They gathered for a live chat and an intelligent discussion of current events broke out! Here's the Feb. 26 chat transcript

[Note: The Feb. 26 live chat is now closed.]

Once again, the main topic in today's live chat on TroxBlog was the proposed baseball stadium, but there were quite a few angles.

Should there be a "public counsel" to look after the public's interest independently, since City Hall is pushing the deal?

We talked about a little bit about the fake class-warfare angle, the stereotypes of spoiled rich downtown types as the opponents, and honest hard-workin' middle-class folks supporting the stadium.

Other topics that came up in the chat:

* Pensions for government employees.
* Outrageous bounced-check bank fees.
* Unfair health-care costs if you're not insured.
* Property insurance (of course).
* The state's tax-reform commission, and the idea of swapping out property taxes for a higher sales tax.
* Electric companies and power lines.
* The governor and his prospects for being vice president.

Whew! Great chat. To read the transcript, just click on the "comments" link a few lines below...

Comments

[justme]

Hi Howard.. Welcome back!!

[Howard Troxler]

Let's start with a pre-filed stadium comment:

We were very disappointed to note the Mayor's absence at the 2/21 Council meeting... the first on the stadium issue. We also noted his absence Sunday, at the Univ. Of Chicago lecture on the economics of tax-subsidized stadiums. He and the Council members each received a personal invitation. None showed up. Hopefully Dave Goodwin from planning took good notes. It's almost like no one in the City government wants to hear anything but the Rays' side of this issue. How about some leadership, folks!! -- Orville & Wilber

[justme]

So what is up with Mayor Baker (or what game is he playing) that he is staying out of the stadium issue?? Whats your feeling on this one?

[Howard Troxler]

Hi, justme! Thank you.

Dear O & W: I noted the mayor's absence in my column this morning as well. You make an interesting point -- there is NO official role for "opposition" in this process. The staff will advocate the stadium, the City Council will bow to the staff -- the role of opposition is limited to the riff-raff public, which of course can be ignored. It almost makes me want to advocate the creation of a "public counsel" role, an official opposition that would take part in the process at every step!

[kyle]

Howard- want to go diving to watch sharks while people chum the water around us? Sounds like fun.

[Howard Troxler]

justme, as I said in the paper this morning, I think the mayor thinks he can have it both ways. While his staff pushes the deal, he lays back -- if it fails, it is not "his" failure, if it succeeds, he presides at Opening Day and gets the glory...

[Justin E]

His absence is, to me, further evidence that his stated position of undecided neutrality is merely something that will further reinforce the validity of his support once he invariably gives it later this year.

[Chris Jenkins]

It really gets me how the majority of the people I talk to who are against the Rays taking over Al Lang's waterfront site are mostly middle to lower class, hard working folks, trying to raise a family and pay the bills, and yet the mouth pieces of the opposition try to paint it as though we are the spoiled rich brats. It's such an amazing effort at propoganda, to create a public perception that this deal is on the table FOR the little guys, and OPPOSED by the rich guys.

Who are the orchestrators of this deal? The rich guys. Who are the prime beneficiaries of this deal, both long short term and long term? The rich guys. Who are hurting right now because their industry is paying the price for sub-prime mortgages? The rich guys. Who need a monster deal to bail them all out of their financial over reaching? The rich guys.

And who is it who shows up in droves, in person, and online, to fight the trop deal? Middle to lower middle class family guys, just like me, who like to take our kids down to the water, to play at the park, to walk along the sea wall, and to enjoy one of the few things we can afford in this recession...the free beauty and splendor of our waterfront.

The proponents of the deal would have you believe that all the citizens showing up to say no to this proposition are manipulated mouthpieces of the rich...because if you believe that, you'll stop paying attention to the fact that THEY are the man behind the curtain.

Don't let them hoodwink you.

[justme]

LOL Kyle... Amazing the adrenaline rush people get out of the "extreme" sports. As a diver, I would not want to be doing something like that without a shark cage. Doing shark dives are one thing (OK, I am still chicken on that one).. but to chum the waters and go dive? That crosses that lil while line between being just plain crazy & insane.

[Howard Troxler]

Hi, kyle! My own taste for water activity is a little more tame. Basically I am not in favor of anything motorized, high-speed, or that leads to proximity with things that can eat me, or, above all, that might interfere with the act of breathing, which I tend to prefer.

[Stpeteluvr]

Howard,

If Council takes the Pontius Pilate approach and washes their hands of the decision and sends it to the voters this November...who gets to word the exact question on the ballot? Is there a chance that it could be broken into two questions 1.) Site location 2,)Public Financing? And could you answer my question that if we let the Rays go to Tampa could we keep the "projected" 300 million for our own tax coffers? I realize the TIF limitations but wouldn't it still be money for us?

