The April 24 Chat Is Open

Okay, happy Tuesday and hello from fashionable downtown St. Petersburg. The April 24 chat is open -- post questions and comments to the "Comments" link of this post and I'll do my best to respond to them. Just keep refreshing the comments page to keep up with the latest.

So, is anybody there?

Comments

[Howard Troxler]

Hank Stansbury made a pre-filed comment:

re: The great property tax debate

Would it be possible to simply set the cap on a sold homesteaded house at 10% of the currently listed value of that house? Then limit any future increases to the Save Our Homes 3% maximum.

This would mean the counties would not revalue the home to the current ‘fair market value’ at time of sale but could still increase the value listed at time of sale by a maximum of 10% if such increase were warranted.

This would apply only to homes that had an existing homestead exemption on them at the time of sale, not new construction or sale of rental or vacation properties.

In that way if someone sells a home in Hernando the buyer could be assessed a maximum 10% increase in the Property Appraiser's currently listed value of the home taking the $150,000 value up to $165,000 rather than being adjusted up to what the Property Appraiser may decide is the ‘fair market value’.

The same scenario would apply if someone purchased a home in Nassau County. The sellers home could be value increased by a maximum of 10%, the buyer would apply for Homestead and fall under the save our homes provisions.

Now Hernando County could have a small increase but keeps at least the same revenue from the sold house and Nassau County has the same outcome.

There are no rollbacks, no service cuts, no job losses due to lack of funds in the counties and neither home buyer gets hit with a huge tax burden just because they bought a different house. There would also be no need to make any adjustments to the sales tax.

Anyone think this would work? Am I missing something obvious that would doom this? Would the impact on new construction be such that it would be a disaster? It just seems too simple.

[Samantha M]

What peaked your interest to make you research this topic? Was there one specific event?

[Howard Troxler]

Hank, your proposal addresses one of the many problems -- the "sticker shock" of buying a different house.

But it doesn't help non-homestead property owners, mom & pop businesses getting killed by taxes. Indeed it only makes the existing unfairness worse, because homestead properties would NEVER "catch up" with the market...

There's also the matter of what kind of revenue loss is involved; I can't tell you off the top of my head whether it would be more or less severe than the various ideas in the Legislature.

[Howard Troxler]

Hey, Samantha, what topic are you talking about?

[Ron]

Seems like valuing all property at current use and capping at 4-5% annual increase across-the-board solves the issue for almost everyone. I'm not gauranteed a 4-5% annual increase. Local government should be able to live with iths.

[Samantha M]

Your Troubled girls find direction at camp article. I write for Countryside High School's the Paw Print and recently did a story on violence in girls. I was wondering what about the subject made you want to research it?

[Ron]

My idea doesn't help me, however. I bought my house in Shore Acres in 1997. Taxes have prevented me from selling and buying a condo downtown.

[Howard Troxler]

Ron, indeed simply capping the growth of future government revenue would rein in the local government. On the other hand, non-homestead property would still be subject to unlimited tax increases while homestead would continue to fall further and further behind market value under the Save Our Homes cap, true?

[Ron]

I'm suggesting that we cap all property values, not just homesteads.

[Howard Troxler]

Samantha, I knew a guy who used to work for the Department of Juvenile Justice who had been telling me I needed to learn more about the situation and write about it... then he went to work for Eckerd Youth Alternatives and kept after me to go see it! It is just the tip of the iceberg of a huge subject...

[Will]

The senate plan does not address the basic inequities created by Save Our Homes and other exemptions to property taxes. We now have and will continue to have (if the senate plan succeeds) first and second class homeowners for taxation purposes. The longer you've been a homeowner, the less tax you pay. Now we make this portable and extend the problem. New home owners must subsidize the older home owners. Who would vote to do away with their exemption even if it was to make things "fair"? The house plan may seem radical, but it is the only way to "fix" a system that can't be fixed.

