Column: Nice art, but can we please see numbers?

The color drawings are very pretty. They show an exciting new baseball stadium on St. Petersburg's waterfront.

They show a gracious new "downtown west" that would rise on the site of the existing Tropicana Field.

And if color drawings were enough...

Oops, wait a minute.

That is exactly the trouble. In St. Petersburg, color drawings and slogans and sweet talk are enough. They've always been.

We're talking about a city that is a tad weak on the meaning of "due diligence." Let's put it this way: To balance this year's budget, St. Petersburg is still waiting for that prince from Nigeria to send the cash he promised. [entire column]

Comments

[Reality]

How long are we going to allow the “fraud” that is the “Mixed use” developer’s sales pitch?

The “concept” has failed around the country, failed around the state, and continues to fail right here in Pinellas.

Carillon is a perfect example. The people who work there can’t afford to live, play, and shop there; as promised.

Pridgen has to rethink his landfill-view site concept, because the people who work there won’t be able to afford to live, play, and shop there either.

We have thousands of empty over-priced houses and condos all over Pinellas as it is. We do not need more.

[Maurice]

I did a public records request under Florida State Statue 119. The question was how much money has the city of St. Pete. subsidized to the Rays in the past 4 years? The answer from Clay Smith Assistant Director Downtown Enterprise Facilities Departmen City of St. Petersburg.
FY07= $400,565.00 FY06= $ 391,765.00 FY05= $ 279,219.00 FY04= $ 305,198.00 Total $ 1,767,747.00.

We subsidize the St. Petersburg Grand Prix each year and that is about $ 160,000.00. None of the sports projects brings money to St. Petersburg the Taxpayers are paying for because it is Mayor Bakers hobby. You can get information At City Clerks Office 893-7447. Still waiting on subsidized money for Bay Walk? Bakers follies.

It seems that the Times has already, and clearly plans to continue to, invest a lot of inches in support of this scam.

Then again, I’m guessing the naming rights to this latest taxpayer-funded boondoggle, will be less than what they’re paying to Tampa for the forum.

Ooppps, have I said too much?

Let me see if I have this straight…

The Rays want to enter into an agreement for a 30-year lease to help us recover the cost of the Trop... Make claims that it will bring economic growth and lots of jobs… The voters say “NO”… But the criminals… err politicians, say, “screw you” to the voters and do it anyway…

Then…

The economic growth doesn’t happen, the jobs don’t happen… and the Rays produce a sub-par team resulting in low attendance…

Now…

The Rays want to renege on their deal… leave the taxpayers holding the bag on the remaining debt… build a new stadium with no parking… and want the taxpayers to cover that cost as well… with the promise of economic growth and lots of jobs… AND… build 900 more empty, over-priced condo’s to go with the thousands we have now… and an entertainment complex just a few steps away from the one we have now… that’s failing.

Hmmmmmm… I wonder what the criminals’… errr… politicians will do!

[Jon McPhee]

Maybe the alliteration is silly,but I have to ask: Why have we mostly skipped to the "weather" questions, as in debating how hot the cheap seats will be in August and the velocity of hot air from council and consultants, and just skipped over the "whether" question, as in why the heck are we seriously debating the color choices for this "exciting new concept" rather than just blowing raspberries at the cheap-suit crooks who are sending us this next letter from the Ordolian minister of finance?

I just heard the chief front man for the team, speaking on FOX News, that bastion of unbiased bombast, use the "B" word (as in Billion) for the total cash flux of this chapter of the long-running Rays ripoff -- what a surprise, twice the initial estimate.

I tried to find parking around Wrigley Field for decades, walking sometimes miles to find a legal street parking place where the street kids and streetfront neighbors didn't charge a "toll" to keep my car from getting trashed or towed. That's just the tiniest tip of the miseries this Trump-trap will bring to us.

Of course, the question who is the "we" in our thoroughly modern city was answered in Orwell's "Animal Farm:" All animals are equal, but some are more equal than others.

[Ed]

One has to hope that someone is going to do a thorough economic and fiscal analysis on this proposal to include a variety of alternatives such as letting the Rays move to a city that has yet to be victimized by a Major League Baseball team.

