Here's the transcript of the Oct. 2 chat

We had a pretty active weekly live chat on TroxBlog today, touching on city, county, state and presidential politics. We talked about this week's special session of the Legislature and the prospects for auto insurance and tax reform. Other topics included how to get "less stupid voters" to vote (not my words!), whether I'm opposed to term limits (no!), the upcoming City Council election in St. Petersburg and a little gossip about that city's next mayoral election down the road. And what would a chat be without a mention of Hometown Democracy?

To read a transcript of today's chat, click on the "Comments" link of this announcement. You'll see what everybody had to say, and you can still add your own comments.

Thanks to everyone who took part or came by today! I hope you'll consider coming by for the next scheduled chat at noon on Tuesday, Oct. 9.

Comments

[Howard Troxler]

Howard here. Now and then my columns are run in other newspapers around the state, and I get a second wave of comments. Here's one on my column about the potential problems with optical-scan voting machines:

i must tell you as a former party activist, i have come to the conclusion that voting is highly overrated. we actaully need less stupid people voting. if they can't figure out the ballots, have to carry a 'cheat sheet' or a ballot example then they are not qualified.
-- jk joyce, stuart

[Howard Troxler]

Dear jk joyce: Well, there's probably no way to arrange to have "less stupid people voting" (for one thing, who gets to decide?) so it seems to me we need to arrange the most foolproof voting system possible. Even then, I imagine some folks will be stumped.

[Howard Troxler]

A pre-filed comment by Larry:

Howard, your column this morning, and I've heard you lament this before, seems to poo-poo the term limits the voters decided on in Florida. You decry youth and inexperience on the job. I don't know if you can recall the former way things were done when elected office in the legislature was like a fifedom in Florida, even passed down from father to son. Sorry, but I strongly disagree with your position on that one. Eight years is long enough, even too long in some cases. Just look around Pinellas County. It is indeed unfortunate that Pinellas County has the most apathetic voters in the state. Like I said, just look around.

[Howard Troxler]

Dear Larry: Actually, I beat the drum loudly for the term-limits movement and screamed bloody murder when the Legislature tried some dirty tricks to try to block it. You are right about the fiefdoms. I am thankful that we got rid of some of the folks who have been driven out by term limits over the years (and sorry to see a few go as well). The citizens are absolutely, postively entitled to term limits if they want them. (Same for Hometown Democracy, by the way.) Having said that, there are tradeoffs to everything. I think it is being intellectually honest to point out that term limits have downsides as well.

[Steve]

Howard, in my opinion you are spot on regarding the ineffectiveness of the Florida legislature. I don't believe giving up term limits is the answer. How can voters regain their interest in the process when it seems that the more things change the more they stay the same? Gov. Crist seems the embodiment of the modern politician and the modern problem: tell everyone what they want to hear while looking for the next step up the political ladder.

[(Mr) Bill]

Hi, Howard and whoever else is out there. We might achieve jk joyce's "less stupid people voting" (does she mean "FEWER stupid people voting" or "LESS-STUPID people voting"?) if we had better civic education, including some chances for kids to practice real-life democracy in their classes and schools.

As to political fiefdoms, my first thoughts are: (i) Mike and Gus Bilirakis; (ii) George Bush the Elected and his Supreme Court-appointed son....

[Howard Troxler]

Thanks for the comment, Steve. I regret not making it clear in my column that I am NOT in favor of repealing term limits, only that they have contributed to our current situation. I agree with you that if anything, repealing them now would only make things worse -- we'd have what we've got, permanently!

[Howard Troxler]

(Mr) Bill, surely you don't mean "fewer less-stupid voters," meaning, "more MORE-stupid voters"? Wait, let me try again...

I absolutely agree about the role of education... we are much smarter consumers on how to buy a car than on choosing a politician...

[Howard Troxler]

Here's a pre-filed comment from Curmudgin:

Alvin Toffler's Prophecy Fulfilled - 37 years later! Those that don't know their history are doomed to repeat it. Sad! But oh so true

[Howard Troxler]

Dear Curmudgin: I am not sure of the topic to which you refer, but it is hard to argue in any case. :)

[AJ]

Hey Howard, what's your take on Jaime Bennett running against a new election?

[Howard Troxler]

Hi AJ! That's kind of funny, isn't it? I've never seen the words "New Election" on a ballot as an alternative. That's what the St. Pete charter provides in case a candidate withdraws before the election, as Bennett's rival did.

