And Largo Smote Its City Manager...

If Steve Stanton had announced last week that he was "merely" gay, instead of a man intending to become a woman named Susan, would he still have been fired as city manager last night by the Largo City Commission?

I am guessing not, but then, I didn't think Largo was going to fire him so quickly even for this. The guy was there for 14 years and was rock-solid in his job, with excellent evaluations.

The lesson is just how strongly mainstream society still feels about the transsexual issue -- strongly enough, in Stanton's case, to override every other factor.

Other points:

* It seems odd to accuse the guy of being "deceitful," as several speakers did, since he stood up in front of the whole world to announce his intentions.

* One quote from one preacher...

If Jesus was here tonight, I can guarantee you he'd want him terminated. Make no mistake about it.

.. does not make him a spokesman for the entire Christian religion. I could produce a whole page of quotes from the New Testament suggesting just the opposite, but decided it wouldn't settle anything.

* Stanton is in a tough line of work where getting fired is an occupational hazard for ANY reason -- or no reason at all. Lots of city managers get fired, and a lot get fired for reasons a lot more petty. In the end, the job consists of exactly one criterion: Keeping a majority of your bosses satisfied.

More later.

Comments

[Howard]

Here's the question: what difference does it really make? WHY the uproar? Why do people really care? He hasn't threatened to blow something or somebody up. He hasn't even declared an illegal war or sent thousands of kids to their deaths simply to salve his ego. He said he's going to change his sex. Why is that different from saying he's going to change his wife? He's done nothing at all other than announce his decision. WHY is that so important to so many of you?

Will someone please simply explain why what Stanton has decided to do is "wrong?" Is it immoral according to some moral code? Does it violate some rule of God? It's not against the law of man, I don't think. Is it simply because you don't like him? A woman at the meeting said, "'they' have rights but so do we?" What IS Stanton's right? What right does the commission or populace claim to tell him he is wrong?

I don't think any of the commission has thought seriously about any aspect of this thing. They've reacted as the witch hunters in Salem - identified someone who doesn't conform to the popular prejudice and condemned him. That's not Christian like or, even, human.

[Howard Troxler]

I do not necessarily disagree, but just wanted to point out that there is a different 'Howard' talking there. Maybe we could have an all-Howard discussion board?

As far as rules of God, I don't think they covered this one in the original instruction manual... correct me if I am wrong.

[Ron]

He showed incredibly poor judgement in announcing this to the press before he discussed it with his 13 year-old son. This shows he is an individual who puts his own ego and gratification before anyone or anything. (It is only a matter of time before the book & movie deals are announced.) This lack of judgement is reason enough to remove him. It is also patently absurd for him to expect this to have no impact on the city of Largo. The HR department now has to provide sensitivity training. I gaurantee that the day of this announcement was the most unproductive day in Largo City government history, as everyone would have been discussing this, rather than doing their work. Managers with poor judgement need to be removed.

[CJ]

He didn't announce it to the press, a close "friend" leaked it.

[HB]

Howard - sorry about that - I'll be HB from here on.

Ron's post begs the question, "why is it poor judgment?" Because he should have anticipated the bigotry? I agree an announcement like this should not have been sprung as a surprise on wife and child. But that's between him and them - no different than if they'd been surprised by an announcement he'd decided to quit. Or an announcement he's gay.

However - who else thinks the announcement "shows he is an individual who puts his own ego and gratification before anyone or anything?" Can I not similarly reason that his announcement shows incredible courage and forthrightness? Does it not show he is principled and not willing to live a lie simply because he's surrounded by bigots and hypocrites?

And - I wouldn't worry too much about the day being the "most unproductive" in Largo's history. I'm trying to recall a "productive" day in that swarm of malcontents.

[Mary]

He did not "announce it" cavalierly to the press, someone leaked the information and he was ambushed. I'm tired of people selectively reading the stories. Even the Times articles admit over and over that he had not planned this to go public for some months yet, so he could tell his son and do this with his son out of the way of all the hateful people for the summer.

Ego and self-gratification? That proves you are ignorant on what transsexuality is and how it impacts the people affected by it.

[Ron]

I could care less if he wants to live like a woman, but he hid this from his family for years. That shows this is about his own ego and arrogance. He did what was best for himself, not what was best for his family. If he can't even put his family first, how can you expect him to put his job first. As far as being outed by the newspaper, I can't imagine a reporter would not heve agreed to hold the story for 24 hours to give him at least a little time to prep his family. It is all about him, no one else.

[marty]

As far as I can tell, this guy was a damn good city manager who was nieve in thinking people would accept and respect him for the job he did. It is very sad that ignorance and predjudice forced this person out of office. I'm sure this won't be the last you will here from him.

[MLV]

Nadine Smith got it right last night - despite the 'learned' pastor's claim - NOWHERE in the Bible does it even hint at the fact that Jesus would have condemned him.

Frankly, I feel sorry for the congregants of Lighthouse Baptist (what a misnomer) - they obviously have an extremely illiterate pastor. He obviously can't read and/or interpret text that has been transliterated so that such dolts could understand the gist of Jesus' mission - which wasn't to condemn people, by the way, but rather to support them.

