Here's The July 17 Chat: Read A Transcript

Today's edition of the weekly live chat here on TroxBlog included exchanges about...

* The decision to cancel public-access TV in Pinellas

* The effect of budget cuts on our state universities

* Whether the Times has censored its archives because of pressure from a big-shot law firm (answer: no)

* The merits of the Devil Rays game announcers

Oh, we also got into a side dust-up over whether a member of Congress was out of line in making a comparison between the Bush Administration and Nazi Germany,  which is a little out of my state and local field. I didn't have too much taste for it, though, and asked folks to knock it off once we got into the who's-more-like-which-Nazi game.

To read a transcript of today's chat or to add your own thought, just click on the "Comments" link of this announcement.

Thanks to everybody who took part, and I hope to see you again at next Tuesday's weekly chat!

Comments

[Howard Troxler]

Let's start with a pre-filed question from Sal Reale:

Congressman Ellison's despicable remark that compared President Bush with Hitler has not been reported in the Times, yet The Telegraph (London, UK) has. I have notified the Times through a letter to the editor, that also has not been published. I've previously spoken with Galley about why they don't publish any of my letters. His comment was I'm too strident. Aren't Dowd, Rich, Krugman, the Times editorial board, and others strident? Yet their columns are printed. Why don't you as an elite member of The Times investigate their policy of Liberal and Unbalanced?

[Howard Troxler]

Dear Mr. Reale:

If a U.S. congressman compared the president to Hitler, that does sound out of line to me, but I don't know the context. And if one of our own members of Congress did it, I would probably comment on it, in my role as a metro columnist who writes mostly about state and local affairs. As for the editorial page, it is probably much to our mutual relief (mine and theirs, I mean) that I don't work for those folks, which means they can neither be blamed for the stuff I say, nor vice versa.

[Sherman Dorn]

Hi, Mr. Troxler! I know you've been busy with writing about the great Gummint decisions in Pinellas County for the last few weeks, but I'm curious what you think of the impending budget cuts in the state.

(Disclosure: I'm the faculty union chapter president at USF this year, so I'm naturally biased. When the universities chancellor notes that a 4% cut to the university system budget would match the budgets of all the history departments and law schools in the system as a whole, ...) (The chancellor's presentation slide PDF is at http://www.acad.usf.edu/News/2007-07-03-Update-On-Issues/docs/Presentation-by-Chancellor-Rosenberg-July-10-2007-1.pdf.)

Our group SOS... Save Our Station...
wants to save Access Pinellas.
County documents from their own site clearly state that Access Pinellas is funded by cable access fees.
This is not about saving taxpayer money. It is a free speech access to broadcast issue that goes back to the 1930's.

[Howard Troxler]

Hi Sherman Dorn, and thanks for the comments! One difference is the state budget cuts are being driven by a natural falloff in revenue, as opposed to the local cuts, which are being ordered by the Legislature to cut taxes.

Still, a cut is a cut. The universities would be better off if this lawsuit against the Legislature prevails, and the Board of Governors becomes truly able to operate the university system and set tuition -- like the voters amended our state Constitution to say.

Not to keep praising the editorial page too much (oh, come on, I love those guys), but they have written several really strong and good editorials about what this state's universities need. I supported the constitutional amendment and I think this lawsuit is a good idea.

[Howard Troxler]

Dear 12:07: Thanks for the comment. One issue here is that the county is proposing to cut ALL public access, not just the shows it doesn't like, so there isn't really a content-based discrimination, which would clearly be a First Amendment violation.

As to whether there is a First Amendment right to have a public access station itself, I kinda doubt. If I understand correctly, the contract requires the county to support educational, public 8 government kind of stuff, but I don't know that it specifically requires them to have Pinellas 18...

[Sherman Dorn]

I saw (and appreciated) the strong editorial on university governance and financing. There actually is a way to preserve existing programs, at least for the universities, because the state budget includes $115 million in general-revenue funding for new programs (so-called centers for excellence that would be selected by a competitive process and a few other things), and a 4% cut would be just about $100 million. I suspect the state Supreme Court will rule in favor of BOG control, but the next 12-18 months could be dicey. If the legislature cuts the centers of excellence, we won't have to go through faculty layoffs. It would still be painful, but I don't think students should have larger classes, fewer course offerings, and longer waits to see advisors to fund programs that don't yet exist.

