In support of intelligent design

 
A majority of Pinellas County School Board members - including the immediate past president of the National School Boards Association - think that if Florida children are taught about evolution, they should learn other theories on the origin of life as well.

Board members Jane Gallucci, Carol Cook, Peggy O'Shea and Nancy Bostock (shown above, left to right) stopped short of saying that faith-based theories should be included in the state's proposed new science standards, which the state Board of Education likely will vote on in February. The new standards would include Darwin's theory of evolution and do not mention faith-based theories such as intelligent design or creationism.

But all four said such theories should be taught in public school classrooms.

"I think that students should be given the opportunity to view all theories on how man evolved and let their science background and their religious background take over as to which one they believe in," said Gallucci, the immediate past president of the National School Boards Association.

Bostock: "The entire theory of evolution is not scientific fact. Intelligent design balances it out."

Cook: "To teach one as if nothing else existed, I think we're doing our students a disservice."

O'Shea suggested that parents who object to evolution being taught to their children might be able to opt them out of that day's lesson. "I'd probably ideally like to keep it all out of the classroom," she said. "If it's going to create this much controversy, how important is it?"

See the whole story in tomorrow's St. Petersburg Times and on tampabay.com. Also tomorrow, the Gradebook will provide more in-depth responses from all the Pinellas School Board members on the issue. To see the board members' full remarks, click here.

- Donna Winchester and Ron Matus

Comments

[Robert]

Will,

A recent article in Wired stated that scientists are finding that the "junk DNA" which they once thought was leftover, useless, etc. has a wealth of information in it. Birds have DNA capable of producing teeth. Now why would birds have DNA that could produce teeth? Unless birds and something with teeth were somehow related across the eons. Nah, I guess some supreme being put it in there in case he ever needed a parrot with bite.

[MikeG]

Ugh... I couldn't wade through all the comments, but wow... Evolution violates the second law of thermodynamics. Yeah. If evolution didn't violate the second law, we would have to have a huge influx of energy into the system. That would entail a massive thermonuclear furnace within a reasonable distance, maybe a parsec or so. Too bad no such thing exists! Deal with that you crazy evolutionists!
[off camera}
What? The sun is a massive thermonuclear furnace? It's a parsec away by the definition of 'parsec'? Dangit!
[/off camera]

[Sceptical Chymist]

If the dear ladies are going to advocate teaching all the theories of the origin of species in biology, and not just evolution, the least they can do is to teach astrology in astronomy classes, alchemy in chemistry classes, water divining in geology classes, homeopathy in medical classes,reading the entrails of chickens in meteorology classes, and all the other many many faith-based theories for which there is absolutely no evidence, and which are contrary to observation. As G.K. Chesterton, the Catholic poet wrote in a poem entitled "The Microbe", Never, never let us doubt, What no one is sure about!

[Paul T.]

Here are the facts Ladies. If you teach Intelligent Design you will be sued, you will lose and it will cost your school district millions. Oh, and everyone will know, beyond a doubt, that you are all ignorant twits.

[Ernest Baker]

I am certain that the Pinellas County taxpayers look forward to paying the legal costs when the school board is sued for teaching intelligent design.

In Pennsylvania, the Dover Area School Board paid $1 million in legal fees to the attorneys that sued the district over its intelligent-design policy.

[firemancarl]

I read these stories with interest. I Iive in Daytona Beach and I wonder how soon before our school board says something this stupid. I am glad to see that there are many rational people who live in the Tampa area.

[BobC]

In a previous comment somebody linked to some information about the fossils called Tiktaalik roseae. These fossils were from animals who were an obvious transitional species between fish and land animals. I have discussed these fossils with creationists before, and always, without thinking, they claim these were just another animal that god made, and were not related to any other animal. Creationists are not interested in educating themselves. They are not interested in understanding anything. They are totally uninterested in science, especially any science that conflicts with their childish Bible stories. These people, including the 4 incompetent school board members Jane Gallucci, Carol Cook, Peggy O'Shea and Nancy Bostock, are just plain stupid and they are not qualified to have anything to do with what is in a biology class.

Fine, I say take out teaching "Darwinian" theory, (which is in fact the theory of adaption/survival of the fitest, and has nothing to do with evolution) and teach more Math, American students suck at Math anyways.