The hate & fright that was so apparent last night on TV is frightening. Obiously these people are afraid that they themselves might actually be what they find to hate. It's well known that what we dislike in someone else is a trait that we have ourselves. Too bad. Some of the ugly faces that I saw would make great faces if they were clothed as their opposite sex....

[HB]

Well, Ron, I'm sure Stanton is not happy that you would substitute your feelings about how he should handle his life for his - in an area that has absolutely nothing to do with you and cannot in any way affect you. And, "if he can't put his family first ..." is kind of trite, don't you think? Sort of a catchall blurb for bigots? It's not like he just started working there last week. I've not heard anyone yet say he didn't devote himself to his job for all the years he was there. The ONLY thing that changed was this announcement. Which, of course, rallied all the holier than thou people.

Please tell me - precisely what it is that he did that is "wrong." If you could "care less if he wants to live like a woman," what IS it that you are upset about?

[howardetta]

I love the folks (yes, Ron, I am talking to you) who want to bash him for not coming out and calling that selfish and arrogant. Because, we are all so sure that had he just been honest and not lied about this, he would have been greeted as a liberator . . . no wait, I'm mixing my conflicts again . . aarrgh . . I better go over and bash those Hillsborough School Board members who just approved a secular calendar . . .

[Jeff]

What really disturbes me is that a so called "man of God" would actually have the unmitigated gall to stand up in a public forum and state that he knows what Jesus would do.To the good reverend: ever read the part about judge not lest you be judged? or does this not apply in this situation?

[mh222]

Just to correct those of you who seem to skim articles for points you agree with: He had told his wife, and they had developed a plan TOGETHER with his therapist about how to inform his son in private, then how to go public regarding this issue.

The St. Pete times sensationalized this story due to their greed and desire for ratings and it has cost this dedicated and HONEST man his job. He had to come forth eventually, however it should have been his choice when to bring it forward, not the Times'.

[D]

I don't see why it's anyone's business as long as he does his job correctly.

What else matters?

And why do so many of our "religious" citizens seem so obsessed with the sexual behavior of others?

[gloucester]

Given the 14 or so years on the job, I am amazed that he did not see this coming. He is not a typical employee. He is a public leader and like it or not must bow to the perceptions of the constituents. Perhaps he stuck through this because this was the way he would get his golden parachute and whatever he can salvage of his life. Yes, he was treated shabily, but he should have seen it coming. If not now, then in a few months when his showing up in a dress really caused a three ring circus. Just look at the commission meeting last night. Perhaps one day the public will accept this in their leadership, but that time is not now.

As for the bible argument, certainly this sort of thing was not possible back then and was not on the biblical radar. What is certain is that he is (for better or worse) changing what he was born with and one can only surmise how this would have been seen at that time. Despite current technology, one still must wonder if just because we can do something it is a good idea. Not the discussion I want to get in now.

[Jeff]

In 20-30 years, we will look back on acts like this in shame, just like we look back now in shame on those who opposed civil rights for black people in the 60's.

I can assure everyone that this issue is far from over. In a week or so, the ACLU or another activist organization will sue the City of Largo and win. The Largo taxpayers will be the losers.

[Gary]

Don't judge all religious leaders by this moron from Lighthouse Baptist, who apparently doesn't remember anything he reads in the scriptures except what suits him. When he spouts off like he did he should remember there will come a day when he stands in judgement in front of GOD and will have to explain who gave him the right to speak for Jesus.

[Ron]

HB, i'm not really upset at anything. Actually, I find this whole discussion rather entertaining. It brings out the best and the worst of people. Also, I hardly think that the concept of putting your family first is "trite". My point was simply that if this was not mostly about his own ego, he would have discussed this with his family when he first started the treatments. The fact that he told others, without informing his family first, shows that he is self-centered and puts himself ahead of his family. This is the poor judgement that I refer to. I am a live and let live kind of guy, as long as it doesn't infringe on my rights. By the way, I totally agree with the posts about the inappropriate comments from the Pastor. Everyone will ultimately be judged by their creator. I am not attempting to judge his lifestyle choice, just questioning the judgement used when making that choice.

[annie]

Okay, let me try to enlighten some people here.

Most transsexuals are told in early childhood that they must never tell anyone that they have this problem lest people consider them crazy or freaks. They grow up trying to suppress these very valid feelings their whole life.

Eventually (you know, being human and all) they come across someone that captures their heart and they fall in love. Do they tell that person and run them off, or decide to try to silence the internal conflict in the name of love, giving up their hope of a happy, well-adjusted life in deference to trying to put their soulmate's happiness first? Usually, it's the latter.

Very few transsexuals can live like this forever though. Eventually the depression and the silent self-loathing get so bad they affect every aspect of their life. They eventually have to face the music and realize that they cannot put their own happiness in a box and lock it away forever.

When that happens, they tell their spouse. Most wives do leave, some don't. Some support their spouse and delight in the fact that their spouse is finally starting a journey where they can be able to *live* for the first time ever. Some stay married and just best friends, some stay married and stay fully in love.

