What can dome do for you?

ST. PETERSBURG -- While Carlos Pena and the boys are battling it out in Winter Haven this afternoon,  Michael Kalt (at left) and his team will be in City Hall, listening to the City Council talk over the potential options for redeveloping Tropicana Field.

Representatives from all three bidders -- Archstone-Madison, Hines and Williams Quarter -- are expected to be on hand. It's another "no formal action" day, meaning we're unlikely to have any major developments. But we should get a sense of what the City Council's thinking.

The big questions:

* Is there going to be any clarity from Achstone-Madison or Williams Quarter on what they're willing to pay to purchase the 86-acre site? (Only Hines gave an actual figure, $50-million, as part of their bid).

* And, is there enough money available for the Rays to possibly finance a new $450-million stadium, and keep their promise not to ask to raise new taxes or divert existing tax revenues?

The council worksession starts at 2 p.m. Check back then for updates.

UPDATE (2:20 p.m.) -- The work session opened with a brief presentation from city officials on each of the three proposals. Now, Archstone-Madison is taking their turn at the mic. Several members of St. Pete Preserve Our Wallets and Waterfront are here, as are a group off Rays executives including Michael Kalt. None of them are expected to speak today. Following the Archstone-Madison presentation, we're scheduled to hear from Hines and then Williams Quarter. City officials are predicting Williams Quarter may increase their development proposal when it gets its chance to speak.

UPDATE ( 2:35 p.m.) -- Archstone-Madison's presentation has come and gone and we still don't understand how much they're offering to purchase Tropicana Field. Archstone vice president Daryl South said there is not sufficient initial land value at the 86-acre Tropicana Field site to support a simple, up front cash payment. So instead, developers are proposing a public-private partnership where the city would received at least $1-million a year in rent, and possibly $2-million a year, as well as some share of the developer's profits for redeveloping the site. Hines, the developer the Rays have been working with, is on the clock.

UPDATE (2:37 p.m.) -- Hines exec. Michael Harrison: "You don't find these opportunities very often in the U.S. anymore."

UPDATE (2:50 p.m.) -- Williams Quarter executives aren't pulling any punches during their presentation. They say the demand for retail Hines and Archstone-Madison (Williams Quarter called them "out of town friends") are talking about, is not verifiable. What is, however, is the need for workforce housing, they say. The Williams Quarter proposes 4,000 for-rent units.

UPDATE (2:57 p.m.) -- Bidding war? Williams Quarter just dropped the biggest bombshell of the afternoon. They're willing to pay $61-million for the Trop. What say you Hines? Time for council questions.

Comments

[Ken]

This project lacks density. With all of that land, they need taller towers. Also, they should think about transit. That would be a great location for a light-rail station. They keep talking about parking, but if this area had a decent mass transit system, people could actually catch a train to the game.

[Ken]

This project lacks density. With all of that land, they need taller towers. Also, they should think about transit. That would be a great location for a light-rail station. They keep talking about parking, but if this area had a decent mass transit system, people could actually catch a train to the game.

[Tino]

A light rail is a great idea. Just add a couple billion to the $450 million price tag.

[Nancy Toth]

I have a great idea - why don't we sell the Devil Rays, bring back the FSL and leave spring training at Al Lang tear down the dome and build another Webb's City there!! If you want an outdoor concert or play go to Williams Park or Straub.

[JIM]

Somehow, it's not looking like that $150M "projection" is going to be met in this, or future, dog and pony shows. Guess we'll just have to go back to watching MLB in air conditioned comfort.

[Big Joe Buddah]

I've got an idea. Hey Nancy, why don't you go back to the kitchen ... there have to be some dirty dishes calling your name.

back on topic: putting in rentals down there is a PERFECT way to make the property around that area WORTHLESS ... gotta think bigger than that
rentals bring in the riff-raff

[Kevin]

Rays say goodbye part II is more accurate, since their spring training camp just split!!! The Rays are responsible for this famous spring training town to no longer have....SPRING TRAINING for the first time in 90+ years!!!! Buh Bye

[Andy]

Big Joe,

Figure out how to type a complete sentence. When you have done so, I will be more than willing to listen to your thoughts on why women are inferior to men.

