Here's the transcript of the Sept. 25 chat

In today's weekly live chat here on TroxBlog we covered a pretty good range of topics, including:

* Whether the optical-scan voting machines that I saw demonstrated this morning are an improvement over touch screens. We had some comments from counties that already use them and like them.

* What's going to happen now that a judge has thrown the "super homestead" amendment off the ballot. The news today is that the Legislature is going to appeal.

* Whether the Legislature will include no-fault auto insurance in its upcoming special session. Looks like the answer is yes, since there's a preliminary deal in place to extend it.

* Whether this Democratic election mess shows that we need a single, national primary election.

To read the transcript of today's chat, click on the "Comments" link a few lines below. You'll see what folks had to say, and a space for you to add your own question or comments.

As always, thanks to everyone who took part in today's chat or who stopped by just to take a look. I hope you'll come back for the next one...

Comments

[Karen]

Optical scan? Is ID that much of a problem?

[Howard Troxler]

A pre-filed question from Larry:

Howard, now a Judge has ruled that the proposed super homestead amendment is not clear and understandable. Do you think they will "fix it"? I believer that once folks understand the ramifications of losing that 3% value cap under Save our Homes, they will more clearly understand that
the policiticians, Governor Crist included, are only setting them up to get deeper in their pockets in
the future, once they can get rid of the cap. -- Larry

[Howard Troxler]

Hi Karen! Without question, using scanned ballots has one great advantage - there is a paper trail, a physical record of the ballot.

In most other ways, based on the demos I saw this morning, we're better off. We're talking about two-sided paper ballots with much, much opportunity for "undervotes." With a single ballot scanner in each precinct, more chances for backup and confusion. No chance (in 3 of the 4 systems) to review your ballot for correctness after the machine scans it...

[Howard Troxler]

Dear Larry: Timely question, as the circuit judge issued his ruling just yesterday. The governor today said he had no preference between appealing the ruling or putting something else on the ballot -- the Legislature has until Oct. 31 to do that, I believe.

The judge's ruling was pretty strong and I don't know how good the chances for appeal would be. Probably best for the Legislature to appeal while keeping open the option of drafting a new idea.

I don't buy the idea that "super homstead" was a secret plot to raise taxes. It clearly was intended by the Legislature to be a major, second tier of tax cut following this fall's first round. If anything, this ruling gives the Legislature a chance to come back with something even deeper.

[Howard Troxler]

Hey, Larry, and as I wrote that, I got an announcement from the Florida Senate -- the Legislature will choose appeal as its primary recourse, and still focus in the upcoming special session on its original purpose, cutting the budget.

He did NOT rule out putting something else on the ballot by Oct. 11, but just said, the focus of the session will be as originally intended.

[Schauer]

I cannot get up to Largo but isn't there a way to adapt the current machines to print out a two layered receipt. One for the voters and one to keep for back up. Like a cash register?

[Howard Troxler]

Schauer, there is no voter receipt in any of the four systems, only the original scanned ballot that drops into a sealed hopper beneath the scanner.

[Schauer]

Also is PIP back on the radar for the special secession?

[Howard Troxler]

I realize now that in my first comment on the voting machines I said "we are better off." I mean, better off with our EXISTING touch screens, with the one important exception of there being no paper trail.

[Schauer]

When and how will the decision be made? Is there a public hearing before a final decision?

[Howard Troxler]

On the PIP question, it seems much more likely they will do something, given that the House and Senate sides have struck an agreement to extend no-fault coverage and put some better cost controls in place. Someone will have to take an active step to screw up the deal... could still happen of course!

[Howard Troxler]

Schauer, some time before voting machine decision made and it should be well publicized. Elections office is still drafting its formal request for bids. The companies will have X days (not sure how many) to supply formal bids. A public committee will review them and make recs. The County Commission has to decide which to buy. And, of course, we know how PUBLICLY the County Commission makes decisions... whoops, couldn't help that, sorry.

[Brian Lupiani]

Hello from Tallahassee.

Howard, is there any chance that the Legislature will fund Kid Care (or whatever it's called) in the special session?

