New York, London, Paris, Munich, Everybody's Talkin' 'Bout -- Mass Transit

So, what's it going to be, then?

Light rail that runs all over the Tampa Bay area, from Pasco County down to Bradenton, and east to Lakeland?

How about just a rail backbone -- Tampa-St. Pete-Clearwater -- tied in with really smart bus rapid transit that doesn't stop at a county line?

Or, what the heck, we could just keep widening the interstates and building toll roads...

More leaders in the Tampa Bay area are talking about mass transit these days than ever. It was the dominant theme of Tampa Mayor Pam Iorio's inaugural speech on Sunday, after she was sworn in for her second term.

In February, there was an encouraging summit of leaders from Hillsborough, Pinellas and Pasco counties and the cities of Tampa, St. Petersburg and Clearwater.

In March, a gathering of business leaders, including the Tampa Downtown Partnership, the Westhore Alliance and the New North Transportation Alliance, said mass transit to get people to work was essential to the business future.

In the Legislature, the local delegation is pushing a bill to create a regional transportation authority.

The separate agency that runs Hillsborough's bus system is talking about light rail, and is trying some new express bus routes to encourage commuters. The Pinellas agency, PSTA, is more bus-centric and reluctant to play with others (see PSTA's disagreement with that criticism, and the critics' replies, in the comments to this previous post and to this one as well). But even the PSTA is talking about some form of bus rapid transit.

Lastly, in March the state Department of Transportation identified what it thought were potential corridors for any mass-transit system in the Bay area. They included:

* An east-to-west corridor from St. Petersburg through Gateway, Tampa's West Shore and downtown, and over to Lakeland

* St. Petersburg south to Bradenton and Sarasota

*  Tampa north to USF, east Pasco and Brooksville

* Tampa's West Shore up to northwest Hillsborough, central Pasco and Brooksville

* St. Petersburg to north Pinellas and New Port Richey

In sum, there are a lot of different people talking. But there are some general principles that ought to apply regarding cost, cooperation, and usability. I think this is going to be the subject of my print column tomorrow, so anything folks have to say here as a comment to this post would be most appreciated...

Comments

[Jim Johnson]

Public transportation works in Europe because the cities are compact in area, and it's a short hop from wherever you are to where you wanna go.

Our problem is our sprawl and zoning. It's not a quick hop & jump to anywhere. We're a region of ten thousand little islands.

Our homes arent near our jobs or schools or where we shop. Light rail cant possibly get many of us to work or school because of the sprawl.

The other thing is, chains will fight light rail. If light rail could solve the proximity problem (and it cant), it would ruin business for a lot of folks who depend on road traffic.

At the very best, commuters will be afflicted with surly, expensive concessionaires at the rail stops. Their wares and people will be the worst, and you'll get to pay 3 prices for it.

There needs to be some serious thinking about how we arrange ourselves within our communities, then see how we can better get us from here to there.

[20/20]

I completely concur with Jim. Unfortunately, the whole light rail concept has been a boondoggle in the waiting for many big business campaign contributors, and the politician they own will definitely try to push it.

The answer is an improved, effective, and efficient mass transit busing system that combines 20-minute to ½ hour routing goals, usable bus stop positioning and venues, high school and college (pre&post) peek usage, and an honest and mature public awareness campaign.

[Edger]

The only way to justify a rail system having anything to do with Pinellas, is to prove that there are at least 250,000 people a day trying to get into any of it’s 24 municipalities’ “downtowns” to get to work. This isn’t New York. Urban sprawl and the days of Rainey prevented any logical consideration, a long time ago.

[Carissa]

I disagree with Jim - light rail in Japan and Hong Kong does not seem to have hurt the proliferation of chains/impulse-buy purveyors. The concessionaires are no more overpriced than anything else and are actually very convenient outposts of larger chains that I continued to patronize.

As for the sprawl factor - this is valid to a degree, but we do have high traffic corridors that would benefit from a more efficient mass transit option. I think a combination of rail and bus rapid transit resources would be effective. I live in St. Petersburg and would most definitely utilize public transportation - I liked the idea mentioned in the Times recently of a rail line to Tropicana Field (and downtown, essentially).