[Howard Troxler]

Gary made this pre-filed comment about my column today, about Pinellas County shutting down its public access cable channel while preserving the government channel:

When watching Pinellas 18 BCC meeting, it was mentioned the budget for Pinellas 18 was $4.2 million. The budget for Access $349,000. The director was asked why the buget had increased from $2.3 million in 2002 to the current $4.2. She said a department from this building with 10 employees was put into her budget.
But the truth of this situation is big business is shutting down Access channels all over the country in an effort to save money on broadcasting and eliminating the franchise fee that go with it. In Pinellas, they rolled the franchise fees into the "communication service tax" so they will continue to get the funds. Shutting down Access will NOT decrease your taxes.
In the past few years, they also funneled the fees into the general fund so the funds could be used for other purposes instead of for their original purpose: public access TV. Kinda like our Social Security money. Read between the lines you'll see this plan of eliminating the Access Channel has been going on for years and is being promoted under the guise of budget cuts. Lets face it. The county's budget income has gone up over 100% in the past few years because of the property value tax increases. It just proves the government will spend every cent you give them and more. Also remember that once they get your vote it goes from "We the People" to "Me the People."

[Howard Troxler]

Dear Gary,

That $4.2 million, or something in that ballpark, refers to the overall Communications Department budget, of which Pinellas 18 is $1.1 million. (Access Pinellas, the public access channel, has a budget of about $350,000, which would be eliminated under the proposed budget cuts.

You're right -- the franchise fees that we cable customers end up paying are rolled into the government's general fund. And if public access is eliminated, that doesn't mean we're getting a refund; the cut is being proposed to keep the government TV station as intact as possible.

Again, I think it's a good idea to broadcast public meetings and such. But Pinellas 18, like lots of government-run stations, ends up as a vehicle for glorifying and publicizing elected politicians. I was joking with the county's communications director yesterday -- she was rightly pointing out there's plenty of valuable public service on the channel -- that I would support her if she promised never to air the face of another elected official in anything other than a meeting broadcast.

[Michael Bagby]

Instead of evenly distributing the cuts among all three divisions of cable access (PEG - Public Education Government)... The communication department led by Marcia Crawley determined that "Public" is completely expendable. Hence, the pink slips have already gone out at the AP studios. 2 of the 4 A.P. employees are being "hired" by Marcia and the government channel. It's a shell game.
No plans were allowed to be developed for a "cheaper" version of Access Pinellas. As of 9/30 no more public access to cable subscribers. Our group - SOS and PCTV - has been working hard to let the commissioners know this is not acceptable.

[Howard Troxler]

On universities, let's see, the choice is between even larger classes, even worse instructor-teacher ratios, or cutting somebody's pet project... well, no question in my mind what their first choice would be...

[Pablo]

Sal says Ellsion "compared President Bush with Hitler." I've listened over and over again on Live Leak to Ellsion's comments. What I understand him to be saying is that 9/11 gave our president the ability to do whatever he pleased. I don't hear him accusing the president of being involved in a conspiracy. So what I infer, and it's not Ellison saying this, is that an example would be invading a country that had nothing to do with 9/11 and then allowing the myth to be perpetrated and perpetuated that the opposite was so.

[Howard Troxler]

Dear Michael Bagby,

As I said in the paper this morning, I think it's a heck of a thing that the County Commission would keep intact its own, glorfiying mechanism while cutting public access totally.

I watched a few of the shows, which are available online, and also watch 'em on TV now and then (because I am a nerd). It's downright comical how often they interview county commissioners, use them as experts, portray them in various feature stories, show them helping little kids, touring parks and nature preserves (nature preserves, whcih they want to develop for utilities!), etc...

[Howard Troxler]

Dear Pablo, thank you for the comment. I don't know Ellison's words but in the past there has been sort of a mushing-together of the acts of "comparing X to Hitler" and making comments about the events and trends that gave rise to fascism in Germany. EVERY comparison to prewar German politics is not "comparing to Hitler...''

[Howard Troxler]

Although for me, I try to avoid Nazi Germany references when there is another one possible, since it's such a third-rail thing. Goebbels was not the first one to attack opponents of a war as being unpatriotic, after all.

[Howard Troxler]

Earlier today I had this exchange of posts with Chris Cleary:

Here's a question for you. Why is it that any mention of Fred Grady and Holland and Knight has been scrubbed from the archives after the Times ran one article on his ridiculous threats against a Tampa Little League outfit?
I went to get the article and it is gone, no ability to pull it up at all.

Is the Times being pressured?

Dear Chris:

The story is there in the archives -- I just looked it up myself via our public search function!

First, I searched on "Fred Grady" and it came up as the third item listed. I also searched on "New Tampa Little League" and it came up as well.

Sorry not to support the conspiracy theory. Be sure you are in fact searching the archives and not the current web site -- you have to click one or the other on the search box on our homepage, and I think "site" is the default.