[Howard Troxler]

Ron: Ah, capping all valuations instead of gov't revenue, which protects everybody... that'd work, assuming we repealed Save Our Homes (3%) and gave everybody the 4-5 percent you suggest. Of course, the existing inequities are preserved, but perhaps in time they would fade... call it "Save Our Property" instead of just "Save Our Homes."

[Samantha M]

During your research was there any specific information that really caught your eye?

[Ron]

Will, There are plenty of ways to fix this without resorting to the ridiculous house plan. The sales tax increase being discussed is misguided (to put it mildly)

[Howard Troxler]

Will, I agree with you that the House plan -- if the constitutional amendment passed and local voters agreed -- would eliminate ALL unfairness among classes of homeowners, by eliminating ALL homestead property tax!

That still leaves everybody else subject to property taxation...

The Senate plan, as you point out, does not eliminate this unfairness, and in fact allows it to become somewhat "portable" with a new home. (The House, in a late concession, appears to be playing with some portability too...)

[Ron]

Some sort of phased-in portability is also needed. I really want to move downtown!!!

[Howard Troxler]

Samantha, it definitely opened my eyes that crime remains steady or is even up slightly among girls, while overall juvenile crime is down. Girls now make up a third of the people in the system... there are a lot of things to consider in that, first and foremost whether our goal is to punish them severely, or try to get them to save themselves!

[Paul Cooper]

Howard,
A recent Letter-to-the-Editor writer blasted folks who blame everything wrong in the world on developers. Since I've taken a few shots at developers myself in L-t-t-Es over the years, let's have some discussion. I understand and support progress, but when developers flaunt existing laws and our elected officials allow it, that's when I get upset. Recent examples: two condo projects on Beach Drive built out too far, so the city changed regs rather than taking action against the developer. Another recent example, one city body recommended against a developer building out to the lot line, another city body overruled and allowed it. How do other folks feels?
Paul Cooper

[Ron]

Howard, If you were King for a day, how would you address:

Gun issues
Property taxes
Insurance rates

[Samantha M]

What about education in the camp? Were there facilities for school or was it more of a private tutor in the outdoors type of setting?

[Howard Troxler]

On the tax question, there's also the greater philosophical question of what in our society SHOULD be taxed. Already in recent decades, we have moved away from taxation on wealth and investment on the theory it was the engine of the economy. Meanwhile, of course, WAGES get taxed...

Here the question is continued. Should we shift taxation away from property, and toward retail sales... which in Florida tend to be regressive in nature, since the more income you have, the more of it you spend on tax-exempt things... leaving paychecks and shoes and that sort of thing as what our society says should be taxed.

[Jim Johnson]

The ultimate answer would be to create a permanent SOH Cap that stays with all residential properties... Like Nevada does... it is constitutional and allows first time home buyers and those moving within Florida to have the same benefits.

[Howard Troxler]

Samantha, there were both intensive reading programs with an individual emphasis, and classroom settings for math, etc. -- I do not know where they stand about the FCAT, etc. -- ironically, public school systems tend to be leery of taking them back, in today's zero-tolerance environment.

Paul Cooper: I was struck by the argument in that pro-developer letter than if development halted, people would lose jobs. If our economy depends on overdeveloping ourselves, do we need to change the economy? And yet that requires a REALLY sharp philosophical decision that Florida will NOT grow in population as the U.S. does...

For all 25 years I have lived in Florida I have waited to see the "responsible growth'' that everybody promises. In my most cynical moments I doubt that local government is capable of requiring it.

[Jim Johnson]

(Oops responding to an earlier question)

For a tax base to be effective it has to be fairly predictable and safe from fluctuations.

A sales-tax based system works only if sales remain steady. (See 2001, Budget Reductions in).

[Samantha M]

As the Paw Print has not gone to print yet with my story would it be alright if I quoted you? I would use,
"Girls now make up a third of the people in the system... there are a lot of things to consider in that, first and foremost whether our goal is to punish them severely, or try to get them to save themselves."

