School grades up, AYP down

Potter Elementary School principal Tracye Brown, seated, checks out the school's state grade this morning while parent liaison Sylvia Knight-Brown, right, celebrates with assistant principal Kimberly Thompson. Looking on are Sharon Waite, left, a writing resource teacher, and secretary Klisa Smith. The school found out it had improved from an F to a C. [CARRIE PRATT | Times]

Florida schools posted a record number of A's and B's this year, but a growing majority of them also failed to meet federal standards under the No Child Left Behind Act, according to data released by the state Department of Education this morning.

Of 2,889 schools graded, 1,583 earned A's (55 percent) and 543 earned B's (19 percent). Meanwhile, the number of D and F schools dropped from 302 to 199. To see grades for individual schools, click here.

The improved grades are not a huge surprise, given statewide FCAT scores that rose in every grade and subject except fifth-grade reading. Students made especially strong gains in ninth- and tenth-grade reading, long a drag on high school grades. High schools also may have benefited from a tweak in the grading formula.

Like grades on a student report card, school grades can bring joy or shame, reward or sanctions. The grades, now handed out for a tenth straight year, are based on FCAT scores in reading, math, writing and science.

Schools that make A grades or improve their grades get a modest pot of reward money that totaled $129.3 million last year. Those that make poor grades are branded with the stigma and subject to increased oversight from the state.

Also released this morning: How Florida schools rate by federal standards.

Seventy-six percent failed to make Adequate Yearly Progress under the No Child Left Behind Act, up from 67 percent last year.

No Child mandates a series of escalating consequences for low-income schools that fall short. And this year, hundreds of Florida schools might have faced the possibility of restructuring. But U.S. Secretary of Education Margaret Spellings agreed last week to let Florida take a more nuanced approach, meaning many of those schools won't be in hot water after all.

Both Florida's grading system and the No Child ratings are based on FCAT scores, but they analyze the scores in different ways. Under the state system, a school's overall scores might be modest, but if its struggling students are making gains, the school can still earn an A or B. Under the federal system, a school's overall scores might be excellent, but if minority, low-income or disabled students fall short, the whole school is deemed in need of improvement.

Vincent Velez of Oldsmar, 9, reacts as Sunset Hills Elementary School fourth grade teacher Christine Crawford reads a book to him Tuesday at Pinellas County schools' summer reading camp at San Jose Elementary in Dunedin. Vincent was among 102 students attending the intensive reading program, which meets from 8 a.m. to noon five days a week. [DOUGLAS R. CLIFFORD | Times]

Comments

So what? Florida's #1 growth industry is the PRIVATE PRISON industry!

The more drop-outs the more inmates and the few that do graduate can get low-paying jobs as prison guards!!!

All's happy in the Republican world!!!

Remember in November!!!

[Carrie]

Figures now that the Choice program is going away, the next school my son will be forced to attend in the neighborhood fell from an A to a C. Fabulous.

[Mel]

Too many stupid behind people equals having stupid children. Not entirely the school systems fault!!

[Donna]

The grade of the school your children attend has very little to do with how your child performs. Both my children attended a C high school but stuck with Honors and A/P courses and both were admitted to the college of their choice. It is up to your student to learn what they need to learn. Also, it's interesting to note that the high schools with the higest letter grades are also the ones with the lowest Free and Reduced Lunch percentage.

[Jay]

I'm sorry, but I can't get excited that schools have now learned how to "cook the books" and "teach the test". However, No Child Left Behind is an absolutely HORRIBLE program, and should be abolished by the next administration, if not sooner.

[Smart Man]

You can't teach to the Test......... That shows how dumb some of you are..... Teachers do not know what will be on the test from year to year, they just have an idea... if we knew what the test lookedlike, we would all make A's!

[Ron]

For several years they have thrown money at our educational system. They have also lowered the standards for both the teachers and for the tests themselves.
Some of us that have been around here our whole lives remember when we had classrooms of 30+ students, and competent teachers. The graduation rate was 90+%.
More money DOES NOT buy better teachers. The recent scores prove that since the results were better when the teachers got paid less, 30-40 years ago. Unfortunately the teachers all complain about having too large of a class, not enough money, and a million other excuses to hide the fact that they are just incompetent.
I say it is about time to get rid of the non-performing teachers, raise the hiring standards to where they used to be, have fewer teachers, larger classrooms, and use the money saved by getting rid of the dead wood and spread it out to those teachers that are the cream of the crop. Any of us that have ever had employees knows that more money does not make an employee any better. Hire good people and you get good results. Hire good teachers, and Pinellas County can AGAIN, have good results. Right now our high school graduation rate is an embarrassment.

[John Perry]

Hmmm...sounds like Smart Man ain't so smart.

The test is based on the Sunshine State Standards, so we pretty much know what's on it.

We know exactly what the test looks like because we have practice tests created by the state and released tests of items actually used on the test. Oh, and by the way, you can't get an "A" on the FCAT. You get a score that falls between the parameters for a 1, 2, 3, 4, or 5. Not that that (or the test) means anything.

But everyone can't get a 5 regardless. That presupposes that every student is identical, and that "teaching to the test" magically makes every student an equally good test taker.

