Schools and segregation: read the Oct. 9 chat

We had a thoughtful conversation in this week's live chat on TroxBlog about the idea of re-segregating the public schools, pegged to the current controversy over Pinellas County's latest plan.

Readers summed up the problem well, with some saying they had benefited personally from growing up in integrated schools, and others saying that children shouldn't be forced to give up their local school.

Schools weren't the only topic in today's weekly chat. Readers also brought up the Legislature, no-fault insurance, property tax reform, gambling, and even the status of state Rep. Bob Allen, still fighting his version of Larry Craig men's-room charges.

To read the transcript of today's chat, click on the "Comments" link of this announcement a few lines below. You'll see what folks have had to say so far, and a space for you to add your own comment or question.

Thanks to everyone who took part or came by, and I hope to you see you at the next weekly chat on Tuesday, Oct. 16!

Comments

[Howard Troxler]

Okay, welcome to the chat. There are several pre-filed comments on various topics that I'll try to work in.

First, here's a quick announcement:

If you are interested in digging into the nuts and bolts of how the Legislature is cutting the state budget in the current special session, it's available on the web. Here's the link:

http://www.flsenate.gov/Session/index.cfm?Node=Appropriations&Submenu=6&Tab=session

You'll actually be looking at the "conference reports," or negotiated language of the appropriations bill hammered out by the House and Senate committees. The full budget should
be approved on Friday.

A helpful hint: Anything you see struck through is the old language that is being replaced. Anything that's underlined is new language.

[Howard Troxler]

To get things started, here's a quote passed along by a reader without additional comment, although it didn't really need one:

"It appears we have appointed our worst generals to command forces, and our most gifted and brilliant to edit newspapers. In fact, I discovered by reading newspapers that these editor/geniuses plainly saw all my strategic defects from the start, yet failed to inform me until it was too late. Accordingly, I am readily willing to yield my command to these obviously superior intellects, and I will, in turn, do my best for the Cause by
writing editorials - after the fact." - Robert E. Lee, 1863

[Howard Troxler]

On the Robert E. Lee quote, I can relate to how he felt. The Devil's Dictionary defines "editorial writer" as someone whose job it is to come in after the battle and shoot the
wounded. In my own annual satirical column that review's each year's events, I usually end with newspaper columnists or editorial writers somehow being put in charge of the state --
with the state sinking into the sea the next day.

[Howard Troxler]

By the way, the hoax-busting web site Snopes.com says it is not clear whether Robert E. Lee actually said that. It also has been attributed to other generals over the years. Here's the link:

http://www.snopes.com/politics/quotes/robertelee.asp

[Howard Troxler]

Here's a pre-filed comment regarding the state House speaker, Mario Rubio:

How about this gem from the Palm Beach Post?

TALLAHASSEE — Even as House Speaker Marco Rubio's House cut $5,000 from the Florida Supreme Court chief justice's discretionary fund and $1,828 to Nova Southeastern University to help
balance the state's budget, he continues to pay a well-connected GOP consultant $10,000 a month, even though she produced no written work in the month of September.

Donna Arduin, once former Gov. Jeb Bush's budget chief, was rehired by Rubio, R-West Miami, starting Sept. 1.

Comment?

[Howard Troxler]

My comment on the Donna Arduin story is that I don't know her, but she seems to be a pretty experienced expert on state budget stuff, having worked both for Jeb and for Schwarzenegger in California. I wouldn't rule out the possibility that she is worth having around. After all, I just finished arguing the other day that the Legislature doesn't have enough
institutional expertise. It sure beats spending a bunch of dough on remodeling the House offices, anyway...

[Ron]

Howard, Are we actually going to get some sort of SOH portability out of the legislature this time around?

[Howard Troxler]

Hi Ron! It certainly looks like it, and maybe even by the end of this week. The idea is to double the existing homestead exemption to $50,000, allow people to move their existing Save Our Homes protection to a different house, and throw in an intangibles tax credit as a sop to businesses.

Provides some relief, doesn't necessarily change the underlying structural problems ... seems like a good subject for Thursday's column!

