Pretty pictures, indeed

The three proposals opened Tuesday for the redevelopment of Tropicana Field in St. Petersburg contained many graceful and attractive artist's renderings. All three proposed some graceful mix of retail, office, residential, green space and public use.

This is all well and good. I'm not a naysayer trying to stand in the way of "progress," as some folks characterize the plan's skeptics. But I HAVE spent my entire career watching cities get carried away with pretty drawings and promises in projects such as this without doing their due diligence.

Two points have to be stressed over and over:

(1) By themselves, these proposals mean nothing. Zip. They can promise all the neat stores and X number of jobs and X dollars in economic impact that they want. What matters is the contract that the city enters into. What teeth will the contract have? What guarantees will there be if the goals of the contract are not met? The contract itself is not the guarantee. And neither is a simple "reverter" clause saying that as a last resort, the city can taken the land back. That is a "nuclear option" that does the city little good, as a practical measure.

(2) None of these ideas pays for a new baseball stadium -- not yet, anyway. And that is the entire purpose of this project. The Hines proposal is for a purchase price of the site of $50 million, and even that phased in with dribbles and drabs -- much less than any sale figure I've heard bandied about. The Archstone-Madison proposal is not even for a sale, but just a lease. As for the Williams Quarter proposal -- pretty drawings now, we can talk about those pesky little business details later. All of the grand estimates of tax revenues that will be generated might work, but again, there have to be guarantees.

On top of this, the Archstone proposal calls for the taxpayers to pay for the destruction of Tropicana Field, which I thought was pretty much the purpose of hiring a developer. Both the Archstone and the Hines proposals say the taxpayers will pay for any unexpected costs of environmental cleanup. That is a reasonable position for the companies -- but it will be UNreasonable for the city to agree unless it is entirely sure of what it is doing.

I will be curious to see whether the city continues to take these proposals at face value for as long as possible, choosing one of the developers and only then getting around to the nitty-gritty business details.

Comments

[get-smart]

Read and Heed my fine feathered friends. http://www.aei.org/publications/pubID.21445/pub_detail.asp

[Bland]

Howard,

Given how these three proposals are starting off, do you believe any of these developers will avail to the taxpayers a “guaranteed and iron glad” deal that will alleviate risk to the taxpayers? My answer of course is no. I never expected there would be such a proposal.

We need to quite this thing now and stop spending the City’s time and money on this effort. There is no way the City can take on a major development, given its monetary demographics, and previous track record on such projects.

This RFP process and the waterfront stadium deal is “Dead on Arrival.” Forget about the Ester Bunny and the Tooth Fairy. Santa Claus is not coming to town either. This has just been, in my opinion an expensive exercise. For those who have not read it, see today’s editorial on the stadium proposal, still trying to keep hope alive.

Let’s see what the others think.

[guy]

Dear Howard,
I am very concerned that the Ray's, in their greed to exploit the city on the new plan, could cause major problems at the present stadium, by not properly maintaining the facility and making it seem like it is too costly.(air conditioning etc)
Do you know who is in charge of maintaining the condition of the property??
I mean they could run it into the ground.

[Billy Boy]

Howard? Come on man, where are your cahonays! This deal is about as sour as a mouthful of ripe lemons in the summer.

Stop beating around the bush man, tell it like it is.

This is a boondoggle and you know it!

[Chris Jenkins]

Brilliant post, Get-Smart! I'll be spreading it everywhere. Here it is again.

http://www.aei.org/publications/pubID.21445/pub_detail.asp

[Hammer]

Man, this POWW group must spend a mint on spin consultants. Standard, and tired I might add, Pie-in-the-sky promises at best.

FACTS:

We have 1000’s of empty units in Pinellas as it is.

A 1-in-4 foreclosure rate, and climbing.

Not one “mixed use” project has live up to its promises as of yet.

A claim that a piece of property that starts with a 95-million dollar price tag will provide “affordable housing”.

A plan that got its start with lies and closed door deals.

… not buying it sport; time to hire a new consultant.

[Hammer Time?]

Hammer, do you mean the POWW group that can be found online at http://www.stpetepoww.com ?

Thanks for the plug. Please check out the site all those who had no idea the group even existed before Hammer brought it up.

Well worth it.