How do I know? I'm married to a man in transition to becoming a woman. Family therapy has exposed the amount of self sacrifice that was done by my soulmate, in order that our lives not be disrupted. My daughter, my family and I are thrilled to finally have this wonderful, giving, moral person in our lives finally start to take steps towards true happiness.

It is a birth defect. TS people suffer from early childhood and are shamed into telling themselves that they can keep their secret quiet their whole lives. It's not deceit, it is survival and trying to keep others they care about from suffering. Blame the very people who are calling Susan deceitful for forcing her to suffer all those years. It is precisely those voices that keep transsexual people from transitioning young enough to live a normal life out in the open.

Stanton's wife knew about Susan's issues. They were working together on it, much like my partner and I are. How dare you judge them for finally having the bravery to stand up and say they are working to fix a long standing problem.

Good luck to you and your family Susan, and I hope you reconsider your comment about suing the city if you are officially fired. If not for the monetary award, then at least for the ability to push the laws forward to keep this from happening to others, and use the money to move to a friendlier place.

[Amanda]

This was exactly a point that I had discussed with friends and family regarding this issue: Isn't this clearly a discrimination case? He is basically saying he is gay, and we are firing him for that?! That's ridiculous. I have worked for the City of Largo for three years now, and not once have I ever had anything bad to say about Mr. Stanton. He's done a lot of good for the community. In essence, what has he done "wrong" and why is the REAL reason of him being fired? Because people think he can't do his job now due to a sex change? Absolutely ludicrous. His brain isn't changing, only his outward appearance. Get over it people. Largo is known for being diverse, but clearly the people of the community are not embracing this. It feels as if we are stuck in the 1950's, it's the 21st century---be open minded and get over it. It's not as big of a deal as everyone is making it.

[Alexandra]

The Largo City Council has been working with Susan for years. She just LOOKED like Steve.

I would like to ask these commissioners what secret they have that, if it were placed on page 1 of the Times, it would cost them their jobs. Are they willing to stand up before the people of Largo and air their deep secrets?

Good luck, Susan. I honestly hope you DO sue the city and win.

[k faye]

The REAL reason he was fired is that there is no way any company or municipality will pay a woman the same as a man.

[Pat]

Howard and others forget that Stanton fired people frequently for activities that took place on their own time, activities he felt would embarrass the city. How could they keep him on after that kind of hypocrisy?

[MLV]

A FURTHER ENLIGHTENMENT:

Transsexual persons are NOT GAY. This has nothing to do with sexual orientation. This is a gender mis-orientation.

People, do you know what an hermaphrodite is? Too many of those born with both sets of organs had their gender decided by someone other than God. A transsexual is probably better understood as an hermaphrodite that was born without the two sets of genitalia. Who is to blame for that? And why should one have to live with a mistake when it can be rectified with today's scientific advances?

There are a lot of eunuchs in the world today - some by choice, some because of cancer. Would you condemn them as well?

One other point:
Gender & sexual orientation are determined in the womb by the fluctuation of a woman's hormones - male and female hormones. Maybe we should blame Mom for being 'normal' and not finding a way to bear a child ex-utero.

[MiMi]

Thanks but no thanks for your "enlightenment" Annie.All kinds of people with all kinds of sexual problems have all kinds of stories.There are ten commandments not suggestions.Adultry is a sin.In marriage vows you forsake all others.Christians have the right to stand up for our truths.Where are your truths from?Made up?Adjusted?Manipulated?

[D]

Plenty of adulterers are in public office, and that's one of the Big Ten Commandments.

Where's the Christian outrage at them? Why aren't Christians packing City Hall demanding that adulterers lose their jobs?

Seems hypocritical to me.

[HB]

Exactly, MiMi. They are commandments, not suggestions. Shall we ask the commissioners if any of them work on Sunday? Fire any of them who do? After all, it's a sin to work on the sabbath. By the way, those commandments also approve of slavery - it's just that I cannot covet YOUR slaves.

[CJ]

When was staying your spouse adulterous MiMI?

Also you stated "All kinds of people with all kinds of sexual problems have all kinds of stories" that's what you & others like you can't get through your heads.
This is NOT a SEXUAL problem it's MENTAL.

Sex does NOT enter into it.

[Howard Troxler]

Hey D, that is a point I have made in the past myself (and will make again in tomorrow's column). It's not that "sin" disqualifies someone -- it's somebody ELSE's sin that does it, since our own failings and various violations of the Ten Commandments obviously are not what the Almighty had in mind when He said all that stuff...

I am a catholic, heterosexual, 30 something, female who really knows nothing about transexuality. I do not understand it. What I do understand is that Mr Stanton and his family are going through a very challenging personal matter. This is not about religion or politics. Mr Stanton has not lied to anyone. As a matter of fact, once approached with the rumor by the St Pete Times, Mr Stanton was very honest about his position. He has done what anyone else in his position would have done by confiding in those he trusted the most for comfort, support and guidance, while preparing to make his personal matter very public. Maybe he wouldn't be able to perform his duties after his "change". Or maybe he would be able to do a better job. I am disappointed that the commissioners did not give Mr Stanton the support he asked for and deserved and give him the opportunity to continue to be a successful city manager. I don't think "we the people" have advanced near as far as we would like to believe when judgement is placed upon a man for being different. This isn't about religion or politics. This is about people being uncomfortable with something they are unfamiliar with. This is about not wanting to step out of our comfort zone and embrace diversity. I am sorry, Mr Stanton. I am sorry so much hatred and judgement has been placed upon you. Best of luck to you and your family.