Best,
Howard

[Michael Bagby]

Again, thanks so much for covering the issue. Feel free to email me. Candi Jovan and I have been interview by CBS radio, Fox 13 Craig Patrick (aired last night) and by WMNF today.
It's their document that in black and white states that Access Pinellas is funded by a fee to cable subscribers.
The whole country IS fighting to maintain access stations. We want to save our access.

[Sherman Dorn]

I could identify a few pet projects elsewhere in the budget (with the community colleges, there's $5 million slated for SPC's Government Institute, for example), but since the centers of excellence would be funding projects on a competitive basis, all that exists currently are dreams and ambitions for projects. It seems a natural place to cut, more politically feasible than other places, and the least painful.

Then again, it looks like "convenient cuts" are the theme of the hour.

[Howard Troxler]

Again on universities: The "centers of excellence" mission I cannot dispute, but it is an example of the trendy-idea thing in university and legislative politics. I have a selfish example -- as a grad student in history at USF, I can't believe such a big state university has no Ph.D. program in history. But it's run up against, among other things, the trendy idea that the universities should focus on "globalization,'' and any program has to fit in with that. There's been some pooh-poohing of the idea of studying anything so old-fashioned as mere "history," although I would argue that the study of history IS the study of globalization.

[Sal Reale]

If you and Pablo need "contect" about Ellison, her are the pertinent remarks printed in The Telegraph:
Addressing a gathering of atheists in his home state of Minnesota, Keith Ellison, a Democrat, compared the 9/11 atrocities to the destruction of the Reichstag, the German parliament, in 1933. This was probably burned down by the Nazis in order to justify Hitler's (Bush's, my word)) later seizure of emergency powers.

"It's almost like the Reichstag fire, kind of reminds me of that," Mr Ellison said. "After the Reichstag was burned, they blamed the Communists for it, and it put the leader [Hitler] (Bush, my word)of that country in a position where he could basically have authority to do whatever he wanted."

To applause from his audience of 300 members of Atheists for Human Rights, Mr Ellison said he would not accuse the Bush administration of planning 9/11 because "you know, that's how they put you in the nut-ball box - dismiss you".......

A convert to Islam who was previously linked to the extremist Nation of Islam, ....
He is an outspoken critic of the war in Iraq. .....
After his speech was reported, Mr Ellison said he accepted that Osama bin Laden was responsible for 9/11. But his demagogic comments threaten to plunge him in controversy.

[Howard Troxler]

We're heading toward the half-hour mark of today's live chat -- what other topics would folks like to bring up? Now's your chance.

[Ethel Eckman]

Afternoon, Just curious as to whether all persons who have Citizens Ins. were personnaly invited for yesterdays "POW WOW". I read the St.Petersburg times daily and do not recall this memo!

[Hannah]

Dear Mr. Troxler,

First off, thank you for your excellent article. It's about time someone paid attention to this serious problem.

Yes, the County is planning to cut all funding for all Access Pinellas programming. I agree that there is not a specific content-based discrimination, but there sure feels like there is an overall discrimination against Freedom of Speech on public access television. Could there be something rotten in Denmark?

In Marcia Crawley's first presentation to the BCC regarding budget cuts, she stated that her desire was to increase communication among Pinellas County citizens. Commissioner Stewart's first response at that meeting was "do we need to keep Access Pinellas?" The Director of Communications was not even aware that Access Pinellas, which falls under her jurisdiction, was viewable in Clearwater! These proposed cuts to Access Pinellas do not represent a fair distribution of the 15% budget cut scenarios requested from the BCC.

We have been on the BCC's mind from the get go on these cuts. I find it unconscionable that franchise fees from cable stations earmarked for PEG channels can get funneled into general funds and then moved around at the Commissioners' whim. At what point in time did this shifting of funds happen?

Another point I want to raise is the Director of Communications repeated comments that public access should just go to the Internet. The Internet does not represent local programming. I don't see the Government channel rushing to cut their budget by broadcasting only over the Internet.

There is a core group of producers at Access Pinellas who have been working night and day to keep the voice of the people alive and well in this county. We are advocating, producing PSA's, and airing programming about this topic.

There are a lot of serious budget cuts that have been proposed. It's painful to read the list of cuts to those who are most in need. However, Access Pinellas should not have been included in those cuts, as our funding does not come from taxes, but from franchise fees.

Thanks for your time and effort.

