[Thor]

Hey skyscraper, Thor would like to ask you to do some thinking. Thor knows that there is no tax money coming from the trop site right now. Thor also knows that none will come unless it is bought by a developer. Things then will be built like fun places to shop, eat and live. Thor knows that then the tax money from these new places will go to the city and county for stuff like police and fire and schools, not to the baseball people. Thor knows there is no way to unlock that money unless the baseball team moves. Hey Al, Thor knows the roof covers the whole new ball park. Thor knows there may be one rain out every few years, Thor is sorry for such a bad thing as a rain out ever 300 games or so, excuse Thor for this. Thor is surprised Sky scarper and Al even have a computer, perhaps you used one at the libary which will also get money from the new trop area for more computers and possibly classes for you. Geo, Thor respects and congratulates you for your knowledge. Thor has spoken, Thor is brave, Thor is wise, Thor is happy she can educate you.

[geo]

Al: Oh no! It rains in Florida??? How will they ever play sports here? I guess nobody has ever played baseball outdoors in Florida. Or football. Oh, it's such a shame -- an entire state of children who can't play little league ball because of the constant rain! What misery.

So a game gets rained out a few times a year. Big deal. It happens all the time in every MLB city in the U.S. Cleveland got SNOWED out several games in a row last April. Wonder if the citizenry there is debating closing down the team due to inclement weather.

The Rays staying at the Trop is not an option, so stop floating it. Here are the choices that the voters are really facing, though the Mayor won't say it, and the Rays are too classy to threaten: (1) The Rays build a new stadium at the site of Al Lang largely paid for by the proceeds of redeveloping the Trop land; (2) the proposal is voted down and the Rays play a few more years at the Trop and then move to another city; or (3) the Rays play a few more years at the Trop, and then when the Rays start planning to leave, the city/county/state panic and end up paying for a new stadium anyway, except it WILL cost hundreds of millions in taxpayer dollars because by then Al Lang will have presumably been put to some other use, and the whole develop-the-Trop-to-pay-for-the-stadium scenario will have gone by the wayside.

[geo]

Jh Skyscrapercity: Yeah, it's a real shame they're asking the voters to lease public land so that it can't be "redeveloped to its maximum use, or become part of the waterfront park system." Uh, hasn't that been exactly what the city and its voters have done with that piece of land for the last 90+ years. Good 'ol Al Lang himself leased it from the city in 1914, and it's been a ballpark ever since. Was Al an evil "Wall Street" boy too?

Because none of this seems to be getting through the thick skulls of the flat-earth naysayers on this blog, I'll simply repeat this earlier post from Ken Smith, who responding to another flat-earther (i.e.'Let the Rays stay at the Trop") at 4:48 pm yesterday:
"Obviously the Rays, like any pro sports franchise, is NOT like you or me a normal private business. They rely -- like all of the pro sports teams across this country -- on some form of public subsidy, usually in the form of assistance in constructing a stadium. If you think that's just wrong no matter what, or if you just don't like having a baseball team here, that's pretty much the end of the argument, and you're entitled to have that opinion and vote accordingly. On the other hand, there are many of us -- even including Justin who disagrees with the Rays' proposal -- who believe having a pro sports franchise here in St. Pete is a major asset and we're therefore willing to see public investment in the continued viability of that asset. Again, the status quo is not an option. Either we figure out a way to get the Rays into a viable facility that is sustainable for the team financially over the long term, or in a few years, we'll see the Rays move to another city (the Rays to their credit have refused to threaten as much, but it's the economic reality of the situation). When that happens, you'll not only be stuck with the "blighted" Trop area, as you referred to it, but a vacant Al Lang as well. Doubt that will help your property value."

[geo]

Nobody is asking any taxpayer to pay for the proposed stadium. Period. It will not cost a single individual property owner a single red cent. So stop the moronic complaints and declarations about this deal being foisted on the taxpayers. You sound like a bunch of 6 year olds who refuse to listen to their parents telling them there's no monster under the bed.

