In Which I Am Called A Dolt, A Fat Windbag And A Slob (Although I Don't Think He Meant It Personally)

My Sunday column liked the state Senate's tax plan, a simple rollback of property taxes and a cap on future tax growth. I argued that reasonable property taxes are the price of civilization, and that the House's idea getting rid of homestead taxes altogether and increasing the sales tax is unwise. Most (but not all) readers continue to prefer the House's plan, with varying degrees of vehemence. Here's my favorite:

Hilarious--on one hand you have this dolt Troxler telling you how important it is to pay your inflated taxes. This fat windbags position is that the save Our Homes Cap is ruining it for everyone. In another article in the same paper on the same day, April 29th is a story about a Felon buying houses all over St Petersburg at inflated prices leaving behind foreclosures. Does this slob not see any connection between this felon and other flippers who have manipulated the market and inflated values? Do we need to remind him that people who have remained as residents through all this are not the ones driving up comps and taxes? I guess if you are with the Times though you love all the extra tax dollars flying around being put to ridiculous use. Need a trail, a park, an overpaid person on a planning council? Just ask..the money is there and the usual pigs are feeding. -- Charles

The ever-pointed James B. Johnson notes that the Save Our Homes cap has protected existing residents against getting socked for the cost of growth. He addresses newcomers:

It's my fault you paid 300 GRAND for a house that's worth 150 GRAND. It's my fault you moved here and created the need for more of everything. Twenty-five years ago you sold your Levittown house, you paid $10,000 for, for $250,000, and moved here. Your new house here cost $50,000 and you bought CDs with the rest, to augment your pension and social security. Today your kids are doing the same...retiring from NYPD or NYFD, selling the house for a MILLION, and buying a Florida cottage for 300 THOU....and buying Google stock. And those evil Cracker bandits are screwing you on your taxes.

Other excerpts:

Your column today was basically just a complete rehash of what you have already said two other times. I find it surprising that you have nothing better to add to the discussion when even your admitted to me that your readers do not support the Senate plan. Could it be that you are only allowed to relay the viewpoints of the Times and our Mayor and they just want to keep driving home how wonderful this plan is even when they know it does not have great support? -- Rich Knipe

As I see it local government is telling us to be careful what we wish for because if this passes and the citizens of Florida get their way we will see a decrease in services, especially in Police and Fire protection. This I find rather arrogant since the basic function of government is to protect the people that provide government the finds to do so. I am not looking for local government to provide me with another wonderful sidewalk (Riverwalk), or pay the bonds for an Aquarium. For this I will relay on the local business community and the private sector... Martin Saavedra Jr.

[I]f the cost of owning real property is reduced by cutting the taxes on it, then both residential and commercial real property become cheaper to own and rent out. The reduced renting/owning cost would reduce prices of goods and services throughout an economy. This would benefit everyone I can imagine, particularly the poor, for whom rent is perhaps their largest expense. -- Charles Matthews

Comments

[eriq]

Howard, obviously the key here is your definition of "reasonable". In my opinion it's not reasonable for the local government to take 2% of the value of my home every single year, keep in mind that this 2% is on the total value of my home and not my income at any given time. Those of us who purchased homes that were in our price range at the time are now living in homes valued at twice this price and paying taxes on that value even though we cannot sell them because of the slow housing market (and stuck because of the cap). This year my wife and I paid close to $25,000 to the local government in property taxes, this is almost as much as we paid in federal income taxes.

All together we paid close to two-thirds of our income in taxes this year.

I think this is "unreasonable" and obviously you don't, the Senate seems to agree with you and most Floridians agree with me.

[James B. Johnson]

Real conservatives get a bad rap with the tax issue, but real conservatives arent opposed to taxes per se. We want priorities and prudent spending. We want the most bang for our buck.

If education sits atop the priority pile, you fund education 100%. Ditto for cops and fire and whatever you decide on. You administer and manage these agencies competently and professionally....and you descend the list until the money is gone.