[Sherman Dorn]

Since the Patel Center is funded by a gift, I'm not going to claim that it's a misuse of resources: it's certainly not the first time USF has tried to make a mark in international studies, and at least this time there are SOME resources attached. Yet on the importance of history to a major university, you're preaching to the choir here. Then again, I'm an historian (in the college of education; we're sometimes tucked away in professional schools). The history department at USF is particularly understaffed if you compare it to the size of undergraduate enrollment, let alone total enrollment.

When a university system is starved for funds over years (and the Times editorial had the best graph from the chancellor's data last week), something gets squeezed. At USF, it's the history department and several other things. But SOMETHING would be shorted inevitably in this process, and you'll find it in different places at other universities.

[Howard Troxler]

Thanks for the info, Sal! So it looks like Ellison was trying to imply, with a heavy hand, that President Bush used 9/11 to claim the same kind of emergency powers that the Reich did in a time of crisis.

Emotion aside, this seems historically wrong to me... the 1930s civil powers claimed by the Nazis go far, far beyond anything the U.S. gov't has done... the domestic surveillance is troubling, and the treatment of some detainees has been un-American, but most folks' daily lives have not been changed by the gov't.

[Michael Bagby]

Nationally, Public Access produces more programming than all major networks combined. It's the real reality TV.
Every religion.
Every creed.
Every crazy / sane / in-between / creative / caring group imaginable. It's people servicing their fellow people. Contact the county. Let them know. Thank you.

[Howard Troxler]

Hi, Ethel Eckman and Hannah, and thanks for speaking up.

Re: Citizens hearing: I am a customer and don't remember getting invited either -- maybe it was in something they mailed me and I just threw away, though. Still, it was not much of a turnout, according to the paper.

Hannah: I watched the video of that earlier commission meeting. Commissioners Stewart and Welch were the most vocal about Access Pinellas being the FIRST thing they wanted to cut... Welch also was the one who praised Marcia Crawley for helping to get Penny for Pinellas renewed.

[Sherman Dorn]

I'll agree that the comparison of 9/11 to the Reichstag fire is crass and inapt. On the other hand, I'm not sure it's that newsworthy; Ellison certainly isn't the first to make that claim, and if the Times had to report every incident where a member of Congress misused history, there'd be no space to report current events.

[Howard Troxler]

None of the Above made this pre-filed comment, not exactly enamored of the Pinellas County government:

Am I the only one that hears this…

The Steady Drip, Drip, Drip, of the Credibility of the BOCC and County Administration slipping away…

BOCC approves land purchase for Appraiser…

BOCC wants an ordinance to sell public lands without public input…

BOCC wants to use the Preserve…

BOCC buys land for parking on the beach that it cannot use for parking on the beach…

BOCC buys Blimp to promote just how good the BOCC is…etc

Big Deal…So What…More than likely the Incumbents will be re-elected and nothing will change, and for that matter Howard, your newspaper will undoubtedly RECOMMEND each and every one of the incumbents for re-election while ignoring any and all comers in the process.

[Pablo]

Sal is absolutely right that Ellison will continue to be controversial. I'm not defending him. I'm simply reacting to what I heard him say. I'm neither a convert to Islam nor have I had any links to the extremist Nation of Islam. I'm a Florida-born registered Democrat and a Christian. And I am indeed an outspoken critic of the war in Iraq. Many fellow veterans of the U.S. military join me in that criticism.

[Howard Troxler]

Dear None,

Yep, the land deal, buying the county property appraiser's own property, looks screwy -- we had a strong editorial about it this morning. In general I think the current administration has a "we know best" attitude and tends to want to punish citizens for getting in the way. No coincidence that after public outcry made the county back down on its plans to commercialize Fort De Soto Park, the county now wants to charge an admission fee...

[Howard Troxler]

By the way, now and then I hear from county employees who think I am too biased and negative about the government.

There are lots of folks working for the public working hard and doing a good job. I rarely criticize rank and file employees, but I do find lots of fault with the top management, particularly the County Commission and the county manager.

It's their JOB.

[Pablo]

Howard,
How about something light and fluffy for a change -- like a comment or two about "Ooze" and "Schmooze," the two multi-million-dollar restaurants going in on Beach Drive. I guess they won't be haunts for those of us who love El Cap and Coney Island.

[June Wallace]

Mr. Troxler, have you ever heard of Pinellas Village? It is a single-parent family residential community in unincorporated Largo, and the only one of its kind in the United States. The mission of Pinellas Village is to provide single-parent families the opportunity to achieve economic and emotional self-sufficiency through on-site and community-based resources and safe, affordable housing. There are other such programs but the others are two year programs; a single-parent family can live at Pinellas Village for five years, allowing them to get a four year college degree and get started with financial freedom before leaving the community. Pinellas Village was hit this year with a $78,000 INCREASE in their property insurance. Their entire budget is a little over $1M. I am Secretary/Treasurer of the non-profit Board and can tell you we are scraping the bottom each month to make those huge payments. NOW the property tax legislation has caused most of our grant funding sources to decrease their contributions or in some cases go away altogether. If we don't get some relief, we will have to close our doors and the current 115 single parents and their 223 children will be homeless. HELP!