[Howard Troxler]

Hi Brian Lupiani, hello to Tallahassee from St. Petersburg. I am still ignorant of what the approaches are going to be in the special session, how much of a fight the Dems will put up and whether there's any chance on any number of things (higher education being another huge subject). I hope to learn more in the next few days... forgive me!

[Howard Troxler]

Here's part of a pre-filed comment from Pablo, on the Florida Democratic primary and the national party's refusal to count it:

Howard is calling for a system of rotating regional primaries, but I'd prefer to see a national primary day just as we have a national election day. Whether the primaries should be open or closed doesn't matter as much to me as a uniform date, although I'd prefer closed primaries so nominees would be selected by party members. I'm a
registered Democrat and I don't plan to waste my vote, but I've already emailed my favorite candidate and expressed my outrage at the boycotting of Florida by him and most other Democratic candidates during the campaign season. Anyone else as frustrated as I am about this? -- Pablo

[Dale Niemann]

Howard, what is your opinion of the priority that the Pinellas County Goverment is giving to aquiring additional small boat launching facilities?

[Pablo]

Regarding Howard's column this morning, our primary system is a mess. Some states have caucuses, some have primaries. Some are open, some are closed. Some are binding, some are non-binding. And the current stand-off between Florida and the DNC highlights the ridiculousness of the system. Howard suggests a rotating series of regional primaries. I'd opt for one national primary day, just as we have one national election day. Whether the primaries should be open or closed doesn't matter as much to me as a uniform date, although I'd prefer closed primaries so the parties would be selecting their nominees. I'm a registered Democrat and won't waste my vote, but I've already emailed my favorite candidate and expressed my outrage at him -- and most other Democratic presidential candidates -- for boycotting Florida during the primary campaign. Anyone else as frustrated about this as I am?

[Pablo]

Oops. Howard was posting an exerpt from my pre-filed comment as I was retyping the whole diatribe. Sorry.

[Howard Troxler]

Pablo, a single national primary does have the virtue of simplicity! Also, it would generate mega-interest, with the whole shebang being decided on a single day. Candidates couldn't just go pander to Iowans...

One argument for a series of staggered regional primaries is that they give the voters time to size up their candidates, watch them evolve and develop as the campaign unfolds. A single day's election is a snapshot; making a studied decision over a period of many considered weeks is better, the argument goes.

[Howard Troxler]

Hi Dale! This is an interesting issue about small boats -- I started to say "interesting little issue" except it isn't so little for those who own boats!

Seems to me that providing reasonable recreational access to the public waterways is a reasonable public function. I'm lucky enough to live in a city that has done a good job of it.

Key word there being "reasonable" of course... I'm not advocating the willy-nilly acquisition of private property to do it.

[20/20]

The current state of the Democratic Party at its actions reminds me of PETA. They go along just fine with some good ideas and agenda focus… then crash it with a move to protect rats used in laboratory testing to research cures.

This is exactly what the Republican Party has been counting on.

[Howard Troxler]

More on boating: Pressure is rising on recreational boating. We've lost a lot of boat slips as marinas have closed to give way to development. The cost of what's remaining has grown prohibitive. More pubilc access and more ideas like the offshore anchorage talked about in Gulfport are probably part of the future.

[Howard Troxler]

Pardon my "pubilic" misspelling. At least I remember to type the "l".

[Howard Troxler]

Dale, what do you think?

[Pablo]

Good grief, the presidential candidates from both parties have already given us so much time to size them up and watch them evolve that we're going to be sick of the whole mess when it comes time to vote!

[Elizabeth]

What do folks think about the upcoming changes to the price structure at St. Petersburg Parks and Recreation Department? They are going to charge $3 per adult and $2 per child to enter Boyd Hill Nature Park. Even a parent, just dropping by to pick up a child at a program, will be charged the admission fee. It will cost a family of 2 adults and 2 kids, $10 to enter the park daily. Oh,and then everyone is going to be required to buy an official city ID to use its facilities. To send your kids to camp will cost additional fees and families who do not live in St. Pete will have to pay an additional $160 fee. So much for low income families. This is just the tip of the iceberg… Maybe I'm wrong but aren't these additional taxes?

