A weekend interview with ...

... Scott Howat, lobbyist for Orange County Schools and the president of the Florida Education Legislative Liaisons.  Howat also is a member of the Seminole Community College board of trustees.  Howat spoke with reporter Jeff Solochek about public education legislative priorities for the spring session.

Have you had a chance to go over the legislative priorities and talk to lawmakers to see where things are headed?

We met as a group ... and talked about the budget, talked about the issues. And obviously we're hearing as bad as we could have imagined, it's going to be worse. ... The total impact to education from that standpoint is undetermined because we don't know what percentage of the total cut if there's a reduction that education will hit. We know we make up about a third of the budget, but we don't know if we'll get a proportional third or if they'll work to hold us somewhat harmless or at least target certain programs to make strategic targeted cuts.

I know the House set up an education appropriations committee, which they didn't have last year. Is that possibly a good thing?

Yeah, I noticed it in the makeup that they split out the appropriations and the policy. They also split it out into K-12, higher ed and workforce. That can be good because you're focusing on those budgets. It can also be an issue, because you have leadership that are not having to work together on one committee but are working on their own committees and then have to bring it back to the body, so to speak, for approval. So it can become somewhat territorial, vs. looking at the entire system as they did last year prior to breaking it out.

How do you approach the leadership, then, knowing you have on one hand a group looking at policy where they might approve some idea and then on the other side you have appropriations where they might say there's no money for that idea?

Complying with class size

As the deadline for meeting the 2002 class-size reduction amendment nears, Pinellas leaders are taking steps to get schools ready. That means $144-million in classroom additions and portables, in order to have enough space for fewer students per class.

The biggest project: 33 new classrooms for Palm Harbor University High. The most new portables go to Blanton Elementary, which will get 10.

To see the latest Times story on this issue, click here. For more Gradebook coverage on the class-size amendment, click here.

(Image of Blanton Elementary, 2005, from Florida Aerial Services)

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Class-size on thin ice?

As we frequently reported during the legislative session, many education groups and a growing number of lawmakers want to see the expensive and inflexible class-size amendment scaled back.

The best they could get in the spring was a one-year implementation delay. The Senate just didn't want to go along with a more permanent House plan, and amendment supporters cried foul any attempt to "undermine" the will of the people.

With the economy in shambles, though, the Senate is looking more likely to bend than ever before, the Orlando Sentinel reports today. "During this time of historic revenue shortfall, we should look for every opportunity to provide school districts with flexibility in class size," Senate K-12 education chairman Don Gaetz, told the paper.

Class size changes on the way

Before the House went into meltdown mode over an FCAT bill this morning, members unanimously approved a bill that would modify the way the state implements the 2002 class-size amendment.

Crafted by Rep. David Simmons, who has tried for years to scale back the voter mandate's financial effect, the measure also has won support from several education organizations including the Florida Education Association, the Florida School Boards Association and the state PTA.

If ultimately adopted by the Senate and signed by the governor, the bill would retain the class-size counts as required by the amendment. But it would offer flexibility to schools, so they would not have to realign classes every time a newly enrolled student pushes a classroom over the cap (18 in kindergarten through grade 3, 22 in grades 4-8, and 25 in high schools).

Tax reform commission steers clear of class-size changes

If changes are in store for Florida's class-size amendment, they're not coming from the Florida Taxation and Budget Reform Commission. The panel today decided not to move ahead with a proposal that would have asked voters to scale back the class-size reduction rules they approved six years ago.

The issue was up for reconsideration after the commission last week defeated the idea but left room for another vote if a compromise could have been reached in the meantime. That didn't happen.

That leaves it to the Legislature to find ways to deal with the costs and other concerns that the amendment has sparked among school district leaders around the state. So far, the House and Senate have different ideas in play, but key lawmakers have said they'll find a compromise before the end of session. The most likely scenario, insiders say, is a two-year delay in implementing classroom counts, saving about $600-million each year.

In other TBRC action, the commission agreed to ask voters to reconsider the "no-aid" amendment that has been used to justify banning state money from going to religious schools (vouchers, okay, we said it), our sister blog the Buzz reports.

Honor the "will of the people"

While still serving in the Florida Legislature, U.S. Rep. Kendrick Meek of Miami spent a lot of political capital pushing the state's 2002 class size reduction amendment to narrow passage. Then he headed off to D.C. and didn't have much to say as state lawmakers tried unsuccessfully to tinker with the mandate.