Jay's point is well taken, Smart Man. Looks like you might need to use a different name next time.

[Gilbert Ford]

Hooray for the Teachers/Educators!

While the euphoria is momentarily gratifying, and a direct reflection of the teachers/educators ability to work under these false, misleading and often horrible working conditions.

Ultimately, it is the job of the lazy a** parents to ensure his or her bad a** child can be taught!

Get this, and I am NOT a teacher/educator. Just someone who admires immensely what they do for us as parent in general and society in specific!

[Smart Man]

Wrong............. Sunshine Standards are item and strands that all Kids should know regardless of which State you go...... These are Basic Skills that all Kids should have to compete. What I am saying is that If we knew exactly what was on the Test ( Questions, Exact Format, etc... ) They would all make 5's. When I said they made A's, I meant School Grade wise ). Bottom line is that Parents need to help out at home as well. Kids come straight from school to after school dance lessons, piano lessons, Sports Practices, etc. and they come home worn out with no time for homework. All extra curricular things are great, but what is more important...... School or Extra's????

[John Perry]

Ron is really full of it. Test scores have risen steadily since 30-40 years ago. The graduation rate was never that high.

Also a pretty bizarre idea that we're "throwing" so much money at education. How is Florida then at the bottom of all indicators of how much we spend on education?

Ron doesn't seem to have noticed also that society has changed drastically in the last 40 years. Thirty kids in a classroom 40 years ago is not the same as 30 kids in a clasroom now. Other changes include laws that mandate expenditures on ESE students, for example, not to mention huge increases in health benefits for school employees. There is a need to buy expensive technology that schools didn't need 40 years ago. Teacher salaries have gone up, but have NOT kept up with other salaries. The idea that money is being "thrown" at education is ignorance at its worst- willful ignorance. More money is spent now because costs have gone up like they have with everything else.

No, more money doesn't make an employee better. It allows you to ATTRACT better employees. Anybody who thinks you can have terrible working conditions and low pay and still attract the "cream of the crop" is either an idiot or living in a alternate universe where everything is the opposite of reality.

I notice that Ron doesn't give his full name. If I was spouting this kind of nonsense, I wouldn't either. But this teacher calls it like it is and isn't afraid to sign his real name. Like most teachers, I'm much better informed, more thoughtful, and braver than our anonymous, arrogant, know-nothing critics, none of whom would step into our shoes. I'd bet a year's salary that Ron wouldn't last a day in my classroom, let alone in a classroom of 30. In some of the more challenging schools, the kids would eat him alive in a matter of minutes.

[Smart Man]

Speaking of throwing Money at Education.... I was just at a Reading Conference, and there was a Reading Coach who had won a regional award........ Her position is getting cut because of the Lack of money...... How sad is that????????????

[milton]

Ron: Were you living at Disneyland?
Well said Gilbert

[John Perry]

Smart Man still isn't.

The Sunshine State Standards are FLORIDA standards, not something "all Kids should know regardless of which State you go."

They are also NOT basic skills. Anyone saying that has never seen the SSS.

They DO know the exact format of the test. They still cannot all make 5s. Every single child is a unique individual. They can't all perform the same on a test, regardless. Also, performance on the FCAT doesn't necessarily correlate with report card grades, and report card grades are not derived from the FCAT, so your comment about "A"s still doesn't make sense.

As far as parental support for their children's education? Yes, of course. There's much room for improvement there.

[John Perry]

Ok, Smart Man, I'll give you credit for a smart statement about the reading coach. The Florida Legislature, with the guidance of Jeb Bush for 8 years, have created a situation where an economic downturn creates a disaster for schools. We didn't have to be cutting right now, but we have given away billions in corporate tax breaks and refused to reform our creaky tax system. Who ultimately pays for these mistakes? The children in Florida's public schools, of course.

[Renee]

It's true more money won't improve students ability to learn, but teachers with advanced degrees don't want to work for substandard wages. Those of us with loans need to keep being able to make payments and since the state isn't willing to help, our wages must improve. I'm also one of the nationally board certified teachers who will be losing bonus money in the year ahead. It's difficult to focus on your students when you're worried about paying your bills!
The result of the lack of cost of living increases and nationally low wages is that some of the best teachers are leaving. So, now what is going to happen to education in Florida? Our kids are going to be left with newbies and "dead wood". That's the result of not paying teachers a living wage!

[Smart Man]

John Perry........ Not sure what district you work for, but you do not know what you are talking about. SSS are basic skills that ALL kids should know. School grades are derived from the FCAT in that you get points for the Lowest 25% making Learning Gains, How many students made 3 and Above, the number of students making gains from one level to the next, etc. Points from these determine your school grade. No we do not know the exact format....We have an idea of what will be multiple choice short answer, etc. All I know is that we did not teach to the test. You either know your basic skills or you don't. You cannot do the math portion if you can't read or add, subtract, multiply or divide ( which are all basic Skills no matter which state you go to or school district ) You cannot do the reading portion if you can't read ( Which is also a Basic Skill ). Please check your facts sir.

