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« A weekend interview with Nikolai Vitti, deputy chancellor of school improvement for the Florida Department of Education | Main | Florida education news: International Baccalaureate, Response to Intervention, school segregation and more »

October 24, 2009

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I hate politicians

Bring it On- nice resume. That and 50 cents will get you a bag of potato chips. Well- a small bag. All of that "stuff" still doesn't qualify you as an expert in the area you're commenting on. That's Ok. You don't need to be one. Just don't try to pass yourself off as one. You make some valid points but you need to acknowlege that having an insiders "insight" offers others some advantages that your laundry list doesn't.

Bring It On

to Jaymz | October 25, 2009 at 04:26 PM


where do you all get this stuff?

" If the Matrix is completed to reflect a high score, then you are opening a bigger can of worms because then you have to complete a mountain of paperwork to have the student's label changed."

A Matrix is not an evaluation tool.

An IEP is designed to meet the unigue needs of the student, and the Matrix reflects these level of services needed within each of the Domains.

Is the next thing you guys are going to say is that all SLD students all get the same Matrix and all Autistic all Autistic students get the same Matrix?

publicschoolteacher

Let me state, for the record, that I am well aware that NOT all behavior problems are generated by ESE students. However, teachers and administrators are able to handle non-ESE disruptions with more latitude and without fear of lawsuits. That being said, my concern, as I stated before is, "How much disruption do we tolerate from a student (with or without an IEP) before we start to consider the rights of the students in the classroom who are trying their best?"

It would be interesting to see which law would trump which in the event of a lawsuit...

Dick Weed

As long as students are classified/promoted/taught according to age rather than achievement, the whole society will suffer. Low/underachieving children will be robbed of their desire to improve and self esteem by being placed with age peers who are gifted/near gifted. Likewise achieving students will not attain their potential as RARELY does a class move faster than the slowest kid.

Jaymz

Bring it on,
I agree with Cecelie. Unless you work in the school system it is easy for you to believe this. Unless a student has a label of EBD and is in a self contained setting, the behavior interventions, FBA, and constant monitoring for a student who may be labeled SLD in a co-teach setting will not generate more money. If the Matrix is completed to reflect a high score, then you are opening a bigger can of worms because then you have to complete a mountain of paperwork to have the student's label changed. In most cases, the parents will not agree to this.

Julia

Well put uppity woman. I am not going to lie, a huge part of me wants to roll my eyes at the thought of a parent university. People really need to take more personal responsibility. However, why not give this a try? It can't hurt right? I am sure some parents might get something out of it. It's hard to be cynical I know.

Just for the record too, IEP kids are not always a problem. My son has always been one of the best behaved kids in class due to his quiet nature. Another boy in his class has an IEP too and is a doll. The worst behaved kids in the class do not have an IEP lol.

Bring it does have some points though. I have always volunteered at my kids school. My older child's teacher is so awful this year, that I refuse to volunteer for her anymore. She would literally just demand things for the classroom like "buy me XXX" and XXX would cost $25. I would bring it in and not even a thank you. After 2X of this happening, no more. If you volunteer for her, she barks orders at you. Again, never a thank you. She got a little steamed when I told her I couldn't volunteer the following week due to my younger child's dr appt. So, yes teachers do need to be mindful on how they come across too. It takes a village folks! We all need to respect each other - very true.

Bring It On

Uppity woman, my son had teachers like you, and my son had teachers like a couple of the others.

You can imagine how well I would support you and seperate you from all of the special ed issues that go on, as opposed to the nightmare I would be to someone who sees me as a non teacher parent.

I am outta here for a few hours.

Bring It On

Uppity Woman:

"respect" said it well: "Parent University, if it's to reiterate what a dirt bag you think the parent is, will not be successful.

If you offer families what they need, they'll give it a shot."

My point is that a lot of school personnel have to get over their arrogance with ignorance and not talk down to parents, even the "bad" ones.