It appears the city is being asked to (1) give away one piece of prime real estate, (2) sell off another, and (3) earmark taxes from the real estate sold -- all of this for the benefit of wealthy private individuals (owners of the Rays) who plan to invest no funds of their own whatsoever. All of this because the Rays do not wish to honor their prior obligations to the taxpayers. In fact, if this deal goes through, the taxpayers will also be stuck with paying off millions of dollars in loans on a facility (the Trop)scheduled to be razed because the Rays are tired of using it.

It is hard to believe that this proposal is being considered seriously -- the Rays already fleeced the taxpayers in this area big time -- are they really ready to be taken again.

[Truth]

Good stuff, John and Ed. We should prepare for the onslaught of marketing designed to push this “quickly” past the eyes of the taxpayers.

There may indeed be some “new jobs” coming to the area attached to this.

But those “new jobs” will be professional bloggers, media hacks, and marketing firms designed to confuse, cloud, and otherwise distort the facts and long-term effects of this boondoggle.

[guy]

The Ray's and Mayor Baker have taken a real bad idea, and compounded it with worse scenario's just to prove they never are wrong.
The sail is really the worst practicle thing I have ever seen.
Stick to the law books fellows.

[CJ]

You all keep talking about who benefits financially. So they own a multi-million dollar franchise that, if successful, will make money. And we will have a great team if that happens. Don’t you want a great team? Franchise? So what if they make money? If they produce, we all benefit, right?

What about the people who benefit from having a beautiful stadium, a beautiful down town, and from more revenue for our city to spend? We benefit from a quality of life that is brought to our growing city. There is a quality of life product here that is hard to determine a value for and you benefit from (sorry it is dollar bills which is all you seem to be concerned about.

If you don't want baseball, then say it. If you want an underachieving franchise and city, then say it. But, if you want progress and a better quality of life, educate yourself and see if this is truly a great decision. I believe it is, but you need to make that decision on truth and facts, not assumptions and poorly written blogs.

You are making assumptions before you read the facts. Calm down and be smart about this. Don't just run your mouth, accuse people of breaking laws, say the jobs will be bloggers and not legit jobs that will come here, and continue to be stuck with the same concerns and issues that date back decades ago. We need progress for our city and our team.

FYI, when you talk about bloggers coming here and not creating real jobs and revenue, do you not think the Times benefits some kind of $$$ because of this blog? That you are contributing to?? Wow, someone is making money off of you. You should stop supporting this blog and vote to bring down the progress of the Times!! Greedy, money hungry business men. I digress.

You all are adults, right? Then please act like one. Stop acting like a child who cries because they don't know why mommy and daddy are giving the new baby attention and not you. Just as our parents raised children to become great people, we need to raise our city from the infant and immature city it is to become a major league city. You are not being neglected, you are expected to be adults who can think and educate themselves. Not just cry… like children.

[Don Mott]

There are two major problems among the many involved with this deal. First the taxpayers are being told that there will be no new taxes to finance this fiasco, but they never said that existing taxes would not be used! Read between the lines! Secondly the grand predictions of future revenue and econmic growth the Trop property will produce are just that, grand predictions that more than likely will never reach the potential predicted. And if the 'predicted' revenues aren't met who foots the tab? The taxpayers of course. I won't even get into the laughable parking situation.

[Don Mott]

What about the people who benefit from having a beautiful stadium, a beautiful down town, and from more revenue for our city to spend? We benefit from a quality of life that is brought to our growing city. There is a quality of life product here that is hard to determine a value for and you benefit from and you benefit from Excuse me CJ but are you from Mars? Just who benefits? Not Joe six-pack who is having trouble keeping up with taxes and insurance. So why should his tax money be used to benefit you or anyone elses quality of life? And don't even mention the no new tax "promise" because the taxpayers of St. Pete will pay in the long run. Will local residents benefit as well? Not unless they; A) like parades of vehicles looking for places to park or B) rent their lawns to parkers.

Either CJ works in the Rays front office, or simply hasn't a clue about the real world.

Hate to break this to you Virginia... but NO, there isn't a Santa Claus. Your mom and dad had to pay for that stuff too!

[CJ]

Okay, so your reasons against this proposal are that there is no Santa Claus and that I am from Mars. Great argument. And, again, I don't work for the Rays. I guess educated arguments and debates aren't in your plans for opposing this proposal. Well then. Nanu Nanu and Ho Ho Ho!!! Please just educate yourselves about this and stop relying on childish disputes.