[Alex]

If I have to take out a second mortgage, if I have to sell half of my stuff, if I have to work three jobs and eat nothing but sloppy joes... I don't care how bad it gets, I am sending my kids to private school.

[Ron]

To John Perry:
I would guess that you are one of the teachers that falls in the "incompetent" group that I mentioned. I was class of '64 at a local HS, and my son was class of '82 and I have seen a steady decline in the graduation rate of HS. This past year Dixie Hollins HS graduated less than 50%. That is appalling and if you can't see that, then you are part of the problem, not the solution.

[Cheryl]

Congratulations! More of our schools are doing a better job of teaching to the test! If schools were teaching a well rounded curriculum more would be making AYP.

[Sarah]

Pinellas's population is growing older. The young families cannot afford to live here. The student population in Pinellas shrunk last year. Our brightest students will graduate, go to college, and discover a world that appreciates young people. They won't be back. I challenge any of you to find something for succesful 20/30 somethings to do on the weekend. North Pinellas is the worst. Saint Petersburg is okay, but a 45 dollar cab ride home is quite a bit. Can I please go to New York New York or Brick Town where I will be hit on by 60 y/o divorcees? The best families will move on because a better life is not here. The drop outs will stay, and your drop out rate will grow.

work hard in life so you aren't poor when you have kids and then send them to private school. don't cry because you are too lazy to give your children an appropriate education.

[Sim]

Schools are broken and school 'choice' is working....since its goal is to totally destroy the public school system it has pretty much accomplished that. I hope people like the idea of their kids working at McDonalds b/c that is the only thing a public school will get you ready for.

[iknowwhati'mtalkingabout]

Smart Man, please just do us a favor and shut it. You don't know what you are talking about. Thanks and have a nice day.

[Tim]

It irkes me that some of you have the audacity to sit here and disrespect many of the hard working intelligent young people that do populate our schools. There are many very talented young adults that will do a wonderful job of leading this country into the future, but some of you just cant understand that.

[John]

How is it the school's fault? Too many parents are not involved in their child's education. They try to be their kids friend instead of a parent. They have no clue what is going on in school, never check homework, don't discipline, etc. Florida is a transient state filled with people running away from some place else who feel getting an education and their kids learning is a sense of entitlement. Sorry folks but your kids are entiled to attend school and be taught. If you and your child choose not to work and benefit from the opportunities given to you then you are too blame.
I'm sick and tired of the system being politically correct and not putting the blame where it really needs to be. It is too bad that no politician, school board member, principal will ever put the blame where it really truly needs to be.

[Dan]

It's not about students as much it is about parents. We have way to many "parents" that use a school as a free daycare. They don't care about the education. If a parent doesn't engage with their children's education the child won't succeed no matter if they go to a private school, an A school or a D school. Maybe it's an indictment against kids having kids.

[Lisa]

I have to say this first....WAY TO GO CLEARVIEW ELEMENTARY!!!! This is a school that was saved from closing for the 2008-2009 school year, but is slated to close for the 2009-2010 school year. Karen Russell the principal has helped this school grow by leaps and bounds in her short time there. Not only did Clearview go from a "C" performing school to an "A" performing school, but their kids scored some of the highest scores on FCAT in Pinellas County. This is a now highly rated school that is going to shut down because the school board thought we needed to build a newer and bigger elementary school 3 blocks away. (by the way, how can you call it Tyrone Elementary when it is in the Disston Heights neighborhood?) Hopefully the performance at Clearview will change some minds about closing it!

[Jay]

Well, Mr. Ron, I believe you are part of the problem, too. Have you ever mentored or tutored a struggling student? Oh, that's the parents' job. Guess what genius, many parents aren't doing it! Also, you are are part of the crowd that elects the ignorant officials who appoint the clueless bureaucrats, and the spineless judges who have left us with the situation we're in. Hey Ron, in the 60's the graduation rate was about 60%, the overall literacy rate around 70%, but the attendance rate was 80%, meaning almost 20% NEVER went to school. I am a teacher and proud of it. Come into a school and see what our world looks like, and help us instead of tearing us down. Also, the world of basic skills landing one a decent career is LONG GONE. The curriculum has changed and needs to change more. The US higher school attendance rates and tests a higher percentage of students than any major nation.

[Catie]

Ron - Where do you propose to get all these "cream of the crop" teachers? If people are not paid what they are worth they will find a job where they can make enough to get by. In 1999-2000 7.23% of teachers left the field; as of 2006-2007 the number had climbed to 9.55%. http://www.fldoe.org/evaluation/pdf/crit1200.pdf
(PS. Feel free to stop by and spend a day teaching in a real school)

Smart Man - Standards describe what a student needs to know. Basic skills are developed by students to learn the knowledge required by the strand.

Gilbert - Thanks! It is nice to know that we teachers are appreciated.

FCAT - I would love to see some (most) adults complete some of these poorly-worded questions. There are some very confusing questions with double negatives and million-dollar vocabulary that the kids will not learn until high school. Look at your child's FCAT practice book and see if you can figure it out.

Parents - we're not going to accomplish anything by blaming each other; let's work together and see if we can get your children educated.