[Please Hammer, Don't Hurt Him]

Holy cow! I just went to their site and looked at some of the literature they have about how stadium deals like these are a big ripoff for taxpayers. Let's just say they have "a few" sources to back up their claims. Check it out here: http://www.stpetepoww.com/tabid/70/Default.aspx

(scroll down page)

[guy]

Wow I was thinking how we could oppose the Rich Ray's plans but someone has the bull by the horns already.
We need Neighborhood signs that say~~~ "save the dome" and "save AL Lang" beautiful.
I will donate

[needtoknow]

In these proposals is it stated that the labor force will comprise of American union construction workers or is the labor force going to come from Mexico?

[Kay]

Great question, need to know. I'm not an appraiser or anything but the purchase price offered of 50mil seems very low to me.

[Ron]

Actually, the $50 million is reasonable. That equates to roughly $580,000 per acre. The overblown $300 million figure that the Rays kept talking about was the unreasonable amount. That came to roughly $3.5 million per acre. At this point, it appears that, at best, this thing is short $250 million on it's original estimate. It is also short on how any cost overruns will be paid. It is also short on how the existing Trop debt will be retired. It is also short on how any infrastructure improvements will be funded.
All in all, this is a plan that should be DOA.

Hey Rays, how about just honoring your lease & putting your efforts into building a winning (or at least a competitive) team?

[Don Mott]

Stop the presses we have new definitions for two words in the dictionary, boondoggle; New TB Rays stadium, sap; Any taxpaying citizen who votes for a new pro sports stadium. This deal has been shady and dirty since it's inception and with each new stage it gets shadier and dirtier. The pie in the sky estimates floated by the Rays, the developers and the city are just that. Anyone who thinks the new stadium will bring any economic benefit to downtown or the citizens is living in a fantasy world. We heard these same promises when the Trop was proposed and where are the new businesses and taxpaying development the city promised us then. Howard I understand that you need to remain balanced in your position but I think deep down you know the city nor the Rays will ever give the taxpayers any type of guarantee regarding cost overruns etc. If it ever gets to the final stages I cannot wait to see how large of a silver platter, i.e. taxpayer money the Rays ownership actually gets.

[Hammer]

Mixed use is a failure all over Florida. Please site one that is a success in the Tampa Bay area, whereby – as it is claimed – the people who work there at 10 & 12 dollar and hour retail sales jobs also live there in the ¼+ million-dollar housing.

Go ahead, I’ll wait

[CarolAbernathy]

Among many other concerns I have, who decides what is an "unexpected environmental" cleanup? I remember when the gas plant was there, and the original dome builders collected huge cost overruns to partially clean the site. It is my understanding that they didn't have to clean up the part that is now parking lot. What is "unexpected?"

Carol,

The original overruns were to the tuen of 13-million, and the "unexpected environmental" issues was directly under the dome.

Trust me; the same exists under the entire site and will cost taxpayers millions more.

You can bet there will be a loophole in this deal big enough to drive a truck through... and dump the costs on the taxpayers again.

There are many combinations of mixed use projects that are successful (Tampa, Winter Park, Stuart, Seaside, etc.), however, the Trop idea is really a Master Plan in disguise. Large scale Master Planning rarely works.

One example is the Bay Plaza fiasco that was supposed to redevelop several blocks in downtown St. Petersburg. Small business owners were forced to sell through eminent domain, but the selected redevelopers/master planners couldn't pull it together - although sadly they managed to demolish one of the city's historic old waterfront hotels before they left town.

For the longest time there were empty blocks of cleared, unproductive land. After it became clear the developers could not deliver, Mayor David Fischer wanted to end the relationship, but the Council led by Councilmember Leslie Curran, decided to keep right on paying the guys.

Sustainable, walkable, livable communities are a mix of uses ( hence the planners idea of "mixed use" ) but the best communities develop over time as small business owners, services, and housing evolve into neighborhoods.

[guy]

Well said no name ~~~

[whynot]

The reason the other bids are somewhat incomplete is because the Rays paid the other bidders to produce a half hearted proposal. It really wouldn't look good if Hines was the sole bidder. Who knows the Chamber of Commerce with Sembler might be the king makers in this deal. I am sure they can prove it can be done.

[Cathy Wilson]

Excuse me Mr. Hammer but POWW, as any of you who've gone to the site will know, is the citizen's group that OPPOSES the Ray's plan.

One other small detail... Michael Kalt is saying this everywhere he goes so it MUST BE true...
The Rays absolutely swear they'll be responsible for ANY cost overruns on the stadium...
here's the kicker - you ready???
...as long as THEY CONTROL the construction!!!!
Looks like they just need us to pay the bills here in good old St. Sugardaddy!
I don't know about you but I personally scrubbed the word "SUCKER" off my forehead back during the Bay Plaza fiasco and I'm NOT in the market for a new tat.