[Ron]

I've been working out of town quite a bit recently, so pardon me for my ignorance on some issues, but what's going on with the gambling negotiations? Is the State going to get a slice of the pie?

[(Mr) Bill]

Howard, you and I believe that racial and ethnic diversity in schools is a good in and of itself. So did the pre-Roberts and Alito U.S. Supreme Court, but we'll get no help from there for the foreseeable future. Many people, maybe most, appear to be skeptical at best of the value of diversity in schools (and other social arenas). Any ideas on what to do?

[Howard Troxler]

On taxes, also the possibility of changing the "highest and best use" rule for appraising property. State law now says "highest and best use" should be one of the factors considered in deciding how much a piece of property is worth. Lots of mom & pop beach businesses argue they are being forced to sell since they're being valued as million-dollar condos!

[Howard Troxler]

On gambling, the latest is that the governor's people and the Seminole tribe are still negotiating. We had a story the other day saying apparently the feds had quietly said Oct. 15 would be a good time to wrap something up.

This is getting more interesting to me. The Legislature is not at all sure that we HAVE to do anything, or that the feds would AUTOMATICALLY permit the Seminoles to expand without a state compact.

[Ron]

It looks like we've gone full circle. If memory serves me, the plan you describe is quite similar to the Gov's original ideas. Will the already passed legislation rolling back and capping local revenues still apply?

[Howard Troxler]

(Mr) Bill, I share your assessment of the court. I would think that the coming challenges would be more specific than merely saying, separate is automatically unequal, and would focus on (1) performance gap between black and white students and (2) resources, allocations, conditions, etc. -- if not AUTOMATICALLY unequal, then unequal in fact, and hence unconstitutional regardless.

As for the social impact of re-segregation, in my more cynical moments I wonder what difference it makes... but mostly I have been idealistic and thought it was better to try than not to try.

[Howard Troxler]

Ron, yes, largely full circle, since the gov had campaigned on a doubled homestead exemption. There is still the other stuff in there though. The implications of changing highest and best use are really significant and I hope gets some serious consideration before plunging in.

To my knowledge this new deal does not change the previously passed and implemented round of tax cuts that took effect this fall.

[Howard Troxler]

Let me throw in these two comments about re-segregated schools, showing the conundrum perfectly:

As one who attended Pinellas County schools from kindergarten through high school, I'm disappointed that there will be, essentially, black and white divided high schools. I attribute the way I am today with the fact that I was brought up among people of different
religions, economic background and color my entire school life. As a kid growing up on St. Pete Beach, this would not have otherwise happened. -- Bill

The fact that attending neighborhood schools will create segregation shouldn't be the reason to force parents to uproot kids or to bus kids all over the county. The problem is that neighborhoods are segregated. Schools shouldn't have to reverse the segregation that parents want when they move to neighborhoods where they feel comfortable. As someone who grew up in
a neighborhood with every race represented, I would want my kids to be with other children who represent humanity as a whole. Yet I would still opt to have my kids avoid school buses
and stay in our neighborhood to go to school. The problem is segregated enclaves and the solutions aren't busing plans cooked up by the School Board. -- Lucia

[DrT]

Howard,what do you think about the "new" PIP? Is it any better than the "old" PIP?

[Howard Troxler]

Hi DrT! I have only read the summary of the bill and not its actual wording. On the surface it seems a little better, with at least the beginning of some cost controls, rules on clinic ownership. I don't know if it's enough to get at the basic problem of no-fault/PIP, which was that if there was $10,000 worth of coverage, the bill usually ended up by an amazing coincidence being close to $10,000!

And yet I think it is better to have the requirement than not...

[(Mr) Bill]

I'm 100% down with Lucia's comment that the root problem is residential segregation, not school segregation. The law can't do a heck of a lot about that -- can it?

"Unequal in fact" in the specifics is a promising take on the matter. It's the old debate about equality of opportunity versus equality of outcomes....

[Howard Troxler]

On PIP, the impact on hospitals alone was a big reason for concern about just letting it expire, seems to me.