Alex - I'm really sad that all this negativity has turned you against public schools. All three of my children have gone to public schools quite successfully. One will be starting grad school in January, one is working toward his bachelor's and one is applying for scholarships and colleges as we speak. My kids have gotten a GREAT public school education and I'm really proud of them.

Oh, and for the record - I love teaching and I think I'm pretty good at it but I think after this youngest child graduates I'll find a job that pays better. I need a job where I can make ends meet AND afford to pay off my student loans.

[m.d.]

Wow... ease up on "smart man". I think the point he was trying to make is that we individual teachers don't create the FCAT. We aren't permitted to preview the test when they arrive at our school (each is sealed until students break them open). Yes, we see practice tests and yes we have a good idea of what will be on it from past exams. However, that is not the same as teaching to a test that you created where you might review questions with students that are too similar to exactly how it is wordrd on the test.

[MathTeacher]

Several comments have suggested that parents should do more to help with their children's education. Sadly, some parents simply do not have the academic skill necessary to help their children with academic difficulties. They can still foster an atmosphere encouraging good work, but if the parent had a bad school experience, it is unrealistic to expect that parent to have a good attitude toward school.

[CAT=cat - IAT=rat]

Now, put compare the scores on the international stage. It still lags behind.

[Jay]

Alex,

The second mortgage, the second and third jobs as well as eating nothing but sloppy joes will get your child into a private school - but that guarantees nothing. In fact, since his / her's parents are never around, there's a very good chance that the expensive education is all for naught because there's no one at home to help re-enforce the fundamentals of learning and the positive effects of achievement.

If a child's education is like a recipe for baking cookies, you cannot blame the cook for the batch being bad because you didn't add the butter, and you can't overcome that by throwing more sugar at the problem. You need all the essentials - parents, teachers, environment, curriculum and attitude to successfully educate someone.

All the FCAT does is forces the chef to turn the oven on to at least 200 degrees.

[Minnie]

These are all tactics to keep us devisive.The A+ plan has many pieces to it that keeps parents and teachers at odds.All involved need to take ownership and work cooperatively to develop solutions not bicker.Many students can strive in this system but most will lose focus and be detrimentally affected.Ultimately it will affect us all.
www.minnieforschoolboard.com

[John Perry]

Ron, I notice that you don't answer any of my points. You just try to call names and then report more false information. How can a school have a graduation rate in any one year? That makes no sense. How would that be figured? The students that start there in ninth grade aren't the sames ones in twelfth grade four years later. Some have moved out, some have moved in, and some will take more than four years to graduate. How can you pick a year and say what the graduation rate was that year? And I'M the incompetent one? Right. Whatever.

Oh, by the way, Ron, I'm so incompetent that this past school year, the FCAT Developmental Scale Scores of my students showed that they made significant improvement over their performance in the previous year. In reading, 70% scored higher than the year before, indicating more than a year's growth in the year they were with me. In math, which I tought for the first time in nearly a decade, and only after my teaching partner was moved halfway through the first grading period due to a unit cut, 90% made better than a year's growth in the year they were with me.

[Simon]

Ron, my girlfriend is a teacher. They never throw money at her. She spends her own money for books and supplies, and often quite a bit. The Times even interviewed her for doing that. Therefore, I trust it's safe to assume that you don't accept money for doing your job...whatever that is.

[Mencken Jr]

MathTeacher:

Sorry, that's an excuse. Parents don't need to be math geniuses to police their kids and make sure their homework gets done. It's the teacher's job to make sure the kids know what's expected of them; outside of school, it's the parents' job to enforce the rules of the house.

Lots of times the kids are the weak link, not letting parents know what homework is due and what lessons are being taught when. I know that when my kids were in middle and high school I would have *loved* to get the academic game plan for the year, on a month-by-month basis, so I would know when they had homework and when they didn't.

[me]

Mencken Jr.
I do have my game plan for the month on my personal web site and to entice parents/students to use it, I built in an extra credit if they printed it out and showed it to me.

Alas, only 2 out of 130 students brought me the extra credit, and they already were high performing.

So the tools are there, but the effort isn't, typical lack of interest. In Pasco we even have parent access to grades through eSembler and only 70% of parents even use it.
A tool that should be used by 100% of parents.

Any complainers on this blog who are not teachers, please apply and come and become a teacher. There is still a shortage and we need your expertise to do this job better.

Oh.....silence at the other end.....Just as I thought, no one is interested in putting their mouths to work....all they want to do is spit out venomous opinions for a job they can't and won't do.

Those touting private school as an alternative....do you use an uncertified a/c, plumber,doctor, lawyer for work needed?

Well that's what you get in a private school...uncertified individuals who either could not pass the test or have shady backgrounds and could not sit for the test.

[Ron]

John Perry,
I guess you are having trouble with the facts I stated so you decide to pick apart my choice of words. OK, maybe this is easier for you to understand....for the 2007-2008 school session, or whatever else you want to call it, Dixie Hollins graduation rate was 45.3%, according to the SP Times. For the previous session, or whatever you want to call it, it was 51%. I see a certain amount of decline, don't you? Do you feel that less than 50% is acceptable?