[supercrisp]

Hey, it's all good. When I used to go to Sunday school, I always got chemistry, physics, biology.... Hey, wait a minute, no I didn't! All I got was some stories about this guy name Zak something in a frikkin tree. Come down out that tree Zak-dude!

[Brian Rapp]

Jane Gallucci, Carol Cook, Peggy O'Shea and Nancy Bostock need to answer this question, as posed by PZ Myers.

Who is best qualified to make informed choices about complex scientific theories?

1. Scientists with years of training in the subject, and qualified science teachers who understand the fundamentals of the theory.
2. Creationists who won't even commit to an estimate of the age of the earth.
3. Members of the board of education who have absolutely no training in the sciences.
4. Children who are just being introduced to the topic for the first time, haven't read any of the primary literature, and who are entirely dependent on the competence of the instructors who have given them an outline of the general story.

[LostAlaskan]

I could go into a whole argument about scientific theory's versus religious theory's but after reading the comments above I think it's been brought up enough times that I'll just say this...

Those School board members are Pants on Head Retarded. Just because they're blinded by their irrational beliefs doesn't mean they should be able to push their Bronze Age Mythology on the rest of us. Otherwise the earth would still be flat and they'd have a witch burning to attend later.

[alan hill]

I just arrived in Pinellas from England where I lived for 2 days short of 60 years. I find the original American Constitution to be enormously attractive because there is no head of state tied to the church and as a person with no religious beliefs (very strongly held), America with it's enshrined freedoms and separation of church and state is the place for me. If religious people take over and pervert science and day to day common sense then the whole point of people leaving England to practise religious freedom here will have been nullified.

How can people living on a bed of sea shells compressed into limestone x hundreds of feet deep believe it was placed there in 6 days, 8000 years ago ?

If Florida schools start teaching that, then American astronauts will have to tightly close their eyes and try and levitate space craft by force of concentration and prayer rather than design a real spaceship with real science

[Phony]

"IF ANYONE disagrees, please show me RECENT ARTICLES that discounts ID (scientifically)"

There can be no single proof for this. Its a completely non-falsifiable hypothesis. Its like if i said there was a teapot orbiting the sun, just beyond mars's orbital path. As long as i said it was so small as to be invisible to all modern telescopes, nobody would be able to prove me wrong. There is an infinite number of such claims i could make. Invisible dragons in my garage. Flying spaghetti monsters. These claims, by their nature, are unfalsifiable, as long as every time someone produces evidence against them i add some extra fact to my claim explaining why not (the dragon in my garage is flying. thats why it leaves no footprints in the dust you spread on the ground).
We do, however, know certain things about the sheep god from the bible which are fairly easy to test. The very first double-blind study in a hospital on the effectiveness of prayer in healing the sick should rule him out as the intelligent designer in question. The existence of evil in our world suggests that god is ether malevolent of powerless, so our ID class will most likely involve some spiteful volcano god that humanity is forever at war with. A god that inflicts pointless suffering for its own sick amusement. A god that creates us with prostates that get inflamed, spines which from an engineering standpoint are far from perfect, cells that go cancerous at random, and viruses. god *loves* viruses even more than beetles if you go by number of varieties.

On an unrelated note, if everything is designed as in genesis, particularly with men being made before women...why do men have nipples?

To the person who was talking about how "we still haven't found a missing link", the number of gaps in the fossil record are greatly exaggerated by creationists. Yes, the fossil record is "incomplete" in the sense that we don't have every single fossil of every single organism that has ever lived, but it is staggeringly good. It is a common joke that every time a new missing link is found, creationists are thrilled because now there are twice as many gaps in the fossil record. I feel like I'm repeating myself, but this is a pretty compelling example of one such missing link:
http://www.daylightatheism.org/2006/04/hello-beautiful.html
another awesome example of evolution in the fossil record is the Archaeopteryx which is somewhere between birds and dinosaurs.
I've always been curious...how do creationists explain the existence of even one tyrannosaur skull?

[Amanda]

Ahem, and I do not drink, either.