This was a have and have-not issue, with 86% of State Farm's customers (including me) having other coverage and being OK, but society in general no longer protected against uninsured motorists, opening the door to more lawsuits, etc...

[Howard Troxler]

Here's part of a pre-filed comment from a regular TroxBloger, Boo Boo:

It's been the BIG story for the last few days. My co worker (big smile) found a bag of money. I can tell you Deb did not hesitate one second. She knew she had to do the right thing and the only thing "turn it in". Lets do an unscientific poll. Keep or turn in that is the question.

-- Boo Boo

[Howard Troxler]

Dear Boo Boo: I don't know whether it's virtue or cowardice on my part, but I always keep in mind what bad stuff could happen if I DIDN'T return the money. But I'm such an sap that I also go back and give the store cashier the money if he or she has given me too much change...

[Ron]

Is the Hometown Democracy movement dead or dying? Seeing as how we live in a representative democracy, I never thought that this was a good idea.

[Pablo]

I recall sitting in a segregated high school civics class here in Florida back in the '50s -- watching history unfold before us on a television set our teacher brought in. Those were the days of mandated segregation. Looks like we're turning back those pages of history and future students will be experiencing de facto segregation. Who wins? Who loses?

[Howard Troxler]

On Hometown Democracy, I would not buy into either side's "prediction" of how weak the other side's campaign is. I would let the signatures do the talking when they finally submit them.

I do not think HD is dead or dying, however, based on the unscientific reaction I get from folks. There's a lot of resentment out there.

On the argument for representative as opposed to direct democracy, in my column last Sunday I tried to sum up many of the leading arguments AGAINST HD, having made some of the ones for it previously.

[Larry]

Howard, if they double the homestead exemption to $50,000 what exactly does that translate into for the average Joe taxpayer? This does not fix the problem as you have pointed out, but tax relief is needed now as well as keeping the SOH cap. Even a $50,000 exemption will seem like small potatoes a few years from now when the madness begins anew.

[Howard Troxler]

Hi Pablo! To me there are two categories of loss in returning to segregated schools.

The first is the risk of drifting back into unequal schools, as we mentioned earlier -- unequal resources, unequal results, etc.

The second is more general and societal, as some folks have mentioned here today, whatever benefit our society gets from at least TRYING to explose our young people to each other at some point in their lives.

[Howard Troxler]

Larry, good question on the effect of the doubled homestead. Should be some additional relief for homeowners, since the Save Our Homes cap would still exist so they couldn't just jack up the appraisal high enough to offset.

Neither, under the new statutory stuff, could they just jack up the millage to offset, without taking an extraordinary vote.

So this DOES represent a further revenue cut.

[Howard Troxler]

Remember that the LAW already passed by the Legislature, as opposed to any constitutional amendment, ties the the annual increase in assessments to the annual rise in personal income... so there is some protection in there for both homestead and non-homestead. However, doubling the homestead exemption of course only helps one class of taxpayers, homeowners, directly.

[Howard Troxler]

For anyone who's checking out the chat but hasn't chimed in, feel free to bring up a new subject or to comment on an old one... we've got a quarter of the chat left!

[Kathy]

I, too, grew up in Pinellas County, had friends who were varied, and now live in a predominantly white area.
I am also a teacher. I have been reading to my children since they were born, insist on HW first, and am actively involved in their education.
It is not about reseg., but about differences in raising children.
EVERY child CAN do well, but the schools alone can not do it. No matter what the color of your peers or teachers may be, and no matter how much extra money and work is thrown in, if education is not valued or sought after in a given family, the child will find it difficult to bridge the gap.

[Howard Troxler]

Kathy, thanks for the comment! If I remember correctly, the studies show that parental involvement is THE single biggest variable in a child's performance. Maybe I overstate that but if so, not by much.

Interestingly, I asked somebody yesterday whether there is still a "performance gap" between black and white kids in "fundamental" schools, where parents HAVE to be fully involved under the terms of the contract. And such a gap still exists. What does this tell us, I ask rhetorically?

Howard -- No one (at least not me) has heard much about the Bob Allen deal lately. What's the status?