[Howard Troxler]

Hi Chris Jenkins! This is a very interesting element of class warfare being introduced. Notice at Thursday's hearing the majority of supporters were construction and union workers... honorable folks, of course, but their basic pitch was, "Let's spend $450 million so people can have jobs." And several pitched it as Rich Waterfront Folks being opposed, while Hard Working Folks support it.

I bet you there is NOT much class division at all, that folks are either for it or against it for perfectly good reasons that do not involve being either spoiled rich folks, or honest hard-working folk.

[Kyle]

What is going to happen to the city of SP milage rate going to do? Can we expect it to go up for next years budget shortfalls?

[Justin E]

Howard,

I agree. I think average people are actually for it or against it, by and large, for the exact same reasons: They love St Pete and what to see what's best for it.

[Howard Troxler]

Hi Stpeteluvr -- I haven't gotten to posting your pre-filed question let.

Re: election: The only thing they HAVE to have an election for, is the long-term lease of the waterfront property, i.e., the new stadium. The Tropicana Field site plan does not require one.

Having said that, I imagine they COULD hold an advisory referendum (or even a binding one? not sure) on the Trop plan as well.

After all, they are two sides of the same coin, and it is crazy to think the stadium plan can be judged independently of the Trop plan that is supposed to pay for it!

You also asked about putting it on the general election in the midst of a presidential race getting all the attention... I am positive here that their intentions were good, they wanted it at a time of maximum voter turnout, NOT for it to be "lost" in other races -- if they called a special election instead, plenty of critics, including me, would be accusing them of trying to rig the election in their favor.

[TH]

The Ray's are driving this entire process - I think that they are holding over the mayor's head the option of naming rights for the Rays (again) or maybe they have offered him a job opportunity once he leaves office!

There will probably be two referrendum items on the ballot in Nov - one on finance and one on land use.

[stpeteluvr]

Howard you are dead on about the Union supporters. I called their office in Tampa about Miguel Fuentes who made the outrageous claim they might be willing to invest from their "100's of millions" in pension funds. The local rep, Robert McCoy told me he invited Fuentes up from Miami because he is the state political director. Robert who is a very nice man just looking for work for his hard pressed carpenters, claims he read about the stadium he contacted the Rays and they took it from there..he wouldn't reveal what promises or enticements they offered but I suggested if it involved promising a certain % of union workers he get that in writing!!!

[Howard Troxler]

Here's a comment on the mention in my column this morning of getting rid of government-sector pension plans:

So, you think school teachers should lose their pensions? Most deferred comp plans have a contribution by employers. How much should the govt. set aside for this? Will it be cheaper than what they are paying for the contributions for the pension plan now? How much of that $300 million is from investments versus what was contributed by the employers, and in some case employees? Should government be like any other employer
where no one remembers what was done 10 years ago. Oh, my bad, the Legislature is that way now! -- Gloucester

Dear Gloucester: I should have made it clear in my column this morning that I am NOT suggested we take AWAY pension benefits from folks who already have them (except maybe elected officials!) but that the state should consider phasing them out prospectively, as the private sector has done. I do not have figures at my fingertips but am pretty sure that a tax-deferred savings option would cost the government less than
paying the freight of a pension plan. A good subject for research.

[Chris Jenkins]

I know the reality of it goes both ways, but just seeing it pitched as "It's the rich brats opposing it" makes my blood boil. So many of us are just barely hanging on, trying to stay out of foreclosure, keep our businesses running, and build something here in this city that we love, and these mega deals do nothing for us. Where is the support for small business in St. Pete? Where is the support for independent artists? Why is it that so little effort is made by the city to nurture the community of dreamers and doers that we have, while throwing any possible tax revenues at these megaprojects of limited benefit?

[Justin E]

Plus I believe they felt people who would be more likely to vote for the plan would also be more likely to show up at a general election than a special election.

[TH]

Oh and now with the new regulations in place for using TIF funds - if they go that way for financing the new project - then the County has to get involved and they have to put it out for approval.

[Diane Cardin]

The "Public Counsel" idea is great. It already exists, isn't the role of the city attorney in situ? The majority of his assistants are following his sad lead of having forgotten that role of serving the public, alas.

Creating a shadow cabinet, by aspiring wanna-be city council-members may also help. Don't you think?

Or recruiting an ombudsman for the people of this city?

[Howard Troxler]

This pre-filed comment on the stadium:

Let me offer a prediction: Toytown Landfill, the new home of the Tampa Bay Devil Rays. You heard it here first, folks. -- Buzzard

Dear Buzzard: Not a bad prediction, really, if the downtown site falls through...

[Jim Smith]

A couple of financial things have been bothering me lately. The first is health cost. The second is bank NSF practices.

The health industry discriminates against those who are not insured. HMOs pay hospitals about 30 to 35% of what the same hospitals charge individuals without insurance. This is one of the dirty practices no one seems to talk about. It would make a great newspaper story.