[annie]

MiMi, I have tried to follow your logic, but I just don't get your point. Did I say my spouse or I have cheated on one another or are divorcing? I know, I bet you didn't even READ what I wrote! :)

I'm so very proud of my spouse for not only all the countless hours of public service and volunteer work done in the past to help strangers, but also for the courage in dealing with this issue despite people that treat others with such venom.

[Cindy]

Trust is a management issue. He hid a major decision from his family and employer. He admits this decision makes a difference to him and thereby the work he does. He does not consider himself gay. I'm gay and he managed this matter poorly.

[Keysha]

I have followed this story since before it hit as a BIG story. This poor person was shoved out into the media regarding this very private matter. Had the media not stepped in and had things played out as they had planned, the Stanton family wouldn't be in this sort of mess. Yes it is shocking to most but we as a society that teaches our children tolerance and acceptance should use this as a chance for "values" and bravery. My children have asked questions about this because it's been all over the news. I explained that everybody is different and we should never judge anyone, you don't live their life and you can't make their choices. Some people have issues in their life that aren't things about themself that they can change any more than you can change your natural eye color or hair color and discrimination is wrong, REGARDLESS of the reason. We are a society that has kept several presidents that have lied and done several morally unjust things, if this person can do their job effectively, then there isn't a reason to fire them. If S. Stanton can't do the job then it's time to move on, BASED ON JOB PERFORMANCE, not on anyone's Moral or Ethical judgements. It has nothing to do with religion, the bible, or "right & wrong" beliefs. It's a JOB, no one is asking you to walk in these shoes or live this life, just do your job. Work is work and Personal is Personal. Leave it like that!

[Pat]

Keysha: you miss the point again. Stanton has a policy of not keeping employees personal stuff personal. How do you address this? Quit ignoring this point and droning on about personal life vs. job performance. Stanton's own policy has made that point mute. He has fired more than 10 employees for stuff they may have done or said on their own time, not at work

[MLV]

Cindy,
You haven't comprehended that which you've read - he did not keep it from his family & employer, just his minor son, and that to protect the son from the crap that's flying around.

[Mark]

The Moron from Lighthouse Baptist is ron sanders (the pastor).. As far as I'm concerned that type of leadership for children is by far more damaging. A man of God my arse! He should be the one looking to lose his job. I am thoroughly disgusted with the behavior of the Largo City council. This will be a huge black eye for this community perpetrated by our elected officials.. Interesting to note that this has gone internationally. I wonder how much thought (not much it appears) was used in this tragic event. Oh, and just for the record, for those on the city council and those reading this... as a retired US Marine the separation of church and state is very, very important. read your history, look down that road your on..

[timbrian]

It takes great courage on Mr. Stanton's part to follow thru on this. It is not easy in our society to "be different".
Mr. Stanton, the City of Largo, apparently will lose the integrity you brought to the job. Too bad very little will be left when you leave.
And to the Christians with their pocket full of stones as usual - how easy it must be to let your religious "leaders" tell you what to believe and feel, who to throw stones at, and have no concept of thinking for yourselves. Hey Mimi & "Pastor" Ron - keep peddling your ignorance. And you speak for "Jesus" - now wouldn't he be proud today. City of Largo - go across the bay and join Tampa, they promote ignorance and prejudice also. Shame on you all.

[Keysha]

Pat: If the City of Largo chose to fire the city manager over POOR PERFORMANCE or for the firing of those other employees IMPROPERLY, I would support this dismissal completely. What you fail to realize is that this person has held this position for 14 or 17 years and if there were employees fired over misconduct and it was done improperly then, yes TERMINATE IMMEDIATELY~ BUT THAT ISN'T THE CASE OR THE ISSUE HERE!! The meeting last night wasn't about "he didn't do his job and we should fire him." It was because "he's choosing to change gender can the job still be done properly and can the city of largo stand the heat".... Sad but true.

[Carolyn]

Has anyone seen the movie TRANSAMERICA? You can probably rent it at Blockbusters.
In my very humble nonChristian opinion, the hearing in Largo was an "assassination" of a public official. The St. Petersburg Times should pay more attention to the WAR in Iraq and other issues. Please give the story a rest. Namaste!