[Ed]

Why should a business that is owed by multi-millionaires and that employs a small number of people paid millions of dollars and a large number of people paid minimum wage receive any public subsidy for the facilities used in their business operations?

Why should a beautiful piece of waterfront property be removed from public use?

Why are the leaders of St. Petersburg so lame that they have to depend on the owners of a professional sports team for development ideas?

I find it hard to believe that there are no alternative uses for the waterfront site. The St. Louis Gateway arch cost $30 million and over 1,000,000 people a year ride to the top. Why not come up with an idea for something to be built on the public land to benefit the public and attract tourists all year round.

As far as the Trop site; if it is really worth a lot of money, why not wait the 20 years until the Rays lease is over and sell it at that time with the proceds to benefit the city instead of a small group of individuals.

CJ,

Your biggest and most obvious problem is, that you believe that anyone who doesn’t agree with YOU, is either uneducated, old, or just a moron. I expect you to accuse us at any moment now, of wanting the terrorists to win and being un-American.

It’s really quite simple. Life is bigger than having a “Great Team” to cheer for, CJ, and it’s far more complicated than nifty marketing phrases, pie in the sky promises, and visions of grandeur.

Quality of Life – to the vast majority of people – is not about having a beautiful, taxpayer-funded sports stadium to drive past, or catch a glimpse of on ESPN… it’s about having a job, a home, perhaps a family, a sense of security, a feeling of accomplishment and pride about their life, maybe a nice car, a boat, a camper… and the ability to know that their government is morally, fiscally, and socially responsible enough to not screw them out of any of that.

Life is also about learning from our mistakes… and you may be too young to even know this… but in Pinellas County, we’ve been down this road many, many, many times before. This is a farce. It will not bring the economic growth it promises, it will not bring the jobs it promises, it will not result is a better baseball team to cheer for.

It will bring temporary construction jobs that will go predominantly to low-paid illegal migrant workers who send 80% of their earnings back to their country… it will result in money in the pockets of the owners, and taxes on the backs of the citizens’… period.

By the way, how are things going with that whole lower insurance rate promise?

[CJ]

Ed,

“Why should a beautiful piece of waterfront property be removed from public use?”

I’m sorry. I didn’t realize that replacing a baseball park for another baseball park limited the public’s use of the first baseball park. Wow.

“Why are the leaders of St. Petersburg so lame that they have to depend on the owners of a professional sports team for development ideas?”

Again, the same mind set. They are “depending” on them. This is a proposal and a darn good one. It is someone’s idea. Don’t chastise people and leaders for someone creativity. If you don’t like it, then don’t like it. But don’t say that someone is lame for a simple proposal.

“I find it hard to believe that there are no alternative uses for the waterfront site”

It isn’t that there aren’t any other alternatives. This is just ONE alternative. They could make this a park or a parking lot or a school or anything they want to. This is just one choice. Again, it’s fine if you just don’t like it. But don’t not trust it until you have the facts.

“As far as the Trop site; if it is really worth a lot of money, why not wait the 20 years until the Rays lease is over and sell it at that time with the proceds to benefit the city instead of a small group of individuals.”

This is a benefit to the city but I don’t think you feel this benefits you. You know, I am totally fine with that. I think people try and see this as only a benefit to a “small group of individuals” but this benefits home owners, quality of the city, and many more things than just the owner. Don’t assume it only benefits them.

[Don Mott]

CJ, I thought my arguments were educated yet you failed to address them. And while we are on the subject of arguments I have not seen where you have demonstrated a realistic, honest reason for how this will benefit everyone other than your quality of life hogwash. Which homeowners will benefit and exactly how will they benefit? Exactly how will the city benefit? Adding debt to the cities budget with very little or no return to the common citizens is not good fiscal management. Please explain how this is fiscally sound and good for the taxpayers of St. Pete. Are these questions educated enough for you? Or are you not educated enough to give educated answers? Nanu Nanu

[CJ]

“Your biggest and most obvious problem is, that you believe that anyone who doesn’t agree with YOU, is either uneducated, old, or just a moron…...”

Okay, I don’t agree with you but I’ll take that into consideration (self-analysis). I do have faith in this proposal and this plan and agree with the potential benefits. I won’t let anyone disagree with me with poor reasoning and continue stiring a pot they shouldn’t. I would like to see the actual negative before I let people just create them, which is the majority of the arguments I am seeing. Ghosts, Myths and Stories. Not facts or numbers. That is my reason for doubting people’s judgment on this plan.