Lastly, as Jim said, many of our homes aren't near where we work, go to school, or shop. Light rail and buses can get us very close, however, and then you may have to do some walking. The horror!

[Jim Johnson]

Singin' in the rain! I'm singin' in the rain! What a glorious feelin!

Oops. You caught me. I'm soooo embarrassed. But I digress.

I was imagining how lovely it'll be to stroll in the summer rain from my house to the rail station or the nearest bus stop.

I'm all for mass transit. I'm all for getting a paycheck and not working. I think light rail will work if we fill the downtown of every city with Scientologists. Because theyre about the only people who believe in being together in one place all the time.

[John Gibson]

To be honest, I am tired of all the talk about high minded mass transportaion systems and the reordering of society that must go with it.

Howard, my prediction is that 10 years after your column, nothing of substance will have come of it. I hate to sound so sour because I would be in favor of a successful system.

Mass transportation will never succeed until you can get Average Joe/Jane on board.

Why won't they get on board? Its terribly inconvenient, limiting and time consuming.

Why is this? Its because I can't go where I need to, when I need to. This may sound trivial to some, but think about your average week and average day.

How much of what you did this week would have to be cut out or severely modified if you were dependent on a mass transit system, even a good one. How much of this would you find acceptable in the long term?

Need to stop at the dry cleaners? Add an extra hour to your commute because you have to get off the transit system, walk to the cleaners, walk back and wait for another one to come. Oh yeah, you have to haul your stuff with you. The dirty clothes and the clean, along with whatever else you need for this trip.

Baseball practice or ballet lessons? Forget it kids, I don't have the strength to endure that one. I just got home with the groceries.

That extra walking might be a great thing on a pleasant spring day without much more than a sweater over your shoulder. Its a much different ordeal in August when you have to carry 10 bags of groceries as you trudge those last few blocks.

Corridors have been identified, and I suppose that is a good first step. However, when my real destination is anywhere from several blocks to several miles off the corridor, then the mass transit system fails to work for me and I won't use it.

Unless a system solves all 3 problems of convenience, limitations and time, you won't arrive at a system that will have widespread adoption.

[Howard Troxler]

Very interesting. I think you're right about the "Average Joe" factor. It has to be easier and more desirable to use it than to not use it. The existing bus systems on both sides of the bay do not meet this criterion -- they are really last-resort carriers with not-so-convenient schedules and, to be blunt about it, a bit of a stigma. HARTline in Tampa just announced an interesting experiment with running buses directly into the suburbs, a first step in getting people to ride... if there's a rail-rapid bus mix, it HAS to run places and stop at places that people want to go...

[20/20]

The cost associated with purchasing ROW prohibits the concept of rail. Its time was 30 years ago. Forward thinking was needed in 1977 in order to properly deal with our current situation via rail. An effective bus system using larger busses to run the major corridors and smaller buses to feed them could make a difference.

Bottom line though… If it’s going to take me an hour and ½ on a bus, I’ll deal with the 30-minutes of frustration in my car.

[John Gibson]

A good place to start may not be in the mass transportation arena at all. Start by reducing the need for transportation.

How about proposing redesignation of neighborhood communities that would allow residential side by side with businesses needed by the community such as the grocery stores, dry cleaners, doctors and other businesses that support the local community.

Regulations could easily be drawn to keep shopping malls, industry, major businesses and similar high impact entities in districts designated for their purpose.

Give these a few years to develop. In the interim, planning can begin on a two-fold mass transit system. One would provide transportation within a community. The other would provide it between designated districts.

I know this is sketchy, but given time it could work.

Great concept John, but count Pinellas out of that one, it's built out. It would take too long and cost too much to fully develop the idea, unless a category 5 stops by.

[John Gibson]

At first glance, it appears that it is built out. However, in reality, nothing stays the same. I have seen malls and industry come and go. Buildings go up and later they come down. I don't know if you remember when Central Plaza was the hot shopping district. Where is it now?

This would be a long range plan that would require more foresight than was had in the past.

Start by designating some residential areas as "mixed use communities" that allow low impact businesses and services to come in and set up shop.

Develop an internal transportation system to support that community. Something along the lines of trolleys. Encourage the use of alternate transportation within the community such as bicycles or even golf carts on other than main routes.