[Kimberly]

Hey, James, mirco and macro evolution DON'T EXIST. It's just evolution, period. You can't make that distinction and science certainly does not. You are listening to the creationist, and that's proven it your next statement that ID is not a religion.. Uh, yes it is. It's called creationism, they just gave it another name. Also, evolution is not being proven wrong. That's not how science works. Go take an actual biology class.

[Gail]

God,
Please forgive what the fools do in your name.

[Amanda]

For the record, I am not an atheist. I cannot speak for the others here, but I would not judge them anyway- says a lot does it not?

[techskeptic]

Teach both sides!

Astronomy and astrology!
Psychology and phrenology!
Chemistry and alchemy!
Physics and Magic!

(hat tip to Auth)

You know.. there are some holocaust deniers we could get in to teach WWII in history class to while we are at it.

Hey, lets have classes in english AND spanish!

This continues to be so stupid its embarrassing. You four should be ashamed of yourselves.

[Amanda]

Kansas girl- thanks for the correction! =) I was thinking of the other one, obviously.

[rusty]

Can't we just saw Florida off at the panhandle, throw Bushie and all his slimy cronies and his 20% followers over there and let him be Emperor for life THERE and and let it drift off into the ocean?

[Ken]

The Flying Spaghetti Monster theory must be included as well.

[Kansas Girl]

Amanda- The Nova special was not about a trial in Kansas, it was Dover, PA. (Although I don't blame you for thinking that). Nice to know that we don't have all the loony ones!http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/nova/id/

[billy]

Public schools are what the students make of them. Creationism or divine design shouldn't be taught on the tax payer's dime. PERIOD. Schools don't unscrew the kids heads and dump in knowledge. Sorry you had to struggle so much in college Amanda- that should be a hint to everyone that college prep isn't for ALL students. I hope you had the drive to finish your tough classes, and not withdraw as many of our lazy students choose to do. Let's not open up that old "foreign schools are better" arguement. Education is simply more prized overseas- not an entitlement for students who are too spoiled to care. Thus the students work harder. How many of our students come home with no homework? How many students wouldn't bother to do it if it were assigned? This is a deep abyss- I guarantee the school board won't address- and rightly so- they have no support from families- which is where the problem begins.
Thanks for reading- I hope you guys feel that you've accomplished something in this online bitch session. Remember this when you vote or choose not to.

[B Todd]

Down here in Australia, we're wondering what other scientific facts are going to be subjected to the whims of faerie-tale believers on your school boards. Might I suggest the school board overrule education about another theory, that about gravity, and thus make space travel easier- at least for the board members?

YES, American education is indeed becoming a laughingstock in the rest of the educated world.

Simple, folks... it's provable or it's not. It's science or it's not.

Having lived in the US for 30-odd years, I know about American political apathy. It's because you mob didn't give a rat's about participating in your local political affairs that you got GW Bush and your school boards infiltrated by ultra-right wing religious nuts.

[God's brother-in-law]

I think we need to teach alternatives to the theory of gravity. Remember, it's just a theory. No one knows for sure what will happen if you actually did walk off a cliff. No one has ever reported back on those results.

I suggest we teach the Compassionate Cuddlier theory as an alternative to the Netwon's theory of gravity. CC theory states that the Earth longs to hug you and so it pulls down on your shoelaces to get you to hug her. Why can't we show both sides of this issue to our kids?

It takes a lot of faith to be an atheist!

May God bless the drunk chics on the board!

[test]

testtest

[Amanda]

Will- Try watching the Nova special, which you can find on Youtube, which goes over the recent trial in Kansas.

Also, I think the best part of that entire special on the trial was the woman who went over the older manuscripts of Pandas and People, and showed how the word "creation" was replaced with "intelligent design". I think that says it all.

If the Florida board tries to do what the old Kansas board tried recently, they will be violating law, and not just any law, but our Constitution.

[Amanda]

Bigyaz-

Because we love Florida =) When you are born here, you tend to stay here.

We have some of the best hospitals, and some of the best universities for medicine and other sciences. I have my guesses as to the reasoning for the best hospitals.

It makes one wonder what the deficit for actual Florida natives doing well in science is just in general, though, with the way our education system and curriculum are when compared to the top KD-12 schools. Anyone have any figures on what the percentage of science majors making good grades and graduating are? I would love to see them.