The new stadium will be paid for by a development that will not exist unless the new stadium is built. In other words, the Rays have proposed a way to have the new stadium pay for itself. All they're asking the voters to give up is a piece of land downtown where there is already a stadium (and an old, run-down soon-to-be-vacant stadium at that). Stadiums have been built all over this nation with public subsidies and not a single one of them required as little sacrifice by the taxpayers and voters as the one proposed by the Rays.

[Al]

Yes, "Rational," it will have a "roof" that will cover maybe 90 percent of the seats. The Rays people admit the roof will allow rain outs or rain delays "in the most extreme of circumstances." These New Yorkers don't understand Florida weather. How many "100-year storms" have we seen? Too many. I have a better idea for Al Lang Stadium: baseball. High school baseball, college baseball, Little League baseball. Leave the Rays where they are. If the Rays ever have a winning season, the Trop will look like the Taj Mahal.

[geo]

get-smart: you're an idiot. how secret is the new stadium when YOU'RE BLOGGING ON A NEWSPAPER WEBSITE WITH 3 DOZEN STORIES ABOUT IT!!!

[Jh Skyscrapercity]

Dude, take a look at what nearby land went for per acre... Then look at the roughly 90 acres of land the city is giving away and you do the math. Then take into account the fact the huge parcels like this in urban cores aren't exactly a dime a dozen... That amount is what taxpayers are giving away in real dollars.

Oh, last I checked, leased land can't be redeveloped to its maximum use, or become part of the waterfront park system, should it be decided.

Furthermore, I think it speaks to the character of people who advocate for dumping the expense of this scheme onto our children. As you yourself admit in your last post, it isn't today's taxpayer's who foot the bill, it's tomorrow's taxpayers. Mmm, good thinking.

[get-smart]

By keeping the new stadium a secret, the mayor and city deprived us of an important issue that needed to be aired for our election of our new city council members. I guess the mayor and friends didn't want to take a chance that any of the city council candidates declare themselves opposed to the stadium and God Forbid win. Maybe the State Attorney need to investigate these people.

[Rational]

"Do I get a cut on my taxes so I don't have to pony up for this new fancy stadium?"

Hey, Jimbob,

Point to one piece of evidence showing that you'll have to "pony up" for the new stadium.

The fact is that the "tax money" that will pay for the stadium doesn't currently exist and will exist ONLY by the sale and redevelopment of the Trop site.

If the Rays are effectively generating permanent tax revenue, why shouldn't they get a portion of that temporarily?

[Rational]

"No, the game will be called on account of rain, and you will be saying, oh boy, do I miss the Trop"

Al,

What are you talking about? Have you seen the new stadium?

It WILL have a roof.

There won't be any rainouts.

[Rational]

"You omitted the land the new stadium will be on. Umm, it's worth quite a sum I suspect, and the Rays want it for free. (at least $15mil even in this market, and probably more like double that)"

Jh Skyscrapercity,

Are you kidding me?? Have you even looked at the proposal??

No one is going to BUY the Al Lang site. The Rays are going to LEASE the site, so the Rays will pay RENT to the City.

The City cannot enter into a long-term lease of the Al Lang site without voter approval. That's why we'll have a referendum in November.

Again, everyone knows, or should know by now, that the Rays' proposal WILL NOT INCREASE TAXES.

Current Trop site: generates NO TAX REVENUE.

Sale and redevelopment of Trop site: will generate NEW tax revenue, and SOME of that will pay for the stadium.

[Rational]

"If we lose the green space on the water it's gone."

What green space!!!

Do you people know what is there now?

A vacant baseball stadium and a parking lot!! Oh, and a road.

That's the greenspace that you want to save??

If you've even looked at the Rays' proposal, you'd know that they want to ADD GREENSPACE.