Now that it looks as if the Taxation and Budget Reform Commission might put the issue back before voters, Meek is back trying to convince that panel to leave the amendment alone. The commission, which meets every 20 years and can set ballot questions without the Legislature or petitions, defeated a proposal to ask voters to scale back the amendment earlier this week, but left the item open for a possible revote next week.

He sent a letter to commission chairman Alan Bense commending this  week's vote and suggesting it should stand:

The decision for children to learn in smaller classrooms was already made by Florida's voters in 2002 when they approved the Class Size Amendment. I hope you share my belief that the will of the people should be honored.

To read his full letter, click here.

Alternative class-size changes move ahead

Even the Democrats on the House Schools and Learning Council rose in support of a legislative "fix" to the 2002 class-size amendment today.

The change (PCB SLC 08-08) would maintain the limits on the numbers of students in a classroom, but it would deal with what Rep. Marty Kiar, D-Davie, called the "unintended consequences" of the voter mandate. Schools would be able to exceed the caps if additional students arrive at a school after the classes are set in the fall.

Marshall Ogletree, speaking for the Florida Education Association, deemed the bill a "great team effort" to maintain the class-size amendment but make it more feasible. "Nobody in education wants to disrupt students' lives," he said, noting the possible alternative that a school would have to break up classes once the dreaded "19th student" enrolls. (The amendment caps K-3 classes at 18 students, 4-8 classes at 22 and high school classes at 25.)

Bill sponsor David Simmons, R-Maitland, has tried for several years to come up with a way to blunt the financial impact of the amendment. "There is no reason for us to force ourselves into an absurd result that is detrimental to the students of this state," he said.

The council of five Democrats and 11 Republicans agreed unanimously. It's not clear if this bill will gain traction in the Senate, which has other ideas in mind. The Florida Taxation and Budget Reform Commission, meanwhile, will reconsider whether to ask voters to scale back the class-size amendment next week.

Class-size proposal gets one more chance

A proposal to scale back the 2002 class-size amendment to school-wide averages, rather than classroom counts, almost died Monday at the Florida Taxation and Budget Reform meeting.

Almost.

Facing certain defeat with a 15-10 vote against putting the amendment to the amendment before voters in November, the concept got new life when former state Senate president Jim Scott changed his position at the last minute. Smith's move was tactical, the AP reports, in hopes of finding a compromise that all might accept.

The decision got pushed off to March 26.

Pickens urges class size amendment fix

Speaking before the Taxation and Budget Reform Commission, Palatka Rep. Joe Pickens urged the members to put before voters a constitutional amendment that would address what critics say are unreasonable, unflexible standards for the state's previously approved class size amendment.

"I'm not here saying we can't afford it, but I think we shouldn't afford. it," said the Republican, pointman on education issues in his chamber. "I think we could spend the money giving teachers higher salaries."

He asked the commission to "ask the voters...for something much more practical, and much more reasonable."

Meanwhile, House Rep. David Simmons' committee just put together proposed legislation to make the class size calculations more flexible.

Moore predicts defeat for voucher, class size proposals

Pinellas Classroom Teachers Association executive director Jade Moore (left) is one of the few Democrats sitting on the Florida Taxation and Budget Reform Commission. He acknowledges he doesn't hold the majority view on many of the issues coming before the group. But after 30 or so years in the world of Florida education and government, he certainly has a well-honed nose for politics.

And his sense is that many of the education-related measures moving through the commission will not make it to the voters, despite making their way out of committee.

A proposal to allow public money to pay for private schooling "is limping through the subcommittees ... as a courtesy to the sponsor," Moore said. But "it's not going to go anywhere," he added, noting that the commission wants to put no more than eight items on the ballot and that it has bigger fish to fry (read: tax reform) than this idea.

He suggested a proposal to scale back the class-size amendment has "more legs than the voucher thing," but predicted getting 17 needed votes from the commission could be tough. "I think the (no) votes will materialize in the full commission," Moore said. "If not, it's going to go to the voters (where) it's going to go down."

Polls have shown growing support for reduced class sizes, suggesting a lack of interest in changing the rules.