[Brian Lupiani]

On the topic of voting machines, I'm not familiar with y'all's touchscreen system or the specifics of the optical scan systems Pinellas is considering, but from our experience up here in the Florida Alps I just can't believe touchscreens would be the better option.

We've used the optical scan system for nearly 20 years as I recall and it's been great. Ion Sancho (The Best Dadgum Supervisor Of Elections In The Nation) recommended and implemented the switch from the old mechanical-lever-that-often-didn't-quite-line-up-correctly many years ago. I still miss the old clunkers, and I kinda hate filling in those little circles (I thought I was done with that after college) but you can't argue with success. If I recall correctly, in the 2000 general election there were only about 104 ballots out of 100,000+ that couldn't be counted. And to show why their intent couldn't be determined, Ion (TBDSOEITN) displayed them all on the SOE web site.

It's my understanding that the scanning machines can be programmed to spit out ballots with overvotes - I'm not sure about undervotes, but that would seem to be possible too.

(Sorry about the long post. I hope the chat's not over!)

[Howard Troxler]

Okay, while we were talking I asked somebody in Tallahassee who says that although the specific call for the special session has not been issued yet, it is expected to include the PIP issue. So, confidence is pretty high they will do something about it.

[Howard Troxler]

Elizabeth, thank you, and YES they are additional "taxes" in the broadest sense of the word. They are part of Mayor Rick Baker's deliberate strategy for making the small cuts required in the first round of property-tax relief passed by the Legislature.

After cutting payments to a couple of reserve funds, most of the rest of St. Petersburg's cuts $14m or so) came in the form of cuts in grants to various arts and social groups, increased fees for citizens, etc. -- some layoffs in the city's code enforcement department, but beyond that no real deep structural change in the government.

All of which was heartily endorsed by the St. Pete City Council, I would add.

[Dale Niemann]

I think access to all parks and boat launching facilities should be free because of the taxes we pay. However, that said, I am willing to pay for facilities if that's what it takes to acquire additional ones or keep up those that we have. I think $5 to launch at Anderson park is getting a little steep though.

[Jeff]

It amazes me that the state will spend,or consider spending,upteen millions of tax dollars to find "just the right type" of voting machine,yet deny pay raises to thousands of state employees.
Makes a lot of sense to me,especially since there is a hiring freeze,and we can't get more people in the office "to serve the people of FL"

[Howard Troxler]

Brian, thank you for the first-hand comment on optical-scan vs. touch-screens (I like Sancho too!).

You guys are Diebold, I believe (now called Premiere). The virtues of touch screen are that they warn voters of any undervotes, given them a visual chance to verify their ballot before casting, etc.

You're right, the optical scanners could be programmed to reject and warn on undervotes -- but with only one reader in each precinct, and probably a very high rate of undervotes (I would bet many folks don't vote in every race) wouldn't that create a horrible logjam at the polling place?

I will make it a point to ask the Leon elections supervisor first-hand, for the column I will write on this!

[dick dornblaser]

On the matter of the proposed super homestead amendment I found the residential calculator for it on the County Property Apprisers Web Site very useful and interesting. It can also check for surrounding properties. I learned enough for me to vote against the amendment; yet, I can see that some of my neighbors would profit and vote for it. Others would be confused because in the beginning they would profit, but a few years later would lose.
The calculators gives a 25 year projection.

[Howard Troxler]

Five bucks!!? I agree.

[Howard Troxler]

There were a couple of pre-filed comments on this morning's article about Ronnie Duncan, chair of the Pinellas County Commission. The gist of it was he got a letter about some reforms in the wake of the Jim Smith land scandal that didn't get passed along to the staff or his colleagues...

Alert Times readers can't help but wonder, after reading this morning's front-page article about BOCC chair Duncan's skulking around with documents, what else these elected (and probably all UNelected in November '08!), are hiding. We do have Sunshine Laws in this state, people! -- Lucia

How about the latest Pinellas BOCC (Duncan) revalation. These cats need some serious sunshine... and a boot in the rear... out the door of course.