[Kathy]

Why does everyone want to continue to look at people as white or black anyway? Why can't we look at people as people -- different (thank God), but valued, every one?

Is there really something WRONG with attending schools with others who are black/Hispanic/white/Asian/etc.? We are all humans, with different backgrounds and perspectives, and it is one thing that makes this country great. Where else can you stay in one country but experience so many different cuisines, dress, language, customs, etc.?

[Catherine Devine]

As the mother of two elementary students in Pinellas, I'm closely following the changes being proposed with school zoning. I agree with you that the current proposal will only promote resegregation. If the current proposal goes through, I think that segregation problems and complaints from parents will only force the board to have to readdress the zoning once again a year from now.
I was also very concerned with their initial proposal which included the "reverse sibling" policy. The new draft proposes that K through 5 can now be grandfathered into their current school, but if they choose to be grandfathered there, then parents provide transportation, which is fine with our family. It makes me wonder if this could also be a solution to the rezoning situation. In other words, why not KEEP Choice and just adjust it? A lot of people are very happy with Choice. Most people chose five schools closest to home. Unfortunately, the board usually only hears the complaints and not the compliments. A change that may work is: if a parent chooses a school that is more than say, six miles from home vs. a neighborhood school, than they are not eligible for busing. That way, parents that are insisting on a certain school for more diversity, certain programs, etc., can provide their own transportation. It could save on busing costs and keep parents happy with a number of choices for schools that their children could still get bus transportation for and schools further away that could be chosen if families provide transportation. I know a lot of families cannot provide transportation to school due to work schedules and/or costs, but it would give them a choice of bussing to several neighborhood schools as well as the choice of a long-distance school, if they can use transportion other than the school bus. Just a thought.

[Howard Troxler]

Bob Allen is serving in the state House and fighting his men's-room charges. The House leadership took away his influence and stuck him in a crummy desk, but his vote still counts just as much as anybody else's.

Weirdo that I am, I argued in an earlier column that if he gets convicted, I would be MORE prone to keeping him in office, on the grounds that he would be a better public servant for having been through the experience!

[jackie]

Food for thought......why do we as parents continue to expect our children to do what we refuse to do? We refuse to live in integrated neighborhoods, yet insist our children need integrated schools to broaden their views? Also, could someone please be more specific about why neighborhood schools could become 'unequal'. Would black neighborhood schools receive less funding than white neighborhood schools? Wouldn't it be incumbent upon each neighborhood to be more involved if their were inequities? What are the facts? Thanks.....Jackie

[Jonny Anonny]

Hi, Howard: have you seen any "impact" statements or reports from maybe state and local government entities on what some of the new property tax reforms being floated around might do? Is there a sense that there will be broader public support for what the legis. is doing now (seems like there would be, but who knows)?

[Mark]

People complain about segregated schools, but not segregated neighborhoods. Why is is OK for an area to be a predominately white or black community, but the schools can't follow the same demographics? As a parent, I would like my children to go to the school near our home...demographics be damned. While I realize not everyone feels the same way, the schools should be filled with local students and then backfilled with a modified "choice" program.

[Lucia]

Re schools: we transferred our kids from an all-white private school to the public school system so they could experience growing up with a variety of friends. That was my choice to send them to a desegregated school, but I would still like my kids to attend school nearby where I can volunteer, visit or attend school events. Having kids across town to meet a quota doesn't promote parent involvement at all.

[Howard Troxler]

Catherine Devine, thank you for the good comment. I have wondered, as well, whether it might be better just to keep a "modified choice'' plan instead of insisting on taking the final plunge. That way people most motivated by truly "neighborhood'' schools can choose 'em... I imagine there are financial and other considerations to keeping it, though. The superintendent, Clayton Wilcox, already is warning the board that even its more liberal "grandfather'' policies are going to cost more than just going to close-to-home schools. I have the impression Wilcox has been much more of a "let's just do it once'' guy as opposed to pulling off the band-aid slowly...