[SJB]

I think we're all tired of out-of-control development. There is a glut of empty condos and office space in this area, yet weekly we read of project after project of $500,000 condos going up. Isn't there a way to rein that in, for instance tying permits to build to the vacancy rate number of unsold properties?
I'm really tired of being told I can't water my 30year old lawn when the very next story on the page is that the EDC has approved yet another dense development of some sort.

[Howard Troxler]

Ron:

Gun issues: Free ownership but like driver's licenses, with mandatory training, loss of the right for violent felony conviction.

Property taxes: All property taxed at fair market value henceforth BUT with rollback to pre-boom millages, and cap on ALL property value increases from here on, not revalued upon resale... artificial, I realize.

Insurance rates: Complete state takeover of windstorm risk, a la federal flood insurance (which itself is no picnic, but considered necessary). Let the privates do everything else and quit boo-hooing about how scared they are to be in Florida.

Whaddya think? Snap answers, probably many objections...

[Paul Cooper]

Howard,
You're a newcomer! Welcome. I'm a born-and-raised Floridian, so multiply your 25-year-cynicism by my 66 years, and you'll begin to feel my frustration.
Paul

[Howard Troxler]

Samantha, be my guest, I am honored!

Re: sales taxes: yes, in addition to the philosophical questions of what should be taxed, and regressiveness, there's also the teeny detail that they can fluctuate... hence another argument for broadening the "retail sales tax" to a 6 pct state tax on economic transactions including services... man, would the fur fly if somebody tried it though!

[Howard Troxler]

SJB, there is the age-old question of "private property rights" and equal protection under the law... land-use law in Florida and the entire process, in my opinion, is built in the direction of pre-approval. Often the REAL time for the public to show up is during generic "comprehensive planning" and zoning-map hearings, where there is no specific proposal to get people fired up. By the time somebody files a proposal that complies with the zoning map and the comp plan, the decision is mostly made!

[Samantha M]

Thanks so much! I'll be sure to send you a copy. Are the girls referred to the camp by parents, schools, or the authorities? Is the camp used as an alternative to getting a criminal record?

[Ron]

Howard, The idea of the State taking all of the risk worries me. I don't think the government should be in the gambling business (Including the lottery, but thats another topic.) What do you think of Nelson's idea of a national risk fund?

[Howard]

A simple thought from a simple taxpayer. Eliminate homeowners exemptions and land tax, raise sales tax 1.5%. Then put firm hold on Gov't. spending

[Howard Troxler]

Samantha: Of the 63 girls at that particular camp, 45 came from the Dept of Juvenile Justice's referrals (delinquency cases) and I believe the other 18 were foster children being cared for there for lack of an alternative. Some camps do, in fact, have "private customers" in the form of paying parents desperate to try to change their kids' lives.

Ron: Re state taking all the risk: Well, there are virtues to a national risk fund but much political opposition; everybody thinks they shouldn't have to underwrite "somebody else's problem." But somebody told me once that 49 of the 50 states are subject to SOME kind of natural disaster... one of the Dakotas, I think, was the exception... maybe just an urban myth.

[Ron]

It seems to me that the entire concept of insurance was to spread the risk across a large group. I also don't think that incurance companies should be allowed to create small, state-specific companies, then complain that the risk is too great and they need a rate increase.

[Howard Troxler]

To Howard: Hi, fellow Howard. Some level of sales tax would work, but even the House plan says it needs to be an extra 2.5 cents -- and that does NOT replace all the HOMESTEAD-only property taxes that would be eliminated.

Which raises another question, at what point does the sales-tax level reach a tipping point and kill us, tourism and economy-wise? I fear the effects would not be gradual... we already make tourists pay extra taxes with which we are paying off everything from Tropicana Field to... uh, lots of stuff.

[Samantha M]

How are the 28,660 applicants narrowed down to a meager 50 girls? Are there certain circumstances or characteristics that are looked for on applications? Who chooses the girls from all of the applications?

[Howard Troxler]

Ron: You have laid your finger upon the central paradox! The first time somebody invented insurance to spread the risk (for shipping, I think), the next guy immediately said: Here's why I should get to pay less than you!!