This notion is not some Einstein marvel. Everyone does it with their personal finances. You make the house payment, you make the car payment, you pay the electric and water and cable bills, and you fudge on the groceries or eat at McDonalds or Chez 7-11 if money is tight. Responsible people buy their beer and cigarettes and Lotto....last.

Government buys its beer & butts and Lotto first, then whines there isnt enough money for its teachers. And any pol who falls within this category, regardless of their party affiliation...isnt conservative. Theyre an idgit and incompetent stewards of the treasury.

I'm tired of being a milch cow for the pols and developers and every other band of pirates wanting to shake me down.

[James B. Johnson]

eriq

"Reasonable" means "is it possible-can it be done." THAT covers a lot of ground.

For most of us the government gets a little more than half of our income. When government gets greedy people lose their motivation to produce income. So the constant challenge for all pols is increasing their grab without you being the wiser. And then you get nonsense like what I read this morning: The Devil Rays and Bucs and Bolts are worth the millions because they unify us. Huh? Uh, no. What they do is make a few people a lot richer, and you and me aint in that group.

[Howard Troxler]

Howard here. Surely it is reasonable to roll current property taxes to the level back before the ridiculous boom in property values, and limit the revenue growth for each year after that to some formula linked to inflation (CPI) and actual growth?

What has happened is that just because property values have gone up, say, 20 percent a year, local governments have increased their revenue intake by a similar amount -- that seems unreasonable to me. Government will always spend what it has. I agree w/ the idea of a cap and Mr. Johnson's scenario of tough decision-making.

Seems "reasonable" to me... :)

[James B. Johnson]

Howard
My daughter built a new house in 2003 for 150 GRAND. She sold it in 2005 for 300 GRAND. Do the math. That's 100% in two years. And it was not my idea of a great house AND, so far as I know, no gold has ever been mined in Kissimmee. In my humble opinion, GatorLand is ALL Osceola County has going for it.

The idea that a fool and his money can jack-up taxes for everyone is absurd and obscene. The county gets a big bag-o-gold in the short term and everyone gets hurt in the long run. Plus all the buyer's remorse and whining about how "it aint fair."

I'm not advocating tough decisions or tough love or tough noogies. I'm advocating getting our priorities straight, funding them adequately, and letting the bronze sculpture and riverwalks and parking garages for judges and choo-choo trains go.

[Howard Troxler]

So we kind of agree, right? Property taxes should NOT go up at the same rate as crazy property values -- they should be capped. In addition they should be rolled back to pre-ridiculous-boom levels and capped retroactively. The additional question is whether to eliminate all homestead taxes & swap out for sales taxes...

Didn't mean to offend with "tough decisions" and I cheerfully amend it to "setting our priorities straight."

[Ron]

Erig is full of it. There is no way the taxes on his property went up by more than 3% each year since he bought it, unless it is not his primary residence. If this is a second home and he is paying 25K just in property taxes, then he doesn't need such a grand second house.

[eriq]

Howard, my problem with Senate plan is that a 10% cap is not much of a cap at all, it's 4 times the inflation rate. Any rollback the Senate plan would implement would be negated within 2 years. I don't much care whether or not we swap property taxes for sales taxes. I think Crist's plan is much more reasonable although I think the rollback should go to 2001 and there needs to be restrictions on how much local governments can raise our taxes going forward. This must include impact fees, property assessments, millage rates, etc. If there is any loophole included in whatever plan comes out then you can be sure local governments will waste no time exploiting it. For instance, I just read this weekend that Pasco (i think) county has already doubled their impact fees on new construction to $9500, guess who's going to pay that...

Ron, there's no need to bring class warfare into the discussion. The implication that if I have enough money to invest in a couple rental properties than I somehow deserve to get "soaked" doesn't advance the discussion. The bottom line is that regardless how much property I own, it's still unreasonable for our local governments to tax me at a rate that doubles every 5-6 years.