[Don Mott]

Speaking of environmental issues don't forget the filling of 0.6 acres of Tampa Bay which probably will not go over too well, and even if approved would cost plenty. Not to mention the costs of shifting Bayshore. Are these costs included in the proposal? I doubt it! As with everything else they've done they make it sound simple and easy. This whole deal is a sham on the taxpayers. But I'm sure our honest elected officials are all googly eyed after seeing all of these sweet numbers and pretty pictures. If this thing gets past the voters I will be stupefied.

Does anyone find the irony amusing that the Rays would offer skin cancer screenings, yet want to build an outdoor stadium for viewing baseball in the August sun?

[Rational]

"Does anyone find the irony amusing that the Rays would offer skin cancer screenings, yet want to build an outdoor stadium for viewing baseball in the August sun?"

No, I don't think anyone with a rational mind would find that ironic or amusing.

I think that doing something outside and taking measures to prevent/detect skin cancer are not mutually exclusive endeavors.

Have you ever heard of sunscreen or staying in the shade?

Or have you ever heard of nighttime--when the vast majority of the games in the new stadium will be?

[Dean Kennedy]

After reading so much talk on details, I realize that I'm not completely clear on WHY the Rays want a new stadium. Is it because (a) the old stadium is inadequate and they want a better one? Or is it just because (b) they see a way to make a huge profit on the sale of the old site and still get a ballpark that is almost as good as the old one? I'm skeptical in either case, but if the main motive is profit from property development, then count me VERY skeptical.
If the Rays are claiming that they need a better stadium, may we see a list of the issues they have with the old one, and how the new one will be better?

[John]

Living in Florida, I do plenty of stuff out in the sun already (I work in construction and am an avid boater). I like the Trop because its indoors and I can take a break from the sun.

This new stadium would have me sitting in the sun for hours unless it was raining, in which case I'm told the sail will keep me dry. However, what if there's a storm? The rain doesn't fall straight down and I'd surely get wet sitting along the baseline. Plus what about lightning? How many rain delays or postponed games are we gonna have?

I thought that was why they built a dome in the first place.

What we need, in my opinion, is a new dome, not some high priced sailboat looking thing.

[tundo]

I love the idea of the new stadium being on the waterfront, but they should have done that initially. This is where they should have been playing from day one, it only makes sense that if you are going to have a baseball team in Tampa Bay for them to be playing in a waterfront ball-park, its attractive and accentuates the area.

I wasn't around here or old enough for that matter to know what happened in the late 80's that led to the Dome being built or if anyone had mentioned the Al Lang site then.

If there was a way for the team to pay for this thing themselves, then I don't think there would be much of a problem. But I just don't see that being the case, and even though I'll support and vote for the new stadium regardless since I think we already waste my tax money anyways, it has no chance with most citizens of St. Pete.

I think next, we will see them trying for a Channelside location in Tampa. Its clear ownership wants this team on the waterfront, and I think they will do what is necessary to do it. Even if that means moving them to Tampa.

[Cynthia Smith]

Tundo,

I think what you said is what the Rays are hoping people will say, "Maybe if they pay for it themselves all the other negative stuff about it will be okay." Then, lo and behold, the Rays and MLB will come up with the money (which I'm sure they weren't planning on doing all along) so doubters will go along with it.

Also, the Rays moving to Tampa or somewhere else is something I bet the Rays hope people in St Pete are scared will happen. Fear is a great motivator, and I'm sure they think that line of reasoning will influence how people vote. They're not saying it themselves, but then again they don't have to apparently.

The fact that you'll vote for something no matter what and that you're totally complacent about how your taxes are spent, well... not much I can say to that. Hope someday you realize that you can make a difference if you care and try. I mean that in a kind way.

[Paul]

Cynthia, good points. Although the point on fear of the team moving to Tampa only applies to fans. I don't watch any baseball or football or any sports. I really could care less if the Rays moved to Tampa. I really like St Pete and am in no competition to see our city become a 'real city' or 'major league destination'. Lets keep things in perspective, this will be a hugely out of place addition to the downtown. It just doesn't jive or fit with the current 'vibrancy' we have going. Just my opinion.

[tundo]

Im just saying if they are going to waste tax money, Id rather it be on something I can enjoy.