[Will]

I see a lot of bickering going on here. YAAAAY FOR DARWIN!!!!!! YAY FOR THE FACTS OF SCIENCE AND EVOLUTION BEING TRUE AND PROVEN CORRECT LIKE EVERYONE SEEMS TO BELIEVE!!!!

Now that I've grabbed your attention it seems there are a lot of pedantics in here that is being a little showy with their knowledge of evolution and the theory it holds. Now yes i know what a theory is, and yes i respect all religions, and yes i understand the difference between the likelihood of both theories...but gasp, i'm a christian. Weird how all the preconceived notions via idiots that try to prove creation correct through ignorance might stumble you in thinking all christians must be like that but here are some facts to jumble in your mind for tonight. Evolution should definitely without a doubt be taught in school as a theory, because the more you know the more you achieve! saw that in a commercial somewhere, anyway it should be taught as what it is..a theory. The theory of creation (gasp) should be taught as a theory...weird huh, like we're about to cross forbidden territory by discussing with fragile minds what a group of people on this earth believe...THE AUDACITY!!! Anyway when it comes down to it, NEITHER and let me repeat myself for you all that didn't get that through NEITHER theory has been proven. Creation is a theory that comes down to faith, and friggin teach that..let kids know and if its false then its false. Evolution is a theory based on..although an idiot, a very ambitious individual that we can all take a good lesson from. And seeing how his theories has been discounted over the years from lack of evidence..complete lack of evidence along w/ his partner in crime Freud..i don't see much going for people wanting evolution taught. and the fact that this universe is not so random but conditioned by biological factors, the EXACT factors that are able to sustain life seems to me that you all are speaking absurdity, but not my place to judge i'll leave that up to your mothers. seems like the pedantics and the chemistry and biology degree hs teachers might be a little stumped by the wiser and leading biologists, physists, etc. that are TELLING US that there is one word that describes how the earth was created..."miracle". Now its time to think what you want, i laid out what i've read by leading scientists, not pinellas county teachers or parents that are (and i can't figure out for the life of me) scared or outraged or in any way in disagreement w/ having their sons or daughters learn something..whether its based on science or not. Teach what the evidence is pointing to, and one more thing. IF ANYONE disagrees, please show me RECENT ARTICLES that discounts ID (scientifically) and proves, or gives facts that lean towards evolution being true. Thankyou peace be with you all AND MERRY CHRISTMAS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[Frank]

the 21st century and we still have people bumbling around superstitions...give me a break.
Fine, you want to teach religion in public schools then we need to teach both sides. On one side the 'faith' based opinions and then the those that refute the silliness. In the end I support Chad's idea except send the bill to the Church's instead.

[Infos.]

Call to let them know your opinion.

Dial 588-6000 + (extension)

Board Office extension: 6300

[Chad]

I suggest sending a bill to the school board for $1,000,000.00 dollars For future legal expenses after losing another trial in an attempt to push anti-scientific creationism mythology into the science classroom.

[Jaeger]

O'Shea:
"I’d probably ideally like to keep it ALL out of the classroom. If it’s going to create this much controversy, how important is it?"

Oh.. my.. God..

[muffler]

Science is science and religion is religion. The point of a science education is to give children science in a science class.

Creationism is NOT science. when it has been vetted through scientific process then we might consider it, but as long as the basis is faith - it is not science.

Any one who thinks children should be given a choice when evolution is based on real hard science is a creationist looking for an opening. It's not like asking them to decide on the flavor of the juicy juice they want. It's about trying to set the clock back 200 years because Evolution scares the bejeebus out of some people. It threatens their frail hold on their reality.

Science is Science and it is what has given the religious nuts the tools to type on the internet, phone their preacher, Watch GOD TV, look for Bible codes, listen to Rush on the radio, drive their car to K-Mart, microwave their hot pockets, and derail hundreds of fine science projects that expand human existence beyond the constructs of the myth.

[bigyaz]

Why do you people stay in Florida? It is easily the most screwed-up state in the land, and these elected officials are just one more example.

[Em]

Dennis,

A theory is a well defined hypothesis that still requires concrete testing to "prove it". In the case of evolution, its not "FACT" but it is theoretically accurate and accepted as the way things have most likely progressed given the knowledge we currently have and can currently obtain which, by the way, is != Fact.