“I expect you to accuse us at any moment now, of wanting the terrorists to win and being un-American.”

No, I don’t think you are un-American. That isn’t what this is about.

“It’s really quite simple. Life is bigger than having a “Great Team” to cheer for, CJ, and it’s far more complicated than nifty marketing phrases, pie in the sky promises, and visions of grandeur.”

Okay, good point. Life is bigger that this. Far bigger. But are you telling me your “life” is in danger because of this? Do you really think this negatively affects your “life” that much?? This may change it. And maybe for the better. To me, increasing the value of someone’s home and city and environment does increase the quality of their life.

“Quality of Life – to the vast majority of people – is not about having a beautiful, taxpayer-funded sports stadium to drive past, or catch a glimpse of on ESPN… it’s about having a job, a home, perhaps a family, a sense of security, a feeling of accomplishment and pride about their life, maybe a nice car, a boat, a camper… and the ability to know that their government is morally, fiscally, and socially responsible enough to not screw them out of any of that. “

Whoa! There it is. “Taxpayer-funded sports stadium to drive past.” You are ignoring the statement that there are no new taxes. It is not funded by the Taxpayers!! Where does the money come from? $150 million from the team, $60 mill from the state, and the rest from the sold and developed land where the stadium sits. This doesn’t account for the extra money the city can make from the sale of the land. It doesn’t go to the team. It goes to….. the taxpayers!!! And, the city!!! You do the math. $450 mill for the new stadium. $700 mill or more for the sale of the land the stadium is on. Al Lang is estimated in as the difference. We have better a better city at equal costs. So what is truly your issue with this?

“Life is also about learning from our mistakes… and you may be too young to even know this… but in Pinellas County, we’ve been down this road many, many, many times before.”

You assume I am way to young to know about life to make an argument. And when you talk about being down a road many, many, many, many times before, I have learned from previous mistakes as anyone has. But, did we win a Super Bowl after Raymond James was built? Yes. How about a Stanley Cup after the Ice Palace/SPT Forum? Yes. We are learning from the past here and developing a plan for a successful franchise. If that isn’t what is important to you, then that is fine. Just say that a new stadium isn’t important to you rather than explain why you don’t trust or believe this plan. The plan is solid. Your faith and interests aren’t. That’s totally fine.

“This is a farce. It will not bring the economic growth it promises, it will not bring the jobs it promises, it will not result is a better baseball team to cheer for.”

Again. Lack of faith and interest causes you to have a negative view for everything they are saying. It isn’t the numbers, money, or even taxes you are upset about. You are the person who was cheated on who has trust issues. You can have love again, you just need to open yourself up. Self analysis is always something you need to be good at. I would recommend it. I don’t see stats, numbers, or proof that a new stadium doesn’t turn this around. Ask the Mariners, Tigers, Rockies, and several more positive examples. There are the ones that haven't worked such as the Pirates, but you'll fine way more successful ones than failures.

“It will bring temporary construction jobs that will go predominantly to low-paid illegal migrant workers who send 80% of their earnings back to their country… it will result in money in the pockets of the owners, and taxes on the backs of the citizens’… period.”

The first statistic but I doubt its accuracy. 80% of their earnings? Any they did say it will bring temporary jobs. But it will also bring perm jobs. Open your eyes. I am not disputing that you don’t have to agree with the plan, but don’t make statements that simply aren’t true out of spite!

“By the way, how are things going with that whole lower insurance rate promise?”

Good call. Our whole country is having problems with this and many other issues. But what did the Rays have to do with this?

Please make relevant arguments and points rather than just arbitrary assumptions derived from your emotional based experiences. Quality of life is more than just the stadium, as is this team and franchise. You can tie all your important things into this. People with have a job from this. There will be homes from this and other homes will increase in value. Take your family to a game rather than just sit at home, watch TV or play video games. A sense of security is something a team can’t solve and neither can anyone around you but yourself. Do something about that. A feeling of accomplishment and pride about your life is something your evaluate whether you own a mansion or a condo. A nice car you can enjoy driving to the game. Or maybe your boat?

