Public debate on Rays' stadium plan: Round 2

ST. PETERSBURG -- The Tampa Bay Rays $450-million stadium plan goes back before the public starting at 6 o'clock tonight when the City Council holds a public forum on the potential redevelopment of Tropicana Field.

Hundreds of people, for and against the project, are expected at City Hall to voice their opinions on the Rays' plans. But the City Council is not expected to make any decisions tonight.

Opponents are urging people to start signing up to speak at 4 p.m. and are e-mailing potential talking points.

Proponents say they plan to present a petition of 100 business owners supporting a November referendum on the stadium and redevelopment proposal.

You can get up to speed on the Tropicana redevelopment proposals here. Otherwise, check back later for updates from tonight's meeting.

UPDATE (5:15 p.m.) -- We're here in City Hall about 45 minutes before tonight's public hearing. Already about 100 people have filed speaker cards in either favor, or opposition of the Rays' plan. About 65 of them are asking to address the council later tonight. For both sides, the event has turned into a mini-election, with everyone attempting to rustle support.

UPDATE (5:55 p.m.) -- Okay, five minutes until show time. The chamber already is full and council members are beginning to take their seat. Council chairman Jamie Bennett is in Washington D.C. tonight, so vice chairman Jeff Danner will be running the show. And for everyone keeping score, Mayor Rick Baker is in the house tonight.

UPDATE (6:20 p.m.) -- We're on our fourth speaker, architect and POWW member Steve Lange, who is reading (as fast as he can) a lot of information about the city's comprehensive plan. We've already heard two threats of a lawsuit and now Lange adds the possibility of recalling City Council members. Lange and others are asking the council not to hold a November referendum on the stadium proposal, saying its a waste of city resources and the Rays would be able to manipulate or dupe would-be voters.

UPDATE (6:50 p.m.) -- The Rays just made their case. President Matt Silverman and vice president Michael Kalt asked City Council members to stay the course and let voters decide on the proposal. So far, I'm calling speakers 12-8 against.

UPDATE (7:20 p.m.) -- I won't get to do this in the paper, but blogging is a different animal. So here goes. My favorite speech of the night goes to Lee Nolan. His best quote: "What is wrong with Tropicana Field? How about the sorriest team in all of professional sports." Ouch, Lee. The Rays won today.

UPDATE (7:45 p.m.) -- Unofficial numbers, but speakers so far are 28-26 against (this doesn't include the 100 business owners who submitted a petition supporting the Rays' proposal). Lorraine Margeson is at the mic, using her three minutes to raise questions about the soil underneath Tropicana Field. The site is the former home of a gas manufacturing plant. City officials say its not a serious issue. Margeson does not agree.

UPDATE (7:48 p.m.) -- Media darling Joan Martin just got her turn. She's the woman with making fashion statements with her "Save the Dome" gear. She again recalled her chance meeting with Richard Simmons at a Tropicana Field event. "Who voted you into the office? Was it the Rays or people like me?"

UPDATE (8:04 p.m.) -- A woman from Bayfront Tower just told the council: "I wouldn't put an addition on my house faster" than the Rays want to push this stadium proposal. An addition on the condo would probably be a tough sell...

UPDATE (8: 20 p.m.) --"I heard Miss Margeson talking to a reporter outside. She said 90 percent of the people in St. Petersburg were agains the Rays plan," said a man representing a union of construction workers. "I'll give you the best poll. Take it to the people of St. Petersburg."

UPDATE (8:30 p.m.) -- "The situation demands a referendum," said former council member Jay Lasita, who is working with one of the bidders to redevelop Tropicana Field. "You should never fear what the outcome of what the vote is going to be. They are the ones that pay the bills."

UPDATE (8:40 p.m.) -- A pro-stadium resident just wrapped up listing some of the positive environmental aspects of the Rays' proposal. In the back of council chambers, Hal Freedman (POWW leader) was cringing.

UPDATE (9:20 p.m.) -- My up to date, unofficial count: 113 for, 86 against.

UPDATE (9:45 p.m.) -- The final unofficial tally, between 115-for and 90 against. Michael Kalt has just declared victory. See you all tomorrow.