The banks' NSF charges are scandalous. I was working outside the country with no ability make a deposit. A bill for $350 posted that dropped my balance into negative territory. Three other small charges posted the same day. The total deficit in the account came to under $150 and I was charged $140 in NSF fees. he way they do it is particularly sneaky. They take out the largest item first and then deduct others in descending amounts. Had the smaller items been taken out first, the NSF charge would have been "only" $35 for the largest item. Also, although the bank (Bank of America) advertises its online account as being shown in real time, they don't post debits until midnight and the items don't show up until dawn. So there's no way to cover unexpected charges in time to avoid the NSF fees.

Duplicitous health and banking practices should be good fodder for you or, perhaps, other Times personnel.

Thanks for reading.

[Howard Troxler]

Re: city attorney: As the office was party to the originial confidentiality agreement, I am not exactly seeing it in the role of skeptic... THE BIGGEST QUESTION between now and June is what kind of contract the city draws up with the proposed developer. I also will be curious to see whether St. Petersburg uses in-house staff to match up against some of the smartest, big-deal developer lawyers in the nation...

[Howard Troxler]

Hi Jim Smith! Agreed about bank charges -- they are %@$$Ws. I have always hoped that free-market considerations would keep it reasonable, but am not aware of whether it has...

Hey, TH, you mentioned the tax-increment funding for the stadium -- this is a huge issue! And it is a gray area whether a citywide election is enough, or whether the entire county has to be asked for approval -- an even tougher election, seems to me.

[justme]

Yeah well St Pete needs a new mayor and preferably one that can grow a set of ... ok.. stand on his own 2 feet. But this isn't the first time he has done this crap.

[Howard Troxler]

re: HMOs: Another fundamental problem in our society. Not just HMOs, but insurance companies, all big groups, can negotiate group rates for themselves. A guy walking in off the street, offering to pay cash for his health care, is paying a wildly inflated, totally unrealistic "bill" that is not rationally priced.

[Chris Jenkins]

stpeteluvr, that's a good example, of people trying to do what they can to share in the wealth. Most carpenters are not rich, and with the developers slowing down, their money slows down too. It's not surprising at all they want to be a part of it, if it happens.

Another notable downtown figure I know asked to not be mentioned in any of this, for fear of angering developers and other influentials he works with down there, and for the same reason. He's living check to check, and can't afford to tick the purse string bearers off.

That's what it always comes down to, in the end, and that's why they so often win. The deals are made behind closed doors, and already commited to once made public. From there, it's just a matter of manipulating the voting base correctly so they go along with it. Given the history of our votes in this state, I don't think they'll have too much trouble. What Tally wants, Tally gets, and so it rolls on down the hill, all the way to our City Hall.

[Howard Troxler]

Speaking of insurance, here's a pre-filed comment:

Lately I've noticed Citizens Property Insurance claiming that new "start-up" insurance companies have been taking policies out of Citizens, thus reducing their exposure... I feel that the people of Florida are being fed a load of crap. In the final analysis, Citizens Property Insurance remains on the hook for each and every one of those policies written by the new companies, whether they are on Citizen's books or the "start-up" insurance company's books. -- Larry

Dear Larry: A cynical analysis, which does not mean it is not true. Few people remember that pre-Andrew, the biggest problem in Florida was that rates were too LOW, and risk was too concentrated, by a bunch of fly-by-night guys who disappeared the second there was a major claim. I hope the state, in its eagerness to get policies taken out of Citizens, does not go down a risky path.

[Jim Smith]

I'm glad you recognize that pricing of health care is rigged. Will you write about it?

[Mike MacDonald]

Look at the proposed power-line corridors in today's papers. Does anybody see the irony in three major PROPOSED pathways from the PROPOSED nuclear power plant to consumers to its south?
All of this hinges upon a big if - if the nuclear power plant is built, not a given!

IF!

It strikes me as nuts that nowhere in all of this does PE even factor into their equations:
- overwhelming life-cycle costs of nuclear energy, PE wants to shift those costs to consumers;
- public liability incurred by nuclear energy, which gets a pass courtesy of Congress;
- nuclear energy is not “free” as predicted by physicists during its courtship in the 1950s;
- enormous environmental costs of nuclear energy, waste storage, 25,000 year radio activity, etc];
- national security concerns about nuclear energy, but we worry more about Iran;
- declining in-migration to FL;
- ever escalating energy costs that will surely cause a decline in consumer demand;
- the total lack of recognition of resources readily available from conservation efforts, a la California experience since the mid 1970s;
- the phase out of incandescent bulbs incorporated into the energy bill that passed Congress last year, again a la trail blazing by California, Australia, et.al.;
- all of PE's energy predictions [and most others] assume that our insatiable demand for energy will continue on the up curve, as it has done for decades past;
- the FL Governor’s endorsement of alternative energy supplies and its impact upon demand;
- the downturn in the housing market, and its impact upon demand;
- the escalation cost of property taxes, and its impact upon demand;
- the escalation cost of property insurance, and its impact upon demand;
- the backlash over uncontrolled FL growth at any cost, subsequent citizen rebellion, and the impact upon demand.

