What next on taxes?

Florida voters spoke loudly and clearly Tuesday when they approved a higher tax exemption for owner-occupied ("homestead") homes. The old tax break was simple -- no taxes on the first $25,000 of a home's value. The new tax break is a little more complicated, but it works out to about, heck, let's call it a tax break on about $40,000 worth a home's value.

The other big changes in Amendment 1, don't forget:

-- Portability of your tax break when you move to a new home. From now on, you can take the same tax break that you've built up over the years under the Save Our Homes rule in Florida.

-- A 10% annual cap on how fast NON-homestead property values can increase. That is not as good a deal as homeowners have, but it still is protection against the big double-digit run-ups in taxable values that occurred in recent years.

-- A business tax break that protects the first $25,000 of equipment ("tangible personal property") against taxation.

Now that we've done that,  what else should we do? Florida still has big tax problems. The existing system is unfair and Amendment 1, if anything, only increases that unfairness.

Some have suggested that Florida simply abolish property taxes on all homesteads. Admittedly, that has the virtue of simplicity, but it hits everybody else even harder.

There's also this interesting "1.35% solution" that is gathering support. The basic idea is that property taxes in Florida could not exceed 1.35% of a property's taxable value each year. This would require a real cut in local revenues -- I've seen estimates that local taxes currently average between 1.65% and 1.8%... a cut of something like $8-billion out of the roughly $30-billion collected in property taxes annually in Florida. On the other hand, all existing tax exemptions are preserved, and hence the existing inequities in the system as well.

Here's the group's web site: http://www.saveourhomesforever.com/index.htm.

Comments? What do YOU think we should do now?

Comments

[Gigi]

As an elected official, we need to encourage our residents to get VERY involved in their city's budget process in the upcoming cycle. It won't be pretty!!

[Larry]

Howard, I feel that, while the voters did approve the amendment, they also understand the inequities of the system and want it to change. They just do not want to pay anymore than they are already paying. I believe that we should look further into the services tax loopholes that exist such as taxes on professional services. I recently visited another state where everyone pays sales taxes on food and drugs. I believe we should pay more attention to the current Tax Reform Commission and their recommendations. The property tax situation in Florida has gotten out of hand due to the escalation of value, especially for non-hometeaders and second homeowners who it is hard to feel sorry for. We desparately need reform of the system. We only perpetuated the inequities by our vote yesterday.

[Howard Troxler]

Larry, I certainly agree about the sales-tax loopholes. I don't have the numbers in front of me but I think we we closed them all, and just had sort of a universal and fair tax on CONSUMPTION in this state, we could go a long way toward eliminating property taxes, or at least correcting our problems with them.

The politics will be that everybody who gets a tax loophole now will label the closing of that loophole as a "tax increase."

[guy]

Howard, The problem that we face is one of mismanagement by our elected officials.
There is no reason whatsoever that our taxes and insurance bill are so dramatically out of whack.
Here in St. Pete we have a codes department that no one can even estimate what it actually costs to operate. And, It serves absolutely no purpose. Yes they cut back on it 30% or so they say.
But I still see all these new cars snooping around the neighborhood.
Two good men or women could handle this department, and we could transfer these funds to the police, who are fighting a losing battle with crime on our streets.
New Stadium HA.
We voted to keep our school tax.
We have so many Attorney's on the city payroll it is obscene.

How about assistant mayor's,managers.etc.
These problems also filter on up through the County Government.
I worked as a Vocational Instructor for the County and could write a novel about wasted money and incompetant administration.
Howard Run for Mayor

[guy]

Laughing ~~ I'll get Crist to endorse you !!!!!!!

[Sean]

It is apparent that the majority of homeowners in Florida are in need of property tax relief. I try to stay optomistic about the efforts behind Amendment 1, but cannot. It is absolutely insane to place this much tax burden upon the backs of homeowners. Taxation should be based upon consumption, in the form of sales tax and not based upon the right of homeownership. The creation/addition of a sales tax and the elimination of the property tax is the only true solution.

[jj]

I agree with Sean that taxes should be based on cunsumption, if they are so worried about fund, i think they should dramatically lower the property taxes and increase the state sales tax by half a penny to a penny to make up the $30 billion in property taxes that they will lose. With all the people that live in Florida and come to visit, this may actually increase the $30billion they need.

[HCB]

The trouble is there are too many people wanting too much. They want roads and schools and bridges and water and so on. The ONLY answer is to reduce demand for that kind of stuff. Cutting the government payroll is peanuts. We have to cut the number of roads and schools and other REAL expenses.

St Pete had the right idea in about 1975 when the council came to final reading on an ordinance to limit growth. The deal was simple: No one can move in unless someone dies or moves out. And everyone who was there less than a year had to go back to from where they came.

But - the commission bowed to pressure and the ordinance was not adopted. It's still a good idea.

[Joe]

Howard, business and rental property owner's need relief. A1 passing will have a significant negative effect on the Florida economy and tourism. The 10% cap means nothing. It caps the assessed VALUE increase, but it does nothing to stop actual local govt tax rate increases. So, think about the impact... When businesses and rental property taxes skyrocket, the expenses must be passed on to an extent or the businesses will leave Florida if bad enough. When the expenses are passed on, local rents go up, vacationer's rents go up, retail prices go up, etc, etc. Tourism ulitmately suffers, which our state cannot afford.