[Ron]

Erig, This isn't about class warfare. You claimed in your original post that your house taxes went up. Now you claim it's rental property. That's a different animal. I was just pointing out that your homesteaded property could not do what you were claiming. If your rental property taxes are more than you can afford, then sell it. Seems simple enough. I agree that the current tax system isn't fair, but it is the same tax laws that were in place when you bought the property.

[MARION OYSTER]

HOWARD
BECAUSE OF MEDICAL BILLS WE HAD SELL OUR HOME IN PALM BAY AND BUY A CONDO IN PINELLAS PARK. TAXES AT CLOSING $350. NOW IN 2006 TAXES $2,066 ON OUR SOCIAL SECERITY INCOME WE HAD TO DEFER THESE TAXES. SENIORS ON FIXED INCOMES NEED HELP NOW.

[MARION OYSTER]

HOWARD
BECAUSE OF MEDICAL BILLS WE HAD SELL OUR HOME IN PALM BAY AND BUY A CONDO IN PINELLAS PARK. TAXES AT CLOSING $350. NOW IN 2006 TAXES $2,066 ON OUR SOCIAL SECERITY INCOME WE HAD TO DEFER THESE TAXES. SENIORS ON FIXED INCOMES NEED HELP NOW.

[eriq]

Ron, gosh if it's simple why didn't I think of it? you think i'd hold on to this property if I felt I could sell it? Have you looked at the housing market lately? I'd love to be able to sell these properties. For the record, when I bought them my taxes were almost half what they are today, in a market where your investments are doing well if you can return 5-10% annually, a doubling of property taxes completely kills your margins and can put you in a serious cash crunch which is the case now.

[Harold Moore]

My wife and I bought in an affluent area several years ago. Today, tearer downers are selling for over half a million. Since we've lived in the same house all this time our taxes are less than $2500. If someone were to buy our house, they would pay over $13000.
Although we've considered moving, the math tells us that a home half the size, in a less desirable area would cost us considerably more that our current housing expenses. Staying put is a no-brainer.
We also own a condo downtown that we rent out. There is no cap and the taxes recently doubled to $4300, although the market value of this property is less than half the value of our home. Problem is, between the taxes and the increased cost of insurance (another $71 bucks a month in the maintenance fee) on top of our small mortgage, we're hard pressed to rent it at a profit.
We're among the very fortunate, because the house is paid for, and the condo is nearly. Because of the housing bubble bursting, especially as it relates to condos, we can do nothing but sit on our property. I feel sorry for the people who bought at the top of the bubble with risky mortgages and now are finding costs going up and values coming down.
Florida is no longer the real estate shangri-la it once was.

[Howard Troxler]

Mr. Moore has a perfect illustration of some of the effects of the Save Our Homes cap. His residence is protected against tax increases, with the level of that protection increasing every year. The downside is that longtime homeowners who might otherwise want to buy a different house become "trapped'' -- they can't buy a new house without getting absolutely killed on taxes.

I have heard some folks say, "Well, aren't they also making a huge profit on the sale of their original home? Maybe so, but they're also having to put it back into today's values if they are buying another house, and then paying a lot more in taxes to boot.

Hence the idea of "portabilty," or letting people carry their existing level of tax break over to a new home...

[eriq]

either that or get rid of the cap altogether and just reduce everyone's tax rate and cap how much the local governments can raise taxes every year. the cap is just a band-aid on a much larger problem of over taxation.

[James B. Johnson]

Let's also consider that Florida's state budget increased from 47 Billion in 2002, to 72 Billion now.

THAT works out to $4800 per person with a population of 15 MILLION, and $4200 per person with a population of 17 MILLION.

The median family income in Florida is about $50,000.

However you play with the numbers, the state is shaking its citizens down for some serious loot.

[James B. Johnson]

I want to throw this tidbit in: The state subpoenaed me 4 times to testify in a criminal case. The courthouse is 32 miles from my house. I dont get paid when I dont work, so I lost 4 days pay.

All the state is obligated to pay me is $5 a day for my time, and 6 cents a mile for my travel. I checked the state law.

Now I'm subpoenaed to testify again, and alerted to make myself available for one full week.