Is this any way to run a business?

Our history is rife with examples of failed businesses, and government bail-outs, due to business’s failure to realistically account for changes in social demographics & consumption patterns.

We once supplied the world with farm products and manufactured goods. Now we no longer produce what the world wants, but we consume what the world makes. We are no longer a nation of producers, but a nation of consumers. That is a dead-end street we lurch headlong down to our peril.

Remember the ‘Rust Belt’? S&L debacle? PennCentral? Baldwin? Lima-Hamilton? Chrysler? GM? Ford? IBM? Ad nauseum.

Have you observed the decline in auto traffic during the day as gas prices have risen? At times, the streets seem more like the 1960s. And FL is more dependant upon rubber tired vehicles than almost every other state in the nation, which contribute at least 40% of all air pollution in FL.

Where is their any energy conservation in our lust for rubber tired vehicles? Are Toyota, Honda, et.al., our salvation? Remember: “What’s good for GM is good for the US?” Well, where’s GM today? Ditto Ford. Ditto Chrysler. In the toilet.

Have you paid attention to your electric power bill recently?

As with so many other issues that enter the political arena in our nation, this one is rife with faults, spin, hazy predictions, and to hell with the consumer, the environment, et. al.

Wake up Florida! This is your kids future!

[Howard Troxler]

As I've said before, I certainly am not opposed to the new stadium. I am entirely opposed to the way it's been handled by the city, and if the thing were defeated on those grounds alone, it would be a just result.

Even more important to me, however, is the deal -- how will the taxpayers be protected if the Tropicana site fails? And if the only answer is, "Well, gee, they promise that they'll do it in this nice contract," then this deal should be drop-kicked from here to Memphis. I want first-born children guaranteed, I want platinum bars stored in a vault.

[kyle]

Howard- Does Mark Lunsford need gas money for that big Hummer he drives now? He is spoiling the cause he has brought so much attention too.

[guy]

Hi Y'all
Those That took the retirement funds should be made to return them, or have them discounted of of their future entitlements. AND
We should use the mayor for shark chum,right were he is going to try to build a new stadium ~~~ end of case

[firstimer]

On the state employee "double dippers" --- I don't get the outcry. The "double dippers" are receiving retirement benefits they are apparently entitled to receive, but have chosen to continue working at the same time.
Since they are still working, aren't they earning their salary just like anyone else? If they left their state job, the state would be paying someone else to do the same job. So where is any "savings" to the state by eliminating this supposed "abuse of the system"?
I see no difference between these "double dippers" and others who draw a pension and take a different job than their old one ---- if you are still working, you deserve your salary.

[neil]

I have a novel idea I have been proposing for several years now. Let's just tell ALL the insurance companies to get the hell out of the state and have the state take over ALL insurance, auto, home, etc. Why let them cherry pick for lucrative auto and other lines while we pick up the risk. Take it ALL and use the profits from the lucrative lines to offset the rest. I know, too radical for a state that is as much under the thumb of crooks in Tallahassee as Florida is.

[TH]

Howard I understand that the county is seriously looking at countywide election on this, they don't want to have legal issues steming from the new TIFF regulations...

Speaking of TIFF, these dollars are really screwed up with the new laws that are in place. The funds that the county and cities in Pinellas have set aside to use for improvements (in St Pete - pier, downtown parking and other stuff) cannot be used for bond negotiations until they are sent for community approval. That can be a good thing if you are tired of the city spending funds without citizen representation, however no large projects are going to really get done (like the pier) because it will take forever to just put the financing in place - much less the project itself.

[Howard Troxler]

Hey, Mike, this is a chat! I ain't saying what you wrote about is not important, but let's keep it chat-sized length... else I'll use the Magic Keyboard.

[Justin E]

Howard, are you opposed to filling in the Bay?

[guy]

Those Norman Rockwell "Chatters" are cool Howard.

[Jim Smith]

I moved here almost 20 years ago from Toronto. In the late '70's and early '80's, the land along Lake Ontario was turned over to condo developers, closing off the city's most precious feature. The waterfront here played a part in our decision to move. Putting a stadium in place of Al Lang Field takes St. Petersburg down the dismal road we saw in Toronto. The cost matters, of course. But the waterfront is priceless.

[Stpeteluvr]

If you oppose the stadium idea you have discovered quickly that the Rays will exploit the NIMBY for rich folks in the class warfare you all have accurately described. The only argument that seems to have any traction is the amount of debt (to be paid back through future taxes on the Trop redevelopment, which as Howard correctly points out may or may not appear..the debt remains). This deal represents over 1500 dollars for every man woman and child in St. Petersburg. The major league franchise was awarded to Tampa Bay. No city of 250,000 can support a major league franchise...so how fair is it to ask 250,000 to pick up the entire tab for a metroplex with millions of citizens?