Paul, I disagree with it being out of place. This is one of the most historic sites in all of baseball already. I think it fits right in. There is an auto race that takes place in and around there already. Sports have a role in downtown. But I can understand where you are coming from since you do not watch sports. I would hope their goal is to incorporate the intimacy of downtown and all of its artistic beauty into it, rather than trying to seperate away from that to become a "real city".

[John]

Tundo, you're right, there is a lot of history there, but with spring training, not regular games. I think maybe keeping Al Lang there, letting a minor league or even college team have it as their field and putting a museum of spring training history or something to that effect would be much more appropriate than cramming that huge stadium in there. Just my take on it.

[Thor]

Thor has been away, but now she is back to help educate you people. Like Dean Kennedy. Hello Dean, Thor here. The Rays don't get the money from the Trop sale, the money goes to the city, some will be used for the new stadium, some for police, fire, schools. Thor knows what the POWW people will say (Hi POWW, or should Thor say hello 1 Beach Drive) They'll say it is all a crock. Thor knows a a line of bull when she see it, all of you rich little brats trying to tell everyone else what to do. Thor greets Cynthia Smith, hey Cynthia, no move from the Trop, no really cool stores in downtown, like Crate and Barrel, yes all of that shopping money goes elsewhere. Oh thats right POWW, you people don't shop in lowly Pineallas County anyway, you take all of your cash and spend it in Tampa or Sarasota, you won't hang with the little people. Hey POWW, Thor cannot wait to see more of your canards. Thor has spoken, Thor is brave, Thor is wise, Thor is looking forward to shopping where home plate will used to be.

Thor, do you mean POWW, located online at www.stpetepoww.com

The page http://www.stpetepoww.com/tabid/70/Default.aspx
has some particularly good articles on a topic you seem to know so much about (I'm sure you've already read all of them though).

It's funny you make fun of those you consider rich people yet you seem to support a plan that will only help other rich people get richer.

Besides, the majority of people in POWW do not live at Bayfront Tower. And what's so unusual about people concerned about something being those that will be most affected?

[Thor]

Thor sees you were too scared to even type a name. Thor knows your words are all lies. You are probably one of the pathetic old rich people who live at 1 Beach Drive.

Thor would rather see you as Soylent Green.

[Jennifer]

thor you say you want to see them as "soylent green"?

thats pretty messed up dude

so you want to blend them up and turn their cadavers into processed wafers?

[Paul in St Pete]

Poking fun at 'old people' does nothing for a meaningful discussion. Exactly what age makes you 'old', and why is that even an issue. Regardless, each person has an opinion and desire to either see this project happen or not. Who cares what their address is or how old they are. I am no mythical persona nor am I telling anyone that I have the 'facts' and they don't. Its quite amusing to see how people entertain themselves on here. What I do know is that I'm a St Pete resident, and I recently joined POWW so that my time, effort and opinion on the stadium scheme hopefully makes a difference. Good to see so many people involved on both sides of the issue. If this makes it to a ballot, my opinion is that there will be a huge amount of 'no' votes and not so many 'yes' votes. Recall the Albert Whited vote? Weren't there half the 'yes' votes as there were petition signatures to get in on a ballot? Kinda tells you something about the PR and propaganda work that was involved on that.

Beware Thor… he is an idiot minion who works for the Rays. He’s also a legend in his own mind who displays characteristics of a psychopath.

Roses are red
Violets are blue
I’m a skitsophrenic
… and so am I

[Thor]

Thor apologizes for the fake Thor calling people a lier. Thor would never use that term or the term soylent green. Thor is also amused by the thought of her working for the baseball team. Thor is not into employment in a baseball team, she is into helping people and she is into shopping and re doing the Trop area. Thor knows there are only people at 1 beach drive against the idea, Thor also knows there are many more for the idea. Like hard working people, not rich brats, remember Thor's earlier posts, she knows many of you and once called you friends, right Kate? Thor has spoken, Thor is wise, Thor is brave, Thor likes the poetry post. Roses are Red, and Thor is not blue, Thor thinks 1 beach drive is a joke so does the rest of St Pete too.

[Justin Elza]

Hey Thor, I'm 30, middle class, married, own a small business and I live in a two bedroom house. Everyone I know is against the stadium plan. By the way, I also volunteer with POWW as time permits.

I've never even been to Bayfront, what the heck are you even talking about? None of the people I talk to on a daily basis support the stadium and I only know a couple in POWW that even live at Bayfront. Nice try.