[Georgia Transplant]

With all this discussion about taxes. Why is there no discussion about a State Income tax. In my opinion, it is the most fair way to collect taxes. Property taxes by definition only effect those that own property. Sales tax is overly burdensome on the poor. State income tax is the answer - tied to a reduction in property taxes.

[Jim]

I had problems with the county last year coming in and valuing a dock for 3 times what I paid for it, it is fraudulent and ILLEGAL.... guess what they also were taxing me for a pool in my yard that didn't exist.. hadn't seen a refund from 2001 yet, guess I'll have to sue instead of asking for a refund.

also, my neighbor just spent 8000 dollars to get a boat lift in, appraiser came in and tried taxing him 40,000 value on it... then the assessor tries justifying his position.... PINELLAS ARE THEIVES, they could care less about the citizens here and many of their leadership needs SERIOUSLY to be fired!!!!!!!

[Jim]

Check your tax records people... PINELLAS is STEALING from you!!!!!! this is worse than shoplifting... where are the fines on these Pinellas authorities for ROBBERY! Make it happen! WAKE UP PINELLAS!

[James B. Johnson]

Georgia
We have no income tax here because Floridians know how these things work. The US Income Tax was created to skin the fat-cats, plus the promises that the Income Tax rate would never-ever rise above 1%.

We dont want to go THERE is the simple answer. We're not opening THAT door to the pols.

[James B. Johnson]

Jim
"Pols are thieves" is the correct answer.

Actually, "thieves" is a tidge harsh. So let's say that pols harvest their constituents. Think of yourself as a crop or commodity that a pol can get an income from.

Assessments work both ways for pols. If you improve your home they jack up the taxes. If your home deteriorates into squalor it becomes attractive for confiscation via eminent domain when the value is low enough.

The latter is the method behind the madness of ghettos. That is, select a neighborhood thats ripe with economic potential and turn your head while the thugs and deviants and social workers (insane philanthropists) destroy it.

When their work is complete, condemn it all, buy it for pennies on the dollar, and sell it to your political supporters to develope.

[James B. Johnson]

As I predicted, the legislature isnt up for real tax reform this session. Too many of us believe we can keep what we have without cooperating for the common good.

The longer the issue exists, the more we'll feel the effects of what I call Johnson's 2nd Law of Political Dynamics. Political entropy will attract the elements of crisis until we get a doozie (the word is really Deusey...from Deusenberg the car) of a crisis. If you neglect a problem long enough it will become a crisis.

Thats where we're headed. I dont know if Charlie Crist wants to become known to posterity as Florida's "Herbert Hoover," but this may be his legacy. Hoover, if you recall, fretted away his time with trivialities while the stock speculators ruined the economy.

[eriq]

we seem to be spiraling into lunacy in this thread. i think the main point that needs to be made here is that property taxes are; 1) too high and 2) rising too fast.

the simple solution is to lower the tax base back to the more reasonable levels of 5-6 years ago and then make sure that they cannot be raised so quickly in the future.

my fear is that the legislature will do the former without addressing the latter and we will be back in this position in a couple more years.

[James B. Johnson]

eriq

Yes. They will.

Expect to get a temporary band-aid.

Unless and until the People flex their muscle the pols will take every dime from us they can.

[Jim]

This isn't new is it? Californians were getting screwed big time.... before the pressure for the new rules.

These sorry Pinellas thieves should get "no more" than basic cost of living increases, not 500 million increase in one year... pigs is a good reference for our local Pinellas officials.

WAKE UP PINELLAS

[D R]

GEORGIA TRANSPLANT,

THIS POST IS KINDA LATE BUT STILL - WHERE DO YOU THINK RENTAL PROPERTY OWNERS GET THE MONEY TO PAY THE TAX ON THEIR PROPERTY - FROM THE RENTORS YOU DOLT!!!! AND SINCE THERE IS NO CAP ON RENTAL PROPERTY THEY PAY PLENTY. I DO AGREE WITH YOU ON THE STATE INCOME TAX THING.