I took issue with the initial premise. One would think that with all of the accolades that I accomplished as a student, I would be an ambassador for the school system. My son had a lot of great teachers and support people that went above and beyond their duties. However, I also saw the other side of the special education world, which is downright dirty and disrespectful.

What did you think about the Matrix of service link?

uppity woman

Bring It On
There is no Federal Law to provide for access to education - there is no Federal Department of Education that enact Federal Laws and standards with regard to education. It is left to each state to determine their own constitutional provisions for education.

There are federal Programs such as NCLB, but this is a voluntary program that states can opt into. The Florida Constitution, as one other blogger pointed out, does clearly state that it is the state's obligation to provide the opportunity for student to access free and adequate education.
Back to the article and issue at hand - I for one, am encouraged that school districts are realizing that many parents today really need help in being a better parent. There is no blame being laid here, just the recognition of and response to a societal need.
I am not sure why this apparent "good thing" has generated such dissenting opinions over the needs of special education students...
Interesting data flow on the ol' blog-o-sphere here today.

Bring It On

to Cecille:

resource:

http://www.fldoe.org/ese/pdf/matrixnu.pdf

You state: "Yes they do have FBA and interventions in place. This however does NOT generate more funding through a Matrix score."

Page 24 of the Matrix of service has the Domain "Social/Emotional Behavior".

Level's 4 and 5 speak to the requirement and need of intensity of "personal assistance, monitoring, and/or intervention.

These domain levels are scored as a Domain rating, level 4 and 5 generating a higher score than levels 1, 2 an 3.

These Domain ratings are used to calculate the "Cost Factor Scale", found on page 26. As you should easily see, the higher the total number of Domain ratings, the higher the Cost Factor. The Cost Factor numbers are matched to a number. Here is an example, but the numbers change:

"Estimated worth of IEP
251 = $4,000.00 - $5,000.00
252 = $6,000.00 - $7,000.00
253 = $9,000.00 - $10,000.00
254 = $12,000.00 - $15,000.00
255 = $17,000.00 - $20,000.00 "


I fail to understand how you can assert that a student with a highly structured behavior management plan infused throughout the school day (Level 4), and should be reflected on the matrix of service, does not gererate more funding than a student that does not reach that level.

Help me out on this one, please.

Bring It On

To all:

I am one parent bashing the system, and look how it is personalized by some teachers.

Let's open our minds and put on our thinking caps.

This blog post started out with this premise: "But while people everywhere complain about "bad" parents, some school districts are doing something about it".

Apparently it is reasonable for people everywhere to complain about "bad" parents and these "bad" parents provide cover for all that is wrong with the public education system.

To steal a quip, keep bashing parents and see how well they cooperate with the system.

Bring It On

To mom5:

The discussion was specific to the issue of "do regular ed students have the same right to a free and appropriate public education as do students under IDEA."

For purposes of this discussion, could the "low socio child spoken about in the link, who fail the FCAT and because they have no label, only receive a certificate of completion from high school, or drop out all together..... " sue the system?

What procedural safeguards does a regular ed student have?

mom5

to Bring it On:

I read your link and you are fortunate enough to live in FL where McKay scholarships allow you to send your child to a private school of your choice and they may or may not participate in FCAT testing which is a plus for your child on an IEPlan since those students get waivers for failing the test in public school and yet can still get a diploma.

But for those parents whose children, like the low socio child spoken about in the link, who fail the FCAT and because they have no label, only receive a certificate of completion from high school, or drop out all together..... is that an appropriate education?

If they system continues to allow these disabled students who are behavior problems, to enter the mainstream classroom, there will eventually be another case where a wealthy parent of a Basic Ed child rises up with another law suit and says ENOUGH.

Or does FL go towards rejecting federal funding all together in the hopes of avoiding future law suits?