[Howard Troxler]

Samantha: I believe that juvenile judges have some discretion over where to send girls, and the worst offenses get the harshest treatment. The state has actually closed a couple of girls' facilities that were close to being like hard-time prison movies... Interesting cultural problems. For example, in boys' facilities, lights out means, lights out. But they kept having problems in girls' facilities -- until somebody realized nearly 100 percent of the girls had been sexually abused, and to them "lights out" was VERY scary. Solution: night lights. Is that "coddling" them, or adjusting to the unique cultural and social problems involved?

[Ron]

Howard, On a completely different subject.

It always bothers me when I read about a NY Times or USA Today poll result.
It seems to me that the job of the media is to report the news, not make the news.

As a member of the media, what say you?

[Howard]

Fellow Howard, I'm lost in the complexities of the whole mess. I live on a fixed income and do own my home(with a mortgage) so I try to take small areas of a problem at a time. Then work on the next thing. Thanx for the feedback.

[Howard Troxler]

Ron: Polls are so often misused and misunderstood in our society. I have taught a course at USF on contemporary issues and I always dedicate one class session to trying to shed some light on them.

I think polls can be useful tools for gauging public opinion, but there is a real "buyer beware" nature -- what was the question asked? Who was asked? Over what time period? What kind of sample? What kind of methodology?

And of course public sentiment can change rapidly on issues, depending on how they are framed. Public opinion can be changed; political professionals often are quite good at recognizing which buttons to push to change it!

[Samantha M]

But at the same time many boys are sexually abused now and days would the facilities they were housed in be quite so sensitive to their fears? And with this increase in violent girls will the number of members admitted to the camp each year increase at the same rate as girl violence? What about all of the girls who aren't accepted to the camp is it a too-bad-so-sad situation?

[Howard Troxler]

Samantha, you are quite right about some of the same issues with boys -- and with the overall capacity problem. The population at the particular camp I visited is not going to increase beyond a certain point. And it's expensive -- the amount the state allots is only a fraction of the actual cost... the kind of personal development those girls are getting (and which I believe is making a difference for most of them) is the high-end of the system.

[Howard]

Thanx for the input will think harder next time

[JC]

Howard, Could you tell me what remedy if any the Senate Bill proposes for property taxes related to owners of rental property? Thanks. (As you are aware, under the current tax policy it is open season on all rental property owners who have no cap whatsoever and cannot raise rents high enough to cover annual tax increases. In the past, the county maintained a decent distance between the assessed value and the value on the open market, but this is no longer the case!!!)

[Howard Troxler]

And Ron, re: making the news: I suppose that depends on the circumstance. The politician who is leading in the polls trumpets it as proof of his/her success; the one who is losing says the only poll that counts is the one on election day, and decries the media for not focusing on the issues.

[Ron]

Howard, I agree with you about polls. It is pretty easy to frame questions to get a desired result, but you didn't answer my question.

Is it proper that the media does the polling, then reports the results as news?

[Samantha M]

Was there a significant difference in the behavior and attitude of the girls who had just arrived and were new to the camp and those who had been there longer and were due to return home soon?

[Howard Troxler]

Other Howard: It sure looks like you were doing good thinking to me!

JC: The Senate bill does provide the relief of (1) a moderate rollback in existing tax levels and (2) an overall cap in the future annual rate of local government spending, so the practical effect is to create a cap on how much they can raise your taxes in any year. But there is no EXPLICIT cap on valuation for non-homstead property.

[Howard Troxler]

Ron, I do not mean to wimp out, but I think it's case by case. Let's say the Times publishes a poll saying right now most voters prefer Giuliani or H. Clinton... is that "making the news" or is it trying to take a snapshot of current public opinion?

Let's say we publish a poll saying, most people feel X way about Iraq, which "proves" the president is either failing or succeeding in making his case to the American people... I definitely want to know what question was asked, which makes all the difference.