[Howard Troxler]

firstimer, thanks for the post and the comment! It is a valid question that you raise. The way I see it, under the system, the idea of "pension" becomes nothing except a "longetivity bonus" for long-tim employees... maybe we want that. Maybe we're grateful to have all that experience, wisdom, etc... or maybe there are positions that otherwise might be reduced, or could be cycled back into the salary mix at a lower (e.g. less senior) level... needs analysis.

[justme]

I am opposed to a new stadium. Tropicana Field isn't that old. It is not falling apart. I've been in outdoor stadiums where people are falling over from heat strokes or where they are trying to find cover in a bad weather. (ie Dolphin Stadium for Superbowl 2007). People were pushing each other to get out of that weather and the Stadium walk ways were flooding. NOT a fun thing. Trop is indoors.. They have only had ONE double header because of it closing for a hurricane warning.

[Howard Troxler]

Hi Justin.... so far my main concern has been the city's mishandling of the secrecy, etc., and the ominous deal to be announced later... have not paid as much attention to the enviro angle. My prejudice is I am not automatically opposed based on what I know now...

[Kyle]

Hey Jim- I bet you wish you still had those canadian quarters? Are canadians no longer accepting American quarters as change in Canada?

[Jim Smith]

Beats me, Kyle. I consider myself a Floridian.

[Bob Hackworth]

Howard,

What are your thoughts on the new proposal coming out of the Taxation and Budget Reform Commission?

I think the new tax swap proposal is so much better than the just passed Amendment 1.

Under this plan, ALL property owners in my town would get a 40% cut to their property tax bill. The significance is that ALL get it and that a 40% cut is REAL relief.

Many of us suggested this same proposal to the legislature last June and were ignored. They instead refused to address the REAL issue, tax inequity, and instead sought to make it an attack on local governments and our authority to set spending priorities in our own communities.

According to public record from the city clerk's office - 109 people put cards in to speak on the Trop referendum. Approximately 65% were opposed to the Trop referendum. Of those opposed 18 lived downtown and all the rest lived elsewhere in the city ( 45 + people)

Of those in favor, many were union folks brought in from out of town. I feel for those guys - if they are, in fact, out of work - but the idea of building a new stadium for 1/2 billion dollars ( at today's price) to gain some temporary jobs is not even rationale thinking.

[Howard Troxler]

Sorry to jump back a few comments, but wanted to say to neil, on the question of kicking out all the insurance companies -- my own thinkin' is to have a statewide windstorm pool, like federal flood insurance, so that Florida can basically "insure itself" against hurricanes, spread the risk across the entire state. Way it works now, the private companies have kept all the lowest-risk (most profitable!) customers and shoved the highest risk onto the public sector!

[Justin E]

Okay, but that's now what I asked, with all due respect.

If the plan, as stated, requires filling in at least (and I stress at least) .6 acres of protected habitat, is that something, knowing our current environmental woes and knowing that we are working to preserve our state for future generations, etc is that act something you oppose?

[Howard Troxler]

Bob Hackworth raises a question that ties in with this pre-filed comment too:

Rascal Alert. It seems the folks on the Tax Committee in Tallahassee want to propose an amendment to replace the school property tax component with an increase of 1% to our sales tax. So far I am fine with this. Will this mean property taxes can still increase 3% for the SOH folks? If so, sounds like an overall tax increase to this cracker. By the way, if the voters pass this proposal, would the people of Pinellas County be okay with this increase and the Penny for Pinellas? Can we just go back to Marco Rubio's original 2 1/2% proposal and get rid of homestead property taxes? -- Bland

Dear Bland: Haven't read the fine print yet but I can't imagine them changing the Save Our Homes rules -- which, as you correctly note, allows an INCREASE in assessments, up to 3 pct a year! This flaw will become more apparent as values decline. But I don't see the nexus between the tax-swap issue and SOH - if anything, seems to me homeowners are still better off, as propetry taxes are being replaces by sales taxes. Re: Penny for Pinellas: It's a done deal till the next renewal anyway... re: Rubio: We'll see. Senate seems unwilling to be adventurous

[Chris Jenkins]

Hey Neil,
I asked a while back if it were possible for the insurance commissioner to require an "all or nothing" approach to insurance policy writers here in Florida. It seems not. The major houses will simply form subsidiaries which ONLY write specific kinds of policies, and then say "Sorry, AllState OnlyCars Inc. doesn't even HAVE home insurance to offer!"

I'd be for a state run program, if it brought rates down. Anything that would make the double whammy of prop. tax and insurance lighten up, and by more than 240 bucks.

[justme]

Only reason the construction workers want the stadium is to get work. Time are very tough here right now. Business's are closing right & left. People are moving out of the State by the U-Haul load. Small business's are barely making ends meet because when you are the little guy you might as well bend over there is no tax relief or any kind of relief for the small business guy. Times are tough right, money is tight. Gas is going up and up and up.. which means our groceries, power, water will go up. To bad our incomes aren't going up. I just feel we do not NEED a new stadium with the tough times we are in right now. That is a luxury and who can afford the "luxury"... The rich ! And why should I .. the middle class citizen who is struggling to pay for all these increases have to pay more money for something I can not even enjoy because I need to be able to feed & house my family?