As far as my "cream of the crop" teachers. I thought I made it very clear in my first post, but apparently some of the "teachers" are having trouble understanding what I was saying. I never said ANYTHING about hiring NEW teachers, I said to spread the money saved among the teachers that ARE the "cream of the crop." I realize that there are excellent teachers, and I also realize that there are incompetent teachers, that should be sent on their way. So if you feel that our BEST teachers should not be rewarded, as I suggested, than that is up to you.

For those of you that suggest that I should spend a day in the classroom......that is a cop out. You are basically saying that you have given up, you cannot do the job that you were hired to do, and you want me to come and see for myself. Why do you think I have to see for myself? IF you CANNOT do the job you were hired to do, for whatever reason, maybe you should all quit, or do something to demand changes. Complaining to me about your lack of success isn't going to do any good. IF you are accepting a paycheck, and you can't, won't, or aren't qualified, to do the job that you were hired for is not right. If you think it is better to take the citizens money, and complain, rather than act, than I guess that the teacher's union is only there in name only.

I agree that parents SHOULD get more involved, but at some point in time you are going to have to accept the reality of the situation today. Sure, it would be great if all parents taught their children basic manners, and a million other things, but you all know that is not going to happen. Blaming the parents is easy, and again a cop out. You have to play the cards that you are dealt, OR FOLD. If you can't deal with the kids in today's environment, than you should stop wasting your time, and the taxpayers money, and quit. Maybe, just maybe, if enough teachers took a stand, things might change for the better.

Jay,
You listed some graduation rate figures for the 60's. I challenge you to give the link that you used for your reference. Rather than to make up figures that will suit your argument, stick with facts, not fiction. Don't give generalized percentages, give specific figures at a specific school, like I did for Dixie Hollins. Dixie Hollins had a graduation class in 1964, what was their graduation rate, as it compares to the Class of 2008?

And one more time, for those that challenge those of us to become teacher's ourselves.....what a weak argument, or response. I doubt if a single teacher out there could do my job, but that is not the point. You teachers are accepting a paycheck to do your job, period. Nobody said it was going to be easy. If you read any publication in the last 20 years you would have known that you were entering a difficult profession. In spite of the difficulties, you still decided to become a teacher, at the offered salary. For some of you, I am eternally grateful, and I have the utmost respect for your dedication and expertise. For those of you that became a teacher and did not know what you were getting into.....I guess you should have done your homework, right? For those of you that knew the challenges that faced you, and took them on anyway, and succeeded, thank you. For those of you that became a teacher only to get a paycheck, and to complain about everything, please leave and go elseware. You should not be wasting the taxpayers money.

[Alex]

Catie and Jay, that's wonderful and all, but the biggest problem I have with public schools is that they need to dumb down their curriculum for all the delinquents there. I agree that good parenting is necessary, but if your child has worked hard to get into an Honors class and the teacher is telling the class to just do homework (true story), then no amount of good parenting will bring back that lost opportunity. Private schools keep out the riff raff, so the curriculum can be as challenging and rewarding as possible without all the discipline problems that public schools face.

[patcon]

Interesting data for the charter school advocates:
Based on this article which reports data on all schools and a Miami Herald report on charter schools in that area which gives data on charter schools in the state, a comparison of public and charter schools can be made.
I will subtract the charter school numbers reported by the Miami Herald from the total schools reported by the SPT to get non-charter schools.
At the top end of the scale:
charter schools: total = 216, A = 112 or 51.9%
non-charter schools: total = 2673, A = 1471 or 55.0%
charter: B = 44 or 20.4%
non-charter: B = 499 or 18.7%
charter: combined A and B = 156 or 72.2%
non-charter: combined A and B = 1970 or 73.7%
At the bottom end of the scale:
(only combined D and F is reported by the SPT)
charter: D = 8 or 3.7%, F = 11 or 5.1%, combined D and F = 19 or 8.8%
non-charter: combinde D and F = 180 or 6.7%

So charters do worse at both ends - lower percentage of A/B schools and higher percentage of D/F schools.

[John Perry]

Ron, not only do I do my job, I do it well. I notice you didn't comment on my test scores. You on the other hand have NO idea what you are talking about, and that includes your bogus graduation rates. Funny how people outside education know so much more than the people actually doing the job. Of course I notice that, unlike me, you never put your full name. That way, you can hide behind your anonymity to bloviate about topics you know NOTHING about.

If we have so many imcompetent teacher, Mr. Blowhard, then why did 95 percent of Hillsborough's schools get a "C" or above? Two-thirds got an "A." By what criteria are you judging schools? Fake graduation rates?