[maddux]

great coverage on pinellas county government today trox. will you be doing a follow-up also on the welfare-to-work scandle a couple years ago when pinellas county fired rick dodge for whistle-blowing that event? the county must still be under investigation for the cover-up though they already settled the whistleblowing portion of the case for another huge sum of county (taxpayer's)money.

[Howard Troxler]

Pablo, hah! Did you ever go to that old joint on Beach Drive, he "Dysfunctional Family Restaurant"?

Downtown St. Petersburg has changed dramatically in the past few years. Part of me likes the newness and the people and the energy, the streets blocked off on Friday night, etc...

Part of me is not at all excited to see an eastern downtown lined with tall condo towers sitting on top of gourmet coffee shops.

I keep thinking that the slowdown of the market will naturally take care of the pace of St. Petersburg's growth...

[Howard Troxler]

Dear June Wallace, thank you for the comment about Pinellas Village. I will confess to you that I didn't know anything about it.

In ALL of these local budget cuts, however, I am growing increasingly cynical that gov'ts are looking to cut services to citizens whenever they can without making corresponding cuts in their own bureaucracy.

The city of Tampa is an exception; Pam Iorio deliberately instructed her department heads that she wanted to see top management positions among those cuts. But it's the exception, not the rule.

[Hannah]

Yes, Howard, that video of the BCC meeting showing Stewart and Welch's eagerness was something everyone should see.

I agree with your comments about County employees. The concerns about Access Pinellas are not personal. This is about government doing it's job of representing the people!!!

Thank you for paying attention! Let's hope others follow suit.

Hi! I would like to voice my agreement with your comments on Access Pinellas. I have taken their free training classes and they were amazing! What a great and deidcated staff and what a great community service. It would be a true shame for this to be cut. I can think of a thousand other places to cut funding. Call me concerned.

[Pablo]

Gosh, how'd I miss "Dysfunctional." Been here more than 30 years. Thought I'd hit 'em all.

[Hannah]

And we ARE using the Internet! :)

[Howard Troxler]

maddux, ah, you bring back fond memories with that county scandal! Perhaps Mr. Dodge should be reassessed in light of our later impressions of the county management?

Re: the Himmler comment: Oh, Lord, let's NOT start getting into which Nazi resembles whom. I arbitrarily put the kibosh on it, in Pinellas County-like fashion.

[Howard Troxler]

What other nice, light topics before we reach the end of our hour? Does anybody want to give me a line on tonight's Angels v Rays game? I understand them California guys have a good record...

[Angel]

Thanks for doing a great blog! You're the best!

[Sal Reale]

Howard,

I was prepared to ask you about the Rays, until I read Milan's statement. The Angels are good, the Rays are bad, but not as bad as their announcers.

[Howard Troxler]

Angel, thank you!

And, I mean it: No more Nazi stuff. You guys wanna get into a debate on who's a Nazi and who isn't, there are plenty of other places. I run a respectable state & local joint here.

[maddux]

Yes they should trox, Dodge was a bright spot in the otherwise bureaucratic draconian Pinellas Countygovernment. They fired him because they were afraid of him. He was a nice guy and always got results!- not a good fit for Pinellas county government, unless you want to make other gov. nazi's jealous. It's also funny how some of Dodge's employees were cut loose but Spratt and the county at that time bragged about noone losing their job in that 2003 extermination, I mean reorganization.

[Howard Troxler]

I kinda LIKE the Rays' announcers, although it's maybe that I'm just used to them. DeWayne and Joe are part of the household... or did you mean the radio guys?

At any rate, our hour is now past. THANK YOU for the good comments and variety of topics, and thanks to everybody who came by just to take a look.

Feel free to add your own comments later (although I am gonna keep an eye out for Hitler stuff). And I hope you'll come back next Tuesday for the next live chat here on TroxBlog.

[Carlos Milan]

A little levity is all I was hoping for in a world so full of unhappiness.

[Howard Troxler]

Dear Carlos:

Now, if you had said Col. Klink...

[20/20]

Good stuff, sorry I missed it this week.

[Schauer]

Sorry I missed it too. But too many people already think I am Sgt. Schultz I know nothing....