[Diane]

Hi "justme";I too am opposed to a new stadium, AND THE RUSH in all this.

It seems we all accepted & bought the idea that the Rays have to move their team elsewhere leaving their lease broken w/out penalty for breach of contract?

What's going on here? The city is being framed w/the merchendizing of a product not needed. Could I too ask the city to be released of my obligation/responsibility toward paying utilities & taxes if I find it cumbersome or unpleasant? d.

[Howard Troxler]

Justin: Thought I answered. So far, no, the environmental angle is not a deal-breaker for me. I need to know more.

[guy]

Bob this is a great idea and hope it passes.
Does anyone know if it contains a sales tax break for the elderly etc.
A card perhaps, that gives a break to the poor????

[Jim Smith]

I'm an economist and I can't figure out how a year or two of even massive hurricanes wipes out the accumulated earnings of an insurer with state-wide customers. I do understand why a company with coverage concentrated in one area can be knocked off by a single event. So I'm not buying into the talk that Citizens puts the state at risk. In fact, to minimize the risk, I agree the state should close down all the private insurers.

[Kyle]

Howard- Your assessment of Crist so far? I think the guy is a politicians politician.

[Howard Troxler]

Also on the tax-swap issue:

The proposal is healthy in this regard -- it forces the Legislature to be honest about the "required local effort" portion of school property taxes, which is, in essence, a STATE property tax forced upon the locals.

So, the advantage is, a big cut in property taxes. The disadvantages are those associated with sales taxes, to the extent they are unstable, regressive, etc. -- so far, seems to me that politically Floridians are willing to make the tradeoff... propety taxes being far more unpopular than sales taxes.

[Chris Jenkins]

Hey Justin E,
call the FWRI library in downtown St. Pete (727-896-8626), and they'll give you the exact run down on the environmental impact to the proposed waterfront site. From what I understand, it would involve pouring 80,000 pounds of concrete into the bay. Not likely to have a positive effect on that already bedraggled ecosystem. Has anyone tried fishing from the Pier lately? Don't waste your time...

[Justin E]

Other than the fact that that amount of the bay is going to be dredged and filled? What more would you need to know? If there is a family of mermaids down there?

I ask this with all due respect, but to me its an issue that seems secondary when it should be primary. When do we draw the line? What precedent to we set?

[earth muffin]

The picture that Schrockaman used in his story of the first public hearing was terrible but predicted. He showed all older people looking very unhappy that happened to be sitting on the front row. He did not show any of the college aged students or young professionals that are also opposed to the stadium. He is trying to create a generational gap as well as a racial gap about who is for and who is against
I feel for those that want jobs, but they wont be able to afford tickets to attend games in this boondoggle stadium.
the Rays are going to BUY the vote in November if this ever goes to a referendum. They have stated they will spend as much as it takes (millions) to get their word across and we know from watching national elections, if you say something often enough, it becomes truth, even if it is lies.
I do not want this to go to referendum. the council and the mayor need to step up to the plate and stop this charade of a RFP and a half baked idea
if the Rays want a new stadium, let them pay for it and build it somewhere away from the waterfront. Toy town seems perfect with interstate access
Surely they can get investor friends in NYC to help them finance without using our public money
this entire thing is a sham.
Who wants to bet on how many developers respond in a real way to the RFP when the Rays list HINES as the developer on their website?
How can the mayor and the council not find out more about the stories from other cities? I am ashamed they did not attend the talk in Tampa
this is so crazy. Dont we have bigger things to be working on than a baseball stadium?
Earth Muffin

[Howard Troxler]

Kyle: I have always had a soft spot for C. Crist, but he is a sunny fellow who simply ignores anything unpleasant. I keep wondering whether problems will catch up with him. Last week he suggested if Florida's university presidents don't like what's happening, they should all quit their jobs.... saying we have it "pretty darned good" here in Fla. I think his act wore thin for most Floridians on the fake property-tax and insurance "fixes."

[TH]

I'm sorry justme but you are wrong about "People are moving out of the State by the U-Haul load." This isn't the case and it has been reported that there is not as many coming into the state but the numbers going out are making the growth almost a wash - there is a small amount of population growth. There are businesses closing, but again I would argue not as big as you state.

[firstimer]

I agree that state employees shouldn't have a sweeter deal than employees in the private sector. If a state employee leaves their job for the qualifying month, rehiring shouldn't be automatic. The position should become truly vacant and subject to the usual risks of reclassification, deletion, or the possibility that a different person could be hired to fill the job.

[Chris Jenkins]

I campaigned for Charlie to run for governor when he was AG, because of his work against corruption in the PSC. I voted for him when he ran. Now, I'm disappointed by the diappearance of the crusader for public good I thought I elected.