[Kathy]

Howard, to address the fundamental performance gap issue, one must know the family backgrounds of the children involved.
Of course there are families of black children who are more involved than some families who are white. Probably a reason they selected a fundamental school. But it does not necessarily mean that certain things have occurred AT HOME as opposed to just attending what the school asks you to attend, and signing off on the HW each night, and wearing a uniform.
A lot more to it, than that, I think. But I d o not know the families of which you speak, so I do not know why there still exists a gap.

[(Mr) Bill]

As someone in the ivory tower of the USF College of Education, but who's worked a lot in high-poverty schools with real teachers and real children, I believe that almost all parents _do_ care about their children's educations. Their caring is the determining factor in their choice not to participate and to leave education to the professionals. Adults who have had miserable experiences in schools sometimes get an almost PTSD-type reaction walking into a school building. More important, people who consider themselves ignorant in school knowledge could well believe that the more they get involved, the more harm they'll do to their kids.

[Howard Troxler]

Jackie, thanks, and that is a good question on how schools would become unequal -- I do think it is possible they could, however. You are exactly right, seems to me, that parents and the community would have to keep an eye on it and be responsible for speaking up. But yes, I think it is PRECISELY possible that the schools could drift into unequal resources, etc. -- so much of what happens in a school is intangible and depends on the motivation of the staff, faculty, etc. as well.

[Bill]

In graduate school I recall a pretty large performance gap. Actually there was a pretty massive gap on the GRE scores, which I would have thought would have closed. It didn't.

[Howard Troxler]

Back to JonnyAnonny's question, I have NOT seen any specific numbers yet on the impact of the latest tax plan, since it is (as usual!) kind of being done on the fly... maybe some of the locals did runs on the theoretical impact of a doubled homestead but I haven't seen 'em.

If I understand correctly, by the way, this plan would NOT include school taxes, so folks would still have that tax bill...

[John Rinaldi]

This road builder who pleaded guilty to wire fraud will probably pay a fine and a slap on the wrist.His punishment should be that he has to carry around two signs, one in front and one behind him in front of the county court house for 5 days a week for one year. the signs should read; My name is Michael Cone and I'm a fraud and deserves this punishment. He should also pay a hefty fine of millions of dollars.Ibet that would stop a lot of the corruption thats going on around us everyday.

[Howard Troxler]

Thanks for the Cone comment. In general, I have always been struck by the fact that if you steal $500 with a gun, you have an excellent chance of going to prison, but if you steal millions with a piece of paper, odds are your lawyer can argue successfully that you've "suffered enough."

Now, on a different subject, remembering first-hand the terror that the Hyde Park attacker caused, I am not so sympathethic to the idea that he has "reformed" ...

[Kathy]

At risk of sounding ?, perhaps part of the GRE gap came from the background and perspectives I wrote of earlier. There is a great difference in culture for many, notice I did not say all, families who are black in terms of speaking, etc.. This could account for some difference.
When I was teaching however, in a private Christian school, my black students were at the top of the class.

[Jonny Anonny]

Howard -- if it's not too late... what is going to happen at the Democratic Convention in Orlando in a couple of weeks, since none of the candidates will be there? I mean, besides a totally awesome concert by "Orleans"?

What is it they expect to do there?

[Howard Troxler]

Jonny: It is kinda sad, isn't it? No candidates, no candidates SPOUSES even. I think they got the assistant to the House traveling secretary or somebody like that as the guest of honor... an interesting last-minute attempt I read about in this morning's paper, trying to get some of the possible vice presidental possibles to come, since they wouldn't be violating the Fla campaign ban.

But I think party conventions have a good function even without the star power stuff. They're a chance for the grass-roots folks from around the state to connect, network, meet with like-minded folks. True of both parties.

[Howard Troxler]

BTW, I think the "awesome" judgment of the Orleans appearance is a matter of some debate as well.... :)

[Jonny Anonny]

Howard -- It could've been worse... they could've gotten stuck with an Orleans cover band.

[Howard Troxler]

I am sorry to say that it is past 1 p.m. and the end of the live portion of our chat.

There were some really thoughtful comments in today's chat, especially on the questions of public schools, desegregation and society.