Current Al Lang site: vacant baseball stadium and parking lot.

Future Al Lang site: vibrant world-class baseball stadium and a public park!!

It's an easy choice.

[Jh Skyscrapercity]

Hey Bill, we know that you will personally benefit from this, since you live in DT and are a baseball fan... But why should everyone else in the city and county have to subsidize your lifestyle? You want a stadium a few blocks away to go see baseball games in, good for you man, that's awesome. You pay for it.

I stand by what I've said all evening. Let the Rays issue stock in the team to raise capital, and if St Pete residents vote to redevelop the land, the Rays can have a crack at buying the land with the money they'll have through the same competitive bidding process that everyone else has to follow... Or, the Rays can sell a stake in the team in exchange for the taxpayers' assumption of debt and gifting of assets in the stadium deal.

[Bill's Dad]

Bill, short and sweet. If it was so good were you came from, why move here? I can appreciate your desires for better things... but honestly, if it was so good back home... why change us simple folk who like things the way they're going?

[Al]

You read it here first: It ain't gonna happen. The pot of gold called "redevelop the Trop" is full of those chocolates with gold wrappers, not real money. The 14,000 parking spaces are blocks away from Al Lang. The trolley will not come by to pick you up. Are you gonna walk eight blocks through the rain to sit in a rainy ballpark? No, the game will be called on account of rain, and you will be saying, oh boy, do I miss the Trop. If the Rays want to go to Tampa or Orlando or Omaha, I hope they don't get hit in the rump by the swinging door on the way out.

[Bill]

The ignorant folks that think that pro-stadium posts are part of the Rays propaganda machine just make me laugh. Get your heads out of the sand and wake up already. I am in no way associated with the Rays. Though, I'm smart enough to realize this is a brilliant plan. This will really put St. Pete on the map. As a downtown resident of St. Pete I will buy two season tickets and my wife and I will walk or ride bikes to games and other residents will do the same so parking won't be the issue some people are making it out to be. Also, there's NO shopping in St. Pete. Tyrone is run down and you have to go to Tampa to find a decent mall. The redevelopment of the Trop land will put retail businesses here and make this convenient for all St. Pete residents. The ownership knows what they're doing and we should feel honored that we have a major league team in a city this size. I lived in Baltimore when Camden Yards (a downtown stadium) was built and that stadium has generated tremendous revenue for the city. Let's progress here. I will not just vote YES but HELL YES!

[Satan]

Yes, it is I, Satan.

I own many properties in St Pete. Yes, don't despair. I am not out to get your soul. I'm pretty easy going.

These Rays guys, they are evil. Do they sail boats out of Demon's Landing? Likely , no. Do they compete in St Anthony's Triathlon, likely no. Do they, live, work , play and love the parks, museums and laid back life we all enjoy on our g'dang waterfront? likely, no.

Why not? They are profit motivated, psychopaths, for the most part. Well, although I am pure evil, without a doubt, it is because I have not even stooped this low as to steal the property of the City of St Pete, that I support putting a huge protective 'NYC Wall Street Boy' bubble over your entire city. I can't condone this kind of evil. You interns are pure punks. Please come see me when you die, I have a place for you in hell.

Pray now. Save your land. Don't be a Rays Douchebag.

Evilingly yours,

Satan.

[Tom]

Why is there so much talk about the parking issue???? There aren't 14,000 people who will even go to a Rays game!

[Jenny]

I am finally logged into the sistem. Is this wear I'm supposed to type in the things you gave me? 121121 paid intern.

[Cathy]

Ok Paul, you are right. I am a Rays 'bot marketing intern. I am paid to stay up late and post this type of message. I apologize. My boss is just a NYC well street boy. oops, did I say that right. I don't know. Anyhow, I have no idea where St pete is so I just say what my bosses pay me to type in here.