UPDATE (9:50 p.m.) -- I wanted to add one more quote before I shut the laptop down for the night. This one is from Hal Freedman, leader of POWW, who told council members his group is NOT against a referendum. Just against one without all the facts being known: "We have no problem with the public voting and in fact welcome it. (But) based on all the unknowns, there is no reason to rush this on the Rays schedule."

-- Aaron Sharockman, Times staff writer

Comments

[rick]

The Tropicana redevelopment won't come any where close to paying for the new stadium ,plus the parking situation will never be addressed properly.Did you know we can build a power plant to produce and sell cheap eletric for commercial and residential for the entire greater tampa area and it would cost less money than building this sports venue.

[Alex]

Instead of spending $450 million on a stadium, why doesn't the City of St. Petersburg just buy the Rays? Then the team can be kept in the Trop forever.

Toronto owns the Blue Jays, so that sort of arrangement is possible.

[Frank]

Field a winning team and let the fans come to the "Trop"! 72 Air Conditioned degrees thats my kind of baseball....

[William]

This city needs the new stadium. All you old people and cowards need to move somewhere else. Just look at the city of Baltimore and how much that downtown stadium added to their economy. The Bucs used to be terrible, but they got new owners, the team turned around, got a new stadium and now everybody loves them here. Give the Rays and the new stadium a chance for pete's sake!

[Justin]

Rays need an open air stadium, its the only way to go and also instead of fixing the trop. every 5 yrs just build a new and more advanced park.

[JB]

How about Building a Winning Baseball Team first. They have done nothing but lose for the last 10 years. They are an embarrassement to this area and the new Owners are just pulling the wool over all of your eyes. These guys are no good.

[Not Gonna Happen]

William, I am not old and I am not a coward, I am however, a highly intelligent human who will not automatically "buy" the hype that MLB throws out to force municipalities to bend to their will. MLB is tyrannical in its will to extract dollars that inevitably wind up in the personal pockets of ownership - while your family pays for years and years to come. It is the pattern in city after city - just check it out and learn something.
And I will be staying here as a 5th generation. You leave with your cavalier attitude and shallow thoughts. You are the type who ruins our great city.

[Justin Elza]

I am all for the new stadium...

If they build it somewhere more suitable and pay for it themselves!

[Bobby]

I LOVE the Rays' plan! Can't wait to watch a game outdoors right on the water... it's gonna be a sweet, sweet day.

[Matt]

I agree with Bobby. It is going to be awesome watching a game on the downtown waterfront. The Rays plan is well thought out and a good deal for the city and the organization.

[Please]

The stadium will make St. Petersburg a destination city for lots of people around the country. Let's face it, cities are becoming more modern, more efficient. Baseball is an outdoor game. The city is losing a great chance to enhance a lot of aspects about it at not much cost.

Does the deal benefit the Rays' owners? YES. But that does not mean it won't transform St. Petersburg to an awesome place to relax, grab a bite to eat at burgeoning private restaurants, check out an art gallery, walk along the bay, and then see a game in a state of the art stadium -- all while creating environmentally efficient mixed use "work, eat, play, live" housing where the Trop is now -- housing that would, as the team insists, at a price point the middle class could afford.

Ug. People who are against it just are not getting it. I really feel it's win-win all around.

[veej]

If you want a stadium on the water let them build it out at Gandy where there are many transpiration corridors and lots of fans can reach it more easily. And let them pay for it - that would be a first for MLB.

[Justin Elza]

Not gonna happen.

[naw]

Yes to redeveloping the Trop with the Trop on it. NO to ruining the waterfront.

The downtown is already a great place to work, live and relax. And the city also has the best art community in Florida. When the parking spaces are taken by fans, the other downtown business, art galleries, museums and restaurants will be ghost towns.

The other urban stadiums were built in slum and blighted areas - our waterfront is not blighted.

[Tuck]

The proposals for the Tropicana field site look incredible. The Al Lang property is where the stadium should have gone in the first place. I fully support the proposal.