And to further expand on your general chastisement of Jon: Evolution at one time could arguably favor the stronger and the better equipped members of a species but now with the practices of man, it really does fall along the side lines and in some arguments, actually favors illogical evolutionary progressions. For instance: how are we supposed to build a "mutant" immunity to afflictions caused by our environment and genetics if we keep attempting to cure them or elongate life and allow procreation? Or, in the cases of mother nature, keep species that have not built immunity to the current environment created by man and nature from going extinct?

To say that evolution moves towards perfection (what ever perfection is) is not only incorrect, it's really kind of a silly statement to make when you are talking about the mutations that have to occur for any species to evolve.

And I know this isn't an forum debating what evolution is but its annoying to have one group criticize the other over and over again for being ignorant when people are incorrectly asserting scientific theory as fact.

If anything, I would say ID should be at war with the Big Bang theory if anything at all. Darwin's Theory of evolution isn't necessarily about the creation of life or the creation of species, it's about the evolution of life and the evolution of species. I know we've already tried to bring Creationism into schools to override Big Bang... but lets at least compare apples to apples.

[Amanda]

Has anyone ever wondered why most of our doctors today are not from America?

When I was in grade school, we were not taught evolutionary concepts. When I graduated from HS I went straight to college to major in the life sciences. It was as if I was starting over grade school again. You get to work twice as hard to do well, meanwhile, the foreign exchange student from Japan does not study, answers all the professor's questions correctly, sometimes even teaching the professor a thing or two because they received a similar yet not even as advanced education as I did growing up, and makes straight A's, whilst I struggle to make the grade.

May God have mercy on all of your souls!

MERRY CHRISTMAS!

[From a European Prospective]

OK, I have read this, and I have to ask, as one who has recieved most of his education in the US (Aside from a second Bachelors degree in Scandinavia), I have a BA in Political Science (Not a real science mind you, but rather a social method of thought) and a JD (Juris Doctorate - ie I'm one of those evil lawyer types). My only redeeming quality in this debate is that I work for a pharmaceutical company.

So here are my two quatloos (Bonus points if you peg that reference).

If, as the ID "theorists" claim, evolution is false, please explain to me what a mutation is in a virus or bacteria. A Mutation is a form of evolution. As per Wikipedia "Mutations create variations in the gene pool, and the less favorable (or deleterious) mutations are reduced in frequency in the gene pool by natural selection, while more favorable (beneficial or advantageous) mutations tend to accumulate, resulting in evolutionary change."

Now, rad that last part again, "while more favorable (beneficial or advantageous) mutations tend to accumulate, resulting in evolutionary change." We know for a fact that viruses mutate. One of the reason viruses are so hard to combat in medicine is *because* they mutate. Some mutate to a point where they are no longer harmfull to humans to the same extent they used to be(When was the last time you read about the Black Death wiping out 50% of the population of a country since the Middle Ages?) and even those that are currently harmfull to humans will likely mutate or evolve to a point where either they are no longer harmfull to us (to the same extent that they are now) or where we will evolve to develope an immunity toward them.

The problem with ID and Creationism is that for it to hold true you must first accept the fallicy that the Theory of Evolution deals with the creation of life on this planet. It does not. It deals rather with how life on this planet has grown, mutated and evolved over the centuries into what we are today. That fallicy that evolution states that man is decended from the ape is an alarmist notion used for pure shock value by those who support ID and creationism to scare people into their views as obviously anyone who blieves we were monkeys can't be rational. To them I quote the following, "That if you take a law like evolution and you make it a crime to teach it in the public schools, tomorrow you can make it a crime to teach it in the private schools? And tomorrow you may make it a crime to read about it. And soon you may ban books and newspapers. And then you may turn Catholic against Protestant, and Protestant against Protestant, and try to foist your own religion upon the mind of man. If you can do one, you can do the other. Because fanaticism and ignorance is forever busy, and needs feeding. And soon, your Honor, with banners flying and with drums beating we'll be marching backward, BACKWARD, through the glorious ages of that Sixteenth Century when bigots burned the man who dared bring enlightenment and intelligence to the human mind!" (Inherit the Wind, 1960).