Lastly I would caution that polls are transient and snapshots ONLY and a certain percentage of the time are dead wrong anyway. I dread the idea of policy-makers trying to craft policy to please the current poll ratings...

[Howard Troxler]

Indeed many PLAYERS in the political system try to use polls to "make news" in the sense of trying to say they have public support. At the risk of being self-serving, I can state the firm opinion that these interest-group polls are MUCH more likely to be quirky, biased and targeted toward getting a biased result than media polls.

[Alex]

To Howard Troxler: well said re polls should have a buyer beware tag on them. The problem is, there's a lot of people out there unlike you and I and Ron who don't think about the results critically, as you said you try to teach in your class. And I think that's what Ron might be saying. I competely agree: Polls too often mold public opinion instead of merely report it.

[Karen]

This sales tax solution better be thought through carfully. It might be just my imagination , but living in Clearwater I have already noticed a huge drop off of northern visitors just this year. A fraction of the Canadian tags on the road and if that doesn't scare people, it should. Working as an assistant in a real estate office I also see how many northern home owners have their homes (granted probably second homes) on the market. Not all, but a good portion of the glutt we are experiancing.

[Ron]

I agree with you 100% about polls. It is fairly obvious that most politicians do indeed craft their policies according to the polls. But it's not just politicians. There are a lot of lemmings in this world who vote according to the polls, as well. With the country slowly moving to a national primary day, I'm concerned that the pollsters will ultimately be able to influence the elections.

[JC]

Thanks Howard. Why isn't there any discusion regarding closing some of sales tax loopholes along with the rollbacks in property taxes rather than increasing the sales tax? Taxes on some of the more high end services would broaden the base making the total tax revenue collected less regressive than a wholesale increase in the existing sales tax.

[Howard Troxler]

Alex, indeed there is a "desired response" phenomenon in polling in which people tend to want to agree with the majority. I saw a study somewhere that polled people AFTER an election on how they voted... more reporting voting for the actual winner than really voted for him/her.

Re: biased polls: There was a funny example from a poll taken by a business group trying to fight citizen petitions (minimum wage, anti-smoking). The poll claimed a huge majority of Floridians wanted to crack down on their own right to petition. But the question was not made public. I got a copy of it later. The question was, "If you knew there were as many as 50 referendums on the ballot...'' would you support cracking down? Sheesh Louise! There have never been more than a handful of citizen petitions on the ballot at once...

[Howard Troxler]

JC: In general every loophole has a strong interest group behind it -- lawyers. Accountants. Advertisers. (Yes, the broadcast industry and most of Florida newspapers were strong opponents the last time we seriously tried to close loopholes in 1987 -- I am proud to say the Times supported it editorially, even though it would have affected us on the business side...)

[Samantha M]

Was there a significant difference in the behavior and attitude of the girls who had just arrived and were new to the camp and those who had been there longer and were due to return home soon?

[Alex]

Howard T: wow, that's a pretty scary example. Unfortunately, most people don't realize that a lot of polls are booby-trapped like that.

[Howard Troxler]

Karen, I agree with your point about the possible effect of high sales tax on tourism & the economy, as in previous comment -- I don't know if there is any serious data or look at the tradeoffs involved, but at some point I know that I get ticked off about the difference between published hotel rates and what I end up paying -- especially if it's a discretionary or pleasure trip.

[Howard Troxler]

Samantha, DEFINITELY a difference in attitude! Most girls told me they came to camp angry and defiant, and intending to fake their way through it -- but soon enough they were taking part in the group and being honest emotionally. The group model of cooperation, it seems to me as a layman, is incredibly effective.

[Paul Cooper]

Re: Ron's concern about a national primary day, I've long felt there should be such a day. Furthermore, I feel the playing field should be leveled by every state operating by the same rules. Right now there are binding caucuses, non-binding caucuses, open primaries, closed primaries, and they're on so many different days, who can really tell what's truly the will of the electorate? My feeling? If we're going to operate on a party system, primaries should be closed to party members only. Thanks.
Paul

[Alex]

Karen: I am big on tax cuts, but I agree with you: as much as I would love to wave bye-bye to my property-tax bill, I fear shifting the entire burden to the sales tax. We (Floridians) would basically be dependent upon non-Floridians for our public services, yes?