[Gilbert Ford]

Ron, your 7/9/08, 9:31A, comment I read with great caution and deliberate understanding. You came across as being extremly passioned about what you had to say.
I just wish, that you and I, along with a few other passioned parents can come together and brainstorm this problem.
You see, my sister-in-law is a school teacher in Pinellas County, and I want to share this with everyone who reads this blog. It tears me to pieces, everytime I see her, literally in tears trying to help, underachieveing kids!
Yes, she could have chosen to be a Pharmacist or a Pediatrician, but her passion ever since she was 13, was to be a teacher. I have never heard her complain about the job, just the kids (that solicited my previous comment 7/8/08) so help me God, about how bad it was or is. She loves it, even though I personally feel she and other teacher/educators put up with a helluva lot more than I ever would ( I am a Fmr. Drill Sgt).
My point being, lets lock hands together on this very sensitive, personal and tragic problem (illiteracy) while the passion is still raging before it is too late! I graduated from Boca Ciega Senior High, Class of 1978. Two days after graduating I enetered the miltary. My personal push, from some of my teacher/educators resulted in me attaining a Masters, (2) Bachelors and (3) Associate Degrees, respectively. The point being, I hope ALL children get the chance to NOT left Behind!

[reading specialist]

Literacy and language go hand in hand. Illiteracy breeds illiteracy. Language acquisition basically starts when a child is born and illiterate parents speaking to their children (or in some cases not speaking to them) is the basis for the struggles the poor kids face from day one. Once they are past a certain age, they will likely never progress fast enough to catch up with their peers. I'm going on a tangent but this is mostly for you, Gilbert. You can have a zillion caring, passionate individuals. The fact of the matter is these poor kids do not have the experiences that promote maximum literacy, and even the finest teachers can only fill part of that void.

[Andy]

I once taught in the public school system. I met mostly qualified and highly qualified teachers. I met very few teachers that were collecting a paycheck. I work more hours now, but I don't come home feeling burnt out. I miss the rewards of teaching. When a student knows that you care about that student's success, then they work with you. I don't know where to begin to fix the problem with our education system. Assigning blame isn't going to fix anything. Lending a helping hand may. Go to PTA meetings.Find out what a teacher needs for the classroom next September. Coach a team. Do something more than complain. This is about the students and our shared future.

[Gene]

Blaming the teachers for a failing education system is like blaming soldiers for a failing war.

[Sandra]

Me...way to stereotype private school teachers. My child is in private school and all of his teachers are certified teachers, they are required to be. They don't make nearly the same amount of money I do (yes, I am a public school teacher) and yet they are there, day after day. Why? Because they love teaching. They also take workshops to enhance their skills. Stop and think before you open your mouth.

[Ron]

John Perry,
I could care less about your individual achievements. Try to focus on the big picture. Here is the link to my "bogus" graduation rates. Take a look at what they are and you will see that the 45.3% graduation rate that I quoted is exactly right. Look at some of the other HS rates, and try to comprehend the big picture.
http://www.tampabay.com/specials/2008/graphics/pin-08gradrates/

If you think these are acceptable, than you do not need to be in the teaching profession.
I guess I also can't help but question your grasp of common sense. You seem to be hung up on me using my full name. I assume that you fail to realize what many experts, including the St. Pete Times, say that you use caution when posting anything online. For all I know, John Perry is not your real name. Frankly I don't care but if it is, I hope you teach your students better than to post their full names all over the internet. Just common sense John, nothing else.

[me]

Sandra,
I beg to differ. My kids went to private schools also and I too am a public school teacher. Two of my sons' teachers majored in theology and had no certification when I asked after two years of enrollment. The director said that for his school's needs the teachers' credentials were adequate,
(B.A. in theology).

I then took my money and my kids and went to the local public school.

Public charter schools' teachers are certified and yes the Catholic Diocese requires their teachers be certified.

The rest.... a crap shoot.

That's great you have certified teachers, but not ALL private schools are obligated to have them, as is the case of ALL public schools. So please "stop and think before you open your mouth" as you put it.....please key in on the word "ALL".

Ron,
Our grad rates will not change unless we start tracking students by abilities, which in today's "feel good" mentality is frowned upon.

There are some who will never get interested in literature but would make very successful electricians.

The tracking of students by ability/interests at all levels should start well before high school so time isn't wasted on meeting some standard (FCAT) that some may never meet by virtue of ability or lack of interest.

The new direction of having middle schoolers choose "majors" is one step in that direction, although not quite what is needed. The high schools' focus on academies is another possible solution, but the results won't be seen for many years.

The goal should be to produce thinking contributing citizens no matter what the students choose to do.

But tracking in a way that is done in other countiries will never happen here because it is perceived as limiting the student's "potential".

If students drop out early because they have no interest, then their potential will never be realized any way. So we need to rethink some older methods: tracking/votech ed/college prep etc. being one of them.

I agree that our graduation rates are abysmal for a country such as ours, but criticism needs to be tempered with solutions.

Teachers may be critical of the FCAT but deep down they know it caused us to start looking at uniform methods/standards and looking at performance where none was present before.(some of us remember pre FCAT and SSS days).

If you have solutions, then come into the educational field and participate in the changes needed, don't be a sideline judge.

We need everyone's participation, not criticism.

[Sandra]

Me...you are right. Not all private schools are created equal (just like not all public schools are). I decided to spend more money and I put my child in a high quality private school. Please, don't allow your negative experience with private schools lead you to believe they are ALL like that--as evidenced by your sweeping statement, "Well that's what you get in a private school...uncertified individuals who either could not pass the test or have shady backgrounds and could not sit for the test". And, since we are being honest, I have taught with plenty of public school teachers that have no business being in the classroom. And yes, they have their certification. Bad teachers can be found anywhere.