Let's see what happens.....and then see if there will even be any teachers in the system left to implement any federal changes that are coming......continue to beat them up and only those without any alternative career path will enter the field, the good ones will have left for greener pastures.

Bring It On

This reminds me of Colonel Jessep in the movie "A Few Good Men."

Lets take these two statements:

"....and admin. has to cover their proverbial a*** so that you don't sue them.......Posted by: teachermom | October 25, 2009 at 08:43 AM

and

"I hate to say it but it will take a parent winning a lawsuit before a change will happen.

Posted by: Cecelie | October 25, 2009 at 12:15 PM "

So, teachers need a Colonel Jessep:

"You don't want the truth because deep down in places that you don't talk about at parties, you want me on that wall, you need me on that wall."

Bring It On

publicschoolteacher:

read this and then we can explore some more:

http://www.cascadepolicy.org/pdf/edref/09-22%20website.pdf

Cecelie

I find it so interesting how someone who does not do my job day in and day out have all the answers. I have 27 children on my caseload and nearly half of them are behavior problems. Yes they do have FBA and interventions in place. This however does NOT generate more funding through a Matrix score. All I do is paperwork to document the interventions and accommodations of these students. I ask, when multiple interventions are tried and are unsuccessful, why are these children still allowed to be in a co-teach setting. Why? because there is nowhere else to put them. Unless you are playing finger puppets and drooling on yourself, you will not be placed into a self contained setting.
As far as focusing in good behaviors. I do that and it doesn't take someone on a blog to educate me on that. I did go to college and earn a degree in EDUCATION. It is hard to focus on good behaviors when the 65% of your class is constantly interrupting lessons, communicate in various F-word dialogues, and decide to talk and text on their cell phones.
For my students who do what is expected, I provide rewards such as special lunch periods outside, positive phone calls home, etc. The point is, when the parents do not value education, the child will not either. In a child's eye, their parents are gods. They will follow their lead and tend to ignore anything the school tries.
It is unfair to every student and teacher who wants to succeed to be pulled down by those who don't.

John, I hear the same thing about IEPs. However, I have been told that by 8th grade, all students will eventually be placed on consult only. This is just another way to reduce positions. What I think will be interesting is when the basic ed teacher is responsible for documenting accommodations for all of these kids and possibly writing part of their IEPs. I the way ESE kids are serviced is changed soon. The direction it is going is right down the drain. I hate to say it but it will take a parent winning a lawsuit before a change will happen.

publicschoolteacher

SYSTEM OF EDUCATION.--In accordance with s. 1, Art. IX of the State Constitution, all K-12 public school students are entitled to a uniform, safe, secure, efficient, and high quality system of education, one that allows students the opportunity to obtain a high quality education.

So when a handful of children, regardless of their individual labels and disabilities, start interfering with this, when do we get to say, "Enough!"?

Bring It On

to publicschoolteacher:

I appreciate your comments.

I have two points to make.

One, I am all for blaming the system, similar to one part of what terminator states at 11:28, and not blame students, parents and teachers, when students with a disability are not placed in the appropriate least restrictive environment, with approriate supports and related services.

To speak to that, IDEA is quite clear in the language that states that when a student's behavior, under IDEA, interferes with their (the student), or their peers, then the District must address this behavior in a positive manner - (FBA's and BIP's).

My next point is a challenge for you and your professional colleagues. Show me where, in state statutes or federal law, where a typical student has "rights to a free and appropriate public education."

Too much time disciplining students

"I am a teacher who is spending too much instructional time to correct bad behaviors."

Then start focusing on good behaviors.

Respect

It all starts with respect.

School employees have to respect the human beings coming in their doors no matter what they're bringing.

School employees are supposed to be trained to deal with what comes to the door. District administrators are supposed to supply the resources necessary to deal with it.

School employees need to learn to detach in a healthy manner. I don't mean get frustrated and give up on or banish a kid, but to do your job in a professional manner to the best of your ability and then let go.