[justme]

TH I think you are wrong. In the past month I have been to 3 places I frequent and they are now CLOSED. Doors locked & bolted shut. Down the street from where I work I have seen several sites put on auction.
I know several people moving back to where they came from originally because its gotten to expensive to live here for the wages that are being paid.
Just seems every time I turn around its another business I drive by that is GONE and so many places going up for sale (more then usual).

[Stpeteluvr]

Diane,
I think your comments hit the bullseye, both in somebody to protect us at city hall and why the rush. This could easily be tabled for a year and the "let the citizens vote on it" crowd could still be mollified. Why not do some true due diligence, explore what baseball has really meant to this community the past ten years. As Winston Churchill said,"Those who do not learn from history are doomed to repeat it." Has baseball lived up to the first round of promises?

[Howard Troxler]

All I am saying is, I have spent a lot of time on the financial angle and have not yet spent any time on the environmental angle. I honestly do not know what's involved, other than the initial story in the paper talking about the regulatory hurdles. I am taking y'all's word that it's .6 acres and 80,000 pounds of concrete in the bay -- yep, sounds bad. If by some miracle the business deal that emerges in March-June mean the city goes ahead with this, then the impact will be Topic A, seems to me...

[drop]

Does the DROP program require the employee that elects this program to actually leave there job at the end of five years?

[Howard Troxler]

Chris, I agree w/ yr observations about Crist and PSC... and have been dismayed at his new closeness with the regulated companies - remember, FP&L at $1 million was the main financier of his pro-Amendment 1 campaign. Now the electric industry has major legislation pending in the upcoming session...

[Chris Jenkins]

StPeteLuvr, that's the heart of the problem right there.

None of the first round promises were kept. Why are we even entertaining a second round?

If the first round targets had been met, we wouldn't need a second round, because the Rays would be a profitable team bringing millions of dollars in new development into the area.

They're using the same pitch as last time...and didn't deliver last time. Would we accept that from any vendor we did personal business with?

[guy]

Crist is looking for VP.
I don't think he'll be the one,so he should be careful of the bridges he is burning here.

[Howard Troxler]

Re: DROP: I am pretty sure that it does...

[Stpeteluvr]

Diane,
I think your comments hit the bullseye, both in somebody to protect us at city hall and why the rush. This could easily be tabled for a year and the "let the citizens vote on it" crowd could still be mollified. Why not do some true due diligence, explore what baseball has really meant to this community the past ten years. As Winston Churchill said,"Those who do not learn from history are doomed to repeat it." Has baseball lived up to the first round of promises?

[Chris Jenkins]

...and I'm sure FPL's legislation will sail through. Who's there to argue against it now?

[Howard Troxler]

Guy, I think that's right -- if he was VP, then higher ed, gambling woes, budged collapse, tax structure, hurricanes, all left behind him for a sunny and carefree existence. But if he DOESN'T get chosen, he faces all those things... hard to see him skating by carefree for another 2 years as gov without taking on some of these issues head-on, instead of with slogans.

[Kyle]

.6 of an acre is not alot of fill. Sounds like the amount of debri in runoff from todays storm. I still won't vote for the stadium though.

[Howard Troxler]

There are a few minutes left in today's chat -- would anyone like to bring up a different subject, or have I failed to answer a question in all the back and forth?

[TH]

Howard - another big one with the new baseball concept is I understand that the rays have yet to make contact with the grand prix. this new stadium really screws with the waterfront race and the rays never attempted to contact the grand prix group prior to taking this to the public. guess they feel that they are better than the grand prix group. I have to wonder which one of them has generated the most income to the community over the past four years?

[Paul Cooper]

Howard,
Just saw the sad news that Dick Fletcher of Channel 10 died this morning. He's been on the air here forever. Let's keep his family in our thoughts and prayers.

[Chris Jenkins]

It's the first time I was able to make it for a live chat, and glad to have been a part. Thanks Howard. You contribute true value to this community, with the column, and by hosting these kinds of interactions.

[Jim Smith]

This is my first time here, Howard. My only question is whether you run these forums as a path to future columns and other Times actions. Do you?

When the referendum fails Al Lang will be empty (because the Rays have moved to Port Charlotte, so that they could build a stadium on this land - talk about pre-determined! ).

Their contractual link to this site will be finished and the citizens have their land back.

It should never go to SPC, which would place it in the hands of someone other then the citizens again. There are great ideas for the entire site which look a lot better then a giant stadium or the old Al Lang field.

[Howard Troxler]

Paul, thanks for pointing it out. I knew him casually, having met him a few times at Ch. 10, and liked talking with him... best wishes indeed to his family.

TH: Since the Grand Prix is, 100 percent, the mayor's baby, there ain't no WAY anything that happens with baseball will interfere. Also, that question came up on the day of the announcement and I think I remember the Rays making all proper assurances regarding the race...