The commission is scheduled to take up the class size proposal on March 17. The commission also scheduled to discuss proposals that would change the way the state funds education, depending more on sales taxes and less on property taxes. You can see the agenda here.

Moving right along

While lawmakers kick around their proposals to make the class-size amendment less onerous - the House wants to create flexibility through an "emergency" circumstances provision, while the Senate is looking at delaying implementation a year - the Taxation and Budget Reform Commission is pressing ahead with the fix that many in the Legislature prefer but can't accomplish, a referendum asking voters to abandon classroom counts for school-wide averages instead.

The commission's proposal won approval at its second committee this week, and with a wider margin than it received at its first stop. Just one member of the Planning and Budgetary Processes Committee, Pinellas teachers union leader Jade Moore (right), opposed the idea, which seven other members supported. The Governmental Services Committee gave the concept a narrower 5-3 blessing.

That means the proposed referendum already has 12 supporters of the 17 it needs to make its way to the November ballot. The full commission could take up the measure as early as March 17.

A second proposal, one that has drawn attention as the voucher amendment, also won support this week from the Planning and Budgetary Processes Committee and is on its way to the full panel, too. This measure would amend the constitution to allow Floridians to receive publicly-funded services including schooling from private providers. Moore and former House member Carlos Lacasa of Miami provided the no votes.

The commission, which meets every 20 years, must complete its work by May 4. Stay tuned.

Promoting the ABCs

No, that's not a plug for the alphabet.

State Sen. Lee Constantine, the Altamonte Springs Republican who once headed the Senate Education Committee, is pushing to see more school districts take advantage of his A Business-Community school program, which took effect with the class-size reduction implementation law.

The program allows Florida businesses to provide K-3 classroom space for the children of parents who work for the company, if the numbers warrant a teacher. The closest public school would monitor the program and hire the teacher.

Constantine likes the possible benefits - limited need for day care and eased burden on existing schools among them - and plans to encourage more companies and districts (which are required to have someone on staff available to coordinate the initiative) to take advantage.

"They really haven't pushed the opportunity, and I think it's such a shame," Constantine told the Gradebook.  "I'm trying to find people to take a risk on what I think is a sure thing."

Class-size changes move ahead

A committee of the Florida Taxation and Budget Reform Commission today narrowly approved a measure that would ask voters to amend the class-size amendment, the Tallahassee Democrat reports.

The proposal would stop the class-size limits at a school average - where they are currently - rather than moving them to classroom counts, as the amendment ultimately requires by 2010-11. A recent St. Petersburg Times poll indicates that Florida voters might not look too kindly on that change, which groups including the Florida Education Association have opposed.

The concept next moves to the full TBRC, where it must receive at least 17 votes of the 25-member board to go before voters. The group, which meets once every 20 years, can put measures on the ballot without legislative approval or voter petitions. It must make its ballot recommendations by May.

More on the class size poll

So the class-size amendment is overwhelmingly popular? Knew that, huh? Bet you didn't know that non-whites were more likely to oppose the amendment (35 percent) than whites (18 percent). Or that Republicans showed more willingness to vote for changes to the rules (41 percent) than Democrats (27 percent) or independents (26 percent).

Hey, that's what happens with news stories. The totals get big headlines, and the details, well ... they get relegated to detail-oriented blogs like this one. So if today's Times story on the class-size amendment left you wanting more info, you can click here to download the full poll results behind the article. (Click on the chart to see it full size.)

Class-size alternative: Take a break

As lawmakers once again seek to blunt the impact of the 2002 class-size amendment, yet another idea has emerged in the Florida Senate - a simple one-year hiatus.

When implementing the amendment, lawmakers required school districts to meet the voter-approved classroom counts by 2008-09, Senate Education chairman Don Gaetz (left) observes. The actual amendment, however, doesn't mandate compliance until the 2010-11 school year.

So why not take a year off and save the estimated $600-million in added recurring costs during this dismal budget year, Gaetz wonders. He considers the concept a cleaner, simpler approach than the "emergency" idea working its way through the House, although he didn't rule out the Senate's consideration of that plan, too.

Gaetz, who opposed the amendment from the start as Okaloosa superintendent, says he most prefers the Florida Taxation and Budget Reform Commission proposal of having voters scale back the rule to school averages: "The best long-term solution to what I think will be a very chaotic final step in the implementation of the amendment is to make a constitutional change."