[Paul]

Cathy, are you serious?? You are up at 11:23 on a Tuesday evening promoting the Rays downtown parking study? Come the F on. you are SOOOO Rays propaganda. Get a flippin clue. The only reason I'm up fighting you intern punks is because I lOVE MY DAMM CITY. now, get the hell out of my town.

[Bozo the Clown]

Neville,

Sternburg just called. He needs you in his office NOW! Douchebag.

Comments will be deleted in the a.m. i'm sure. but in the meantime, you Rays interns can go s c r e w your mothers.

no way in hell this deal is going to happen. get bent NYC boys.

[Cathy]

Larry Folsom, did you actually count the thousands of parking spaces downtown to check for availability? My guess is no, whereas these consultants did. Just because you can't find a parking space on the street on Beach Dr or Central doesn't mean there isn't any parking downtown. Until you get your cynical butt out there and count these spaces, please speak only about what you know. It seems USF and the hospitals want to provide parking....and they have TONS. Bringing the hundreds of thousands, and hopefully millions eventually, of people downtown each year for baseball will showcase our downtown to them and make them want to come back on a non-game night. This doesn't happen at the Trop, where people just drive away and don't even realize the gem St Pete has become. A downtown stadium = more year round activity and a growing downtown core of restaurants and shops. Downtown is charming, but is get pretty vacant and empty a block or two off the beaten path.

[Tina]

To all those who want to build a new ballpark on the Trop site - it will cost taxpayers tens of millions of dollars since you have to build 12,000 extra parking spaces and can't get as much revenue from the sale of the Trop land cause half is taken up by costly parking structures and the stadium. This option would not require a referrendum, so the fact that the Rays are not pursuing this indicates it doesn't have as much merit from a business standpoint. A stadium on the Trop site also won't benefit downtown businesses as much as one on the Al Lang site.

[Neville]

George,

You asked why the City's Parking Manager wasn't on the parking task force. Joe Kubicki, who was on the task force along other city staff, appears (on the web) to be the head of the city's transportation and parking department.

Will be interesting to hear the City's comments on this study, but I have to say it is incredibly thorough. Not exactly beach reading, but WOW, there is certainly a lot of info in there. Its obvious that most posters haven't read the study, which actually addresses nearly every person's concern mentioned on this blog. Lets stop the conjecture and start dealing in facts.

[Bozo the Clown]

It just doesn't stop, does it? I mean are are there really that many people in St Pete up this late responding with positive comments at this time of night. This is hilarious. Thanks Rays. You are showing your true colors. Please keep this up. Keep the 'facts' coming boys, cause we love your stuff... makes for great 'beach reading'. Too bad you're not on the beach, rather there on Intern Row. Must be horrible to have a NYC boy poking you in the butt at this time of night. I'm off to roll the sails and plan for my next Gulf adventure whilst drinking me rum. See you online, this ain't even close to a start.

[larry folsom]

14000 spaces may be available somewhere in the eastern hemisphere but they are not near the Ray's stadium. I have been a snow bird with a home in Florida and an avid Ray's fan for 25 years. The parking is and has been the pits since I attended the first Ray's game in their history. I have made my concerns known for years to the Ray's front office, to the ST. Pete. Police Dept and have been completely ignored, except for the occasional ticket for parking in a no parking zone. BY the way the tix that I received were because I needed a handicap spot and there none available because they were being held by the POLICE DEPT for SOMEONE OTHER THAN THE HANDICAPPED. If anyone believes a new stadium and a new parking PROMISE is a good reason to support this new stadium had better take a look at the attendance numbers for the entire history of the Ray's.

[Neville]

George,

You asked why the City's Parking Manager wasn't on the parking task force. Joe Kubicki, who was on the task force along other city staff, appears (on the web) to be the head of the city's transportation and parking department.

Will be interesting to hear the City's comments on this study, but I have to say it is incredibly thorough. Not exactly beach reading, but WOW, there is certainly a lot of info in there. Its obvious that most posters haven't read the study, which actually addresses nearly every person's concern mentioned on this blog. Lets stop the conjecture and start dealing in facts.