Simultaneously, A1 hurts both first time buyers and incoming population because they will be paying market value taxes and those tax will be at a higher rate due to the effect mentioned above - all the so-called savings the homesteaders capture will ultimately be passed to business, rentals, and first timers and new residents through higher rates.

So, think about all that - Florida historically has thrived on both POPULATION GROWTH and TOURISM. Above I've outlined why both will suffer - tourism expenses will increase and potential new population will look elsewhere rather than facing a huge tax bill.

Some relief for homesteaders sounds fine, but it actually will ultimately significantly negatively impact our economy . As an owner of both a homestead and non-homestead properties, I expect to see a significant net increase in my taxes from the effects of A1. As I said above, I will either need to pass all or part of those costs on or look to invest in another state. I am not complaining so much about my personal situation, but more trying to convey on a global level to your readers that there are many indiviuals and all businesses facing these same issues. The sum of all of this equals real problems for Florida in the short and long term that everyone needs to understand.

Non-homestead property needs tax relief.

Thank you.

[Rene]

As a 20-something recent college graduate and working professional, I feel very strongly about equitable taxation for first-time homeowners. I really hope that portability gets thrown out as unconstitutional and SOH is overhauled to more fairly benefit all property owners.
How can homesteaders really feel that it's fair for young people to pick up their tab? We're at the low end of our income potential, paying college loans, saving for a home and a family. Many of us have lived in Florida long enough to have racked up a SOH benefit, except we'd have had to purchase a home when we were in middle or high school! My fiance and I would love to buy, but factoring in property taxes and insurance (another issue entirely) has made ownership too much of a stretch right now. We'll gladly pay our share - I just wish more Floridians felt that way.

[Dave]

Please keep in mind that Homesteaded property owners who purchased from 2005 on are in about the same position as non-Homesteaded properties. They purchased at the height of the market, and are paying the highest tax rate. Amendment 1 did nothing for them because they have no credits for portablity.

[ds]

While I can appreciate the fact that people needed something to keep gov't from taking advantage of huge fluctuations in the market, there are more equitable solutions out there than SOH and the inequities that it has created. Whether you are a long time resident, born and raised or newcomer, you shouldn't have to shoulder an unequal burden for that reason only. The constitution of the united states guarantees us the right to live where we want and to not be treated differently than other residents. Consumption taxes across the board are much more fair - especially in a state like Florida. It won't tourism. People have said for years that every time Disney etc. raise their prices that it's all going to end and it just doesn't, and won't, happen. This state can't survive once all businesses, younger people, and others leave. Some people may want that but be careful what you wish for. The reality would be much different. This type of issue should NEVER EVER be included as part of a state's constitution. And we will pay a high price for it if the courts don't ultimately shoot the whole thing down.

[Dave]

Rene,

Wait a couple years to buy. Merril Lynch predicts up to a 30% decline in property values over the next couple years. I believe that in Florida it will be worst because Amendment 1 gave no relief to first-time home buyers. I Florida, the housing market is driven by first-time home buying and the state tax shifting is killing the demand by making home ownership unaffordable.

[Holly]

I can only hope that the Florida Tax Watch group will sue the State of Florida for this Amendment. Charlie's plan does NOT fix the mess; he's only managed to mess it up more.

[Brian]

Easy Solution. Tax properties on their CURRENTLY appraised values instead of the original buying price. "Old Man Winters" is paying $300 in taxes on his house he bought in '72. Too bad this is Florida, and something like that will never happen, and our public services will continue to register near the bottom of the country.

[Brian Again]

Forgot to mention: If the idea above is followed, most people's taxes will go down, and the ones that do go up need not increase that much.

[denny stypinski]

Send them back to the table. I was displeased that the ammendment passed but it only speaks to how desparate we all are for true reform. Problem now is they believe they have done their jobs and this subject will take a backseat for longer than many of us can afford. For me and my family, the benefit is about $20 per month. It's almost embarrasing. Relative to the increases we've all born over the past few years, it truely is disheartening. Our school system is less than pathetic, yet so much of our taxes are slated for the same system. I've lived here for almost 25 years and refuse to subject my children to a system that consistently rates in the bottmom 10% nationally, and has for those 25 years. Pathetic is an understatement. I work with those fresh out of college and feel sorry that so many will probably never be able to afford a home here. But if they can, will be married to their mortgages, California style living. Lets face it, other than the weather, beaches, and the water, this place has little to offer. Low wages, exhorbitant insurance rates with no end in sight, horrible education system, and taxes that shoould make some of this go away but probably never will. They need to go back to work and make it appealing to live here. Make it affordable before those that make the state click, the middle class, have no choice but to get out. Before big business looks hard at the little we have to offer their employess and decides not to bring their business to Florida. For me, unfortunatley medical circumstances prevent me from seeking employment elsewhere, or my family and I would be gone tomorrow.