As always, I'll keep the comments field open for anybody who would like to add more thoughts afterward.

And also as always, THANK YOU to everyone who took part today, or just came to watch. I hope you will consider dropping by for the next one, which, unless there is high water or I win the lottery, ought to be at noon next Tuesday...

Best wishes to all,
Howard

[Howard Troxler]

Jonny: Oh, MAN! Yes, that's a fair point.

Concerning Representive government.
It seems to me that true democracy was unfeasible 200 some years ago due to time, distance and the limitations of the communications at the time. Technology has overcome time and distance. It is now technically possible to have a 'True'
democracy.

I must comment on your column today regarding school choice. While I agree that integrated schools are more desirable than segregated schools, a lot has changed since the Brown v. Board of Ed decision was handed down. Now, despite seveal decades of school integration, we have lawsuits over the achievement gap between the races, laying blame on the school system. Also, consider the Supreme Court decision this summer throwing into question most race based student assignment plans.

From my perspective, as a parent of two children in the school system (middle and high school) I see millions every year spent on buses, the administration of the "choice" system, the marketing of school "attractors," all tenuously related to education. True educational needs (teacher salaries, arts programs, etc.) are underfunded year after year. For example, when my daughter was denied a place in the international baccalaureate program I was told the program had to be severely limited in size due to its cost and lack of teachers qualified to teach the demanding classes. Something is seriously wrong when qualified students are denied the chance to reach their potential so half empty buses can travel all over the county each day.

In short I believe that integration is a worthwhile goal but the main function of schools is education, and education should always come first.

ps I am an attorney, familiar with the applicable law

[Elizabeth]

Sorry I missed today's blog. My husband grew up in Jim Crow Florida, with segregated schools, family in the KKK and the St. Pete police force. While he knew in his gut that segregation was wrong, it took him well into his forties to overcome some of his foolish attitudes and to see all people as just folks. We are saddened that our neighborhoods are not more fully integrated, but are also overjoyed that we can count people of all races among our dearest friends. As for schools, the system is beyond repair. Fire the administrators and allow teachers to engage and inspire their students without the burden of tons of paperwork! Pour money into arts programming. Art has no color. Artists, by necessity, have to read and write, do math, and even use science.

Oh but Elizabeth, there's no art FCAT! If it's not on the test it doesn't get taught to anyone, regardless of race, creed or color.

The problem I have with the pending integrated schools is that the same whiners who are blaming the schools for their kids' lack of learning will have a whole NEW reason to bring lawsuits against the system. They say their kids can't learn with white kids, in a year they'll be saying the opposite. They yell for neighborhood schools and at the same time scream, "don't you dare segregate us!"

I'm a former Pin. Co. school board employee who has been a vocal supporter of public schools since my oldest (due to graduate this June) started in kg. My daughter will be starting HS next school year in a private school (which as someone still working on the public dime, I can ill afford) but I'll not make her go through yet another social experiment designed to appease a vocal few who'll never be happy with whatever they're given.

[Larry]

You cannot have integrated neighborhood schools in a county as segregated as Pinellas. It's impossible. Why is this such a shock at this stage of the game?

[Karen]

FCAT is the worst thing to happen to education in this Sate. All the love for learning has been drummed out of the poor kids by the time they finnish elem. school.

[Lin]

To the lawyer who laments the lack of emphasis on the fundamentals and others who fail to see the cost of resegregated schools, know this:

Black majority schools are schools doomed to failure not because of the race of the students but due to the preponderance of poor kids, ie. problem kids from dysfunctional homes. You can throw money at these schools, but you can't elevate them to the status of their counterparts in which majorities are from the middle class (again, it's not about color).

The result will be more failing schools and, significantly, the perpetuation of the achievement gap, which is what started the process of reform from the get-go.

Let's not fool ourselves.

[g]

The person that wrote to elizabeth that the whiners will never have what they want. Darn,...they said the same thing about the jews and the slaves. Go Figure that you would think the same. You served on the school board and look a here...it did'nt do you any good. I say good-bye to you and hello to the new generation of school board OFFICIALS. You are the weakest link