[Paul in St Pete]

We are a destination, our downtown is 'vibrant', we are doing just fine. We don't need a walmart stadium hogging up the waterfront. What a monster chunk of crap! Yo' Sternberg, don't bump your nose on the plane door back to NYC

[Dave]

This issue is a sample of whats wrong with our society today. The fear of the unknown. For all of those who fear the ruining of the City or the Waterfront, you need not fear that. History in other areas show the complete opposite. One of the other bloggers cited Baltimore. I will give you 2 others, Denver and Cleveland. Both of those areas were run done dumps now google and you will see an unbelievable area. Another item that people do not understand. The redevelopment of the current Trop is not designed to pay for the new staduim fully. The Rays are putting up a large chunk, the redevlopment will offer a portion. Then the city will put up the rest. Then the City will get those costs back plus some after you factor in the taxes that will be generated from the new properties. On top of that the revenue that will be generated from the new businesses that will come to the area as it grows. You can also factor in the property value increases for the surrounding area. Which will increase tax revenues. People need to sit down and understand that this is AWESOME for the city. For the others who want to bring up the Team itself have no leg to stand on. This current ownership group has barely had this team for 2 years. You can not use the Vince Namoli time frame against Sternberg and his group. They are moving this team towards being very successful on the field. This stadium is another piece to making this Franchise viable in MLB. Take it to the people and let the votes be counted.

[Sandurz]

Hey Paul,

So are all those homeless people living on Fourth Street considered 'vibrant'?

And what exactly is a 'Wal-Mart Stadium'? One that's run by a bunch of minorities?

[Wake Up Time]

Why does it always seem like people always oppose what the do not understand. This City is growing and will continue to grow long after most of you naysayers are dead. This project will just be another step forward in making this City a international destination it should be. Time for all those who oppose to move and and accept that you fight the wrong fight. Why dont all the people who oppose this spend there time going after more important issues like insurance reform and health care. Since I am a resident in the downtown and have been for 18 years and I have the pleasure to say I fully support the stadium unlike the whiners in the Bayfront towers who think they are entitled to complain because they are so close. Jeez people wake up, they complain if people are having fun at Get Downtown and there is a little bit of noise. YAH for the Grand Prix Extension. Instead of being the problems, be the solutions to help this City become event better.

[Paul in St Pete]

A 'Walmart stadium' is a large corporate entity that invades an area and dominates it, squashing the existing established lifeblood. Yes, I've seen the homeless. What about them? I also go to a handful of restaurants on my lunch break from my job downtown, visit many of the 186 outdoor events downtown each year, participate in several of the runs and the big triathlon downtown and enjoy the parks quite often. Do you have an opinion of your own, or are you just into jabbing at other who can think?

[My Town]

Dave - buddy - you need to catch a clue about this financial deal. The city must do the environmental remediation under the Trop - only part of the site was mitigated last time and it cost 6 million in 1986. The state Department of Environmental Resources sued the city last time and they have recently said there is more to be done. The city also must come up with new infrastructure for both developments. Those are NEW TAX DOLLARS and YOU are going to pay them from your pockets.

New business will generate new revenue, but it will not all go to the city. It will be split between the county, schools board, juvenile welfare board, SWFTMUD, and other taxing authorities....but the city will have to pay out for the costs! Not a good deal.

Denver, Cleveland and Baltimore were built in slum and blighted areas - our downtown is in no way blighted. Millions of people already visit downtown every year. You are comparing apples to oranges.

I am absolutely in favor of a referendum and as soon as possible. The voters hate this thing and will dump it right away. Speakers at the business associations and neighborhoods are finding out the facts and growing more and more angry everyday.

No waterfront stadium. Develop the Trop site with the Trop on it.

Bring it!

[Staying]

The Rays guy gave a speech at a neighborhood meeting to 40-50 people. He was pretty good and he answered the questions. After he left, the room erupted into a hate fest against the stadium. Wow! Who knew?