[publicschoolteacher]

Me, I think many teachers are ok with the FCAT itself and the monitoring that comes with it. I also like the Lexile test (reading comprehension test) that my students take twice a year (once at the beginning, once at the end, showing one year's growth- what a concept!). I also agree that high school students should have to pass a 10th grade test before they are promoted out of the 12 grade.

What many of us do not like is the high stakes, end-all-be-all attitude that has been attached to the FCAT. It alone should not be the determining factor hat says whether a student is capable or not, whether a teacher is capable or not, and whether a school/district is doing its job. And as for graduating, seniors should be able to use passing scores on an alternate test (SAT, ACT) to satisfy that requirement. Not a college in this country looks at FCAT scores!

So, the test itself is not the problem. The fact that it is used as the lone unit of measure is!

[Me]

Me,
Telling me to come in off of the sidelines and help, instead of being a judge, is a nice way of saying that those that ARE paid to solve the problems aren't doing their jobs.
I am very successful in my chosen field and I will not ask you, or anyone else, to help me do the job that earns a living for my family.
Because of my own successes, I also pay a considerable amount of taxes to people that are elected, and hired, to take care of our children's educational problems.
IF they can't do their jobs, which the declining graduation rates seem to indicate, then SOME of them need to leave. As I said, there are a lot of fine teachers, as evidenced by their success, but there are still a lot of teachers that do not belong in the classroom. As I have said all along, get rid of the deadwood, raise the bar for new hires, and go forward.
Don't use the old argument that this area DOES NOT pay enough to attract high quality teachers. That is total BS, since there are already some fine teachers that are doing their job in a professional and successful way. It just seems to be difficult for many teachers to accept the fact that some of their brethren are not competent. Maybe it's the Teacher's Union mentality to protect their own. I don't know why any organization would want to keep non-performing teachers, at the expense of our children's education.

[me]

Publicschoolteacher,
Yes the extreme weight given the FCAT is a problem. However, seniors can, and do, take the alternative ACT (17/19) and SAT (470/470) as alternatives to the FCAT currently, but only after they have failed the FCAT 3 times.

I believe that giving the FCAT multiple times to the same student is a waste of time and money, and they should be able to use alternative scores after the 1st FCAT failed attempt at their own expense....but then what would the FCAT test makers do when fewer students take the test....make less money, it's the business end that we often forget.

The test makers are profit making.

Ron,
I understand your frustration with the graduation rates, however, teachers do not make or sell widgets as some of the companies that you may be in contact with.

The product(student) we try to improve comes to us sometimes defective after 5 years of parental damage, and sometimes it has no damage at all and works quite well after we have worked with it for another 13 years.

Yes, in teaching, as in any occupation, there are good employees and bad, as you of course should know first hand, as do I, having come from the private sector many years ago to teach.

However, to raise the bar in order to get better quality teachers, as you say, you unfortunately negate the enticement of $$$ as the bottom line for entry level teachers who have nothing to lose by leaving after 3-5 years in the field.

Yes, they can make a decent starting salary of 33K, but after 10 years the scale tips at a WHOPPING 38K,(500/ year for 10 years, or $40-50/mo. This is not the same rate of increase as other professions with similar backgrounds (even with the instructional days factored in).

I am not implying that throwing more money into all of education would necessarily be the answer, but giving more $$$ incentives to high performing college grads to go into teaching as opposed to engineering (45-50K entry) might just be a starting point.

But then retention is the other complicated issue, that good veteran teachers grapple with each day....."do I stay and do what I love, or do I look for a job that I can love and feed my family too". Each year we lose good teachers because they can't afford to teach any more.

Because you are a taxpayer, you should give your 2 cents worth solution, even if "they" don't want to hear it.

Don't assume that the people hired in your local district offices, city offices, state offices are doing the jobs they were hired to do. They sometimes have rose colored glasses on and can't see the whole picture from where they sit.

So I disagree with you, you still wield more power by using your voice than sitting back and letting them do as they want, year in year out.

The unions too, have their own "survival agenda" here in Florida, just like any sub contractor would in the private sector....so protecting the incompetent is their way to protect themselves....isn't that what any union does..protect the incompetent worker, UAW(GM/Ford)?

Personally, I don't belong to a union, but I am quite vocal and do let the admin. know my opinion on some matters.
The union, like insurance companies, use scare tactics to entice new hires to join...."you might get sued by a parent"..blah blah blah....so what.

Sue away. Doesn't mean you'll collect,
and if you're doing the job you were hired to do, there should be no fear of such events.

[ayeayeaye]

Let's have a Ron widget on our desktop labeled "Teacher Hater". It can have a voice when you click on it that says "You suck. I'm cool!"

[Alex]

This discussion about the quality of teachers in public vs private schools is pointless. What's missing from all the debate is the element of CHOICE. That's the beauty of private schools: you have the ability to choose private education over public, and within private education, you can choose among multiple schools. There is no luxury like this in public schools. If you happen to live in a poorly performing district, you're only "choice" is to move.