[Tim]

The Freshwater Fish Commission has a SWAT Team. 20 block long Madeira Beach pays for TWO Sheriif's deputies to drive back and forth. Ten's of thousands are young Black men are in jail for minor drug offenses. 110 people are arrested at Gasparilla for being drunk. Almost every county in the state has a brand new multi-million dollar courthouse. There's a sign posted at Fort DeSoto that says: CAUTION. Un-escorted wild nature area. (It points to the beach) Even the most stringent law and order types are finally getting tired of paying billions to be "protected" by unionized government workers who'll do anything to keep their jobs.

[david]

The voters clearly dont understand the big picture.

Non homesteaded residents are going to pick up the bill here.

I am already paying $23,000 while my neighbour pays $8800 and i moved to the property before them!!

The economy will definitely suffer as i am now certain non homesteaded individuals will have no option but to sell.

[Will.I.Am]

They should eliminate all property tax and go to a straight sales tax.

[Bill]

The universities and colleges will be hit hard by this. If you think you can transfer to the university from community college next year, guess again. 8% tuition increase, enrollment caps, closed sections, no teachers. Young people will move away no houses no schools no jobs e.g. no tax base

[Will.I.Am]

A1 is a joke and should not have passed a vote. The Senate and House + Crist did very little to resolve the issue. I hope SOH is strike down in court - forcing this to be revisisted again by our lawmakers.

As it stands now, the 60% of people who voted for A1 just ensured our lawmakers will do nothing else to resolve this problem.

[Bland]

My prediction is that the petition for the 1.35% limit on property tax assesses value will be on the ballot in 2009 or 2010.

After it is passed and I think it will. The House and Senate will be “forced” to come up with alternative means of taxing and do away with or significantly lower all property taxes. Answer, an amendment to establish income tax.

This entire mess started in 2000 through 2005 with the run up in real estate values 15% -25% annually. Then the rascals (local governments) kept increasing spending at an exponential rate, 120% over this period of time. Problem, household incomes only increased 38% during the same period. We spent more than we can make. This is what caused the class warfare between neighbors on SOH. It was the spending, not the law.

[A Beneficiary of Amendment 1]

First, put people into power locally who will spend money carefully and sparingly. Will a project benefit a few or most? If not most don't make everyone pay for it.

Second, eliminate all exemptions. Spread the tax burden fairly.

Third, use impact and use fees to help place the cost where it belongs.

The real issue is the total amount spent by local government. No matter how we divide it up somebody has to pay. And making someone else pay more than their fair share sure seems like a neat thing to do... until that person is us.

And Charlie has always been long on flash and short on substance. Why should we expect better of the pretty-boy?

[Rich]

I hope the Tax Reform Commision comes up with a viable solution for the tax inequities we face. They are our only hope. They should not tax the essentials in life (i.e. food, clothing, and shelter) up to a ceratin dollar amount. Tax on a home purchase over $250,000 should be a one-time tax. Make up the difference by taxing consumption. End all the loopholes for the services industry. There is no reason I should have to pay 6 times the tax my neighbor pays when we use the same services and live in identical houses the only difference being when we purchased.

[Howard Troxler]

Thanks for the great comments so far. I share the speculation expressed by a couple of folks that the Legislature will be prone NOT to do any more than this -- just as it has not been prone to do anything more than its insurance "fix" in early 2007.

I talked with House Speaker Rubio a little while ago and will quote him in my column tomorrow -- he says this should be a beginning, not an end, and predicts people will be pretty ticked off in September when they get their next tax bill and it really hasn't gone down much.

Folks... as hard as this is to say, and as hard as this is to take... if you truly expect any further action before "putting them all back in office", you are wishful thinking.

This was a well-done rouse that actually resulted in squat for you. It will take about 6-months to get it, but it's coming.

Wake the hell up.

[John]

Our local commissioners increased spending so much since 2000 that property taxes have doubled. For many people, property taxes have more than doubled in just 5 years. The commissioners pet projects made them new friends (and campaign contributors), and their increase in gov. size bought them added supporters to help keep them in office.
The 1.35% aims to get spending back to the 2000 level (gov. worked fine then, remember?)and keep it there, adjusted for pop. increases and inflation - never any more, unless the voters approve a special tax increase.
Unlike Amend. 1, the 1.35% petition will greatly help small businesses and new home buyers. Today, the commissioners can still take all the tax payer money they want, they'll just increase the mill rate. 1.35% rolls back the crazed spending and holds it there. It's not perfect but it's better than anything the politicians will offer.

There would have been no issue if State, County and local Govts would have kept their budget growth = to a resonable inflation index (+ growth in properties for new developments). Instead they greedily took the 100% of the property value growth and didn't think about what happens when the values level out (or worse decline).

Instead of just taking a resonable collection (one where residents could believe in the efficient use of our tax dollars) they were content to collect more and more. So we are in a place where we hear that we are not going to have fire-fighters or police or parks, when in we had all of this 5 years ago before the crazy run up in revenues, heck, we are barely going back 1 year in the tax revenues after this change.

2008's collections is where the big change is going to happen when the values are falling for all of the non homesteaded properties and ironically the SOH people will be still be going up 3%. but I expect the greedy govts to just raise the rates to get the same amount (which would have been fine if they had lowered the rates in 2002,2003,2004,2005 when the revenues where skyrocketing due to property values)

We did not need a Constitutional Amendment to lower taxes! This is a costly lesson in civics we will soon learn.