[CJ]

Perhaps the commission should have read their own policies Note Section A3
http://www.largo.com/Commission_agendas/commission_packets/oct_14_2003/managers_report.html

The new policy mandates treating all human beings with respect regardless of race, religion, national origin, gender, age, disability, sexual orientation, and gender identity or expression

[annie]

CJ:
A-3. Implementation of Discrimination and Harassment Prohibition Policy

Human Resources Director Sinz reports that the City Commission has approved the Discrimination and Harassment Prohibition policy effective immediately. The new policy specifically prohibits bias, prejudice, intimidation, coercion and harassment by any City employee at the work place, during business trips, or at City functions. The new policy mandates treating all human beings with respect regardless of race, religion, national origin, gender, age, disability, sexual orientation, and gender identity or expression. Any verbal, physical, or visual conduct that belittles, demeans, denigrates, or shows hostility toward an individual or group will disciplined up to and including discharge. At the regular Commission meeting on October 7, 2003, Mayor Jackson asked how staff will document that all employees receive and understand the new policy. Human Resources Director Sinz advises that the revised policy will be distributed to employees. In addition, Human Resources will highlight the policy in the Monday Morning Briefing, and will conduct additional training for all employees in November and December. Employees will be required to sign a form indicating receipt of the policy, and pledging to uphold this policy to keep the City of Largo a work place free of harassment and discrimination. New employees will receive the policy at sign-in and will also be required to sign a form.

BTW - Normal is an excellent movie as well.

[Nick]

It's open season on the Largo City Council and members of the First Baptist Church of Indian Rocks. Anyone with dirt on them, feel free to make it public!

[mac]

If he decided one day to show up in muscle shirts, sporting tattoos, with a pierced navel and nose, could they fire him for representing the City in the manner they do not want it represented?

It would be hard to have much credibility negotiating union contracts, hiring/firing people, negotiating with developers, looking for federal funding, etc, in a muscle shirt with nose piercings.

So, he is taking a more dramatic form of wardrobe change and surgical modification, and it's wrong to terminate because it also alledgedly involves some sort of sexual and/or mental issue?

Not seeing the reasoning here. It goes to credibilty, and keeping your bosses happy.

[Roni]

I was struck by the tragic irony of the photo in the St. Pete Times online edition late last night regarding this story. As Stanton is leaving, the seal of the City of Largo behind his head proclaims "City of Progress."

I think Largo needs a new seal.

[howardetta]

Mr. Troxler
What do you think of Troxblog so far? Is this what you expected? We are glad you are here!

[Ben]

Hey bible thumpers, better change your bracelets from WWJD to WWJT--Who Would Jesus Terminate? And aren't you just a little afraid of men who wear those plastic bracelets and necklaces with crosses? Doesn't that come just a little too close to cross dressing? If Largo is the 'City of Progress,' then last night's witch hunt shows how mired in the medieval mud the Commission and city really are. Forget landscaped boulevards, controlled signage, developed downtown, and beautified city parks; this is mere window dressing that permits ignorance, fundamentalism, and mindless superstition to live large in Largo.

[HB]

Right you are, Ben. If this is what Jesus would do, then what happened to the idea behind dying on the cross? He got up there and said, "they know not what they do, except the Largo commission and the bible beating extremists?" All of this explains a lot about why we are in such a mess around the world - ignorants out trying to force their prejudices down everyone else's throat. That's not the Christian way I was brought up to believe. If all these "good" folks would simply shut up and mind their own business, calm would again prevail and we wouldn't have to worry about the effect such idiocy is having on our children and on our commission's productivity.

[I'm not Howard either]

Didn't take the time to read all the posts, so if I'm parroting someone else's idea, my bad.

IF jesus were alive today and in Lrgo I would think if you described to him what was happening he would have a perplexed look on his face as to how this was possible, seeing he lived 2000 years ago and gender bending would be a very alien concept for him to take in.

But I would also have to guess that he wouldn't be on the "Fire Steve" bandwagon either, at least until he knew how Steve/Susan would actually be received by his fellow city workers.

[Steve]

The liberal St.Pete Times is loving this ! OK Howard Troxler, thanks for your version of reality.Please enlighten me with more of your propaganda!

[D]

Ah, another shining example of Christianity spreading love, understanding, and encouraging peace and harmony in the community.

Or the opposite, I guess.

They seem to be a very hateful bunch of people.

[PAT]

Keysha: I don't fail to realize anything, I work at Largo.You do not. Stanton has to be in the position to fire people for their personal business everyday, he is allowed to do this, unfortunately. He would no longer be able to do this with a straight face, and then could no longer to his job. If you don't like it, lobby Largo to change it;s rules.

[Lisa]

Keysha is not following the facts of the case, she is arguing how the private secote may work, not the public sector

[Duffiedawg]

I am reminded of the cartoon which shows a woman stating "Do you wish to speak with the man in charge, or the woman that knows what's really going on?"

Seems to me Largo had the opportunity to have the best of both worlds, and muffed it.

[Jill]

You self righteous, so called tolerant libs are never around to defend people like the woman he kicked out of City Hall for coming in to apply for a building permit wearing her military uniform. So personal choice in clothing doesn't matter? Not sure if you, or Stanton are the worst hypocrites.

[HB]

Yet another reason for firing him that has absolutely nothing to do with his announcement. Here's an idea - let's tie him to a stake on top of a woodpile and set fire to it. Got a match, Jill?

Oh - you're not sure who are the "worst" hypocrites? I am.