The views expressed by thos on here purporting to support ID and creationsim are no different than the views expressed in the Sixteenth Century. They are just dressed up for modern times. Legally, they have no place in the American Educational or Political system. The entire PCSB shold be disbannded as promoting uncostitutional principles and reconstituted by people who are free to *think*.

And yes, if ID and creationism are taught, then *every other version of the creation myth* should be taught as well. Especially the Gospel of the Flying Spaghetti Monster and his noodely appendage shall touch more hearts!

RAmen

[bushi]

posted by Em (snipped):

"With that said, I would greatly appreciate those of similar feelings on this topic to do their bests not to sound like uneducated apes by constantly calling Darwin's THEORY of Evolution, fact or proven. In science a theory remain a theory until it becomes a law. Until we refer to this as the Law of Evolution - stop calling it proven. "

Em, I respectfully suggest that you are slightly mistaken.

To be precise, the theory of evolution *is* a theory, NOT a hypothesis. Darwin's most famous for introducing the conept of "natural selection" which is closer to a hypothesis--a thought about the mechanism behind how evolution works.

"Darwin's theory of evolution" is an oversimplification to the point of being innacurate.

Evolution is a scientific fact--it's been proved to occur time and time again. Yes, proved.

I refer you to this excellent article:
http://sciam.com/article.cfm?articleID=000D4FEC-7D5B-1D07-8E49809EC588EEDF&pageNumber=1&catID=2

Evolution is a fact. Period. Intelligent design is a hypothesis.

have a good day!

[JG]

To the guy who posted the Thomas Paine quote-

He may have been a believer in God, but he was no Christian-

"Yet this is trash that the Church imposes upon the world as the Word of God; this is the collection of lies and contradictions called the Holy Bible! this is the rubbish called Revealed Religion!"
Thomas Paine

[Dave]

Creationists are liars.

Simple as that.

[Dennis]

Jon:

For someone claiming to have almost 100 credits of biology class, you seem to not know some of the very basics of science.

Despite your comment, evolution by no means "heads towards perfection". The theory never states that at all. It's essentially the change in gene frequencies and related phenotypic changes to adapt to different environmental niches. The more successful live longer and reproduce more, hence passing on those changes. Evolution is far from perfect, it is merely successful.

Then you ask why evolution is not a law and is just a theory, if it's a fact. Again, this is pretty basic science. A theory is as high as it goes. A theory is what describes and explains something. In this case the theory of evolution explains the fact of evolution. The use of "laws" is pretty much obsolete in science. After Einstein showed that Newton's "law" of gravity did not adequately explain gravitational attraction in all circumstances, and amended it in his General Theory of Relativity, science stopped naming anything else as a "law".

[Scott Waters]

This is one of the most arrogant, simple-minded things I have ever seen. There is no controversy, science and religion are two completely separate subjects, using a false dichotomy to further a theocratic agenda is absurd.

How did these people become involved in education? The school board should be ashamed.

EVOLUTION IS NOT A THEORY OF THE ORIGINS OF LIFE GAAAAAAAA!!!!!

[Dennis]

To those of you claiming the 2nd Law of Thermodynamics is violated by evolution, all you are doing is showing your ignorance of physics in addition to biology. Thermodynamics does indeed state that things run towards disorder...IN A CLOSED SYSTEM. Our earth is far from a closed system. We have this amazing thing called a sun which puts energy into our system. Within the earth, each ecosystem is NOT a closed system. THere are outside energy inputs. In turn, each individual organism is NOT a closed system, there are outside energy inputs. Please leave the science to those who actually know science...or at least learn the basics before you make such comments and try to force your beliefs on others.

[Gino Whitaker]

That's Florida for you. LOL

[gor]

There is absolutely no proof "intelligent design" exists. The very name is an oxymoron.

[Rog]

Notice how you can tell creationists OVER AND OVER what the meaning of a "scientific theory" is, but they refuse to listne or learn?

That's a creationist for you.

They do not learn.

They REFUSE to learn.

They are SCARED to learn.

Notice how you can tell a creationist OVER AND OVER that the theory of evolution has NOTHING TO DO with the origin of life, but they do not learn?

They REFUSE to learn.

They are SCARED to learn.

Creationists are cowards.

Terrified of education. Terrified of science.

And they REFUSE to learn.

Sad, pathetic human beings. Afraid of their own brains.