Is that the best argument for the stadium you have? That so-called rich people happen to oppose it and that you like to go shopping?

Also, why do you use some ridiculous name like "Thor"? Are you trying to conceal your real identity?

Hmmm...that puts you in the same league as pedophiles and stalkers, I guess.

Perhaps you'd prefer a public debate, you and me?

[Justin Elza]

Nice attempt to play off your previous tasteless comments, by the way.

[Justin Elza]

One more thing, all these other groups that have come out against this stadium boondoggle, they are all run out of Bayfront Tower and all their members live there as well I guess?

- Audubon Society

- Sierra Club

- Alliance for A Livable Pinellas

- St. Petersburg Downtown Neighborhood Association (DNA)

- Surfriders Foundation

The St Pete Creative Network

[Justin Elza]

One more thing, all these other groups that have come out against this stadium boondoggle, they are all run out of Bayfront Tower and all their members live there as well I guess?

- Audubon Society

- Sierra Club

- Alliance for A Livable Pinellas

- St. Petersburg Downtown Neighborhood Association (DNA)

- Surfriders Foundation

- The St Pete Creative Network

Thor want shop home plate..drool, drool....Thor want shop home plate....drool, drool

Thor jealous and petty...droole ...why nobody like me...droole,droole..

Thor like peotry..droole,droole...

Ok, Thorazine - here's a little poem to make you happy:
Roses are red,
Bayfronters are few,
Compared to all others,
Who say "NO", too.

Thor no understand...someone read poem me..drool,drool...

Could someone please change Thor's drool bucket?

[Thor]

Hi Justin, Thor here, Thor can tell you have a very small circle of friends. Small in number, small in thinking, small in imagination. Thor invites you to free your mind of small thinking and come to know the truth. Thor knows the truth about you and your small little pals. Thor understands. Thor knows the trop redevelopment and the new stadium are big plans, for big minded people and there are more like minded people. Thor has a wide big circle of friends that think big. Justin, Thor believes you do not want to increase your small circle of friends, because your statement of everyone is against the plan would change. Thor also knows the nay sayers here are 1 beach drive. Justin, learn the truth. Thor has spoken, Thor is brave, Thor is wise, Thor is a big thinker and she is getting ready to shop at the redone Trop in 2012.

[Justin Elza]

You didn't address any of my questions or comments, which I expected. You just went back to this sill 1 beach drive crap, which is apparently all you have.

Thor is a loser, that's probably about as accurate as its going to get.

You have a big wide something alright.

[Justin Elza]

You didn't address any of my questions or comments, which I expected. You just went back to this silly 1 beach drive crap, which is apparently all you have.

Thor is a loser, that's probably about as accurate as its going to get.

You have a big wide something alright.

[Justin Elza]

Again, here are some groups that oppose the stadium:

- Audubon Society

- Sierra Club

- Alliance for A Livable Pinellas

- St. Petersburg Downtown Neighborhood Association (DNA)

- Surfriders Foundation

- The St Pete Creative Network

The creative network, which I'm part of, has about 600+ members.

A pretty small circle though, I guess.

Why does she refer to herself in the third person? Isn't that a sign of mental illness or something?

[Chad]

big plans? yeah, more like big profit for the rays owners and big debt for st pete for years to come. whole thing would be a big mistake.

so sick of people acting like not wanting a frickin' stupid sports stadium means you're a loser. that's exactly what they want you to think, so they can get filthy rich off your silly sense of pride.

[Jennifer]

Shopping? Really? You'd cram that huge stadium downtown just to make room for a place for you to shop? How arrogant and selfish can you get? Besides, that sounds like the opinion of a nimby rich person, which you accuse opponents of being.

Everyone I talk to at the office thinks this plan is BS.

And it is!!!

I think Thor's real name is Tracey Locke.

[Don Mott]

Excuse me but Thor is not wise otherwise she would know that the property tax, the sales tax and all other profits received from the redevelopment of the Trop property are included in the the Rays redevelopment plan. Hence their sneaky term of no 'new' taxes. It is still taxes that are being taken from the city budget and just who will make up for the shortfall in taxes? Last I knew the taxpayers pay for the city and any shortage of funds will be covered by the "taxpayers", so yes there are no 'new' taxes but there may be more raised and or additional taxes, or cuts in service. Not to mention the many unanswered questions such as cost overruns that so far have not been addressed, at least in writing, the lack of proof that a project of this magnitude will and can be viable beyond some pipe dream of the developer etc., etc. Get real and wake up to the facts instead of what the preachers are preaching which so far has been no more valuable or honest than a pie in the sky pipe dream. I could go on about the environmental problems, the parking problems and so forth but I think I've said enough for now.