[Alex]

Sorry, that last comment left out the obvious revenue taken in my Floridians' spending as well. My point though, is that we depend upon tourism alot in this state.

[Samantha M]

Is the camp a pass or fail? Is there a time limit for girls to stay? Are girls transferred out of the camp if they don;t seem to be responding to the camp's method of reform?

[Howard Troxler]

Paul, interesting debate about national primary day. It would tend to lock in the existing "snapshot" of candidates which sometimes changes dramatically in the drawn-out, rough-and-tumble existing process. I kinda like the idea of a series of formalized regional primaries, still creating a series of hurdles that a candidate must pass as a proving ground. On the other hand, at the state level we take that "snapshot" routinely in primaries, whoever is winning at the time wins!

[Howard Troxler]

Re sales tax: I forget the figure, but some significant percentage of sales tax is paid by non-residents... something along the lines of 25 percent, a third... but of course that proportion might change if we raise taxes high enough? At least, that's what I have heard argued by my tax-cutting friends for many years, that taxes reach a punitive level and the curve turns.

[Howard Troxler]

Samantha, it's not pass-fail, and there is not a fixed time period or "sentence." Girls move toward going home when the camp judges them ready; typically the stays are 12 to 24 months. There is some controversy here; some say there ought to be a firmer and more definite system in place, but the "sentencing" model is somewhat different from the "rehabilitation" model.

[JC]

It is pretty scary that some of the least populated states ultimately decide who the candidates will be. I like the "lock in" idea so we have more candidates to choose from rather than acting as a rubber stamp! Some of the more populated states ought to have more of a say early on.

[Alex]

Howard T: Yeah I don't know... I think it's scary to depend more on non-Floridians to subsidize our public needs. Like I said, I like the idea of no property taxes, but I think the risk is too high. Spreading the risk out is better. Isn't that what they tell us to do when investing?

[Samantha M]

Thank you so much for your time, but I am late for class! Haha. All of your information has been very helpful and I will be sure to send you a copy of the issue.

[Howard Troxler]

Samantha, thanks and I look forward to seeing it.

[Paul Cooper]

Rough-and-tumble wouldn't be eliminated -- and neither would be candidates who now drop out after one or two primaries or caucuses. For example, I'm guessing that my favorite right now won't even be around when the Florida primary happens. With a national primary day, everyone could stay in even with limited funding.

[Howard Troxler]

Paul, when I was the Times political editor covering a national cycle (96), it was frustrating to spend so much time learning about the merits and demerits of so many candidates, for the purpose of informing Florida voters about them, only to have most of them dorp out after Iowa, New Hampshire and South Carolina...

[Alex]

Howard, I know we're almost done here, but I would like to hear your opinion on the state of public schools in Florida. Should we bring vouchers back? Does the state have an obligation to step in and help parents? What can we do to improve the quality of our schools? No more county-wide districts? Other thoughts?

[Paul Cooper]

Good point. Now, here's mine. Bill Richardson may be the most experienced and most qualified announced Democratic candidate, but he lacks "star power" and a war chest. I may never get the chance to vote for him. With a national primary day, I would.

[Howard Troxler]

Oh, a nice simple question on schools. The single most consistent predictor of achievement, I have heard for my whole career, is degree of parental involvement. Where it is lacking, the question is whether (1) we can create it or (2) we can make up for it.

Without question, the Bush emphasis on standardized testing has produced improvement in the ability of students to take those tests. In my lay judgment that approach has not emphasized enough well-rounded curriculum and thinking skills; the pro-test argument is that we have to start somewhere and reading and math were pretty good places to start...

[Bruce Cotton]

Man...coming in late really keeps you reading...LOL

On property tax plans. I agree with Jim about the sales tax option. Our economy would be too dependent on sales and in times of economic downturn every county would suffer, smaller ones far worse than large ones.