[Clueless My Town]

Once again I watch a see how uninformed you people are. Yes you are right about the environmental cleanup but not about how much is left. Most of the remaining clean exists only in the few parking lot are to the south of the stadium. As for new revenue the city and county would split 80 percent of the revenue and Swiftmud and 1 other group split the rest. Neither School system or JWB would get any of it especially if the sales tax amendment goes through. As for infrastructure most of it would be paid for by the Builder and funds from FDOT and Federal Transportation could be found. Minor issue in the scheme of things. Dont go throwing out crap when you do not know whats up. When push comes to shove the poeple will back a winner.

[Simon]

There is no way the city will not get stuck with a bill. The owners will come hands in pocket and say they need more money.

[Your Killing me]

Knock Knock Charley,

Wake up Time.

[Tuck]

I have yet to read an alternative project recommendation for the Al Lang site from those who oppose the new stadium.

Spring Training is gone. There is very little chance of attracting another team to that field. And Spring Training only lasts a few weeks of the year anyways.

Who supports leaving an old, dormant baseball stadium on the waterfront? Not me.

My hat goes off to the Rays for taking the initiative towards finding a viable solution. Too bad so many pessimists criticize their plans without providing any new ideas.

I think that the majority of the people will see through the selfishness of a few, realize the positive ramifications these projects will have on St. Pete, and will VOTE YES.

[Not rich]

I am really skeptical when there is a gang that is against allowing a decision to be made the voters. All I hear from the "opposition groups" is "kill any research for hope", which is not the American way! Let the citizens of St. Pete decide!, not some rich condo owners.

[Jordan]

I hope this new stadium gets built. As an architecture student, I think the design is great and would enhance the St. Pete skyline and make it a destination for baseball fans across the country.

For those of you wanting to watch a baseball game in an air conditioned stadium just stay home and watch it on TV. It's stupid to have a dome in Florida. Last time I checked Florida was known for having nice weather! A field on the waterfront would be a great addition to the city and would attract even more people downtown, not turn them away. I know I would drive from Tampa to see games if they were played on the waterfront.

The redevelopment of the Trop. site can only help the city grow. The sea of concrete surrounding the dome now is disgusting and a major waste of space.

Baseball is not meant to be played indoors! Anybody that has ever played the game should agree.

[Thor]

Well well well, Thor is amused. Hey Justin Ezra, what about tonight big guy, Thor would like to know what happened, you guys were out done once again. Thor has told you people that there are many more for this than the silly little POWW people. Pitiful, Odd wicked wackos. Thor knows many people are for this very cool and wonderful idea. Hey Justin, Thor invites you to come over from the dark side. Hey Charley, yes anyone for it must be crazy, sure like the save the trop lady who wants to save Richard Simmons she on your side Chuck. Sorry Charley, Thor knows you are wrong too. Hey Justin, "It's GONNA happen" you know it and so does Thor. Thor has spoken, Thor is wise, Thor is brave, Thor is gonna watch baseball on the waterfront in 2012!

[Jesse]

Our education system in pinellas county just lost 20 million in budget cuts and were gonna WASTE 450 million on a new stadium when the trop is beautiful (except for the roof)..Ive been a season ticket holder for 2 years and have been going to games since 2000..I know I dont wanna sit in the humid summer heat..I have been to a marlins game in the summer the year after they won the world series and NOBODY was there..After talking with some Marlins fans they said the reason is the heat..if anything spend 80 million for a new straight roof..Plus parking is perfect..Do you wanna take a shuttle ride to the game in the heat with 20 other hot sweaty bodies crammed in a shuttle...I dont..OUT

[Lorraine]

I'm sorry, Aaron, but with CONA representing over 100 neighborhood associations, I think the "card" tally (and I'd be checking addresses given on those cards, I'm getting sick and tired of union leaders from TAMPA AND the OWNER OF THE TEAM SEEKING OUR MONEY speaking FOR THE STADIUM PROPOSAL........duh!!!). ) CONA alone IS A SLAM DUNK on numbers against at this meeting.............

[Lorraine]

I was just kidding, trying to be like Jesse. I am all for the stadium. Everyone know Cona in this town is a sham and should be ignored. The new stadium project is amzaing and i wish I could vote today. Thank you City Council for thinking of this great idea. Cona, go home and worry about garbage collection.