Tracey
Helps
Out
Rays

[Thor]

Hi Justin, Thor is back. Thor is not sure about your groups, Thor knows the NAACP, The Plumbers Union, The Carpenters Union, and many, many, many businesses in downtown are all for Thor's future place to shop. Thor does not know a Tracey Locke, but he or she must be a great person and a future shopping pal of Thor's. Oh, Thor mentions unions, that's right, these jobs don't cut it for you snobby rich little brats. As Thor has stated before Justin, and Don, (Thor enjoys your applesauce), Thor knows many of the rich little brats against this, they are former friends of Thor's. Too bad, so sad, they could have shopped with Thor and watched a ball splash into the water. Oh well, Thor will find new friends, like the thousands who are for this very cool forward thinking idea. Thor has spoken, Thor is brave, Thor is wise, Thor would like you to focus.

[Justin Elza]

NAACP have endorsed this have they? Can you provide some proof of that please?

And can you also provide documentation of some guarantee that any significant portion of the carpentry or plumbing will be performed by local union workers?

And all the businesses downtown are for you shopping at a redeveloped Trop site, eh? Name a few.

Snobby rich brat? I wish. I rent a house, lady. I own a little business that I'm proud to keep afloat. I work hard. I drink beer. I could give a rats hairy you know what about protecting some rich condo owners.

You really seem to be talking out of something, but I'm not sure it's your mouth.

And why do you keep talking about your self in the third person, it's annoying and makes you sound like a douche bag.

[Howard Troxler]

Howard here. Although Howard also finds it fairly obnoxious for someone to refer to oneself in the third person, Howard has deleted a couple of comments from other posters expressing disagreement with Thor in terms of sexual activity or psychological impairment. Howard is not pleased, but will ease his pain by going to see the Mets play the Indians today.

[Justin Elza (The real Justin Elza)]

I believe it is against the rules of this forum to post as someone else.

It also shows just how weak your own position is and how desperate you are becoming.

To all, whomever posted the last post as Justin Elza was not me, it was a cowardly move by someone with no good argument of their own.

[Justin Elza]

Easily remedied however. If a post from me is not a post from my name as a link to my Typepad profile, its not really from me.

And to the person who impersonated me, thanks for basically admitting you lost the argument by resorting to childish tactics.

[Justin Elza]

By the way, here's a link to a page with lots of good articles that explain why I DONT AGREE with the misguided notion that this stadium deal will be good for St Pete:

http://www.stpetepoww.com/tabid/70/Default.aspx

You will have to scroll down the page to truly appreciate how much has been written to back up my opinions.

Impostor, can you provide similar research to back up your assertions?

No doubt a response from Thor will follow, adamantly denying the accusation (in the third person of course).

Howard, can you track the IP address of each person posting?

[jtmcphee]

The debate will go on and on. But when a billion dollars is potentially up in the air, greed drives people into a failure of common sense. The Rays have hired an affable, persuasive flack who's adept at creating "consensus" around previous stadium rip-offs in other cities by going group by group to potential veto and stake holders like construction unions and contractors, shop owners, other developers, citizens groups from neighborhood associations to Uhuru to the NAACP. He puts on a show using well-oiled techniques to draw in, offer "concessions" to or otherwise "get them behind" the project by pandering to their particular interests and lingo. Folks like him that are just a little further along the scale between ardent salesmanship and sociopathy, with multiple abandoned wives and strings of stock frauds behind them, have similar charisma. Meanwhile, the sidebar connections between Rays and City, staff and elected, churn forward.

I'll say it again, THERE IS NO CONTRACT THAT COULD POSSIBLY BE WRITTEN THAT WOULD ENSURE THAT THE CITY WOULD NEVER END UP HOLDING A VERY STINKY BAG. All contracts are subject to “interpretation” and amendment and litigation. Remember, as a last resort beyond all the years of litigation over the meaning of carefully obfuscated clauses, there lurks Chapter 11 of the Bankruptcy Code, which lets all kinds of corporate malefactors walk away from their messes. Will any of the INDIVIDUALS projecting all this fuzzy future goodness and world-classiness put their PERSONAL futures and fortunes on the line? The cowboys at Bear Stearns aren't going to lose their chateaus and Mercedes in the sub-prime meltdown. What makes us think that slicks from New York have any expectation of personal financial risk of the sort that bag-holding taxpayers in this urban area will have when this latest "project" goes south?