But if the Senate, which has proven the "burr under the saddle of trying to get flexibility into class size," can move ahead on any relief proposal, he suggests, perhaps it's worth considering. And if the House and Senate come up with wildly different solutions to the same problem, Gaetz adds, "That's why we have conference committees."

New models, no funding for Pasco and Hernando

As lawmakers talked about how they might revamp Florida's class-size law, they didn't give too much attention to a research paper that suggests three possible ways to change the way the state funds construction to meet class-size demands. (See the Power Point presentation on the paper here.)

The paper, generated by the Office of Program Policy Analysis and Government Accountability, aims to find ways to cut back the state's bill from an estimated $314-million in the 2008-09 fiscal year. And under all three models, both Pasco and Hernando counties would lose millions.

Under the existing Department of Education funding system, Pasco would get $56.5-million for class-size related construction, while Hernando would receive $2.9-million. Using any of the three OPPAGA methods, the districts would get nothing.

DOE officials already have pointed out problems with the OPPAGA paper. Lawmakers didn't seem interested in pursuing it, at least for now. Still, district leaders, who already are wary of what the dismal budget year will bring, are paying attention to whatever happens next. The last thing they want is someone finding justification to cut back their resources for meeting the class-size law.

"Since Pasco is one of the few districts in the state of Florida that is still experiencing growth in student population, the funds we receive for class size reduction are vital to our ability to meet the reduction mandate and provide safe learning environments for all students," Pasco superintendent Heather Fiorentino told the Gradebook. "We will continue to work with our legislative delegation to ensure they understand the importance of these funds."

"The stakeholders have agreed"

For years, Florida lawmakers have looked for a way to blunt the impact of the voter-approved 2002 class-size reduction amendment. Education leaders, also worried about how much meeting the requirements might cost, have pushed for changes too.

Working together, they think they've found an answer - one that wouldn't need voter approval.

During a meeting of the House Committee on 21st Century Competitiveness, lawmakers and representatives of various education organizations hashed out a proposal that they suggest would meet the spirit and the word of the amendment without forcing schools to take drastic action whenever the 19th - or 23rd or 26th - student appears, pushing a classroom over the limit.

The plan would have school districts conduct an annual count every fall to determine enrollment. Then schools would have to "true" their classrooms to meet the amendment rules. From that point on, the schools could allow individual classrooms to exceed the class-size limit by up to five students, so long as the school's class-size average does not exceed the law's mandate of 18 in grades K-3, 22 in grades 4-8 or 25 in grades 9-12.

"Do we have to count every day?" said committee chairman state Rep. David Simmons of Altamonte Springs (left), calling such a concept illogical and absurd. "This is just trying to solve everything so we have a rational solution to a very real problem."

Simmons, who has been pressing for class-size amendment changes since 2003, told the Gradebook he plans to have a bill "the stakeholders have agreed on" ready to view within three weeks. He suggested Senate Education chairman Don Gaetz, who has testified about the need to scale back the amendment before the Florida Taxation and Budget Reform Commission, is the likely standard bearer for the idea in the Senate.

To see the documents the House committee reviewed, including possible bill language, click here.

Goal remains to hold education harmless

Florida's school district officials remain nervous that the passage of Amendment 1 will cost education millions. Legislative leaders want to reassure them that a promise is a promise, even if it's tough to carry out.

"Our goal is to not harm education. When we get back to Tallahassee, we're going to have to reprioritize the budget," state Rep. Will Weatherford (left), the Wesley Chapel Republican who's in line to become speaker in a few years, told the Gradebook. "I think everything is on the table. At least, in my opinion it should be."

Weatherford, who sits on the Policy and Budget Council, said that he sees the new tax law as a way to lift some of the burden of education funding off local property taxes and put it back in the state's hands.

He added that a proposal to scale back the class-size amendment to school averages, now in the hands of the Florida Taxation and Budget Reform Commission, only could help the effort by freeing up resources that otherwise will go to school construction.

"I would love to see an amendment to do that," Weatherford said. "That would be a real victory for the state of Florida."

Senate Majority Whip Paula Dockery (right), R-Lakeland, told the Gradebook it's going to be tough to continue funding education at the same level, especially since local taxpayers increasingly have shouldered a bigger share over the past decade. Yet Dockery, who sits on the Senate Education Appropriations Committee, said she and others remain committed to that goal.