[Jim]

How long before we hear about the sharp cookies who will buy a run down property for next to nothing, then register it as homestead, then buy a MacMansion and flip the homestead exemption over?

What mechanism is there to stop that?

Does anyone care?

[Ben]

I was only 50% certain I would vote Yes until my neighbor who's a teacher gave me the boost to 100% by giving me a lecture on how the tax cut would hurt the children. Well, the people who are strongly opposed to A1 are teachers and city/county workers who have been robbing us for so long. It's time we get something back. It may be a meager $240 but it's money in my pocket. Floridians desparately need a tax break, any tax break, but teachers are using children as hostages for politiking. It backfired. If they oppose something, it's a good indication I should vote for it.

[Bruce]

For those who complain of inequities,I think you should have done your homework before you purchased your home. As for snowbirds, they should pay more. They come down a few months a year and enjoy the rewards that the year round residents pay for.

[Ron]

"For those who complain of inequities,I think you should have done your homework before you purchased your home."

I couldn't agree more. They knew exactly what they were getting into when they bought the house. They are no better than the people that move next to an airport and then complain about the noise.
Real estate values usually increase so it is only common sense that tomorrow's home is going to cost more than today's, and the taxes are going to be more also. With any luck the passage of this amendment will cause our local and state governments to be more fiscally responsible. For quite a few years those governments have been spending money like they won the lotto. Well guess what......the people have spoken with their votes. If those in government don't get the hint, there may be more changes after the next election. Every citizen has to live within their means and it is time our officials learned the same thing.

[Kennybear]

I don't know what most of you are bitching about taxes for. In 2000 our tax bill (Pasco) was $1258.92 Our home was worth $135,000. and assessed at 87K.

In 2007 we paid $1314.94. The market value of our property is somewhere around 250K+. Assessed at $191,181.00.

Less than a $60.00 increase in 7 years.

I don't think some of you know what you paid. THAT is NOT a 'huge increase.' At least this household doesn't think so.

Incidentally the wife and I both think the tax system in place now, and in the future, is not fair to everyone. And will get worse. We both voted NO.

[guy]

Kennybear,
Things are not so sunny here in Pinellas County I can assure you.
So the local leaders must have much to do with our tax problems.

[Ghost of Reagan]

Cut the budget, cut (a sizeable cut) the bureaucracy---and cut regulations. This will make goods cheaper--and that is what will help the common folks.

Hey Ron...dumb comment. Do you think in my right mind I would have purchased this massive 1400 square foot 2/1 with a small one car garage if I knew only a few years later I would be paying over $10,000 per year in taxes and insurance. Do the math...how much money does one have to earn at say a 30% federal tax rate to clear 10k?

Hey...why stop there. Do you think anyone could have predicated the number of hours I would have to spend on the phone trying to keep my non-flood zone block home insured?

What am I getting for my money? Well who would have guessed that I would need to get a new car to keep my kidneys from turning to bleeding sand-bags on these crappy roads?

Hey Ron...maybe you don't do squat with your life so predicting the future comes pretty easy.

[Scott]

To Kennybear - you are the beneficiary of the SOH - that's why you have only seen a $60 increase in 7 years. If you decided to move up and did not have the SOH - you would pay on the full assessed value minus your (now) $40K exemption.

You new neighbors pay nearly 3x as much for the same home as yours. Think that is fair? Reasonable? I don't.

That's why this law will be overturned.

Lawmakers need to go back to the drawing board, pass a flat tax or increase the sales tax and abolish property taxes.

And all the realtors who were for this sham of a tax cut - good luck selling houses when the average prospect can qualify for the mortgage but cannot afford the taxes or insurance.

I heard Walmart is hiring some stock clerks...

[Richard]

A couple of months ago prior to the amendment being approved to be placed on the ballot,there was an article saying that portability could be in violation of Interstate Commerce Laws. I'm sure that I'm not the only one that remembers that and it's only a matter of time until the Lawyers for the unions get together and file a suit to get the portability portion of the Ammendment thrown out. If they are successful where does that leave us. With an increase of about $15,000 on the homestead exemption. Howard why don't you investigate this and do a story on the posibilities of this happening.

[Incredulous]

The people have not spoken. What was the voter turn out? Like 4 million people? That's deplorable in itself.

In addition to the inequities, Florida is pushing away business and trying to be a retirement state where only the young people, out of towners, and business pick up the tab. Common sense should tell you how that ends.

Florida won't attract business or talented young people or out of staters owning a home in the state. It will get a whole lot worse before it gets better...

[Kim]

We owe all this to Bill Foster and Baker. When people went to them and pleded with them to lower taxes, they told us they had to keep the tax rate so because the people of St. Pete wanted services. Bill Foster told one Doctor to run for office. The city said they needed ten thousand for the police the year before. After it was given the city then came in and took it back and put it in the general fund.
St. Pete has been running at 350 police since 1974. They say they will increase the number but they find out that 350 is about right for our city. So we are not going to loose any servide. Millions have been poured into the south side like lighted fancy steet lights. What they want in the south side are jobs. Baker and his Foster buddy could have stopped this property tax by giving us a little. No they are greedy. Lord only knows where the money really went.