[Tuck]

Did you all check out the three proposals when the PDF files were available online? They were suh-weet!!! I don't know how anyone could look at them and be against the new stadium.

Well, except for the geriatric geezers living in condos downtown, who were hoping to die in peace - they hate the idea, (and any other type of fun that doesn't involve golf or bingo).

I actually like Ken's idea. A trolley system, similar to the one that connects Channelside to Ybor, could make all of downtown more accessible, and could also answer many transit questions.

[prouder native citizen]

The new stadium will have an awesome one of a kind look.

Whatever the Trop redevelopments are, they will positively impact the city and look better than the current blightedness.

It's about win-win economic development!

[Erick]

The SOLUTION that will be good for Rays and good for the downtown community...

1. Leave the Rays where they are at The Trop

2. Renovate Al Lang field into a multi-purpose sport venue a 20,000 seat soccer stadium that can also be used as a arts show venue, car show venue etc...

[Stephen]

Soccer??? HAHAHAHAHA...that's the funniest thing I've heard all week! You were joking right?

[steph]

i work downtown, all i see are bums, bums, bums in all the parks. this will be the same, just more benches and grass for them to sleep on. plus, the neighborhoods in that area are trashy, who would want to live there? truthfully, parking and traffic are my main concern. i think the trop looks good, why dont they spend a little less and give it a facelift? until they have a winning season, they will not get more fans, no matter where they are located. (and i dont want to sit in 100 degree plus heat with bugs for three hours) save the Trop!

[St. Pete Resident]

Steph - Thanks for representing the snobs without grammar check. I guess not everyone can live in an lily-white ivory tower with princesses such as yourself. Gated communities are wonderful aren't they? I'll take an city community with character over a planned urban development with a choice of three different "models" of home any day of the week.

But I digress . . .

I love St. Pete (and I actually live here) and I think the redevelopment options combined with an exciting downtown stadium are just what the city needs. It worked in Denver, it worked in Arizona, it worked in San Diego - and it'll work here.

[Tony]

Steph, I cannot remember the temperature in St. Petersburg EVER being 100 degrees. I am so tired of people exaggerating this point. The games will all start at 7pm, and the stadium will be in the shade thanks to the covering. If that's not good enough for you then you belong at a movie theatre, not a baseball stadium.

[Tony]

Steph, I cannot remember the temperature in St. Petersburg EVER being 100 degrees. I am so tired of people exaggerating this point. The games will all start at 7pm, and the stadium will be in the shade thanks to the covering. If that's not good enough for you then you belong at a movie theatre, not a baseball stadium.

[Justa Thinkin]

Why not keep the Trop and develop the Busch Complex(Ray Nam) in the Tyrone area? THis has got to be prime property.

[Justin Elza]

For those of you who support the new stadium proposal I want to offer some food for thought.

What the public will be voting on in November is to give the city the ability to extend the Rays contract past the 6 year limit they can do without voter approval.

But we will not be voting for a new stadium.

If the Rays are given a 30 year contract to use the land where Al Lang Field is now, they can do whatever the current DC3 zoning permits, whether that be build a stadium or build a new condo tower.

But they wouldn't do that, you say. Then where would they play?

How about another city altogether? It would cost the Rays about 100 million dollars to break their lease, which could easily be offset by another city’s offer. They said they would never try to break their lease, which may actually be true. They could continue making payments on the lease whether they were there or not, something they could easily afford to do if another city gave them a sweet enough deal to relocate.

Don't think they could afford to do it even if they got a sweet deal from another city? Well how much money do you think they could make off the current Al Lang (prime waterfront) site over a 20-30 year period? Definitely enough to afford to split town for greener pastures.

You may think this is total BS, that I'm just trying to scare people.

Well fine, then you won't object to the referendum being worded in such a way that the Rays can only be given a lease on Al Lang if their primary intent is to build a baseball stadium, right?

I don't agree with the stadium plan, but even if you do, let’s all make sure that a stadium is the ONLY thing the Rays can have Al Lang for. Stranger things have happened and we need to cover our butts. Demand the referendum be worded so what I just described couldn't possibly become reality!