"The state is going to need to make up the difference," she said.

Asked for specifics on how to get there, Dockery pointed to $491-million in the budget slated to help CSX improve its track system. It's a for-profit company that made a profit, she said, and it can use its own money for that purpose. "There's one."

Class-size "emergency"

Florida lawmakers gave their first public hint of how they might scale back the 2002 class size amendment without going back to the voters during a House committee meeting this morning. The vehicle would be legislation creating a class size "exigent flexibility exception."

The exception would allow districts that have unexpected enrollment growth after the school year begins to have individual classrooms exceed the mandated student counts by up to five students, for one year only. It would deem three actions as "not practical or educationally unsound and disruptive to students" - breaking up a class mid-year, establishing a new class at the school and transferring students to another school in the district.

The idea was part of a larger discussion on how the state will comply with the law, which sets class size limits of 18 for kindergarten through third grade, 22 for fourth through eighth grade and 25 for high school grades. Classroom counts are scheduled to take effect in the fall.

To see the proposed exception amendment, click here. To see the full packet that was discussed, click here (and be patient, it's long and takes a while to load). To see an Associated Press report on the session, click here.

A weekend interview with ...

... Ken Otero, chief of staff to Hillsborough superintendent MaryEllen Elia. Otero spoke with reporter Jeff Solochek about the school district's plans to deal with the next phase of the class-size amendment, when classroom counts take effect.

What is your concern with class size?

Well, the same concern that probably everybody in the state has. First of all, obviously next year as part of the implementation bill we have to be at ... 25, 22 and 18 at the different grade levels. That's going to, aside from getting the teachers which, to be frank with you, at this point probably not the hardest part.

The hardest part is going to be the room utilization, because we have schools right now that have no grounds to put portables, a limited number of classrooms and if we, I'll give you an example. Let's say every room in the school is used and we have three first-grade classes and they're running at 18 each, which is where they're supposed to be, and a kid comes in. ... Even if you say we're going to give that school another unit and we're going to divide those two of 18 and one of 19 ... into four, which would bring us under the class cap. That would be great, but where do we put that teacher? That's a problem.

The other side of that is, do we say, "We're sorry but the school is closed. There's no room at this school. You have to go to another school where there's room."

Is that your answer?

No it's not my answer. That's why we're going to have the committee.

The committee will do what?

The committee will review all of the possible scenarios, all of those questions that are out there, and will make recommendations as to how to handle them in terms of, do you put the "No Room" sign up? Do you do more team teaching, or triads, or whatever else you can legally do? Do you redo boundaries? Whatever options we have. Do you do double sessions? Those are all things that need to be looked at. This is something that affects everybody. It affects the entire community. So we look at everything, and everybody has to have a piece of this. That's why we're putting the committee together.

How do you choose who will be on the committee?

Certain people we will choose, and certain groups will be chosen by the people who they represent. Like obviously you will have some parents, and they will be through PTA. We might have some parents who have used the choice option through the district, and we could get them through the choice office. We'll look at county and city government and ask them to send someone. There's various categories. ... Obviously the teacher union.

I could imagine this could be more controversial than, for instance, putting the calendar together. How do you keep things from getting emotional?

One more run at class size

The day is quickly approaching when schools will have to count the number of students in each classroom to make sure they're meeting the 2002 class-size reduction constitutional amendment. Many school leaders aren't too excited. They worry about what to do when students arrive or leave mid-year, messing up the numbers. They want some flexibility.

The Florida House hears them.

"I'm not a fan of the rigid class size average," House K-12 Education Committee vice chairman John Legg (left) told Pasco administrators on Tuesday. "The reality of it is, the time is ticking on us. ... You're going to see a proposal out of the House."

He didn't offer details.

Rep. Will Weatherford, the Wesley Chapel Republican who's in line to become House speaker in 2011, agreed that change must come.

"Hopefully this is a lesson to us all that just because it sounds good on election day doesn't mean it is good. We got duped," he told the group. "If I thought we could get something on the ballot to freeze class size, I'd start a petition right here."

He worried, though, that whatever the House does, the Senate might not go along, as usual. Even if it does, Weatherford said, getting 60 percent of Florida voters to agree could be even more difficult.

Still, it looks as if the House is going to try again.