[Rich]

Bruce and Ron,

I did my homework and have no problem paying my taxes. My problem is with the inequities associated with SOH. Why should I have to pay 6 times the amount of taxes my neighbor pays because I bought a house 25 years later? I don't use 6 times the services they do.
They were lucky enough to pay 1/6th of what I paid so they have a pile of free equity in the house. Isn't that enough?? Their house is currently worth half of what my house is worth. They should pay 1/2 the taxes I do not 1/6th.

What you and the taxman think your house is worth, and what it’s really worth… are two very different worlds. Therefore, any “it’s unfair” comments are subjective and selfish at best.

[SPScott]

We voted against Amendment 1--even tho' it is in our personal interest to do so--just as we did for the original SOH because it is totally inequitable--as the years since its passage have proved.

In our idealism, we thought citizens, realizing such flagrant inequality, would vote against it. It was not to be.

David Brooks' column in yesterday's Times spoke to what we have believed in all our lives: "The awareness that we are not self-made individuals, free to be you and me, but emerge as parts of networks, webs, and communities; that awareness is back again today." He was speaking of today's young people.

Obviously, what Brooks sees in young people today is not reflected in today's Florida politics: it's been said before, many times, but here it is again: "Don't tax you, don't tax me...". Always tax the other guy.

[Bland]

One more time, this mess is not because of SOH.

It is because after a huge speculative run up in the value of property the local governments decided to tax and spend at the same exponential rate.

Many of use, including myself, could not afford today's real estate taxes because our incomes have not increased at a similar exponential rate.

Do not blame SOH; blame the creeps that spent our tax money and the new folks that got greedy and paid too much for all this real estate.

Now there all hell to pay……

Well put, SPScott. As you now regret SOH, so shall we all regret Amendment 1.

[JohnK]

$240 Property Tax Break
10 percent annual cap on assessments
A transfer Save Our Homes tax benefits
Bush giving US $600

Lower interest rates for all of US,,,,,,Priceless

There are some things in life money can't buy, for everything else there's ?

[No Spin Zone!]

$240 Property Tax Break to help with property insurance increase - pittance

10 percent annual cap on “current” assessments - nadda

A transfer Save Our Homes tax benefits “kind of” – useless cause you still can’t afford to move

Bush giving US $600 so we can help China’s economy – more debt for my kids

Lower interest rates for all of US – lowering the value of the dollar

There are some things in life money can't buy, for everything else credit?

Hey Scott,
Kennybear's theoretical neigbors paying theoretically 3x the taxes paid 3x as much for their home.
You do the math.

Waaaaaaaa, I made a bad investment decision and I want someone else to pay for it…Wwaaaaaaaaa… I haven’t been paying attention to what these criminals I put in offer were doing… Waaaaaaaaa… It’s easier to blame my neighbor, who made a better investment decision… Waaaaaaaaa…

[Rich]

yeah I made a bad investment decision by being born 20 years after my neighbor. makes a lot of sense. I wasn't out of grammar school when SOH was passed. Yeah it's my fault for putting those guys in office. I was like 10 years old when they bought their house. Get a clue 3:45.

I agree with the one poster who said spending limits should have been in place that doesn't make SOH any more fair though. It still shifts an unfair portion of taxes on new homeowners(ie. young people), business owners and 2nd homeowners.

[Howard Troxler]

Howard here again -- thanks for the many comments. I wanted to echo the observation made by Bland that we really are talking about a couple different issues rolled together.

The first -- big tax increases due to big run-up in property values in the early 2000s. In some ways we now are closing the barn door after the cows are gone. Values will not go up that fast again for a while (I don't think) anyway. On top of that, we now have a 10 pct annual cap even for non-homesteaders, which I think is a good thing.

The separate issue is Save Our Homes, which is, without a doubt, a deliberate statement of unequal taxation. The longer you live in the same home, the more of a tax break you get. It is true, as some folks observed above, that the rules are hardly a secret.

Can't wait to see where this goes from here.

[Jim Johnson]

Rich

I moved here in 1974. For 34 years I've paid taxes that built schools and fire stations and parks and water/sewer and roads that people still use. All of these things were paid for before a lot of people came along.

New people created demands for more stuff. Be a man! Pay for it like the rest of us did! And stop whining because a fool paid too much for your house.

Jim...other being inflammatory and mean-spirited, those statements are lame and ill-conceived. The cost of the this crappy stuff they put in '70s is a fraction of what it costs today to maintain, replace, administer, and insure in today's dollars.

I understand the need to fight for a free lunch when one can't pay for it themselves. If the folks that have lived here for the past 34 years had paid attention to the opportunities at hand, they would have no reason to be so bitter.

Waaaaa boy: Yes we know you don't understand the difference unfair taxation and a bad investment.

Unfair taxation is anathema to what it means to be American.

Investing and risk taking, like ignorance, are a choice.

[Margaret]

This is about something totally different, Howard. Tell me, is the airplane in the Reagan Library really his plane while he was President? And we talk about waste in the government!

"Investing and risk taking, like ignorance, are a choice."

Kind of like buying a house during an artificially inflated value swing in an unpredictable market, whereby the local economy and tax structure do not support the swing, nor provide equitable taxation… and then realizing you guessed wrong?

Allllllrighty then!