[Don in St. Pete]

You folks need to figure it out and fast. If the stupid yahoos pushing the new stadium get their way, we'll be in line for DRAMATIC tax increases. Not a couple of Mils but staggering tax increases until the stadium is built and the Trop Site is developed. Those of you blogging for a new stadium must live in Tampa or Jacksonville. The 300 mil their talking about that we have to contribute, stacks up as $450 mil after the bonds have been issued and what about the $142 mil we still owe on the trop? Get a clue you losers or pay for it yourselves if you're so in favor of it.

[God is speaking]

Thor dropped his hammer on his head and smokes to much weed. The people have spoken and will speak again. Thors father has spoken! The stadium deal will die. THE POLLS ARE GOING TO PROVE IT!!

[don in St. Pete]

Not Rich, nobody is against letting the electorate decide, we just want all of the facts to be presented. How would you feel about signing a motgage and then finding out you actually had to pay double what they said you would? Duh???????????? Do the math!

[Dr_Dug]

What about a circus by the waterfront? Imagine a ferris wheel, rides with dining and shopping. It would compliment first night, Baywalk and other events and offer a little something for everyone. A Coney Island in St. Pete. Its a great idea if anyone is listening.

[Don in St. Pete]

Those of you who are for the stadium need to do alittle research. They want the stadiums just so they can sell the team at a handsome markup. The owners don't give a c rap for the taxpayers and citizens of St. Pete. They just want to turn a handsome profit, The sooner you understand that the leveler the playing field gets. Let `em leave I say, we'd be better off without them than financing their $592 million public tax grab.

[Sittin w/Thor in 2012]

Lorraine, CONA issued an opposition report before knowing all the facts, or even waitin for a financing plan to come out. They also issued it claiming to represent all its members, when there was no vote within CONA, only a series of closed door meetings. The CONA report reads like the POWW website, and they should be ashamed of themselves for putting words in the mouths of other neighborhood associaitons and their members. CONA = POWW.

[Jackie]

The Dome Lady is freakin hilarious. All the stadium opponents who agree with her need a major sanity check.

[CONA doesn't speak for me]

CONA sucks. They oppose everything. Once this thing gets to the ballot in 2008, we'll have a sweet new stadium on the water.

[Vote in 2008]

Don, if you don't like what you hear by Novemer of 2008, then vote no. Nobody is forcing anyone to "sign a mortgage." Voters are smart enough to decide if they have satisfactory information. You just want to delay the vote so you and your little band of POWW people can try to hijack an election with lower voter turnout. 2008 will be the most democratic election to vote on this issue because the most people will be voting.

[Vote in 2008]

Don, if you don't like what you hear by Novemer of 2008, then vote no. Nobody is forcing anyone to "sign a mortgage." Voters are smart enough to decide if they have satisfactory information. You just want to delay the vote so you and your little band of POWW people can try to hijack an election with lower voter turnout. 2008 will be the most democratic election to vote on this issue because the most people will be voting.

[Biz Owner]

Many of the 100 businesses who support the stadium are successful businesses who have helped turn this City around. They've waited patiently to have a critical mass of customers, so lets keep the downtown renaissance going and invest in our city. I challenge the opponents of this plan to list one city where a baseball stadium built in the last 15 years has created the kinds of problems they insist will happen here. POWW is all about scare tactics. Look to Baltimore, Cleveland, San Francisco, Denver, San Diego, etc, etc, etc. Property values have gone up, business is booming, and the downtowns attracts more people and spending from the suburbs. That means jobs, more tax revenue, and more opportunity.

[Frank LaChat]

There are some good comments out there on both sides, and some petty nah-nah-nah things, too. Which do you suppose sways the most people? Oh, maybe that's not what this blog is supposed to do. Maybe it is just for chest-thumping.

[Edward]

Stand on the field just to the south of the PAC and try to imagine a 35-story concrete spire holding up the wires that support the sail... and *then* tell me this is a good idea. This would totally destroy your waterfront, don't do it.

[Matt]

I'm not going to say whether I am for or against the stadium. I have strong feelings, but I am going to try to mask them in this post.