[Pat]

I started working in Largo city hall 3 years before Stanton started. Most of us would have supported him if he hadn't refused to support others he accused of embarassing the city in their private lives. Don't let the paper fool you, he was not a great manager, the commission almost fired him 3 other times. One even said they kept him around until they could find a better person.

[Lisa]

HB: That has everything to do with his announcement. He was going to change his dress and be in the papers for his personal life. A big No No according to Stanton's rules

[Pat]

Helloooo! Stanton himself kicked the woman out and refused to see her in her clothing of choice. How is that not related to his announcement? Are we even talking about the same case? Geez.

[Lisa]

Pat: Don't even bother, these people are only inerested in gender and sex related issues, justice, fairness, common sense is not something they comprehend.You know Stanton and city hall, they don't even know who they are discussing

[Laura]

I was at the meeting last night. I heard from a US soldier who received a letter written & signed by Mr. Stanton requesting her not to wear her US military uniform to town meetings because it made sompe people uncomfortable. What does he think his dressing in drag would do? What many don't realize is that Mr. Stanton required higher standards for his employees & others than he did for himself. He has in the past fired employees for choices made on their personal time that in no way were illegal or affected their job performance. That is why many informed Largo citizens now do not trust him. Not because of his gender change.

[HB]

There may have been many, many reasons to fire the guy - like Pat said. Then fire him for that or those reasons. But what everyone is arguing now has nothing to do with the stated reason. If the reason is he refused to support others or he was not a great manager or he showed up late at work - fine. But the argument being advanced is all about his sex change decision.

And, Lisa - homosexuality is NOT involved - at least not so far. That's why I said the Leviticus cite is not on point. He says he's really a woman and wants to alter himself physically. He doesn't say - and no one else has - that he's gay.

He may be a hypocrite or a liar or a terrible person or a failure as a manager. If so - fire him. If those are the reasons, why all the uproar and condemnation about the sex change? Just say the guy was not performing and, therefore, he's fired.

[Don]

HB is more interested in pyromania than the facts. You can be as violent or hysterical as you want, it doesn't change the fact that Stanton was fired for a reason he helped establish in the Largo City government's culture. It is sad, wish he could have seen his part in it before losing his job.

[Laura]

Many did say that last night.Job performance is holding yourself to the same standards as you would your employees and he hasn't and I think the Commissioners mentioned that when they said he would not have the backing of his employees now and must be removed.

[Jill]

You win HB, you are way scary, I am sighning off. I wonder how many others you scare of message board with aggressiveness. The nuts always win.

[Lisa]

Yeah, I am clicking over to saner pastures now as well. It was fun to visit the dark side anyway. By HB, don't start any fires.

[D]

Did anyone fire the woman who wore the military uniform?

Did she lose her job and career?

Just asking.

If you're going to be comparing apples and oranges, after all...

[Mike]

I guess we will see who is "right" come election time. I am guessing some commissioners will be unseated. As for Jesus, I would say he would hug Steve and give him some peace and love!

[Wayne]

Just a point for all of the comments re: discrimination of homosexuals - in most quarters of this state it is very legal to fire a person due to their homosexuality. Homosexuals do not have legal protection from most opportunities for others to discriminate, like jobs or housing.

[NSM]

His biggest mistake was that of daring to be different than the majority. We live in a society that preaches individuality, but practices conformity. If you dare to be different than the mainstream than you pay the price for being different. You have the freedom to express yourself, and be an individual as long as in doing so you dress, act, and think like everyone else. There would not have been the uproar there was had he came out and said he was gay. The gay and Lesbian community has for the most part been absorbed by the mainstream, and while it is still looked at unfavorably in some circles, it has also gaind at a mininum a level of tolerance even acceptance than that of the transgendered community. The transgender, contrary to popular belief is the epitome of conformity. Who else will undergo the the trails these people do to find a conformity of body and mind?
And what better group of people to make societie's scape goats and social pariah, a group that at its core just wants to seamlessly blend into the fabric of society and disapear into the life of American mundania(sic), of which many do. What the media however presents to the public are the fringe element of the transgender community that either fall into one of two categories, the " Oh my god, I can't belive that was a man! " or the " Oh my god, what a freak " what fails to be seen are the countless others that meld into society unknown by any. For 20 + years I have been one of those people,I have walked amongest you, worked amongest, laughed amongest you, and cried amongest you. You may have known me as your local bartender at your favorite pub, the doctor you take your children to when they scrape their kneees, the neighbor you chatted with while watering your lawn, the engineer that works 2 cubicles down from you, or the college student at the local university who sits next to you in class. I am everywhere. Iam the part of the transgender community that the media does not report on, the part that is not sensatinal enough to be front line news iam the the part of the transgender community that looks like you and who fears to be different and receive the kind of narrowminded bigotry that was displayed in Largo Tuesday night. I am the perfect scape goat, the ideal social pariah, the person so afraid of being revealed as being different and having my life ruined that I will not even out myself in order to defend myself. We are the ones who seek conformity at the cost of our individual freedoms and rights as human beings and are punished for it. In 20 yrs so much in this area has changed and so much sadly has not.