Enjoy everything about life. Not just this. But there are many things that this will provide people. If it isn’t for you, that fine. But don’t say the plan is flawed when you aren’t interested in any plan like this. Just say you aren’t interested in this plan or find actual reasons why this won’t work. I am looking for you to disagree with me if you will. But dispute this plan with some validity, not counterfeit reasons for extinguishing someone’s researched design. Don’t be afraid of ghosts and don’t throw punches at the wind. Please, show me why this wouldn’t work.

[CJ]

Don,

Okay, I’ll address the issues…

“Excuse me CJ but are you from Mars?”

No.

“Just who benefits? “

Answered that one. See my last posting and/or read the rest of this one.

“So why should his tax money be used to benefit you or anyone elses quality of life?”

Again, the overwhelming majority of the money comes from the team and the sale of the land the stadium sits on. The small about the state is being asked to kick in is a small amount of the overall money. No new taxes. From this proposal, it won’t bring any new taxes, so no extra cost to Joe. Are you talking about existing tax money? I don’t know of any that are committed to being used in this plan. I don’t see any evidence that they will use it. Do you? If so, please inform me because that would be news to me. I am not assuming they might not ask to use it, I am just saying they have a plan where they don’t have to use it. If that plan is truly the plan, then we have no issues, right???? Again, facts and truths, not myths and assumptions.

“And don't even mention the no new tax "promise" because the taxpayers of St. Pete will pay in the long run.”
Had to because that is a part of the proposal. It is out there loud and clear. You just are not believing it. That’s fine, but that is your flaw in the dispute. How will taxpayers pay in the long run? Please explain.

“Will local residents benefit as well? Not unless they; A) like parades of vehicles looking for places to park or B) rent their lawns to parkers.”
Very disappointing. You are being one sided on this argument. I am willing to consider there might be flaws but I haven’t seen any yet. You are assuming there are flaws and living on your assumptions. I believe I covered all of these issues. Please read my last posting.

Now, your last posting.

“CJ, I thought my arguments were educated yet you failed to address them.”

See above.

“And while we are on the subject of arguments I have not seen where you have demonstrated a realistic, honest reason for how this will benefit everyone other than your quality of life hogwash.”

I believe the Rays took care of that for the most part in their plan. I interpreted that increasing value of a neighborhood or city increases the value of everyone in that neighborhood and city. I also have seen how people benefit in many ways other than money. Is that your true question?

“ Which homeowners will benefit and exactly how will they benefit?”

Again, increased value in a sinking market. Value in city, value in property, value in land.

“Exactly how will the city benefit?”
They can still sell the land for more than $700 mill and make profit. That goes to the city, not the team. Again, this is the cities decision and the voters decision. You just choose if you want to benefit from this or keep things the way that are. Progressive or stagnant city is the choice. You also become a place more attractive to a general population for a better quality of life.

“Adding debt to the cities budget with very little or no return to the common citizens is not good fiscal management.”

Okay, some truth to this on your part. I don’t know enough to understand the debt you are talking about because I didn’t see any in their report. They could say that they will pay $10 million in rent a year to cover the payments on a loan to the city for $150 mill. But that would be paid back in 15 years by the team, not the tax payers. If you disagree with this, then that is your argument (which is what I am asking for). I am choosing to be on board if that is the plan. If you aren’t, then state that. Not just find ways to disagree with all of this. And please go to the meetings to find out if these are true concerns or just something you are worried about. I ask you to participate in this process, not just make up your mind before you do.
“Please explain how this is fiscally sound and good for the taxpayers of St. Pete.”

See above.

“Are these questions educated enough for you? Or are you not educated enough to give educated answers?”
Please give me reasons to debate with you rather than emotional based assumptions. I will say right now, I don’t have ALL the answers. No one truly does. I just want people to state their reasons of why they would oppose this so they can be either accommodated or rule unfeasible to this process. If they choose the latter, you have every reason to vote against it. Fair?

“Nanu Nanu”

That was a great show, wasn’t it?

[Mary Esther]

Last summer the hubby and I attended a few of the Devil Rays games simply because we both love baseball. During the lst game the thought came to mind that if we were not sitting in this air conditioned dome - even though it is not the most suitable dome in the country - we would never be able to sit and watch a baseball game in the hot, FL summer sun - and especially at our age.
I keep wondering why NO ONE is content w/what they have anymore - can't the Rays just relax and play ball? We were taught to use what we have until it can no longer be repaired - today it is definitely a throw away society and it is too bad because it certainly has not made people happier - in fact, quite the opposite!!