As a practical matter, he shouldn't have any trouble and even he joked that if he couldn't win this race, he doesn't deserve to hold office.

[Howard Troxler]

Now, I bet there are SOME incumbents who might have trouble running against "New Election"...

There are some incumbents who have trouble running a fever!

[AJ]

True, the St. Pete munies have been a pretty fun so far. I can't remember the last time we had a council race that required candidates to be hospitalized. Got any favorite stories that have come out of this cycle?

[guy]

Howard,The legislatures, that we elect,
Do they all drink from the same fountain???

[Howard Troxler]

Y'all might remember my correspondent Nelson, who is quite critical of my columns on Hometown Democracy. On Sunday I wrote a column spelling out some of the arguments AGAINST it, but that did not fully satisfy him. Here is an excerpt from his longer comment, posted to the previous item on this blog:

You also forgot the single strongest argument against HD: if voters are so smart, why did they elect the bad politicians in the first place? And what's to stop them from making similarly bad decisions when voting on comp plans, which are far more difficult to understand? I pointed this out before and you ignored it, but it is the very crux of the issue. You have a sad penchant for ignoring the arguments you can't combat. Cowardly.

-- Nelson

[Howard Troxler]

Guy, my first answer is "yes." My second answer is that if you, me and 158 other people magically became the Legislature tomorrow, we'd be about the same in just a few months. The old question of why we don't get "better people to run for office" is answered by the fact that we often DO get good people. IMHO the system bends them to its will; some of them are, shall we say, somewhat more bendable than others.

[20/20]

Actually, comprehensive plans are not that diffucult to understand. Those written by developers (like here in Pinellas) can be...

[Howard Troxler]

Dear Nelson: What, I make an argument against the thing, and for my troubles get called both "Howie" AND "cowardly"? Sigh. I thought I had said pretty much exactly what you say, by pointing out the argument that comp-plan amendments involve many technical considerations that ought to be evaluated by professionals and elected officials with experience, and should not be mere popularity contests.

[Jonny Anonny]

Howard -- talking national stuff, have you said what you think yet of the Dems running for the 08 nomination taking a "pledge" not to campaign here? Only use Fla as their ATM...

[Howard Troxler]

And, AJ -- well, there IS the council candidate who seems to be working out his feelings about homosexuality sort of on the run...

I'm not a texter, what does IMHO mean?

[(Mr) Bill]

Howard, I think that I meant either "fewer less-stupider voters" or "more stupid voters named Les," but who knows? Anyway.........Any new prognostications on what's next for PIP, property taxes, and-or homeowner's insurance?

[Howard Troxler]

Jonny, howdy, yes I have... let me see if I can dig it up...

http://www.sptimes.com/2007/09/25/Columns/Don_t_woo_us_later_if.shtml

It ran the other day. I was kinda proud of the headline, which I intended to sound like a country song title: "Don't woo us later if you don't love us now."

[Howard Troxler]

Sorry, that was a 48-year-old guy trying to be hip. IMHO = In My Humble Opinion. Which, of course, goes without saying ... (grin)

Okay, you're asking ME for predictions, but you gotta say too:

PIP: Deal falls apart.

Property taxes: Enough folks secretly want to do something else that the 1/29 amendment doesn't get renewed -- they'll claim to be taking the appeal route.

Insurance: Just gonna keep gettin' worse... has anyone heard a single peep about them coming back in the election year for another major "reform"?

[Howard Troxler]

If anything, on insurance, I believe the Legislature passed a one-year moratorium on the ability of insurance co's to appeal the denial of rate increases... gotta double-check that, but if that's right, then they could go back to thumbing their nose at McCarty, who has at least had a bigger temporary stick these days.

Thanks for the text lesson... IHD

... that's "I'm hip dude!"... I think.

[Jennifer W]

About city council, anyone have any ideas on who has thrown their hat in the ring for John Bryan's seat? I haven't heard a peep.

[Howard Troxler]

Here's a question about no-fault auto insurance, which the governor has added to this week's special session of the Legislature:

Why is it that the paper has run many inches about PIP not being renewed but nothing about why, other than the senate doesn't want to do anything about it? Because their friends and financial supporters the personal-injury lawyers stand to make a fortune from
the myriad additional lawsuits that are going to arise? Or is their buddies the insurance companies that don't want to pay out anymore? It can't be the hospitals who are going to go even further broke from treating the uninsured? And certainly not we ordinary people who either have no health insurance or of mustsuffer with the thousands of uninsured drivers this is going to spawn. -- Ron

[(Mr) Bill]

OK, here's my semi-informed predictions:

PIP: Nothing happens.