[christin milne]

To the religious inclinded in Largo:

I just wanted to take a moment to sit down, sip some coffee, and perhaps illuminate that all that is transgendered is not quite the evil that you might perceive it is. While I can appreciate your views
from a religious standpoint (not that I agree); you are certainly entitled to speak out against what
you choose to object to.

As is my right. As a 20 year military veteran, I actually earned the right after being deployed to serve the nation in many different places, in many different ways. Risking my life so that all citizens, transgendered, gay straight could sleep in peace at night...How do you sleep? Are you thank full to those who served? Would you choose to discriminate against me...after all, I am a Transgendered Veteran. I'm an easy target for your hate from the pulpit, for your indoctrination of the innocent to despise what they don’t understand. I'm here and I exist. And I am Transgendered. I was the one that manned the aircraft on a cold dark night to fly into the darkness in a winters gale to help a floundering fishing vessel. I was the one to fly to Bangor on an icy day from Coast Guard Air Station Cape Cod to get an infant in an incubator to Boston, despite the weather being so bad that the FAA cleared the airspace of any departing flights....I was there for you, despite your hate for me....ohhh by the way, where did you serve your country?

What a marvelous, diverse nation we share that allows this to happen. Were we in North Korea, Iran, or any of the other such nations, we both would be talking to each other in a gulag, prison camp or some such place. Because our nation is "diverse" we can allow each other the respect of humanity. Being a diverse nation also allows for some who might not follow the same path that the masses choose. Some that might have a different calling from their God.

A virtue that is oft expressed as christian is the claim to traditional values. Traditional values are a wonderful thing, but what happens when the steamroller of "traditional values" rolls over all in its path? Are we not to consider our fellow person as worthy as our own being?

I am a transgendred woman; being a "non traditional" person I am subject to the tyranny of the majority. I am subject to stereotypes that those enlightened media types like Jerry Springer have fostered. I am also not welcome in many places you feel at ease in, churches, stores, hospitals, restaurants ect. All because I'm non traditional.

Because I am non traditional, I choose to serve in the Coast Guard for 20 years, to help save lives as a career. Once while on a rescue mission to pluck some unfortunate souls from an unforgiving cold grey ocean, I wondered what their thoughts might have been when they saw their rescue appear on the horizon. Would they have been aghast to know that a transgendered woman, a "non traditional" person was part of the team to bring them to safety? Would they have paused to consider salvation from the sea, if it meant being helped to safety by a non traditional person? Was my team acting as an agent for God at that moment when we risked our own lives to save others? Did the fact that one of the team would become a woman later in life, tarnish that moment?

Finally, what will you do when there is no one left to hate or discriminate against?...I suppose its not unlike what the KKK faced after its decline. Sadly there will always be an audience for anger; Groups like yourself and the Westborough Baptist church led by the example of agape love "Pastor" Fred Phelps leader of the Westborough Baptist Church seem to always garner a ignorant but willing following.

I feel for Susan and her family...a story much like my own...she is so strong inside to be true to who she is. Her foritude will serve annother community so well that they will openly welcome her.

With Gods love,

Christin Milne
USCG Retired

[cate]

Wayne, just a note. The City of Largo did pass protection from discrimination that covers gender identity (transgender issues). Then they said that the reason they fired Susan was for the gender identity issue.

I just hope the taxpayers remember that Mary Black, not Susan Stanton, is to blame when they pay the bill for the lawsuit that will surely come.

[Liam]

I am a former pastor of 20 years. I am a transgendered man. Christianity is not the only religion in the United States. Our country was founded that each of us could have our relgious freedom.
We are in the united States to be ourselves. Somewhere down the line, we screwed up bad. Jesus and our Creator did not judge. When Jesus was asked what is the greatest commandment? Jesus replied, "Love you Lord with all your heart, mind and soul AND love your neighbor was yourself.
Hello, a lot of people just messed up real bad.
Congratulations Susan. You can now be whole!

[Howard Troxler]

Howard here again. Thanks for the many comments. As for the question, is the blog what I expected, well, it's only been four days... Interesting that some items get 0-2 comments, and this one almost 75...

[SWLiP]

One comment I've frequently seen is that the City shouldn't have been paying for Stanton's "transition." Well, now Stanton will get one year's severance, in addition to other benefits. If that amount is not subject to mitigation (i.e., if it's a liquidated amount owed notwithstanding future employment), then Stanton has indeed just been handed an amount that, assuming he gets another job, will indeed be just about enough to pay for his surgery, etc.

As the French say, it is the irony, no?

[Susan]

What the heck is it with Floridians and their freakish obsession with the contents of someones' underwear?

[Janet]

Mr. Milne: You can't even spell "inclined", hard to take seriously anything you write.

[Pat]

Howard: Why can't the newspaper report on Stanton's firing practices and investigate any hypocrisy instead of just doing puff pieces on him. My husband works with Stanton, we live down the street from him. He is anything but tolerant and compassionate, fires people for really bigoted reasons. Could that be most of his downfall?

[Pat]

Thanks for this forum, by the way, Mr. Troxler. I really felt strongly about this, I fear people are missing the real story on this. Help!!