[SB]

St. Pete Resident...Before you go slamming someone for not using grammer or spell check, check your post. You must be one of those "snobs" you were referring to.

And to those of you who think housing or shopping will be profitable at the trop site..open your eyes and take a look around and it does not matter that a police station is close by. Before anyone jumps on me, I have lived in South St. Pete for 30+ years.

I just don't think the fan base is here for baseball. Most "Floridians" have roots that run deep for other teams. I love baseball, my kids played and my husband coached for many years.

Justin..Very good point!!

[Bodog]

@SB - just like there was no fan base for professional football,ie: Tampa Bay Buccaneer.....So much for your 30 plus years in south St. Pete. The Tampa Bay area will support professional sports. It's our elected offical who let us down. We could have had the lighting, Storm, however; city offical elected to allow them to go to Tampa. SB...you must be one of those folks who prefer to go downtown and sit on the green benches. St. Pete has gotten beyond those years of being known as the grave yard of the south....Get on board or get the hell out of town.

[Sal]

The St Pete officials had no authority over the Lightning , the only reason they played in the Trop was because the Expo Hall was too small and the Forum was already in the planning stages.

[Steve]

The new downtown stadium and shopping area on the Trop site is just what St Pete needs! This city has so much potential, but is still in the dark ages in many ways. Cities with downtown stadiums thrive and is a win-win situation. There are no malls at all in St. Pete and money is spent at the malls in Tampa instead. Plus this will really put St Pete on the map and will increase property values. We will get an All Star game and national recognition. Let's build this stadium!

[Justin Elza]

So Bodog and Steve, you want a new waterfront stadium?

Then you agree with my last post, that we need to make sure the November referendum is worded in such a way that a waterfront stadium is the only (or at least the primary) thing we agree to give the Rays the Al Lang site for, right?

[Donald Lance]

How are they going to air condition the new stadium? Do you think you're going to sell that stadium out when it's 90 degrees and raining? The Marlins want a dome to alleviate this problem and Stu wants the Marlins problem. Tell ya what Stu - build your stadium but don't A/C your private box. Then I'll keep an eye on your attendance at the games. Let's see how soon you tire of the elements. Good luck with your revenue when you'll get gates like the Marlins do!

[City Traveler]

For someone who has been in the military and traveled over the world to many different large cities, I can personally say that the waterfront stadium is something that St. Petersburg needs. I have lived here for 25 years (minus years spent in military)and truely think that the waterfront is something we need here. I do not agree with the shopping venue because people are not going to come to downtown St. Petersburg to shop. Look what happened to Baywalk. Even the peir, if memory serves me correct, tried the shopping thing and failed. Living situations where the Trop is currently located is ludicrous. That would give certain residents in the high crime area off of 16th street a reason to go looting in a new location.
All in all, build the stadium and leave the living and shopping alone. The site of the Trop can be used for other things, such as college expansion of USF campus, or even SPC. The tansit idea of a train station is good, however on 1st ave and 37th st I believe is the bus station right across from the YMCA...Why not make the trolly station there. Hey, it already looks like one.

[Donald Lance]

I apologize Stu! If you make it mandatory that women wear white shirts to the games, I'll be at every game!

[Bodog]

Justin.....You bet your skippy I'm for the new stadium and, I don't believe the Rays would use the site for anything other than a stadium. I have to agree with Steve, St. Pete is no longer this sleepy lil one horse burg. St. Pete., regardly of how people feel about the won / loss record of the Rays, is a MLB CITY and the people need to start acting like such. I'm a life long resident and I've watched this city and the downton area develope into something very special. The new stadium the Rays are proposing can't do anything but enchance our already beautiful waterfront, we have the refurbished Mahaffey Theater, Albert Whitted. THE STADIUM WOULD BE A PLUS.
Make no mistake, it is a luxury to watch a ball game in an air conditioned facility, but baseball was meant to be played outside. I know I'm gonna hear all the arguments about the heat, rain and lighting storms we have in the area as well as people having to walk miles to get to the new stadium.
The stadium will have a cover,just not your traditional cover. I have to believe that Stu and his people have taken this into account, hence the new configurations of the stadium. As far as the Marlins old stadium - it has no cover at all. The new Stadium will have a retracable roof. I guess the ideal behind the "Sail roof" is to showcase the waterfront. The out of town fans, who don't know anything about our downtown or waterfront, will get a bird's eye view. The stadium can be a win - win situation. We, as people, are slow to embrace progress. It's high time, we , the people of the City of St. Petersburg and the County of Pinellas start to embrace the ideal that each day is a promise of new joys and gains if we look for the rainbow instead of the rain.