It is very frustrating when a parent isn't perfect, but who is? We're human. Each of us has good points.

Teachers, specifically, need to change their paradigm. It used to be that teachers were supposed to be disciplinarians. Teachers were supposed to look for faults, make corrections and the consequences of mistakes were enormous. (dunce caps, rulers to the knuckles, beatings, etc.) Well, it's just not that way anymore. Those methods do not effectively educate people. They just make them want to give up and drop out.

If the consequences of trying mean punishment, then why try?

Same applies to parents. If they put forth effort and it's quashed, pretty soon they don't show up anymore. By high school, a parent has come in contact with at least 40 or 50 school employees. How they are treated by each of those people shapes their willingness to continue trying.

Parent University, if it's to reiterate what a dirt bag you think the parent is, will not be successful.

If you offer families what they need, they'll give it a shot.

Parent University is going to have to start with something seemingly unattached to school, homework, student discipline. Try something fun, beneficial and unassuming: a cooking class, how to buy a home, planting a garden or improving a playground.

School carnivals and holiday programs really did serve a purpose. We just forgot.

On some level, we're all equals. Principals, teachers, parents-all parents and students. We all have something to offer. We just need to take some chances and bring it to the table.

Teach yourself how to look for the good. Then nurture it.

terminator

IDEA and NCLB have to be two of the most heinous laws ever unleashed on school districts.
Both should be systematically dismantled before they destroy the public education system completely.
Parents have way too many rights under IDEA. Many simply game the system to get "stupid checks" which is what it's mainly about.
You see a disproportionate share of minorities being classified as ESE based on this factor alone.
Remove all the special rights/privilages and financial incentives then see how many are classified as LD?
Goerge Washington, Thomas Jefferson and Abraham Lincoln all must be turning in their graves at what an abortion the American public school system has become!
Enough is enough. Teachers: time to say "hell no we won't go". Tell the feds and state and districts to shove it where the sun don't shine!

publicschoolteacher

Bring it On,
In regards to John's comment about moving children from self-contained classes into co-teach in order to cut teaching positions, at my school, these changes were made during the summer without notifying the parents. Illegal? YES!

When parents asked why there children were no longer in self-contained, the answer was given that we no longer had self-contained classrooms, and since the children would be in an all co-teach setting in high school, this really is the "best" way to prepare them for that scenario. No parent has complained yet.

Obviously, they are not as well versed in the laws that govern this as you are. Teachers have complained, however, that some of these kids are obviously in the wrong setting, and administration has thrown that very quote you used (at least in my case) right back in my face. "...to ensure that all children with disabilities have available to them a free appropriate public education ..."

I have to agree with teachermom on the position that at some the rights of the rest of the students have to be factored in here somewhere. Who is defending their right to a free and appropriate education? Oh, and I am also a mother of a child with an IEP.

Julia

Bring It On:

I do empathize for your situation. I have a son on an IEP for high functioning ASD. I can understand your frustration. I have heard countless horror stories from people having their IEP watered down or not receiving the services they need. I am not quite sure how that relates to the above article though.

It's a really tough balance for the school system. The budget stinks right now and IEP kids do use a lot of $. It's not right to take it away from the kids who need it the most. I am on the other side of the coin with my older child who is gifted. I also see the frustration those parents have when they see their child bored and being ignored by the teacher because they are too busy coping w/ all the other issues going on in a class. I wish I had perfect answers but I sure don't. The only real conclusion I have come to is that one size fits all education does not work.

Bring It On

edit "coordinator"

Bring It On

John 9:37, please tell us how you are instructed to sell this reduction of services to the parents in the next required IEP revision that must be held, with the IEP team, which includes the parent, when there is a change in the individualized (not individual) education plan.

Perhaps teachermom could give us a quick inservice on the legal requirements for prior written notice, you know, where the District is to provide a required written notice to parents when school proposes to initiate or change, or refuses to initiate or change, the identification, evaluation, or educational placement of the child.