Soon you would see businesses buy properties and move in to take advantage of the neighborhood needs. The free market will take care of a lot of this.

The initial cost to the county and cities is low. Designate the areas, regulate them effectively and let the free market handle most of it. The biggest cost will be to provide the trolleys for the communities and the transportation system between communities and districts.

[Bruce Cotton]

John,

That's exactly what Grady Pridgen wanted to do in St. Pete, Mix housing and business so employees were close to home and work..but St. Pete nixed it because of density and his bid to over ride at the state level backfired.

I would suspect that in Painellas the main reason to ustilize light rail wouldn't be to relieve congestion by locals but to move tourists more effectively from one venue to another.

I would see an intermodal site at the Clearwater airport, running to the beaches as the primary route, with off shoots into the various city centers and along US 19. Possibly another intermodal site around Oldsmar and connecting to any proposed Hillsborough transit system( Course I've seen both counties pans and know they DON'T MEET...ANYWHERE).

[20/20]

The mixed-use concept/fad has been slow to materialize. In fact, it’s failed in many locations including Pinellas. It was used by developers to put them over the edge with local planning councils. The concept of live here, work here, play here, and shop here is indeed a nifty concept. However, there is one very – very – very weak link. That being the “work here” link.

$10 an hour jobs do not afford you a 300k+ dollar condo. Pinellas has squandered millions and millions in Economic Development dollars – passing it out like candy to consultants for PowerPoint presentations, and corporations in “tax incentives” – with no concept of, nor assurances of, a return on the investment.

Pinellas has become the land of the 10-dollar an hour job and the ½-million dollar home. The numbers simply do not work out.

[20/20]

In reality, supported by raw numbers, the tourism impact is insignificant to the big picture. Making local taxpayers pay for a rail system to carry tourists to the beaches… not going to cut it I’m afraid. If resident won’t pay .45-cent to ride a bus, there’s no way they’ll pay 2-3 dollars for a trip on a rail.

Pinellas is approximately 275 square miles packed with 1-million residents. Lack of reasonable control over development (smart development), has overburdened and out grown the infrastructure for close to 20 years now.

A rail is not the answer, just a boondoggle in waiting. An effective and efficient mass transit busing system will get us started in the right direction.

[McLuhan]

Comments regarding some of the issues raised in posts to this thread thus far, 1)Right of way acquisition--presents a meaningful impediment to development of a full fledged BRT program due to the impossibility of removing the bus from the traffic flow via the construction of dedicated lanes. It also impacts grade level light rail almost as significantly, although by utilizing existing rail beds this can still be a meaningful part of an intermodal alternate mass transit system(the overpasses at high volume vehicle traffic intersections would be very costly though). A guideway system(above grade rail, monorail, etc.) provides one answer to the right of way acquisition problem by simply utilizing existing right of way(such as an interstate highway) and building the track above the R.O.W. on a column that could be compared to the elevated expressway above the LeeRoy Selmon in Tampa, though on a far smaller, and thereby far less costly basis. 2)Dry Cleaners(or a pizza or sub shop for that matter)--At larger stations(as conceived, there would be a station/stop of some kind every mile or so) why not lease out space to such enterprises? this would lessen one of John Gibson's concerns, and provide convenience, and possibly even motivation for ridership. Additionally, the revenues derived could provide at least a modest cost offset for the operation and maintenance of such a transit system. 3)Ridership issues--another of J.Gibson's concerns is the walk likely to be involved from the main rail line. Clearly, a walk of more than a couple of blocks would necessitate access to either a basic bus route, or on higher volume corridors a limited BRT(I call it BRT "Light") route of the sort planned for the Central Av. Corridor in St Pete. In the long term though the type of mixed use residential/commercial districts you envision could be facilitated via redevelopment of areas adjacent to main rail line stops. 4)Ridership Assumptions--Predicting ridership numbers is at best inexact, and has been for any system built since the post WWII ascendancy of the automobile. You mostly have to rely upon the experiences of other areas similar to yours and public opinion surveys to devine your best estimate. Along those lines, the Pinellas Mobility Initiative(P.M.I.) did a benchmark public opinion survey a few years back which exceeded expectations in terms of favorability for a major intermodal project featuring light rail in some form. In response to one of 20/20's comments, the survey showed that the fare people both expected, and were willing to pay per ride was $2.00. Interestingly, the P.M.I. used $1.50(and was concerned that might be too high) when developing it's initial cost assumptions to implement such an intermodal alternate mass transit system.