[Justin Elza]

Bodog,

So you agree that, at a minimum, the referendum must be something like “Do you allow the city and the Rays to enter into a long-term (30-year) lease on the Al Lang Site for the primary purpose of constructing and operating a new major league baseball stadium”?

[Bodog]

City Traveler - I agreed with you in your assesement concerning the stadium on the waterfront, the trolley being a starting point for transit to the ball games, the shopping venue WILL be a bust, however; after being a Police officer in this city for 25 plus years, I just recently retired, I disagree with you on the area around the dome being a high crime area, sixteen St. area. I don't know what your parameters are as far as what you mean by Sixteen St. Area, but I patrolled that area for a good portion of my career. I will admit that south of Trop Field is not a very good area, however; it did not affect what happened at the dome. It is folk like yourself who spread these vicious rumors that Trop Field is in a bad location. You would not beieve it if I told you that according to crime tracts that are monitored by the Police Dept. Crime is up in the downtown area more so than alone Sixteen St. and streets that border Trop Field.
I agree with you that the Trop location could be used for something else other than retail and living. The College thing is out as well. If I had a say in the money matters, I would demolish Mahaffey Theater, mind you , keep the parking area, and use the additional land to reconfigure the dimension for the new stadium so that building the stadium doesn't have to disturb the sea grass.
I would then propose that the developer(s) in conjuction with the city develope that entire area (Trop Field) bordered by sixteen st. ( to the west) - first Ave. ( to the north) - Fourth Ave. (to the south) and 9th St. (to the east)into some type of modern cultural / entertainment center,IE: rebuilt a new modern and bigger Mahaffey Threater, relocate The Dali Museum, built several small retail venues, outdoor cafe's. That area has some serious promise if developed correctly.

[Jimbo]

Why do you keep pushing this, Justin? The fact is, you're trying to conjure up another reason for the people on the fence to go to your side. As you pointed out, you're against it? Just peddling this fear is doing nothing for your cause. Come up with real facts and then maybe you'll be able to make a compelling argument. Doomsday theories of how big business "attempts" to take out the little guy every chance it gets is played out.

Try thinking of positives of why NOT to build a stadium for a change, instead of the glorified negatives.

[Bodog]

Absolutely, I can't see them putting anything else there.

[Justin Elza]

Jimbo, your argument doesn't even make sense. I'm saying the referendum needs to be worded so that the citizens can decide precisely whether they want Al Lang to be used for a new baseball stadium or not.

If your for the stadium, how could you possibly be opposed to that?

If you are arguing that the referendum should not be worded in such a way, I have to question your judgment or your motives.

[Erick]

Stephen- you can laugh all you want but before Tampa Bay area became a NFL city it was ruled by soccer yes soccer, St. Petersburg had no sport franchise whatsoever..the average attendance was 25,000 for the Rowdies and a exhibition game in the late 70's sold-out Big Sombrero stadium...but you probably don't know that because you are not from this area

[Jimbo]

No, Justin, you're trying to turn this around to make your negative sound like a positive, like you're trying to do some good. If it's put into the referendum that they need to be held accountable and put a stadium only, it makes it seem like we don't trust them, and it gives more ammo for the naysayers to use against them and the proposal. If we, the supporters, say don't put it in for that reason (or any other), it makes it seem like we're part of some grand conspiracy, and that too, will draw people to the opposition. So, I refuse to answer your question one way or another, since the question, in itself, is loaded and any answer given will result in a negative response.

However, I will pose a question at you (and any other person against the stadium): why is it that all the naysayers can talk about is the negatives of the new stadium, not the positives of keeping the status quo? I personally agree that a new stadium should be built, but you can go through numerous blogs and read my pros and cons list. I can go through countless more blogs and read all the cons thrown out there about not leaving the norm. Why not some pros of leaving the norm? It's a new concept, I know, but with every decision in life, there are always pros and cons. I still have yet to hear the pros of leaving everything as-is today. Can someone enlighten me with them?