[Jimmbob]

What if I live in St Pete, own a couple of apartments and I don't really care about baseball. Do I get a cut on my taxes so I don't have to pony up for this new fancy stadium? I mean, I could care less, my tenants could care less, and it seems I'm going to have to pay for it. I say, let them folks who want it pay for it, make it a special club just for you people who think its a good idea. We'll put in special cushions with your name on them so you can buy 6 dollar hotdogs and 8 dollar beers. You go for it, you seem like a nice bunch. Hey, I got a few places right by your new stadium too, I'll give you a parking spot for 25 dollars, cash. thank you very much.

[M.D.]

All due respect to Jh Skyscrapercity, but have other expansion teams had to do this in the AL East? The Rays have to surpass the Yankees or the Red Sox just to hope for a Wild Card spot.

Now I absolutely feel that the previous team owners made MANY poor decisions. I am not defending them. I am simply saying the team has had an uphill battle but I really have seen positive changes during S.T. this year.

[Jh Skyscrapercity]

MD,

All of the other expansion franchises have been to the World Series, 2 out of 3 have won it, and one of them has won it multiple times.

The Rays have never finished out of last place, and they've had just as much time to 'build a winner' as anybody else.

[Mayor Baker]

Ok, I'll chime In. The responses from the 'lets do it' crowd is so obviously the Rays propaganda machine, I have to ask you Wall Street boys to please stop. You have too much money and can hire anyone you want to promote your agenda against our small city. You already have the fake Governor and, well, me, the silent Mayor on your side. Give the residents a chance and ease up on your PR madness.

Thank you, and please come listen to me play guitar on Central Ave. tommorrow.

Sincerely,

Rick Baker, Mayor of Rays Town... uhhm, I mean St Pete.

[MD]

As far as the Rays past performance record... how do you think any expansion team would fare being thrown in to the toughest division in baseball? Of course it is taking them time to get a foothold. The Yankees and the Red Sox have a bit of a head start.

With that said, go down to the field and catch a spring training game. The new owners/coach/players really are making a difference this year! Obviously, I'm not saying that the Rays are World Series contenders but they look to NOT be an embarrassment this season.

[M.D.]

A few comments...

1.) I disagree with the comment about the proposed new stadium ruining the St. Pete skyline. I think the opposite would be true. It looks original and fits with a waterfront / nautical feel. And please no more with the farmers market argument. How is that doing anything for the skyline? I understand that is important to its certain niche group of regulars but I think there is a bit more flexibility for its location.

2.) Love the comment about negative thinking and aiming low. Thankfully history is full of entrepreneurs who aimed high. Or to quote Gretzky "You miss 100 percent of the shots you never take."

3.) A downtown stadium could bring many dollars to the bars & restaurants there. Ask Ferg’s how their business would be without the Rays. Thousands of people (especially on weekends) will not be ready to go home at 10:00pm. Twenty/thirty-somethings on average spend plenty of their disposable income on food/beverages somewhere. Why not downtown St. Pete?

4.) My previous comments were "Pro-stadium Change", however I do agree with one of the cons mentioned -- heat/humidity. I love Florida (despite it being election folly time). However, enjoying a warmer climate does not mean it would be pleasant to sit outside in the summer humidity. Even at night one will quickly be sweat-soaked due to the humidity. Maybe because it’s March we forget how uncomfortable the summer can get...

[Jh Skyscrapercity]

Rational,

You omitted the land the new stadium will be on. Umm, it's worth quite a sum I suspect, and the Rays want it for free. (at least $15mil even in this market, and probably more like double that)

Also... The Trop doesn't generate revenue, which is why the city should develop some of that sea of parking, which largely goes unused, and can easily be augmented with garages in the new urban developkment that would ring the Trop, enlivening the whole place, just like was billed as going to happen on the waterfront. (how though, when the site is largely ringed with parcels with longterm development on them? The land around the Trop can be redeveloped to the benefit of both parties, right now. If the Rays want to make more money from their team, how about trying their hand at fielding a quality product which fills the seats? How about putting the money they would have put into a waterfront stadium into complimentary development surrounding the stadium?