I don;t think it would have a dramatic affect on tourism. Orange County's tourist tax on rooms is already at 11.5% and people still come for Disney/Universal/Sea World etc... What would hurt is another large hurricane, not only would our insurance market collapse, state and local revenues generated from sales taxes would plummet for some time.

Presidentail Primary: I think we needa primary month as opposed to a primary day, with 3-4 primaries held every Tuesday in the month ( most likely Feb or Mar.). A single day national primary means most candidates will have to bypass less populated states to concentrate on the states with the higher number of electoral votes. national day puts lesser known and lesser financed candidates in a bad spot of not being able to compete or get their message out because the front runners will buy out all the media in the larger media markets.

Using an entire month of Tuesdays gives all candidates more chances to be tour the country and spread out their dollars and keeps the smaller states in the mix.

[Howard Troxler]

Paul: That's true, seems to me. The counter-argument is that in their gross entirety, the existing primaries create, haphazard though it is, some sort of proving ground to weed out the candidates who have failed to generate enough support (financial, organizational or ideological) to survive in the harsh marketplace.

I myself have been guilty of paying more attention in local races to the candidates who were more "serious," and less to long-shot outsiders (I am talking about REALLY long-shot outsiders) who perhaps mean well, but don't have a prayer of winning. It is an interesting question as to whether we ought to let everybody sit at the table, regardless of their "ante," and say we will hear everyone regardless of their demonstrated strength. Which is more "democratic"?

[Paul Cooper]

Bruce's primary month idea has merit vs. my primary day idea. As long as they're all operating under the same rules.

[Howard Troxler]

Paul, what do you think of Bruce's suggestion that the national day actually puts lesser-known candidates in LESS of a desirable position, since the ones with the most money and resources are most able to compete at that scale?

[JC]

I agree with Howard that parental involvement is key. Parents who value education have children who value education. Pinellas county does very well working with the periphery (honors kids and challenged kids), but needs to find ways to stimulate the middle group of average kids who can given appropriate stimulation become part of the college or trade school bound.

[Bruce Cotton]

That's the kicker for any primary idea is uniformity...we have 50 states all wanting to be the "THE" state that decided the presidency. Until the state parties can get over themselves and work together we are destined for a chaotic system for a long time.

[Paul Cooper]

Two comments, one to Howard and one to Bruce. Yes, Howard, I've wrestled with the "big money" aspect, but that holds true everywhere. Bruce, we're thinking the same way. Ain't it grand!

[Paul Cooper]

Two comments, one to Howard and one to Bruce. Yes, Howard, I've wrestled with the "big money" aspect, but that holds true everywhere. Bruce, we're thinking the same way. Ain't it grand!

[Howard Troxler]

We have a few minutes left... I wanted to say that we will probably do these online chats on a regular basis, albeit probably at 60 or 90 minutes... if we do them regularly, I imagine they will trend a little more toward immediate news events as well. Today we have certainly covered a lot of big-picture ground on taxes, insurance, juvenile justice, politics... not a single Anna Nicole Smith or Alec Baldwin comment among them! (Not that there's anything WRONG with that...)

[Alex]

JC, I wish I could say the same about honors kids with Pasco county. The experience with the honors classes that a family member had was that it was definitely NOT at a higher level of achievement, something you would expect from an honors class.

[Bruce Cotton]

LOL... great minds Paul, great minds...

[JC]

Alex,
I am sorry to hear that. In most cases the better educated and involved teachers typically teach honors/AP courses (so they can keep up with their students). Find a way to make it known and get the teacher reassigned!

[Howard Troxler]

I think our time is about up... any last words from anyone? I will put up a new post declaring the chat is over, but will leave comments open here for a while after.

Thanks to everyone for taking part, and keep an eye out for announcements of future chats!

Best wishes,
Howard

[Alex]

JC, if memory serves, it was an honors English class and the teacher was not even an English teacher! Go figure.