[Justin Elza]

I will answer your question if you answer mine.

Are you opposed to the referendum question being worded as such:

“Do you allow the city and the Rays to enter into a long-term (30-year) lease on the Al Lang Site for the primary purpose of constructing and operating a new major league baseball stadium”?

If your answer is no, then tell me how you think it should be worded.

[Jimbo]

Once again I am not answering a loaded question like that, especially when you're now proving you want nothing to do with a stadium; you just want another reason to lambaste the idea.

I don't care if you answer mine, however. I already know there's not enough pros to justify not building it. I was just giving you your chance to defend your point.

[Soccer Blows DogNutz]

hey Erick,
how are the Mutiny doing in Tampa these days?

[Justin Elza]

I think your refusal to answer a simple question speaks volumes. That wording couldn't possibly be construed as showing we're mistrustful of the Rays. You're telling me someone who knew nothing about this whole thing who read that wording would think it shows we don't trust the Rays?

Give me a break.

I will, however, go ahead and answer your question, because I have no problem defending my position.

You're correct actually, first of all. I am unable to answer your question regarding the pros of maintaining the status quo since, now that the Rays are relocating their spring training games, we are forced to consider new uses for the Al Lang site.

However, let’s consider some of the many pros of alternative plans.

1. If we fix up Al Lang and let college and/or community teams play there we have the advantage of having more venues in which to watch and play baseball. College games are played earlier in the year than pro games, so we also get to watch games in better weather. Little league having a place to hold their championships would be awesome too. The looks on the kids faces alone would be priceless.
2. We could also put a little Museum of Spring Training History on the site, which I think would be really cool.
3. If we convert the parking area north of Al Lang into parkland with amenities suitable for Saturday Morning Market and other venues (a covered eating area, a stage area, broad walking path, etc) we get a much better location for the Saturday Market and an added spot for cool events like concerts and plays. We also have more green space, more trees, and don’t have to fill in the bay, which is a positive!
4. If we allow the Rays to build a new, state of the art stadium adjacent to the Trop and develop part of the land that is now parking into a mixed use area, we get the best of both worlds! That would enable easier access to traffic coming to the game and more dedicated, on site parking than the waterfront stadium will provide.
5. Not sanctioning a 500 million dollar project like this is a positive because of the risks involved. What if the developer goes bankrupt? What if some unknown variable causes the price to skyrocket and the taxpayers are left holding a very stinky bag? Not having these worries is to me a very positive thing.

There are many more I can mention if you’d like.

[Justin Elza]

But I think its suspicious you refuse to address the referendum wording. Surely there must be a wording we both can agree on. I'm actually surprised you don't like the wording I came up with.

If you want a stadium there, don't you think we should let the citizens vote FOR A STADIUM TO BE THERE?

[Ned the Wino]

I cAiNt wAtE tIl tHeY GeT tHaT oLe arEa reNoVaiTed
HoPe thEy gOt pLenTy of nEw PaRk BeNChes oN OrDeR

Im goNnA cLaIm oNe 'FoR tHoSe piJunS mOVe sOutH!!!

WiLl tHeRe be a LiKKeR StOre neArBye???

[Dum And DUBMER]

"2. We could also put a little Museum of Spring Training History on the site, which I think would be really cool."

and obviously, you are THE DUMMEST!!!

[Justin Elza]

Thanks for sharing.

[Erick]

Redneck Dognutz - The Mutiny were folded because they played in a 60,000 seat stadium, the same would happen if the Rays played at RJS...

[Old Guy]

Regardless of the next use for the Trop it cannot be a flop or the tax revenue generated that is slated to pay for the new Al Lang won't be there.

The Signature Place developer wants to pay $100 million for the Trop site. Might as well sell him the Skyway as well. He must be nervous about the Al Lang redevelopment.

[Erick]

Building a stadium for a professional soccer team could bring the San Jose economy $62.3 million a year, a report accepted by the city council said Tuesday.

That's what we need in St. Pete