Property taxes: No idea. What might be this "something else" that lots of people want to do?

Insurance: The vox populi grows loud enough in an election year to make incumbents frightened enough to try again.

I heard Eve Joy is tossing her hat in for the Bryan spot. Nice lady.

[Howard Troxler]

Dear Ron: I thought we had said all that stuff. Yes, lawyers want it to expire. The insurance companies are split. The biggest gun, State Farm, wants it to go away. Some others (GEICO) don't. The hospitals definitely want to KEEP no-fault because otherwise they're gonna get stuck for a lot of unpaid emergency-room care.

[Jonny Anonny]

Howard -- thanks for the link. That *is* a good title for a country song. You ought to take it to Nashville... Or propose it for the new State Song.

Agree with your predictions. On taxes, the word I heard is very conspiracy-theory-centric. It goes like this. That Rubio & Co. *deliberately* delivered a a flawed referendum (why no relief for small business owners, anyway?), knowing that the court would give them a blueprint of what they *could* say. Now that the court has done their part of the deal (unwittingly, of course), they can go back during regular session and craft something for the *November* ballot. Anti-tax language on the November ballot is a sure-fire way to get out the GOP base, and provide a rhetorical platform for the eventual GOP nominee to come down and campaign on...

All very devious.

[Jennifer W]

Eve Joy...have I heard of her before? Can't think why. And how about re-electing Herb Polson? Apparently legal, but sneaky. Don't know how I feel about that one either.

[guy]

Howard, Honestly, if we lose the 3% cap in Florida, the folks who have little homes and are retired, will really get hurt financially.
The price of food has doubled but SS has only gone up 10%.

[jean]

So Howard, Fred Marquis is back in the courthouse. Will he and Chuck Rainey burn up the phone lines? Remember you wrote once that Fred and Rainey kept the trains running on time and if the schedule wasn't kept no one knew it. Wonder how Fred liked Spratt's parting shot that the county finances hadn't been great and there had been no stragetic plan. I recall Mark Woodard, Iorio's husband, stayed employed after the Penny for Pinellas funding fiasco.

[Howard Troxler]

Re Bryan vacancy: On a side note, I wonder whether St. Pete council vacancies should be taken to special election sooner or at least re-filled at the first available election. The idea of the council choosing its own replacements is kinda ... insider-y, do you think?

"... legal, but sneaky."

Sound like a good candidate for County Attorney... ;-)

[20/20]

Howard,

You're absolutely correct about the St. Pete council filling its own vacancy. Very dangerous precedence.

[Howard Troxler]

Eve Joy: ran for council before.

Devious plan on tax amendment: I don't know about 11/08 timing being deliberate, but I do think some folks wouldn't mind using the court ruling to come back with a bigger plan, e.g. Rubio's one-time proposal to eliminate ALL homestead taxes.

Re: Marquis and Rainey: You bet. It will be interesting to see if the old military commander Marquis has any trouble adjusting to a changed climate since 2000. The citizens are a little more uppity these days...

re: Guy's comment on 3% -- which is why the court said it was misleading, not clear that this amendment would REPEAL the Save Our Homes cap for those who took the deal.

[Jennifer W]

city council filling it's own replacement spots, insider-y? Of course it is!! That's how Herb got there in the first place, and now he's legally up for re-election! Side note, nothing personal against Herb, I have only the dimmest of ideas of his politics. I am merely commenting on the process here.

[Howard Troxler]

City, county, state, presidential... somebody throw in Iraq and we will be hittin' on all cylinders in this chat. No, wait, I am KIDDING about Iraq.

Iran, on the other hand...

[Howard Troxler]

Agreed on the City Council thing to the extent that "re-elect" seems a little cheesy to me since he was not elected. No criticism of his merits as a council member whatsoever. Seems to me a judicial candidate got in trouble for this very thing; of course the JQC rules are different...

[guy]

I ran for city council in 1983.
Went into a different world than I was used to.
Scary.

[Jennifer W]

Nope Howard, not taking the bait. Local politics are much more fun.