CJ,

I’ll follow your form to keep this simple.

“I would like to see the actual negative before I let people just create them”

The Trop, the team, and Bay walk… to name a few relative realities.

“Do you really think this negatively affects your “life” that much??”

It’s not about my life or YOUR life, it’s about OUR life. A gold bullet kills just as effectively and a brass one.

“To me, increasing the value of someone’s home and city and environment does increase the quality of their life.”

Clearly, you do not live in Florida or follow current events.

“…and the rest from the sold and developed land where the stadium sits.”

Just exactly who do you think owns that site? By the way, it isn’t the city. As for your visions of riches, I refer to my first answer.

Your entire next paragraph is just gobblygoop. That and a dime will get you… well, you know.

The one after that is just a poor attempt at psycho-fanatic… and frankly, a tad disturbing. You should see someone. Or just get over yourself.

“But it will also bring perm jobs.”

Would that be before or after the current jobs at the Trop – and those filling them - magically disappear? My numbers are accurate, and save the spite spin for the weak-minded.

“Our whole country is having problems with this and many other issues. But what did the Rays have to do with this?”

Wide-right… as in “Missed the point”… as for the rest… blah, blah, blah…

“But don’t say the plan is flawed”

Fine; This plan is “seriously” flawed.

[Andy G]

Dang, it's a blather fest.

[CJ]

Whoever that last post is from (not you Andy), you have summed up your arguments with “blah blah blah” and words such as “gobblygoop.”

Bottom line is again, I don’t see where the flaws lie in the proposal. Your argument of the Trop, team, and Bay walk has nothing to do with the current plan to improve downtown. But in light of your comments, this plan would actually improve all three of those things! (Better stadium, better team, more people to Baywalk, the Pier, Dahli, etc.) Still, I don’t see your arguments about the flaws in the proposal, which is what my statement was about. Getting frustrated with yourself? Starting to take things out of context? That trend continued.

“It’s not about my life or YOUR life, it’s about OUR life. A gold bullet kills just as effectively and a brass one.”

?????? Wow. I don’t even know where to go with that. The beauty of this that it is about my life and your life, NOT our life. We, as voters, choose for ourselves about our path. This is something that, in my opinion, will improve many people’s lives. I am voting for this if all circumstances stay the same. This will improve my life. You can choose to not let it improve yours.

“Clearly, you do not live in Florida or follow current events.”

Born and raised. Baby of Bayfront (right in the downtown area might I add). I might be in a different situation than you are right now and you might be in a different one than I am. I am not struggling right now, have a great quality of life, have a bright future here, and am happy with many things in life. But I am not settling at letting this life or these issues Florida is facing stand still. This is progress. More assumptions on your behalf. Geez.

“Just exactly who do you think owns that site? By the way, it isn’t the city. As for your visions of riches, I refer to my first answer.”
Man, seriously. Please stop making random remarks and have some validity to what you are talking about. You ask a question but don’t answer it.

“Your entire next paragraph is just gobblygoop. That and a dime will get you… well, you know. The one after that is just a poor attempt at psycho-fanatic… and frankly, a tad disturbing. You should see someone. Or just get over yourself.”

You’re argument seems to be slipping away and you are trying to make this personal. Sounds like you are treading water with your argument. Please keep on subject.
On perm jobs….”Would that be before or after the current jobs at the Trop – and those filling them - magically disappear?
You must not be doing your research. Go check out the new retail, restaurants, entertainment, etc that will be going up in addition to the stadium. That is the additional jobs. Not counting the transitioned jobs from the Trop to the new stadium. So I would say that would be after the current jobs at the Trop. Right?? Seriously……

“My numbers are accurate, and save the spite spin for the weak-minded.”

I didn’t see a single number or anything close in your arguments. And as for the “spite spin,” it is a legit point. The Rays biggest obstacle will be people like you (don’t take it personal, I mean in general). We were told “If you build it, they will come.” As the great Chris Thomas always said, “Who are THEY??” Namoli said that if we just put a team here, the downtown are will take care of itself. Restaurants will pop up and the downtown will be transformed. Did they do anything to progress that?? No, they didn’t. Did downtown re-develop itself? No. Namoli let us down, not Stu. This isn’t “Build it and they will come.” This is, “We will build it, we will make it happen.” They are setting up the downtown for us. So no, the spite thing isn’t a weak-minded spin. It is a reality. It is okay to be heartbroken, but don’t take it out on the next person. Learn from it and move on. Don’t embrace spite.