My main issue is how people are trying to inhibit the will of the people. This should be put up to vote, and you should think that whether you are for or against it. Anything else and you are against democracy. Anything else you are simply saying that your desire trumps your fellow citizens, even if you are in the minority.

The way our system and our American ideology works is that these issues should be put to vote of the public. If it passes, then that is the will of the people. If it doesn't, then that is the will of the people.

Any result that does not come about because of a vote is not the American way.

[Mac Herndon]

I'm not currently living in the St. Petersburg area but I do visit the area 2-3 times a year. I'm considering retiring to the area but that would only happen if a new ballpark is built for the Rays. I have been through all of the arguments over building a new ballpark for the Washington Nationals. It finally got done and Nationals Park is a great place to watch baseball. Maybe one day there will be a World Series involving the Nats and Rays.

[John]

For all of you against the new stadium, PLEASE put your energy into talking the city into letting the Rays out of their lease instead. That way, you can keep your beloved Trop, you wouldn't have any owners who are supposedly trying to stab you in the back and another city nearby can embrace the team. It's a win-win for everybody!

[Matt]

Does a new stadium really constitute a higher attendance at games? Does anyone really want to sit outside on a hot summers night to watch a team that will struggle? I know the Rays are going to be better in the future, however this is America, and Americans only care about the NOW! First lets produce a winning team, (which is on the horizon), then we can discuss a new ballpark that will also increase attendance. Just be patient, all Tampa Bay sports teams stuggle at first. (With the exception of the Storm). The Lightning took quite some time before they were a feared club. Don't get me started about the only NFL team that has an all defeated season. Years later, the Bucs and Lightning are continuous contenders and sell out quite often now. Its a trend, and the Rays are moving in the right direction. Just wait and see before you move the team and tear apart downtown.

[Bill]

Aside from a few cranky retirees, most of the citizens in St. Pete support a new waterfront stadium. I'm a resident of a downtown neighborhood and cannot wait to see this ball park built. Local businesses will thrive and property values will rise as St. Pete becomes a summertime tourist desitantion. It will be beautiful. CONA and POWW are just bitter and they seem to whine and complain about everything. If you have visited a city with a new ballpark and see the positive impact it has had such as Baltimore, San Fran,. DC etc. it's a no brainer that this will benefit St Pete in a very positive manner.

[Ron]

Maybe the Rays should use Al Reyes as their public spokesman for the new stadium. For everyone who is against it, he can just punch them & spit blood on them until they agree to vote yes.

[Don in St. Pete]

Just you know where I'm coming from, I'm a crochety old b@stard that in envious of anyone that actually attempts to accumulate wealth. I believe that we should all be taken care of by the government and that everyone should have the same things whether they work harder or not. Anyone that's making more money should be TAXED!
I also think we should leave Al Lang where it is and turn it into a new hub for the bums to sleep in to give some relief to Williams Park.

Did I mention that I am also a constipated old cuss?

[Bill]

The funniest part about this whole thing is going to be when the electorate votes and the limp wristed libs that oppose the stadium are out voted 3-1.

Make a bunch of noise! No one wants a new stadium! Wrong. People like nice things and you can complain all you'd like - the people with money get what they want. I want a new stadium so guess what...I'm getting a new stadium.

Walmart stadium? Wait let me guess...You're a part of this group of economic neophytes that think Walmart is evil. Hysterical. Watch the Penn & Teller show on Showtime and you'll find out about the people who oppose Walmart - they are essentially racists.

Here's my suggestion: Everyone who opposes the stadium go to your local FedEx Kinkos and get the largest roll of bubble wrap you can find. Then take all of the Birkenstocks out of your closet and dump them in the middle of your floor. Wrap them up, throw them in the back of your 86 Volvo wagon and head for the hills. Funny that you're so concerned about taxes yet your trash kind has been known to live in areas with CITY INCOME TAX.

It's so funny that you weaklings actually think you'll be able to get this stadium proposal squashed. IT'S HAPPENING!

[Rush Limbaugh]

MEGA Dittos to Bill

well played Sir