Please continue with your Waaaaaaaaa, it’s not fair!

[Jim Johnson]

8:34

Let's run over the problem from another direction. My kid built a new home in 2003 for 150K; she sold the house in 2005 for 300K. Same house.

In 2003 the state budget was around 40-something billion. Today its about 70 billion.

Now! Inflation during those years didnt exceed 3%, but the cost of homes went nuts. Government spending went wild.

Tax appraisals are based on what homes sell for. Many people got homes they cant afford with mortgages they cant pay. But the taxes remain.

It doesnt require an Einstein to do the math.

I think the point that is being made - and it requires no math skills - is Rich and others don't mind paying their taxes. They mind paying yours.

[Gary]

My mother worked most of her life and the most she made working for the state of Florida when she retired was about 12,000 per year. She bought a condo for about 90,000 in 1998 and the taxes were about $1500
Now, someone with 2 working adults with college degrees making a combined income of over 100,000 per year buys a condo in her building for 300,000 and their taxes are going to be about 5500 per year. Most of the people in this column feel my mothers taxes and all her other neighbors should also pay 5500 instead of the 2400 they now pay.
SOH was put into effect to prevent people from being taxed out of their homes in situations just like what happened.
People who bought their homes 30 yrs ago bought at market price and bought what they could afford. Their taxes have gone up 3% per year similar to inflation.
People today who buy at market have to take into consideration the same thing as the people before them.
Old people all over this country are being taxed out of their homes. But not in Florida, SOH prevented it. Also its just been proved that the government will spend every cent it gets so don't think that if you make your neighbor pay more you'll pay less. It doesn't work that way.
Also remember in 20 years from now you'll be the neighbor who is paying less and you'll be shaking your head and wondering where do these people get all that money? Or you'll be the one moving out of your house because taxes have forced you out because your neighbors who paid a million for their condo feel your not paying your fair share.

[Rich]

Waaaa,

Again I didn't buy my house as an investment or on speculation. It just so happened that it was the time in my life when I needed a house to raise a family. I have no problem with what I paid for my house. I have no financial issues that prevent me from paying my taxes, insurance or note. I have a problem with the inequities of the taxes I am charged. My neighbor sits on a pile of free equity due to the increase in housing prices. I think that's reward enough for buying 25 years ago. It's not fair that I pay 6 times what he does for taxes in my community for using essentially the same services.

Jim,

Thanks for building all those roads, etc. Thanks also for leaving my generation with a $2trillion dollar debt to be paid. I didn't pay too much for my house. I agreed to the price and have no problem paying it. It's a home I will gladly raise my kids in. I knew I was buying at inflated prices but the investment choice I made was for my family well being not for monetary gain. I'm quite happy with it.

Gary,

Maybe the solution is to allow retired folk (age 65 or older) to have their taxes capped so they won't be forced from their homes due to tax increases. In fact many people say they are trapped in their homes because they can't afford to move and pay higher taxes.

[ed]

MR. BLAND-YOU ARE "RIGHT-ON"-IT WAS THE "RUN-UP" IN PROPERTY VALUES & THE "TAX MONEY POURING IN"-AND THE GOVENMENT OFFICIALS COULDN'T SPEND IT FAST ENOUGH-NO MENTION OF "TAX REDUCTIONS"-THIS IS WHAT GOT US "IN THE MESS" WE ARE IN TODAY-REMIND GOV'T OFFICIALS OF THIS WHEN THEY MENTION THEIR "SCARE TACTICS" OF SERVICES TO BE CUT!!!!

"I have no financial issues that prevent me from paying my taxes, insurance or note."

Then...

"It's not fair that I pay 6 times what he does for taxes in my community for using essentially the same services."

That, my friend, is the very definition of “Waaaaaaa”.

It is not your neighbor's fault that you have not been paying attention to who you put in office. It is also not in the Legislature’s power to lower your local tax rates. Amendment 1 was a diversion tactic used by the Legislature to take your mind off the fact that they have failed to address the bigger problem… property insurance.

And why have they failed?… because the industry spent nearly 12-million in 2006 to help put most of those puppets in office.

STOP BLAMING YOUR NEIGHBOR, AND START PAYING ATTENTION!

2:19...unless it is time for your diaper change, cut the waaaaa crap.

No one is blaming the neighbor. People like Rich are simply asking that all residents understand what is going on with the skewed tax system and that we all recognize that it really benefits no one including the homesteaders.

I don't see anything in this system that anyone should be happy to live with.

Unless all of us voters work to fight this, your neighbors will continue getting creamed by this system.

Matter of fact, it is time for my diaper change, and I'll aks you to tend your own business thank you very much!

Look... 64% of Florida’s voters approved a fraud due to misleading marketing tactics and successful misdirection… that in effect… skewed the system even further.

To his credit, “bland” nailed it right on the head.

We can waste our time bitching and screaming about “the system” if we choose. Which by the way, is exactly what the crack(tax)head politicians want us to do. OR… we can boot them all to the curb on Election Day and start over with leaders that will focus on “fixing” the system. And if they do not respond, boot them out come the next Election Day. Eventually, by taking back OUR responsibility in OUR government, we will right the ship.