“Our whole country is having problems with this and many other issues. But what did the Rays have to do with this?”

As to having problems… “Wide-right… as in “Missed the point”… as for the rest… blah, blah, blah…”

Usually a debate is able to continue. You are consistently demonstrating your lack of ability to contribute to your opinion. I’ll assume you are running out of ammo to support it.
“Fine; This plan is “seriously” flawed.”

Another ending with, at best, no substantial points from you. Am I wrong here? Can I please get more feedback on this with legitimate points? People, I am not fighting against you. I am fighting for us to communicate. Hard to communicate with “blah blah blah” and “gobblygoop.” I am always ready to talk about this. Unfortunately, some aren’t.

"Hard to communicate with “blah blah blah” and “gobblygoop.”

Then stop offering it.

Dang, CJ, you were up late last night. I hope you get paid overtime. Listen, sport, regurgitating the same rhetoric in hopes of success by attrition is getting tired. Go back to the boss and get a new set of talking points. However, in the interest of serve and volley, we’ll try this again.

“Your argument of the Trop, team, and Bay walk has nothing to do with the current plan to improve downtown.”

The Trop, the Team, and Bay Walk (currently for sale) WAS the plan to improve downtown… and it failed. Moving it all 10-feet to the east will not change the results.

“Getting frustrated with yourself?”

Save it sport…

“I am voting for this if all circumstances stay the same. This will improve my life. You can choose to not let it improve yours.”

That’s the beauty of our Democracy. And to think; all I’ve had to do was go to a baseball game to have a better life… damn; why wasn’t I told this earlier! Lay off the Kool Aid kid, it will not serve you well.

The most fascinating, and insightful part of your next section is…count ‘em (I, I, I, I, I)… nuff said about that.

The citizens of Pinellas County own the Trop site, not the City of St. Pete.

“Go check out the new retail, restaurants, entertainment, etc that will be going up in addition to the stadium. That is the additional jobs.”

Would that be before or after all the jobs at the failing Baywalk – and the people holding them –magically disappear? Come kid, you’re becoming a tad high-maintenance here.

“This is, “We will build it, we will make it happen.”

Sorry – and don’t take this personal – but you are very naive if you believe this. By they way, a hot burner is still hot the second time you touch it.

“You are consistently demonstrating your lack of ability to contribute to your opinion. I’ll assume you are running out of ammo to support it.”

Allow me to take a guess at exactly what you were thinking right before you wrote that. ‘Damn, he’s not buying it’ Close?

“I am always ready to talk about this. Unfortunately, some aren’t.”

Conflict in thought much? You’re always ready for someone to agree with you… you mean.

[CJ]

Don,

My goal is to get you to share with me where you think THIS plan is lacking enough to deem unfeasible. Not previous ones. You are consistently giving me more heartbroken reasons on why you won’t ever “love again” and how you have seen all this before.

I am encouraging you to ask these questions and to raise your voice over your concerns. My goal is not to huddle around people who agree with me because that isn’t what I want to do. I would rather spend my days with spiteful people like yourself to attempt to bring their TRUE concerns to the table (as we did in the other post and you suddenly stop responding there. So you run over here to continue your antics.). Not just heartbroken banter.

I don’t know if a baseball game magically changes someone’s life, but we all have our first baseball game story or fond memories of playing/watching the game. Sharing the experience of a baseball game/team with your father, family, and friends does improve your quality of life. It just does. If anyone reads this and agrees, please share with us the story of your first game experience or any great baseball story. This is something that we carry forever and in fact, Don, improves our lives.

Yes, I will talk about the “I” in this conversation. As a citizen of St. Petersburg “I” have a vote. This is just about me AS MUCH as it is about every other person. Don’t discount my argument for talking about my perspective. Are you discounting everyone else’s perspective other than yourself? You have every right to do that, but don’t talk about community then because that isn’t what you are representing. I am. I want the community to participate this and see if it is feasible for them. That is why I am opening communicating about this. Not just telling people to not drink the “Kool Aid” or degrading people by calling them “sport” or being “high maintenance” for proving a point. I get you are watching out for number one. I am watching out for the best interest, period.