I don’t see much difference between the "financing" of SailAway Stadium and the promises that the now $2 trillion Iraq invasion would be paid for by "confiscating" and selling Iraqi oil. And I can hardly wait for the first condemnation action of some poor schmuck’s building or store for the "public purpose" of making the Rays owners richer.
Remember, these guys do this big-project stuff all the time. It’s got to do with their egos and personal bottom lines and brags in their resumes and Who’s Who entries. The question is whether we will be able to see past the blizzard of dollars and the fog of promises well enough not to step into this tar pit.

[Justin Elza]

JT,

Common sense is at a disadvantage, there's no doubt about that.

I have faith that those of us working our butts off to stop this thing can make a difference though.

I also have faith in the people of St. Pete.

[typist]

Here is the transcript (office tape system) of the Rays/Mayor first meeting in Feb '07.

http://www.geocities.com/ante_chamber/transcript.htm

[Thor]

JT, happy Easter to you Thor sends her benevolent greetings. So JT, a company coming to St Petersburg and spending over $1 billion in infrastructure is a bad idea to you and yours. Creating thousands of jobs is a bad idea. Sending over $70 million to schools is a bad idea. Thor wonders what is a good idea to you, Thor is thinking, (she is trying not to hurt herself while doing so) Thor continues to think, oh yes a good idea for you must be leaving over 60 acres of parking lot in downtown alone, leaving a huge ugly building downtown the same, and letting everyone at 1 beach drive dictate what happens to the rest of us puny little people. Thor sends her greetings to Justin, hey justin, nice plug for where you work, perhaps you are looking for work, Thor invites you to go to career builder.com for job searches, you can build your resume by saying, "Hi I'm justin and I'm against everything" Or since you stated you like to drink beer, Thor advises you check out the personal ads located in *TBT. Thor has spoken, Thor is wise, Thor is brave, Thor is growing bored with you people. Oh and since you people must post website, try this one www.majorleaguedowntown.com

[Justin Elza]

Oh Thor, you truly are the biggest douche bag I've come across in these discussion threads.

I'll have to share your personal ads jibe with my wife, she'll get a kick out of it.

It's pretty obvious you're the one who impersonated me and it's also pretty obvious that you aren't too bright (I mean, you couldn't even check to make sure you spelled my name right in the fake email address you gave? Give me a break.).

I really get a kick out of giving people like you a chance to show how obnoxious you can be.

By the way, where did you pull the magical $70 million to schools number from? The same place most of what you say comes from I suppose.

[Justin Elza]

And one more thing, you have yet to support any of the claims you've made. Let me ask again:

1. NAACP have endorsed this have they? Can you provide some proof of that please?

2. And can you also provide documentation of some guarantee that any significant portion of the carpentry or plumbing will be performed by local union workers?

3. And all the businesses downtown are for you shopping at a redeveloped Trop site, eh? Name a few.

4. Explain your the $70 million to new schools rational

5. Provide me with some research supporting your claim such as I have with the articles found here: http://www.stpetepoww.com/tabid/70/Default.aspx

[Howard Troxler]

Howard here. I have deleted the comments that were posted under a fake name. Actually, they were posted under a real name, but not by the owner of the name.

Justin, I officially pronounce you the Wronged Party. But quit calling people douchebags anyway.

I agree with the tenor of JTMcPhee's comments and share his skepticism -- I have pointed out in columns that all it takes is a simple bankruptcy filing to leave the taxpayers entirely on the hook for hundreds of millions.

Hence to me all the talk about $1-billion in investment, creating bazillions of jobs, etc. is not an "argument" in favor of the stadium, but just PR spin. So, this has gotta be a REALLY good contract.

[Justin Elza]

I accordingly apologize for referring to "Thor" as a douche bag.

Accurate or not, it was not appropriate.

[Justin Elza]

Howard, do we vote on the contract or do we just vote to extend the Rays' lease on the Al Lang site and then keep our fingers crossed that Baker will act in our best interests when it comes to drafting the actual contract?

If the ladder is the case, seems like a huge leap of faith, particularly given the current economic situation and the amount of secrecy surrounding this deal since day 1.