[Howard Troxler]

Dick Dornblaser, that is exactly right, seems to me. Some benefit in the short term. Some will be confused. As Larry pointed out earlier, some will choose wrong and the government will get the benefit of the doubt by getting to take more of their money.

On top of that, all the calculations should be considered with the variables in mind. Assume a 7 pct annual appreciation, you get one result... in the huge appreciations of recent years, the benefit disappears much faster...

[20/20]

I still want to hear the answer to Commissioner Seel’s question; Why did the price drop to $225K. She was on to something, she may not even realize it, but she was.

[Howard Troxler]

On the Pinellas thing, given that chairman Duncan also was the signer of the county attorney's infamous waiver of conflict of interest, sounds as though he might want to work on his communications skills.

Many local gov'ts have, and I thought Pinellas did, something akin to a "reading file" where everybody can read everything that goes to the elected officials...

[Howard Troxler]

20/20, are you talking about that prime homestead site for which the property appraiser was asking $400,000 on the private market, or the piece of land that his office previously said was entirely unusable and worth very little? Oh, wait, it's the same land...

[20/20]

Here my take… A few years back, the BOCC increased Spratt’s approval authority to $225K. I believe that’s why the price was dropped; in order that it would slide by without notice. It’s good to know that someone was paying attention. It should have been the BOCC… turn’s out it was a Times reporter.

[Jonny Anonny]

Howard -- Does the fact that the referendum was removed from the Jan. ballot mean that the Legislature can do another rollback in the upcoming special session? Or does it just mean they can only tweak the language of the measure (and have it go back on the ballot)?

[Howard Troxler]

Schauer posted a pre-filed comment -- you can see it in the comments to the announcement of today's chat -- expressing deep disappointment with the national Dems' failure to do anything about Iraq. I would amplify it by pointing out they couldn't even vote for longer times between tours of duty last week.

But Jon Stewart said it best, saying night before last that the Democrats next are going to vote on whether to just give ALL their lunch money to the Republicans, or just most of it.

[Brian Lupiani]

Howard, I agree there's the potential for the problems you suggest, especially in large counties like Pinellas and Hillsborough. As far as I'm aware it hasn't been a problem here, but Leon's much smaller - about 250K(?) population, less than 200K voters - and I don't know if our machines have ever been programmed to warn/reject undervotes. Again, as far as I know there haven't been backlogs when feeding the machines.

I guess one solution would be to have multiple machines at the larger precincts. Early and "absentee" voting could also cut down on the crowds. Hey, wouldn't that be a great problem to have - too many people voting?

One great advantage with the optical scan systems is that there is a tangible, voter-completed paper ballot available for recounts by re-scanning or by hand.

[Howard Troxler]

Jonny, they can do either -- I do believe that Oct. 31 is the deadline for putting something on the 1/29 ballot -- 90 days I think.

Whether they just rewrite the ballot summary of the existing amendment, or pass something new altogether, it still has to pass the clarity test all over again.

But as I noted earlier, the Senate president just announced a little while ago that the Legislature's first course of action will be to appeal the circuit judge's ruling.

This seems right to me. No disrespect to the circuit judge, but if we're gonna have the judicial branch of Florida's gov't kicking the legislative branch's amendment to the state Constitution off the ballot, I am pretty sure I wanna see the Florida Supreme Court's name on it.

[Dale Niemann]

Please encourage everyone at your paper to continue clarifing the Florida Hometown Democracy petition in light of the confusion that its oponents are bringing forward. Keep it simple and understandable for all. I believe the people of FL should be able to vote on it so would encourage everyone to sign the Constitutional Amendment Petition Form.

[Howard Troxler]

Brian, absoLUTEly agreed on the advantage of having the physical ballot. (Hey, I need to check on something else I'm ignorant about -- they DID change the law back to allow physical recounts, didn't they?)

I am afraid multiple machines in each precinct would be, as they say, cost-prohibitive, but one of the company guys said some places do it that way.