I'm a Christian, Republican stay-at-home mother of four living a conservative life with my husband of 20 years in a family-oriented suburb of Tampa. I don't know why this story is important to me, I don't know any transgendered people or have much interest in city government. But I'm stunned by the behavior of the Largo commission. I'm horrified by the self-proclaimed spokesperson for Jesus, he doesn't seem to know the same Christ that I do. I'm upset with the Times! Why was it necessary to break this story months before Steve/Susan was ready to do so - it wasn't yet "news".

To Steve/Susan: I'm sorry. I'm sorry I didn't speak up in your defense, I'm sorry you've been treated so badly. I wish you all the best, and hope you find love and support and happiness. I hope you believe that the harm being done to you is by a vocal and nasty minority; it isn't justified and it isn't a reflection of God.

To Steve/Susan's son: Your dad is the kind of person with whom I'd be proud to work, attend church, or be neighbors. I'm guessing that being his son right now is very hard, and I'm so sorry that you have to deal with this in the media. It isn't his fault. It isn't fair. It would be to your credit if you can someday respect and appreciate how courageously your parents dealt with an extraordinarily difficult set of circumstances, and how much they tried to love and protect you through it. You may be angry, sad, or confused for awhile as this is a lot to deal with. But ultimately I hope you can forgive the people who have been so hateful to you and your family and see them as flawed and small-minded. They will not, ultimately, have power or influence over your life.

[Lynn]

After hearing of the City of Largo's decision regarding this issue, and then reading everyone's very passionate comments, I have come to one conclusion - I am so very, very glad I live in unincorporated Pinellas county where the Largo mob holding lit torches can't reach me.

[christin milne]

Janet,
Thanks so much for correcting my ill spelling...so gracious of you.
Christin

nice to know you read my post...thanks..:)

[Katrina]

Stanton, it will come out, has been using his position as Manager to set up the commission and city policy to fit his own needs. This "circle of trust" thing was really interesting, he was hiring and firing people based on personal relationships. That is why this "personal" issue effects his job!! Eureka!

[Janet]

Milne: Anytime, I love to "educate" those in need. It is the loving thing to do. Keep trying to enlighten yourself!!

[Nik]

I suggest that Stanton run for Mayor of Gulfport. That election is coming up and I think that he would be accepted by a much more inclusive and tolerant constituency in the City of Gulfport.

[Katrina]

Hey Lynn, I am glad you don't live here too!! We have too many learning deprived people here as it is. Keep up those knee-jerk reactions without researching the facts of the subject.

[Susan (not Steve)]

Now, now, Lynn is just repeating what she hears on tv.It saves her time on thinking for herself

[christin]

Janet,
Im sure that i do have more to learn, as we all do...especially those who still discriminate....
Christin

[Janet]

Let's get back to the matter at hand. I will try to see the other side's point of view, can you guys see mine? Is it even possible to you Stanton supporters that he could be at fault at all here? All issues have two sides, if not more. Isn't it tolerant to consider what others are saying?

[Janet]

Christin: Is it possible you are discriminating? You do it too, but in your mind it is justified.

[Senor]

Howard,

I heard as soon as he becomes a woman that he's going to convert to lesbianism so he can stay with his wife. I think that's weird.

Largo should treat lesbians and gays the same way. It's not natural and shouldn't be tolerated.

I'm so proud of Largo. It's the best place to live even if I have a Clearwater mailing address.

I don't like those Scientologists either.

[Katrina]

Yeah, Christin, you don't have the high ground any more than the people you disagree with. It is stylish to say you support everything, everyone. It takes alot courage not to and be called a bigot. Good luck to you, I am outta here.

[christin]

I guess we find ourselves both with the same human frailites...but you didnt loose a job cause of who you are.

The only thing i discriminate against is those who would deny me and others humanity...if you believe in any religious deity, heck thats ok with me...i wont complain a wit..i just happen to agree with Thomas Jeffersonand his thoughts on the church, but i guess he too discriminated:

Millions of innocent men, women and children, since the introduction of Christianity, have been burnt, tortured, fined and imprisoned; yet we have not advanced one inch towards uniformity.

-Thomas Jefferson, Notes on Virginia, 1782

[Susan S]

Wow, when did you start this blog? It's much more civilized than The Buzz. Adam and the gang need to monitor the nastiness that goes on over there.

[Janet]

Good bye too, stay tolerant of others views, don't call people bigots just because you disagree with them. Hey, at least you all care enough to post stuff.

[Susan]

Man, dude, Christin, learn how to spell. I am a bad speller too but DUDE!

[Pat]

Yeah, I am sure you mean well but my 2nd grader spells better than you Christin.

[christin]

the english majors are out in force tonight...god bless em all...:)

[Steve]

The City Commission has shamed fundamental American principals. Can anyone think of a better example of the concept of "pursuit of happiness", as penned by Thomas Jefferson, then choosing one's gender?

[Cody]

Hey, my mom dragged me in to this, I hate spelling but I did get a 97 on my last test. 2nd grade blows.

[Pat]

no, but the second grade graduates are out in force.