[John Ardolino]

The real problem is that our elected officials do not represent the voters any longer. Not local, state, or federal. I will be working vigorously this election season to unseat every incumbent based on poor proformance. Any and all who might agree are welcomed to help bring back responsible representation.

[guy]

You notice I don't capitalize
"city council" anymore!!!!

[20/20]

On Fred's return...

Marquis’ credentials are unquestionable to be sure. Having said that, it’s a political “smoothie” move. I’m more concerned that apparently, there isn’t a qualified Assistant County Administrator who can step up to the plate for a spell. From negligent Commissioners to unqualified Assistants. What kind of barn was Spratt running anyway?

[Howard Troxler]

I understand the anti-incumbent sentiment, but let me meekly make the point that elections are never "yes, keep this guy" or "no, fire him" (except in this James Bennet race!)... it takes TWO to tango, and to oust an incumbent there has to be a credible challenger.

I have raised this hypothetical before. Let's say that neither party produces a strong credible challenger to Jim Smith, the Pinellas property appraiser recently in this scandal. Let's say the only opponent is an obvious wacko whose platform is to, I dunno, break all the laws and appraise people's property unfairly. Don't we HAVE to vote for Smith then? (Ducking in self-defense here)

[Jonny Anonny]

Howard -- (upfront caveat: I'm new-ish to Florida, only been here a year and a half) To your point on running the gamut, what will drive voters here more? Local stuff? Taxes? Insurance? Or will it be Iraq/Iran/International affairs?

[Jennifer W]

John, I will once again vehemently support Jamie Bennett, who is an incumbent, in this election. He DOES represent his voters, he DOES NOT have poor performance, and he is extremely responsible. While I may not agree with all of his viewpoints, he is one of the most sincere, down to earth, caring, capable of listening, common sense, and hard working guys around. He is of true character and absolutely deserves his city council seat.

[guy]

Howard according to the numbers that came out in the Times, to figure your new taxes the 3% was gone.

[Howard Troxler]

Re: assistant county administrators: I kinda thought it was a good move to bring back the strong old hand as an interim, especially after troubled times, instead of a Spratt assistant. Kind of like how Fred Karl kept bailing out Hillsborough County.

I say we put Iran’s Ahmaud I Need A Job up against Smith!

[Howard Troxler]

Jonny, wouldn't you think that the 1/20 election was mostly driven by presidential preference, with the tax issue riding its coattails? Assuming tax is on the ballot at all. There also will be a lot of local elections piggybacked to 1/29 but I still think presidential is what will get most people out... 'specially in the absence of, say, a good governor's race or U.S. senate.

Isn’t that kind of like the parents calling in the child to bring order to the home?

Remind me please, who’s in charge of Pinellas County?

[Vivian Campbell]

I do not believe their is a band aid big enough for a patch fix on pip, Insurance, or taxes.
Our House and Senate need to put these on a regular session and bar all lobiest.
What happened to regular sessions taking place in the open in either house or senate chambers

[Howard Troxler]

Re: Who's in charge of Pinellas County: Well, it used to be Marquis and the strongest of the county commissioners, Charles Rainey. I argued in a column that Marquis left a power vacuum that the commission never really filled, making Spratt a kind of "county mayor" by default -- without the political skills. I do not think the commission is an especially strong board and has been extremely deferential to the administration. So in that sense, bringing back Marquis is bringing back an old crutch for a weak limb... I wouldn't advocate it as a long-term fix...

[Howard Troxler]

Hi Vivian C! You touch indirectly on one of the biggest problems with this Legislature -- ALL these major decisions are made by a handful of insiders, who basically arrive at a deal secretly, then present that deal to everybody else to be ratified. Can't tell you how often in past couple of years the word has been, "We can't make ANY changes to this.'' There is ZERO public input or discussion during the actual drafting of the language.

[Howard Troxler]

There a few minutes left, just in case somebody was trying to decide whether to bring up a new topic...

[AJ]

Okay, I'm looking for Howard the Prognosticator to tell us who he thinks will be up for SP Mayor in 2009. Anybody interesting?

Also, what do you think of the timing of Ernest Williams' announcement for SH55? He did it after he knew Bryan was resigning, but before the suicide came out. Hiding a story?

[Jennifer W]

Time for lunch Howard, enjoy your burger. Give Harry a pat on the head for me, glad he is still doing well.

[Jonny Anonny]

Thanks, as always, Howard.

Ken Welch will take a shot at it.