[Jonny Anonny]

Schauer (and you) are being pretty unfair to the Democrats, who have put forth bill after bill after bill that was quashed by the Republicans in the Senate through procedural maneuvers. You need sixty votes in order to get anything through in the Senate, and the Dems don't have it. Thus the roadblocks to any meaningful legislation on Iraq.

[Howard Troxler]

Dale, thanks for the Hometown Democracy comment.

I am tempted to write a column listing all the arguments AGAINST Hometown Democracy -- to show that an argument can be made on the real merits, instead of this ridiculous, boogy-man misleading stuff....

At what price, Democracy?

[Howard Troxler]

Hey, in case you've been reading along and thinking about whether to chip in, there are a few minutes left in today's chat... come on in!

[Brian Lupiani]

My final words on the scanners: I think we've got Diebold/Premiere(?) touchscreens for special needs voters; I'm pretty sure the optical scanners are something like "Opti-Scan". (Real creative, huh? At least they're not part of the latest naming trend and going by "AmeriScan".)

[Howard Troxler]

Jonny, in reply to your excellent point, I don't suppose that "yeah, but they're still wusses" would be a very mature reply...

[Elizabeth]

The park fees do not accommodate the poor many of whom, by the way, live in the area around. The fees for adults went from $1 to $2 last year to $3 this year. Do you see a trend? These fees were originally installed about 20 odd years ago as a way to keep an undesirable element out and using the park as a free daycare facility. "A walk in the park" used to mean something free and easy. Now it is available to only those who can afford it.

[Jonny Anonny]

Not mature, no -- but funny! And well taken.

[Dale Niemann]

Howard, write the arguments against Hometown Democracy but not against getting the people the right to vote on it.

[Jonny Anonny]

Howard -- Seems like there's a lot going on lately. Care to give us any insight as to what's at the top of your radar screen in terms of issues for possible future articles?

[Howard Troxler]

Dale, I agree 100% and a big theme of what I have written over the years has been in defense of the right of the citizens to hold an election when they have met all the lawful requirements to demand it.

Elizabeth: I am afraid the cows are long since gone from the barn on the higher-fee issue. We had several articles in the paper about it and encouraged folks to attend the City Council public hearings - that's one reason they're gonna start opening the main Public Library on Saturdays again, I am happy to say. But you are right, the gov't is taking it out of the hides of people using the parks to balance the budget.

[Howard Troxler]

More on Hometown Democracy as mentioned above. An account of today's voting-machine demostrations. A weird attempt in Clearwater to remove voter approval from waterfront deveopment. Annexation wars and the future of Lealman. Local politics in Madiera Beach. Downlisting the manatee. Biofuel. What happened to the idea of selling off the Ocala National Forest. How the Legislature should cut the budget...

[dick dornblaser]

I agree with you and Pablo on a single National Primary Election Day. It may solve a lot of problems. It would be nice for the media to encourage it. It may even be a good ballot question since I feel the legislators could not decide the issue because of political pressures and maybe other reasons and permitting the people to vote on it may even cast a favorable light on them.

[Howard Troxler]

Jonny, but I am chagrined to tell you, it usually comes down to what is possible to get done by the next deadline! Also you gotta keep it mixed up and with varied tone; it can't be 3 times a week of, "And now, this know-it-all is going to lecture us on Another Important Issue.''

[Howard Troxler]

May I say, in a non-sectarian way: Holy cow, but the hour flew past! Thank you for the great variety of questions today and I hope I was able to answer a couple of 'em. Thanks also to everybody who just dropped by to see what was going on.

As always, I'll keep comments open for folks to add their thoughts after the fact. See you at the next chat, if not before knocking around the blog somewhere...

Howard

I don't like knowing what's in my X-mass present either. I prefer to open the paper with anticipation.

[Dale Niemann]

Howard, thanks for giving me my 1st opportunity to voice my opinion on your blog. I enjoyed it and will return when I have time. I enjoy your very informative column.
Thanks

[Pablo]

Thanks, Dick, for your agreement. I'm afraid the media -- especially cable tv -- wouldn't care to promote a single primary day, though, because all these way-too-many and way-too-long debates give them something to televise and promote. Let's figure out a way to move forward with the idea.