Secondly, I think the fact that public school teachers are paid more than their private school counter-parts speaks volumes as to the career fulfillment experienced by both. Public school teachers, on the whole, seem less happy with their careers. This is quite understandable. Their students are less engaging and less disciplined. Parents are less involved, and they are constrained by bureaucracy. All of this puts a premium on their salary. Private school teachers on the other hand hardly ever have these kinds of problems, so they are paid less, but are still, on the whole, happier.

I don't think anyone would argue that the quality of teachers is vastly different between public vs private. What tips the scales is the quality of the overall system in which the teachers (and everybody else) must operate. You can have the best teacher in the world teaching your kid's class, but if there are a ton of distractions in the classroom, or if the teacher must teach to the lowest common denominator, then your kid won't learn anything from the class.

[publicschoolteacher]

Excellent post, Alex. I think you've managed to summarize everyone's opinions without personally challenging or attacking anyone! You really captured the point!

[John Perry]

Ron,

Those "graduation rates" are absolutely meaningless. How were they arrived at? What do they mean?

YOU.

DON'T.

KNOW.

Yet you bandy them about as if they mean something. Remember what Samuel Clemens said- "There are lies, damned lies, and statistics."

This is a perfect example. If you can explain the methodology used to arrive at those numbers, I'll eat my hat.

Oh, and by the way, I'm not a student. I can and will post my full name because unlike you, I'm not an anonymous know-nothing troll insulting hardworking teachers.

[me]

John, no need to insult....just understand. Ron is not insulting hard working, EFFECTIVE teachers. He is merely making a point that we as educators need to single out and start weeding out our own rather than victimize another set of students with incompetence. We need to speak up when we see people not doing the work they get paid for. Remember , you too are a taxpayer and see first hand if your money is being well spent.

But the school systems are no better at having a crystal ball as employers are in the private sector when it comes to employee effectiveness. The only difference, is the ease and quickness with which an employee can be removed.

If you are in a local system you know hard it is to get rid of someone, especially a union member, who has "slipped" a bit.

So I do agree with Ron, that we need to start "self policing" even administrastors and their buddies who are not doing their jobs because it's everyone's tax money being affected, even yours.

[John Perry]

Me,

We'll have to agree to disagree about Ron.

As far as your comment about "especially a union member," you need to be aware that this is not the case. All the union does is make sure that due process is followed. The union doesn't (and in fact can't) cannot keep an ineffective or incompetent teacher on the job if due process is followed. Also, they don't want to. Those teachers (who are a small minority, which is why Ron is so wrong), make us all look bad, and unions recognize that.

Also, unions are us. A union is nothing more than its members acting collectively for the common good, and the common good for teachers is for the ineffective and incompetent to find work elsewhere.

[The Cost of Dealing With Incompetent Teachers]

Does anyone know how much it costs to fire an incompetent teacher?

Also, what drives that cost?

And, finally, who pays the bill - the individual school site, the District, the Union- ????

Ron,

First, the state of Florida has not thrown money at public education. In fact, the schools will ultimately be asked by Tallahassee to operate with less money than they recieved in 2005-2006 after all the cuts and holdbacks even though inflation for fixed costs such as diesel and utilities will have doubled in that same time.

Second, the graduation rates in Florida are computed using a contrived system by Jeb and Patricia that were designed to make us look the worst in the country. No other state computes its rates the way we do and most other states have no where near the level of mobility of its students that we do.

I would suggest that if Florida's policy makers would make it a goal to fund the operations of our schools at a level that is equal to the 25th (median) state in the country that school choice would die from a lack of need instead of because the "system" created was deliberately unconstitutional.

Finally, I was a product of the public schools and our public university system. I know that both did a great job for me, but I am concerned as a citizen about the future of our entire education system in this State. You should be as well, but your goal seems to be to pay less than the lowest state in the country while complaining that the outputs are less than desirable. I would not ask the US military to operate in the bottom 10% of military budgets in the world, but I don't think that anyone should expect the best performance from our schools with the current level of support.

[John Perry]

Dear Cost,

It doesn't cost anything to fire an incompetent teacher. It just takes a principal to follow the correct procedure.

[patcon]

Cost, what it costs is a diligent administration, doing their job of evaluating teachers.

In the first 90 days a teacher can be let go without any cause or paperwork headaches. In the first three years a teacher can be not rehired without any cause or paperwork headaches. You would think that would give administrators plenty of time to identify those who don't have the "right stuff". Unfortunately, many administrators don't want to admit that they made a poor choice in hiring that person initially.

Normally, the fourth contract puts a teacher in "continuing contract" or "professional services contract" status. (A fourth annual contract can be issued if there are still some minor performance concerns.) A "continuing contract" is what most people think of as "tenure". Such a teacher has, presumably, demonstrated appropriate skills and is given a bit more job security. Dismissing such a teacher is still quite possible, but there are administrative procedures that must be followed. Documented egregious behavior can, of course, still result in rapid dismissal. "Poor performance" issues generally require that the administration attempt to remediate the problem through training and enhanced supervision before termination.