Okay, fine. The citizens own the Trop. The citizens also are being asked to make the decision. So what is your issue with this? Either way, my point is that neither you nor do I pocket this money. It is spent on our city. I believe this helps our city. Plain and simple.

I am not naïve if I believe this. I would be naïve if the same person tried to sell the same thing to me. “Fool me once, shame on you. Fool me twice, shame on me.” I would be naïve if Namoli were to stroll back up to me and say “You know, I messed up last time. Let me try that again.” Again, we are talking about love in the base sense of things. If a beautiful woman were to cheat on me, I wouldn’t trust that person. But if a different beautiful woman walked up to me, what right to I have to EXPECT that she will do the same to me?? This goes beyond that. This isn’t just promises and a fly-by-the-seat hope. This is a long, detailed plan that is not yet complete. But from what I see, they are giving me every reason to have faith in them. I am not spiteful, spurned, nor am I going to judge others based on other people’s failures. If we all did that, this would be a very sad world. I hope you don’t live in that world.

Do I want you to “buy” it? No. I want you to help me. You did in the other post by getting down to your real issues with this plan (lack of trust in the plan and wanting to see the numbers of improving the city and downtown). So you are just wrong about that. But this is another way you are trying to shut off communication. More questions, no answers. Sound like your vision of a politician and this plan. Self analysis. I don’t want you to buy this. I want you contribute to this and hopefully see the vision of this. It is fine if you don’t but please don’t try.

And in regards to your thought about people agreeing/disagreeing with me. I am not expecting anyone to agree with me. I want to understand why someone wouldn’t so I can gain perspective. I am for this and you clearly aren’t. Fine. And from what you have demonstrated, the “why” is because you are spurned and bitter about the past, in turn forecasting doubt on everyone around you, including your city. Doubt and be spiteful all you want. But please debate, not just continue to be heartbroken.

[Don Mott]

CJ The post you responded to was not mine, just wanted to clear that up.

[CJ]

Don,

Got it. My bad. Thank you for your opinion and discussion on this. I will consider everything you have contributed to this string. I still will be voting for this as things stand right now. I do agree they will have a challenge with filling in the bay. But if they can make this work with reasonable finances then I will be voting for this. I just hope people make a decision based on what they can do, not what people have done. People need to chose if they approve THIS plan then make their choice. Thanks Don.

[Kay]

CJ is really thick in the noggin'!

Kay

[Ross]

This is off topic yet not off subject. I support the new field if the Rays pay for all of it. The parking and fill problems could possibly be solved with a lot more money by elevating the field so no fill is needed and parking under the feild. How many spaces can you get in 10 acres. Is this practical probably not, is it doable probably so.

[Joe]

When will the "sheeple" absolutely and unequivocally learn to say no to these bureaucrats and their cockamamie schemes. By allowing our so-called leaders to foster their ludicrous redevelopment plan for the "Dome" site is to give credence to the "new stadium" plan. The very tactics that a salespersons use. There should not be any discussion about building a baseball stadium that we do not need at any price, especially for 1/2 billion dollars. Only in St. Petersburg does such irresponsibility get rewarded ... and common sense gets ignored by our city officials who treat citizens like human cattle.

[craig]

The only consideration that should be made concerning the Devil Rays extortion attempt/proposal, i.e., build it or we'll move, is who in the city administration allowed this to happen. Furthermore, why are we not holding those city officials in charge accountable for their actions -- or inactions. After all the commotion about building the dome, how is it that the city has the audacity and/or ignorance ... to suggest we build another "loser" with taxpayors' monies? Let us not discount the fact that these so-called leaders are trying to sell this idea when the economy is in a "vicious" cycle bordering recession. How much incompetence, arrogance, and subjugation are we going to take?

CJ, I do not know what you do for a living or what your credentials are, but I am in the business of mental health analysis, and I have to say that you are the "poster child" for delusional. Your very blatant "Pollyannish" attitude is a giveaway that you have a problem. However, to be fair, it could mean that you are working for the cause of positive "spin". Please consult with a mental health professional and/or refer to the DSM-IV for "self-diagnosis".