For God’s sake, we just allowed our Constitution to be used as a freaking campaign tool… OUR CONSTITUTION! … and 64% of the people in this state haven’t the first dam clue how irreparable that may be.

So with all due respects, if you want to do something about it? Then tell as many people as you can to pay attention for the sake of this State and our Nation, and get their a*s off the couch on Election Day.

3:21: Agreed.

[Rich]

Waa,

How do you know who I voted for? I voted against Amendment1 so your wrong there. I'd vote to repeal SOH in a heartbeat for a consumption tax. I didn't say one word about my 57% increase in insurance this year because I know my neighbor has that same problem. Trust me I believe that is a huge problem as well. My insurance bill is 1/3 of my property taxes even after the increase. You only cry about insurance because it's a much greater percentage of your monthly housing costs because you have been protected from SOH for all these years.
What I complained about were the inequities in our tax system. Whether you want to admit them or not they are there. And no I didn't have any say in who or how they came up with SOH. I wasn't old enough.
Obviously you have owned your home for much longer and get a clear advantage over us new homeowners and you don't think that's an issue. That's fine but you are an idiot to think there is no injustice.

So who's crying now Waaa?? oh my insurance bill is too much!! Waaa

Rich, lighten up freak.

I didn’t say YOU voted for anything.
I didn’t say I had SOH.
I didn’t say there were NO inequities in the system.
I didn’t say YOU were involved in creating SOH.
I didn’t say how long I owned (me and the bank that is) my home.
I didn’t say it wasn’t an issue.
I didn’t say there was No injustice.

And I’m NOT crying. I’m disappointed at the level of ill-informed and apathetic voters.

And I didn’t say that YOU were one of them… in case you were wondering.

[Rich]

4:06

Maybe you didn't but you made plenty of juvenile statements about my position of how unfair our tax system is.

You made it perfectly clear that SOH benefit's you by your remarks and you kept attacking my posts by saying I was complaining about it. Now you bring up the insurance situation and I realize you probably pay multiple times more in insurance than you do in taxes. Well for me its the opposite situation. Yes I think insurance is out of control but I know taxes cost me 3 times what insurance does. They "tried" for an insurance fix and mine went up 57%. They tried to fix the tax issues and came up with lipstick for the pig. Unfortunately all I can do about it is make an informed vote.

[Howard Troxler]

Howard here. Sometimes I think SOH is like a line at Disney. You start out at the end of the line, miserable. As time passes, your own situation gets better, and you can look at all the people who have gotten in line behind you. The suckers.

Each person who starts out with a new home in Florida gets the worst possible deal, in terms of the percentage of the home's value that's getting taxed, then the deal gets better and better as time progresses. Now with portability the side issue of feeling "trapped" is somewhat alleviated as well.

So, in a sense, everybody DOES get the same deal, crummy at first, better as time passes. But at any given moment in time, Person X is paying taxes on a lot less percentage of value than Person Y for property of comparable value.

Seems to me that in the end, we have made a philosophical shift away from taxing a good, service or property, on the basis of value, and have decide to tax on the basis of personal circumstance - as if you paid a different tax at the gas pump based on how long you had owned your car. (Hmm, hope they don't think of that one.)

Bottom line is, that's what the majority of Floridians say they want, and 64 percent just increased the exemption and added portability.

Lively comments from everyone... I could do with one or two less "waaaaas", but maybe that's bias on my part (grin).

[Jim Johnson]

Rich

I said many times that homesteads ahould be exempt from taxes. People require shelter like they require food and medical care. Neither of those necessities are taxed. Your home should never be subject to confiscation by the government.

State and local governments give away tons of your tax money in corporate welfare, to lure business or research or whatever. Until SOH came along local government used tax dollars to pay for site development costs of new residential and commercial projects. The county I reside in spent 10 MILLION dollars to buy water and sewer facilities from private corporations. The facilitries were inoperable, and the scheme to inflate the price caused a few county commissioners to do some prison time.

There are still plenty of scams perpetrated on taxpayers by elected officials.

If people had any brains they'd rein in the abuse and save themselves a fortune in taxes.

[Jim Johnson]

Howard

License plate fees are based on how long you own a vehicle. After 20 years the price for the tag drops significantly.

Ok Rich, fair enough. For what it’s worth, sorry for the bs. Suffice it to say, we’re both passionate about the issue, but for somewhat different reasons. SOH benefits anyone who has SOH. Anyone who has it, is happy have it. And if a taxpayer is happy, there’s a good reason; they don’t feel that they’re being over-taxed.

“Bland” really did hit it on the head. The problem isn’t SOH. Frankly; I believe it to be a wonderful mechanism that can be used to keep local leadership on a controlled-growth pace consistent with the budget.

And neither is the problem… that your neighbor is paying less for the “same” services…

The problem is that you and your neighbor are “receiving” the “same” service… only you are paying more… and there is a difference.

And at the core of that problem is local leadership who, while quite aware that it was happening, failed to apply forward-thinking and do something to curtail the obvious fall-out. This snuck up on no one… and those who allowed it to happen, are not the best suited to correct it.

I'm going to bed.

[Jim Johnson]

11:04

Old homesteaders and newbies arent paying for the same services.