John, please tell us how the change in the least restrictive environment will be planned prior to the upcoming IEP, assuming that there will be one, and without the input of the parent.

Even non teacher parents have to trust that the system is ethical.

Bring It On

edit "even if I am ...."

Bring It On

To teachermom:

I find it interesting that you choose to talk down to me as a "non teacher parent." Perhaps you should get with uppity woman 9:01 am.

I assume that since your child has a 504 plan instead of an IEP, your child is not in need of specialized instruction. This decision, I am sure, was based on a variety of sources of information, including a reliable, comprehensive evaluation.

I would also assume that you know who your 504 coordiator is.

I would also assume, since you are a teacher, that you recognize the difference in the legal leverage between a student with a 504 plan and a student with an IEP.

I would also assume, since you are a teacher, that you recognize that Section 504 is a civil rights law to protect people from discrimination because of disabilities.

I would also assume, since you are a teacher, that you recognize that IEP's are one part of the legal requirements under the Individuals with Disabilities Education Act (IDEA) and that IDEA confers a set of procedural safeguards for the student and the parent, unlike a 504 plan.

While 504 plans use the word "reasonable", IEP's use the words "to ensure that all children with disabilities have available to them a free appropriate public education that emphasizes special education and related services designed to meet their unique needs and prepare them for further education, employment and independent living."

IEP's also convey the following leverage to students and parents: "to ensure that the rights of children with disabilities and parents of such children are protected."

If I were trying to advocate for my child with a disability, I would much rather have an IEP than a 504, even I am simply a non-teacher parent.

John

and the schools, at least here in Pasco, are putting more and more children who need self contained classrooms into regular rooms. Why, because they can cut teaching positions by doing it that way. Furthermore, that child who would be receiving co-teach services 5x weekly is going to soon only be receiving them 2x weekly. As that is what the district supervisors are telling us to put on new IEP's

uppity woman

Bring it On
You appear to be the type of parent I WISH my students had. You seem accomplished, involved and passionate about education.
However, what many of my students go home to are
parents who are barely literate (I have received parent emails that I can not read due to such low levels of writing ability),
parents who spend their free-time with boyfriends or girlfriends and send their children to a friends house,
parents who blame me for their child earning and F due to missing assignments,
parents who are not concerned when they are informed that their child has been late to or absent from my class everyday this week,
parents who are simply unreachable-do not return phone calls-and do not show up for conferences.
These issues are what this article is about - How to help parents be better informed so that their students can succeed.
Actually it is quite sad that the school system needs to educate the student of today and RE-educate the student of yesterday.
If more parents were like you and could help their student see the value of an education and how it has enabled you to succeed, especially in business and the community, then perhaps students of today would be able to achieve more with the opportunities the school system provides.

teachermom

to Bring it ON:

What is on paper never comes close to what is actually happening in the classroom (I know as my child has a 504 not an IEP) but as a non teacher parent you would not know that...it is called REASONABLE accomodations......the time energy to modify the behavior at the expense of the time needed to instruct 25 other children is time taken away from the majority again.........

you see only what you want to see which is your personal reality....
classroom teacher has to see the entire classroom full of students 8 of 25 who also have IEP's that need to be met........and admin. has to cover their proverbial a*** so that you don't sue them.......so they tell you what you want to hear not what is actually happening in the classroom.....hence your distrust.....
But remember that
your child is not the only island in the sea...........
homeschooling is the best choice if you have heard so many lies.........

Only there, will you not hear anyone's lies--- or truths but your own.........

Bring It On

To Cecille:

In specific response to your statement:
"I am a teacher who is spending too much instructional time to correct bad behaviors."

I would expect, upon examination of your IEP's, that we would find professionally administered functional behavioral assessments (FBA's) along with the resulting positive behavioral support plans to address these "bad behaviors."