[Rich]

Howard,

Yeah sales taxes are unstable. Let them tighten their belts when we tighten ours. With the exemptions on groceries, medecine, etc. the basic neccessities are not taxed. We should all pay the same tax on non neccessities regardless of income. The retail lobby floats that regressive tax myth to make us believe we are hurting the poor. The fact is SOH hurts the poor more as they have to pay ever increasing rent due to landlords not being homesteaded.

[Kyle]

See you all at Al Lang waterfront for scuba lessons. Today's topic- How to stay out of the chum slick.

[guy]

Dear Howard, as usual a fun debate.
Now I challenge you to put our names on all the Norman Rockwell gabbers as you see us, that would be funny.

[Howard Troxler]

Thanks for the good words ... Jim, sometimes my columns ARE influenced by the things I learn here... in general mostly I focus on state and local-level issues, but you never know what will come up.

[TH]

beg to differ with you Howard - the GP only has 2 more years under contract to be in St. Pete. Funny, the mayor only has two more years...

[drop]

where did the $893,286 in lump sum paid to the Miami-Dade president come from?

[Howard Troxler]

Rich, good point on the indirect effect on renters of SOH, since rental owners are gettin' socked.

Also, on regressive-sales-tax question, remember that food & medical, two of the biggest expenses, remain exempt.

Who will do the investigative reporting this Rays proposal demands?

[Howard Troxler]

TH: Well, when you put it THAT way... :)

[Diane]

Howard: Back to your idea of advocating for Public Council as an official opposition office. More musing on this?

StPeteLuvr: I agree there is plenty of time, we just don't take a breather to see it. Let the Rays break their lease. benefit of the time gained while a settlement is agreed upon parties to envision what to do once the land goes back to the people -- I would even dare by suggesting the city staff find and identify, during that period, the expropriated residents of Gas Light neighborhood to see what they would like to do w/their former neighborhood.

Beware of a Mayor seeking a referendum question allowing a third term for mayor.

[TH]

always fun Howard - take care!

[drop]

Add to that $14,631 per month and still keep his job that pays 328,860 per year. Nice job!!!!

[Jim Smith]

This seems to be a great venue for column ideas. I feel strongly that health and bank charges should be regulated by the state. Newspapers greatly influence the political dialog. So I hope you or the Times can initiate the dialog on these issues.

Thanks for your time, Howard.

[Justin E]

Kyle,

Just to put it in perspective, lets assume that area is 5 feet deep. If .6 acres equals, about 26,000 feet, that means they would be filling at least 130,680 cubic feet of space. Thats the equivalent of 1 foot concrete blocks stacked on top of each other reaching over TWO MILES into the sky.

That's a bit more than what we get in runoff after a storm.

[Howard Cook]

I have a solution to a lot of the problems plagueing Florida. The following problems are too much to explain in the space allowed, but it pertains to fires, taxes and problems in schools. As soon as possible I would like to write to you giving you all the solutions. Look for it in your e-mail.

[Howard Troxler]

Well, there is a lot to think about! That was a funny closing comment about a third term -- I would guess the voters would be opposed, but you never know...

B'sides, see, the "Crist as VP" scenario sets up perfectly for the mayor, who steps in to run for gov after the 2-year interim rule of Gov. Kottkamp!

THANK YOU to everyone who stopped by or took part in today's live chat -- we covered a lot of ground. Unfortunately I am spoken for next Tuesday, but will be back with dedicated chat-vigor the week after.

As always, I'll leave the comments open for anyone who wants to keep adding. Best wishes and happy Tuesday to all...

[Chris Jenkins]

...it involves helping a Nigerian Royal Family smuggle some money out of the country in the amount of FOURTEEN MILLION and SIX HUNDRED THOUSAND dollars.

[guy]

Yes Justin, It would take a fleet of dump trucks from Baker's Sand Fill INC.

[Paul]

Another thing no one has mentioned about loosing the Trop and the parking around it is that it would perhaps make for a good post-hurricane staging area. It is in a no flood zone, has wide open space that could be cleared of debris, post-storm, and the Trop itself could perhaps be used as an emergency shelter. Not saying this would survive a CAT 4 or higher, but it would definately be a good one-stop area for post-storm survival. Another thing not mentioned is what will the insurance be on a new waterfront stadium? and who will pay that bill? The Trop serves more purpose than just a ballfield, and those things should be mentioned and considered.

[ENough]

What I haven't grasped is who are these city staffers who are pushing the new stadium? What is their record as public servants? Moreover, what is their reputation in their department(s)? Are they accountable?

[Buzzard]

And I repeat: It is my humble opinion that there ain't gonna be no waterfront stadium...and there was never any REAL intention to have one there in the first place.

Bring back Bill Foster, he was the only council member to have sense!

Yeeeeaaahhhhh. Bill Foster. Right. He just got his knickers in a knot denouncing Satan and linking evolution to Hitler and Columbine shooters.

Don't think so...