[Jim Johnson]

There are plentiful issues within the comments of this thread, and many that havent been touched. Being a cynic, it's easy for me to imagine Pam Iorio insisting a train station be built atop swamp she owns out in Fort Lonesome. This state is full of roads and bridges to no-where. I'll bet Howard's paycheck every pol has a sack full of property to unload at premium prices. I mean, do you really trust any of your public officials to do the right thing?

Another issue is the desal plant. I'm guessing it missed its latest deadline to perform. It's millions over budget and useless, for all intents and purposes.

And, finally, the streets and roads wont go away if a train is built. The costs to maintain and improve them will continue.

[John Gibson]

Jim,

Unfortunately, the political issues you raise have the capability of killing the hopes for any success of any kind in this area.

Should this get off the ground and really start to gain some traction, it would really need a good bird dog to keep shedding the light on all the dark corners and push to keep things on track.

Leaving aside the "mixed use community" idea for the moment, here is another suggestion.

Deal first with the one of the primary transportation issues, which is the commute to and from work.

Go ahead and plan and develop solutions for the corridors. I like McLuhan's idea of using the existing interstate corridors for high speed rails. However, they will take years to develop and there are other corridors to consider.

In the interim put express buses on the corridors. Lots of them. Possibly dedicate lanes for them? People might be tempted to ride them when they see them zip by while they are stuck in traffic.

Develop stations for the corridor buses and lease commercial space in them. (credit again to McLuhan). This will increase the convenience factor and they will already be in place as the rails begin to supplant the buses.

Neighborhood transportation systems must be developed or all plans fail, as Howard said in his column. Trolleys are great for this. Put them in the residential areas and have them operate within one block of most residences.

On day one of the corridor system, if the neighborhood system is not in place, but is coming at some later point, the whole system will be a colossal failure. There will be few riders.

You can't have one without the other.

[Jim Johnson]

John
Back in the 1830s Florida got hot & bothered to get into the railroad business. Two lines were proposed: One from Tallahassee to St. Marks, and the other from Southwest Georgia to near Apalachicola.

My 4th great-grandfather built the second line within a couple of years, using his money and investor money. It had real choo-choos and track, and they built a large port facilty. Twenty years later the Tallahassee line remained a mule powered wagon on wood rails with no connection to the Georgia railroad at Thomasville, a few miles away. As late as the 1890s Tallahassee was using the tracks for a mule powered trolley. The Apalachicola & Northern Railroad is still hauling freight and making money.

I'm afflicted with my ancestor's sense of 'git er done.' I think there needs to be some sober & prudent thinking about the project, and a resolve to hang the first @#$%& who suggests the line pass across his-her swamp.

[HappyDude813]

The argument over mass transit is an argument over the future of our area. Tampa has been growing fast since air-conditioning became affordable, auto-orientated development was praised, and no one had ever heard of New Urbanism.

Our past is about fact, our future is about potential. The residents of the Greater Tampa Area know that their area is a posterchild for urban sprawl. What will be interesting is if people are ready for or even desire an increased urban lifestyle.

The issue at the core of this is...do you believe in sustainability or sprawl? We are very fortunate to be behind the growth curve of cities like L.A. and Miami and can plan accordingly...are we doing enough to ensure we do not make the same mistakes?

Are people prepared to make the Greater Tampa Area able to grow...or just expand?

[Bud]

I can remember riding street cars in Tampa that took you anyplace you wanted or needed to go down town and if anyone has ever thought of a better people mover than a street car I haven't heard about it yet!!

[Bud]

I can remember riding street cars in Tampa that took you anyplace you wanted or needed to go down town and if anyone has ever thought of a better people mover than a street car I haven't heard about it yet!!

[Cliff]

I like the Monorail idea. If you do a search of existing monorail systems you will find that LasVegas has one. Here is their web site: http://www.lvmonorail.com/about/
It can go as fast a s 50 mph and is airconditioned. It is being expanded so it must be a good system.