I would expect, upon examination of your IEP's matrix of services, we would see that there are behavioral supports itemized as a specific related service to those students who have "bad behaviors."

Bring It On

To teacher mom and Cecille:

Neither of you could bring yourself to recognize that I specifically said I was taught not to trust by the system because of the countless numbers of lies.

Neither of you could bring yourself to see that I was bringing a balance to the constant complaining about bad parents.

I get it. I don't think you do.

When parents make a legitimate complaint about an individual teacher or the system, the complaint is labed as an isolated incident and not an accurate representation of the teacher or the system.

I read the above article. Did you?

I read what I wrote. Did you?

Where did I blame teachers?

I was offering a balance to the followiing:

"Picture yourself in any one these hypothetical scenarios: you're a parent who never graduated high school; you're a parent whose only interactions with schools have been negative ones; you're a parent who has zero recollection of how to divide fractions; you're a parent who has no clue as to what the important dates are on the college-application calendar."

It constantly amazes me how analogous arguments just float off in to the air.

Cecelie

Well said Teachermom!
I too am a teacher and mom of a child with disabilities and I can back up everything you say. It surprises me that a parent who appears so educated would place the disability before the child...oh I mean "kid".
Anyway, I am waiting for the day when some of the accountability for education is placed on the parent. Too many parents look at school as a babysitting service and not a tool for education. I will follow Bring It On's lead:

I am a teacher who is a mother

I am a teacher who is one pay check away from poverty but still manages to be involved in my children's education.

I am a teacher who graduated college with honors even after having to quit high school with a GED

I am a teacher who believes parents need to reinforce their child's education at home.

I am a teacher, not a miracle worker!

I am a teacher who is spending too much instructional time to correct bad behaviors.

I am a teacher who is tired of getting parent phone calls blaming me for their child's failing grades despite their chronic absences and failure to work when they bother to show up.

I am a teacher who is tired supplying my students with their pencils, paper, and even clean t-shirts.

I am a teacher who is tired of having to create lower expectations for parents than I have for their children.

As mentioned before, if you have a problem with public education, home school.

For those parents who are involved, despite your SES or education level, thank you. Like I tell my students, EFFORT makes a difference.

For those parents who just want to blame their poor parenting on someone else, maybe you should use that trumpet to get rid of your hot air.

teachermom

to Bring it on:
Come to this side since you are so very well rounded.....I too have been in corp. sector and educated and thought that I could definitely contribute what I thought was a better effort in educating than the teachers my own children had..... and now am a teacher....

never did I think that what I saw from the outside as a parent would differ so greatly from where I stand now on the inside............

walk a day in a teacher's shoes and then come talk....walk the walk or just don't talk at all and just homeschool your own child...... become a parent and a teacher and then come see what teachers see from all the disabled children who are wonderful and what they see from others who disrupt the education of the majority around them.............

like the child whose neglectful parent is taking over 4 weeks to get new meds for the child and the child can't concentrate long enough to string simple words and interferes with the legal right of the majority to a public education........

whose rights come first? the majority who have great active parents and are there to learn, or the minority who are the loudest and whose kids will inevitably be supported by the majority in life?

question to ponder....

Bring It On

I am a parent that graduated from East Bay High School, Hillsborough.

I am a parent who was a seventh in my class.

I am a parent who was in NHS.

I am a parent who was I'st chair trumpet player.

I am a parent who was I'st chair, undefeated, chess team.

I am a parent who was a member of the student council.

I am a parent who was the Drum Major.

I am a parent who lettered 3 years in baseball.

I am a parent who was a senior notable, voted "Most Likely To Succeed."

I am a parent who graduated from college.

I am a parent who is a recognized business owner of 33 plus years in my community.

I am a parent who is the president of a corporation.

I am a parent who was taught not to trust the local school system because of the countless numbers of lies they told me over a span of 20 years.

I am the parent of a disabled kid.

What else do you have?

Susie

Amen

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