Class-size flexibility

House Schools and Learning chairman Joe Pickens has set his no-cut preference list - things like online education and college financial aid are among the options. The goal, he tells the Gradebook, is to make mindful cuts as the Legislature trims $1-billion from the budget.

House leaders "are definitely looking for some thoughtful perspective, and not just some across-the-board cut," Pickens says. After all, an across-the-board cut would hurt an agency that gets 75 percent of its funding from the state much more than one that gets just a third of its cash from the state, he notes.

One idea Pickens has taken a liking to comes from Pasco County school leaders, who have asked for the ability to use their class-size reduction money without so many strings attached - so long as the law's essential mandates are met.

He said the council is "definitely considering" a one-year delay in moving to classroom counts. It also is looking at canceling the penalty for noncompliance with the class-size amendment for the current year. (Districts that don't meet the mark each year automatically have some of their operating money put into capital projects.)

No one is talking about changing the 2010-11 deadline for all core classes meeting the teacher-student ratio set forth in the amendment. These ideas face a long road, as they're less popular in the Senate than in the House.

As lawmakers move ahead, Pickens says, the general public should keep some perspective on what's happening. Sure, districts don't like to get less money than they were allocated in the spring. No one likes to trim spending. But per-student funding still will be up 4-1/2 percent from last year, regardless.

"In a lot of other years, it is more than it would have been in the first place," Pickens observed.

'It's not over'

Just when you thought the class-size amendment was safe from challenge, along comes the Florida Taxation and Budget Reform Commission. Amending the amendment is topping the agenda when the group's Governmental Affairs Committee meets Friday.

The topic is listed innocuously enough as "presentations on k-12 education funding." But Wayne Blanton, the Florida School Boards Association executive director, says the discussion is all about scaling back the 2002 amendment to either district- or school-level averages with a cap, rather than moving to strict classroom counts. That's the same idea that was floated two sessions ago, just without the controversial "65 percent solution" that got lumped in with it at the time.

"We're going to be asking for consideration of the possibility of putting the class-size amendment back on the ballot," said Blanton, who will be joined by Florida Association of District School Superintendents executive director Bill Montford, former Hillsborough schools chief of staff Jim Hamilton, Palm Beach schools lobbyist Vern Crawford and Washington County superintendent Calvin Stevenson in his presentation.

They say their idea would provide more flexibility in organizing classrooms. They also want to ensure that any money saved if such a change occurs would remain with the public education system.

The commission, which can put items to voters without legislative approval, requested Friday's presentation and asked Blanton to pull it together. "That indicates to me there is some interest," Blanton said. "It's not over. I can assure you that."

Today's news

NEW TUITION PLAN: Lawmakers agree to let Florida's three national research universities - UF, USF and FSU - increase their rates by as much as 40 percent, marking a major change in the way they have looked at tuition and the universities' financial needs. Gov. Charlie Crist has vowed to veto anything that makes college cost more.

THE SURVEY SAYS ... Pinellas County school employees have a much higher opinion of the superintendent and School Board. They also say the climate has improved at many schools where morale had been low.

TEACHERS PICKET: Hillsborough high school teachers continue to protest the administration's plan to make them teach six periods a day instead of five. The School Board and superintendent show no sign of budging. This issue looms over pending contract negotiations. (link to come)

BOARD CLOSES CHARTER: The Language Academy in New Port Richey had staved off attempts to shutter its doors for months, promising to fix its financial problems. School Board members finally pulled the plug Tuesday.

KIDS HELPING KIDS: Peer mediation started as a trial in a handful of middle schools in 1991. Now it's in just about every school in Pinellas County.

FAMU AUDIT OUT: The university's explanations about missing money and questionable transactions failed to convince the state auditor, the Tallahassee Democrat reports.

SCHOOLS BUDGET: Lawmakers appear set to let school districts take advantage of continued growth in local property values, even as they criticize other local governments for wanting to do the same thing, the Palm Beach Post reports.

CLASS SIZE SCANDAL (UPDATE): We've been keeping tabs on the story of the Santa Ana, Calif., school district that lied about class size figures to claim state funding. Well, the state has finally caught up with the district, and it looks like the district will lose $2-million, the LA Times reports.

TEACH HOW, THEN WHY: A Chicago teacher offers his views in the Chicago Tribune on why so many kids can't do advanced math.