In the end, I think this plan could have had a lot of promise... If only the Rays weren't asking taxpayers to handover hundreds of millions of dollars in cash and assets, just because the Rays were nice enough to ask. This is exactly the kind of scheme that prevents good government on low taxes, by giving away huge sums of public assets for next to nothing in return. The money that would be given away has to come from somewhere people. Would you rather it come from redevelopment proceeds controlled by taxpayers, benefiting taxpayers, or would you rather give it away to a corporation, and then wonder a decade from now why you're taxes are going up? Think!

[M]

14,000 PARKING SPACES!!!! That will be perfect. Based on the Rays winning ways and the attendance record, that should give each car roughly 3 spaces each.

[J.P.]

Summertime is usually not all that busy downtown, so I'm not too skeptical, but I'm not sure this plan is convincing... The real problem is the stadium's proximity to an already high popularity area- this parking scenario would choke the life out of restaurants during game time... many of these establishments are higher end (Gratzzi, Parkshore, Redwoods, etc), and they might not benefit from increased Rays traffic. That said, certainly, the bars WOULD benefit after games... Worst case scenario is that people start avoiding downtown during Rays games...I think they need to figure in a new Rays-centric parking garage to sell this to me...

[flafan]

If the Rays need a new stadium, let them build it in the parking lot at Tropicana Field, then tear down the old stadium. That's what's happening right now at the Mets stadium. There's no need to have a huge new stadium on our beautiful waterfront.

[Frank]

If the Rays are smart, they will have Tampa then Orlando on speed dial if this thing doesn't go through. They are about to be a very good baseball team and they have the kind of ownership that will really help out a city that works with them.

[cs]

I live in Tampa but love downtown St. Pete's vibe. Great small businesses and cool places. If that park is built on the waterfront, say good-bye forever. "We" the public will never have it back. The Trop is not a bad venue to see a game. It lacks the history and inconvenience of Fenway or Wrigley but heck, A/C in July is a good thing. Downtown St. Pete does not have a mass transit system that can accommodate off site parking well. If we lose the green space on the water it's gone. For most of the year it will be vacant and of no value to us. Personally, I don't see a compelling reason to take away green space with a water view for a sports team. And I do love baseball!!

[toad]

nobody cares what you all think.... find a hobby or read a book... there will be a new stadium... fact.... cry all you want

[George]

Uhm... Why is the City's Parking Manager not on the list of City Staff that had input into the "study"? Was he a dissenting voice? Inquiring minds want to know.

[Barbara]

Forget the spaces. What about the traffic on the roads? What a nightmare! Have you ever tried to leave downtown St. Pete after July 4th fireworks? It'll take you an hour to go 2 blocks.

This is a disaster and horrible for the people who live and work downtown.

[Rational]

Jh Skyscrapercity,

"These sports teams always want us (taxpayers) to buy them a facility"

"Also remember that the Rays are expecting to take the property tax income generated from the redeveloped Tropicana Field site for 30 years as well"

Your argument isn't grounded in reality.

The Rays are NOT asking us to "buy them a new facility" AND THEN "expecting to take the property tax income generated from the redeveloped Tropicana Field site."

Your argument assumes two levels of tax burdens.

Fact: The Rays' proposal suggests only that the money generated from the sale of the Trop site will pay for the stadium.

The Rays aren't asking us to fork over anything more than that.

Another fact: The Trop site currently generates NO tax revenue.

If the Rays are going to arrange for a new source of long-term tax revenue, then I support giving them a short-term portion of that revenue for a new stadium.