[get-smart]

jtmcphee is hitting on all cylinders. The unions aren't strong in this area but you can see at the city council meeting there were some union guys there.The Rays have a way of mustering up these shills though. I hope those union guys were paid for their time. I guess they haven't realized that the stadium will be built with Mexican labor. They should be protesting that they want a union contract for their support. It is a matter of us mustering up the vote with existing local opposition groups and forming a solitary group. And as everybody knows the tax payers will be footing the bill for these millionaires. Long Live the Internet

[Kay]

My husband is a union worker. Just because the union-as a group-is supporting this, does not mean the individual members are for it. As a group, they have goals as far as keeping their membership employed. As an individual, my husband does not support this project. Although it would bring him work (temporary of course), it is a job that as a citizen of St Pete he would rather not come to be.

[Justin Elza]

Kay,

Very interesting perspective. Also, we haven't been given any guarantee (in writing) as to the number of local union workers that would even be working on the projects.

[get-smart]

From my experience if a job has union workers on it and a non-union worker walks on site the union workers call for a work stoppage until the non-union worker leaves.

[Steven D. Lange]

Thor, please keep blogging. You are no assest for the Fans for a Waterfront Stadium or for the Rays; and for that we thank you.

Listen Thor, POWW's job (which can be found at www.stpetepoww.com) is to inform our community as to the evolving land grab being promulgated by the Ray's with the covert assistance of the Mayor.

POWW's job is to stimulate debate by encouraging TV, radio and newspaper coverage of issues we bring to light. So far we have been very sucessful at this. We brought forward the blockage of major views from the canvas roof. We brought up the falicy of parking lot owners being told, or informed or included in the Ray's parking study. We brought to the Media's attention the 2.5 acre land grab (land owned by the citizens and paid for with tax dollars) by the Rays of Mahaffey parking lot land to build the Rays team offices and an eight hundred car parking garage to be used by the Ray's employees. We brought up the cost overrun issues associated with the environmental cleanup which is sure to occur on the Tropicana Field site (and will be paid for by tax dollars). We were the ones who brought up the contamination issue under the actual Trop building and site which has never been cleaned up or remediated (and will be paid for by tax dollars). We were the ones who brought up the issue of the "air rights" clause in the existing City and Ray's contract which allows the City to develop the Trop 86 acres now while splitting the redevelopment profits 50 - 50 with the developer. In other words no need for the RFP process which the City just went through, and paid for I might add by the City (tax dollars), to secure three worthless submittals. We were the ones who brought out that the cititens of St. Pete will be paying for this project in new taxes by selling 86 acres of city land or by allowing the Ray's to use 15 acres of prime waterfront land (paid for by tax dollars) for no rent for thirty years. We were the ones continually reminding the citizens that once the Ray's move into the new Waterfront Stadium they will not be paying any rent for thirty years (a loss of tax dollars). We are the ones continually reminding the City Council that they broke their promise to zone Al Lang Field to DC-P via a glitch ordinance which the Mayor and Council have refused to do thus deceiving all of St. Petersburg.

So Thor, please keep blogging; We appreciate all that you are doing for us.

At the risk of incurring Thor's wrath and getting sucked down into the invective and idiocy that our anonymous internet blather engenders, just a couple of points. I don't see any "company coming to St Petersburg and spending over $1 billion in infrastructure" -- rather, a currently local entity (Rays) trying to get the taxpayers to spend a billion to give it a sweetheart deal. The supposed "thousands of jobs?" All I can say on that is "where's the beef?" And how is a project that takes money out of the public pocket going to net "over $70 million to schools"? Will there be casino gambling and Lotto terminals in the SailAway structure?

One basic problem with smoke, mirrors, and pretty architectural renderings is that they lack the resolution of detail that gives people like ALL the taxpayers of this area, and the state and local legislatures who can tax us into poverty, a clear picture, IN ADVANCE, of what they are being expected to mortgage themselves for. The history of all these "projector" projects, whether stadiums or "mixed use miracles," is almost uniformly the same -- the day-to-day economic engine of an area ends up crippled by having to bat cleanup for the rich kids who walk away from the plate with all the balls.

Here's one to chew over. The EPA has a "brownfields redevelopment" program that gives a pass on Superfund cleanup liability to industries that build on property that would otherwise be perpetually economically impaired. Why not work with the Rays to use their money to build a new stadium on the presently-fallow Toytown landfill site? Not interested?

[JTMcPhee]

Sorry to leave the byline off the previous message. Toytown anyone? I an not anonymous.