When the newbie blows in off the prairie, to take up residence in his over-priced home, schools, libraries, fire trucks, roads, parks, etc. already exist.

Someone bought all that stuff, and it wasnt the newbie.

No! Mr. Newbie is mad because the community expects him to buy the stuff he creates the need for, and new stuff is expensive.

Mighty neighborly of you Jim. As usual your argument is nonsense. I am not getting 6k worth of services. I moved into an old established neighborhood. Trust me...there ain't no new stuff put in just for me. No amount of old homesteader logic will ever convince otherwise.

[Howard Troxler]

Check out the letter to the editor in this morning's paper making the case for there being no property tax on homesteads.

It's the fifth one down:

http://www.sptimes.com/2008/02/04/Opinion/Today_s_Letters__Amen.shtml

[Larry]

Howard, I read Mr. Ganter's letter. One could make that argument for any tax, but the fact of the matter is, government needs taxes to operate and provide services to the citizenry. I believe the property tax system is out of whack and needs serious repair, but if you chuck that system of taxation, money will have to be raised from someplace else. Again, I think it is more of the "don't tax me, tax the guy behind me" mentality that you put forth in one of your columns. I also believe that, if the citizens of this state do not raise their voices in a call for reform, the clowns in Tallahassee will be silent on property taxes during the upcoming side show.

[20/20]

The powers that be have done a phenomenal job at redirecting the angst over taxation. Every reasonably intelligent taxpayer understands the purposes of taxation. We want and need roads, good schools, law enforcement, a military, social services, ect… and reasonably intelligent people realize that we need taxation in order to provide these things to society as a whole.

The problem is not the act of taxation. The problem is, and has always been, what the political fatcats DO with the tax dollars. Until we redirect conventional thinking away from the “collection” of taxes, and onto the “allocation” of tax dollars… we will continue to go around the mountain of futility.

We must stop “blaming” them for collecting taxes, and start holding them accountable for how they “spend” our tax dollars.

[Real]

I think people would be truly shocked if they knew how much their new neighbors and local businesses are paying in taxes.

Howard...why not do an article on the tax income just from the Parkshore condos on Beach. We can extrapolate from there...

This will really shine a light on what is going on here.

[Rich]

Good points by all. I also agree with the letter to the editor. The basic neccesities of life should not be taxed up to a certain amount. Food, clothing, shelter,etc. Property tax should be a one time sales tax paid at the time of purchase and only paid above a certain exempt amount. That would solve Jim's issue with newbies paying their way.

I read that if they do away with the loopholes for the services that are currently untaxed we could reduce property taxes by 40%. Fair taxes would be based on consumption.

They should abolish property taxes as they are now charged and increase sales taxes to offset them. They should close the loopholes on services. More of our taxes would be paid by tourists.

When our economy is doing well then the government collects more taxes. When we enter a recession then they collect less. They should feel the pinch when their people do. If the government can't run their "business" like we do (save when times are good and cut back when times are tight) then they should be out of business.

[Rich]

Jim,

I didn't create a need for any new services. They moved out and I moved in. The neighborhood has been around since the 1930's. Yes the owners before me and the ones before them built schools, libraries, etc but they were bought and paid for a long time ago. Why tax me even more if they are already paid for?

I think your issue is with growth and I agree growth should pay for itself. Unfortunately I feel like my tax dollars are being used to build new roads,schools, etc. that I will never use in order for my government to grow their tax base. They certainly aren't using them to build new schools or libraries in my area. Heck I have a few potholes that need filling.

[Jim Johnson]

Howard

I've said almost the same thing several times. No one's home should be liable for confiscation by the government.

[Jim Johnson]

Rich

My fundamental complaint is taxing homesteads...period.

Homesteads are at the mercy of speculators. The TIMES ran an article Sunday about real estate brokers manipulating home prices up so they could de-fraud banks. The sold the houses back and forth for escalating prices, got a loan for the highest amount, and defaulted. The swindle drove up the assessments of everyone in the area.

But local government made money from it, and didnt look too hard at what was going on.

"But local government made money from it, and didnt look too hard at what was going on."

Bottom line!

Moreover, they turned an intentional blind eye and deaf ear to it.

Jim Johnson,

-You're mistaken. Cities, counties and states operate on a balanced budget. So as more people arrive, aka newbies, they provide more tax revenue allowing the cities to afford more services. It's on the newbies own backs that further services have been provided. Old homestead dollars, given the cap and inflation, can't even afford maintenance of existing structures. So if anyone should be grateful, it'd be old homesteaders to newbies for allowing them to keep their libraries, police stations, ect.

-What's more, you can't have your cake and eat it too. In the same breadth that you lamblast newbies for coming here, your heart is secretly fluttering praise for them for elevating the housing market that you can take to the bank, not to mention the scores of jobs they provided through population growth. Do some Economics 101 homework and figure out what'd really happen if all the newbies left. I trust you'd find all your tough talk is merely talk with no rational logic.

-Finally, SOH has been around since '92 and for counties like mine -Pinellas, we've been built out since the 60's. So all this dribble about requiring more infrastructure for the newbies does not apply. We've had the same ole, same ole for many, many decades now.

Let's call SOH what it really is. It's no tax break but a tax evasion.

-4th generation native of the area socked with high taxes on account of my youth