[Howard Troxler]

Hmm, let's see... James Bennett. How 'bout Goliath Davis? How about most of the current members of the City Council? (Okay, not most, but... Bill Foster? Rene Flowers?)

Re: Williams: Well, he had been thinking about running for the House for a long time, and you might remember he got criticized for bringing it up TOO early the last time around. Nothing suggests to me that there is anything more to it than that.

[Howard Troxler]

Ken Welch, after all this county mess? I had always heard his name as a possible candidate down the road, but had kind of figured lately that this would kill that. If he runs, he'll have to do a REALLY good job of explaining how what happened in the Jim Smith affair casts no doubt whatsoever on his ability to be chief executive of a big city government. Hmm.

[Howard Troxler]

Well, our hour has passed. Seemed like a pretty good chat with lots of subject touched upon. As always I'll keep the comments open for folks to add more after the fact.

Thank you to everyone who offered a question or comment. Thanks to everyone who just came by to take a peek. Thanks, especially, to those coming by for the first time -- I hope to see you back at next week's chat!

Now, let's see what the Legislature does....

[W Fred Petty]

Taxes-Change the law to tax on say about 65% of the assessed market value.

Howard, looks like your editorial board likes Welch's leadership:

"Commissioner Ken Welch, on the other hand, displayed leadership and a no-nonsense approach. He asked tough questions of Churuti that opened holes in her defense of her actions. He corrected Latvala's misstatements about the grand jury's opinion of Churuti's role. He acknowledged "that things have gone wrong" and apologized for his part in it, and he made the motion to fire Churuti when others seemed frozen like deer in headlights."

Times Editorial, 09/06/07

[The ugly truth of it all]

Yeah, but did Welch second the motion to fire the truly guilty "Spratt"?

That would be a big NOPE!

Welch, and the six other criminals on the BOCC, agreed to give Spratt the easy out because Spratt is not bound by attorney/client privilege, and if pushed, just might talk about ALL the other abuses of power and misuses of our tax dollars.

[Fan of Nelson]

So once again Nelson takes Howard to the woodshed, and all Howard can do is whine about being called "Howie".

Didn't you mock our Governor and CEO as "Governor Dither" and "CFO Tut-Tut"? Looks like you can dish it out, but you can't take it, Howie.

[Boo Boo]

Take it from an insider. Spratt surrounded himself with sub serviant yes men and women. He spent 6 years kissing up (saying that nicely) to the BOCC. Showing them just how smart and resourceful he was. Anyone that rocked his boat or he felt threatend by, was either fired or made so misrable they resigned. He alienated the nuts and bolts employees of the County by giving to his managers then turning around a lowering merit raises for the common workers. Believe me no one was sorry to see him go. The search for a new County Administrator should include a warning label. "Taking of this job may cause illusions of grandure" Symtoms may include swollen head and discoloration around the tip of the nose. If this occurs don't panic the complextion of the Board you report to will be changing with every election. Just be a down to earth people person and you will have nothing to worry about.

Roses are red, violets are blue… I’m a schizophrenic, and so am I.

Nice job Nelson (aka; 9:34) of patting yourself on the back. What else do you do to yourself?

Good post Boo Boo… exactly right!

[Johnny Socco]

Howard,

First chat and thoroughly enjoyed it. Would love to discuss Gov Charlie's chatter vs substance next week...

[J. Lasita]

Agree with Howard's, as well as Jennifer W's and 20/20's comments regarding the City Council process for appointing replacements for vacant seats. When I served on council I participated in three such appointments(Foster, Williams, & Kriseman). To me, if you can anticipate that a seat will come available, such as Kriseman's resignation to run for State Rep last year, it would seem to have made sense to put the open Council seat on the November'06 ballot as a special election for the balance of Kriseman's term. In the case of a sudden vacancy, such as we have now, an ideally short term appointment, followed by a special election for the balance of the term at the earliest practical opportunity (01/29/08?) would seem logical. I actually advocated for something like this on a few occasions during my service. It was usually not well received by the rest of the City Council.

[csbrudy]

Howard, Make sure I'm informed of the next chat, I learned lots from this.
Great info on all the local stuff. Eve Joy has one ton of experience, NOAA and other stuff.
My personal obsession is the voting machines, which are unfit for artificial reef material, even. I'm a hand count advocate. Even if we paid counters (and volunteers are coming out of the woodwork), it would cost less than new scanners and would be 99.99% accurate. See OpEd news and search Nancy Tobi.