Red light letter. Red light letter. Red light letter. Red light letter. Red light letter. News media conspiracy letter.

Your article in today's St. Pete Times was interesting but more for the information that was omitted rather than the information it provided.... Unless the police start enforcing the law that all plates be in such shape and position that a camera can readily read them the drivers who want to run a red light will continue to do so. -- Bob Mumm

Dear Mr. Mumm: Good point!

I understand that the St Pete Times has a New World Order Agenda and you are a faithful servant there of, but you are full of crap. You are simply working to try to normalize and justify the shredding of our Constitution and our Bill of Rights... Maybe, the communist writers of the St Pete Times should reread the Declaration of Independence, and the Bill of Rights, especially that nasty old 2nd Amendment. I just read that only 10% of the people polled get their news from newspapers. Soon those people will be dead and so will the Times. -- Michael Flynn

Dear Mr. Flynn: You are barkin' at the wrong tree on one point -- I am a big Second Amendment guy and have said so in the paper over the years. As for your closing prediction: Not THAT soon, I hope.

Studies were from various state agencies and in general showed an increase in accidents, perhaps partly caused by reduction in  the on time of the yellow caution light. Article also cited case where software used  to identify car was in error resulting in false accusation of car  owner. Seems to me that if this occurs the state or the company that  supplies and operates the camera system should be required to fully  compensate the wrongly accused person for whatever time was required  to refute the false charge, paying at whatever the individual's normal  compensation rate might be. -- Chuck

Re: accidents: What I've seen so far is data showing a reduction in serious "T-bone" accidents but an increase in rear-end fender-benders. If true, this seems an acceptable tradeoff. Yellow-light manipulation would be entire unacceptable though, and I think the idea of forbidding the government from using cameras to raise general revenue would prevent it. As for software failures resulting in wrongly accused persons, the ID is done by human beings but mistakes are possible, yes indeed.

Actually, there's a fourth and perhaps most important question: Is there a motive on the part of the auto insurance lobby to drive up citations? The penalty for guilty drivers extends beyond the fine you describe. The guilty also are assessed points on their driver's licenses and typically increased auto insurance premiums for an extended period.  Your "rules" do not address this issue. Should they? -- Ben Langer

The proposed state law specifically forbids the use of these tickets against a driving record or for the computing of auto insurance rates. So far, anyway.

Point 1. You are not supposed to pull into the intersection UNTIL you can complete your turn. If you pull into the intersection and wait you are running the red light when it does change. (remember, going thru on the yellow is also a no no) point2. How is company supposed to arrive at a "just" flat fee if they don't know in advance how much the camera will be used? point3. The driver can contest the ticket
question. Can you show any place where these cameras are in use around the world where they have been mis-used? -- Steve Schick, Hudson

(1) That may be true, but they are not going to issue tickets to people who do it anyway. (2) The company knows almost PRECISELY how many tickets will be issued. Before it ever installs its equipment, it does a detailed study of the intersections proposed by the local government. It chooses which intersections will get cameras based on the actual traffic and violations that are occurring there. (3) Yes, absolutely. In multiple places, local governments have realized they could abuse the system and raise more money for themselves if they "cheated" by having unfairly short yellow lights, changing the timing of the lights, etc. -- some links to examples where this has happened are in the comments to my blog item yesterday.

It is very disturbing that the press totally suppressed the near riot at the high-school in Miami Dade. It was live on television Friday... I waited for the six o'clock news to see the cause and results. ~~~~ nothing Nine o'clock nothing. Eleven ~ nothing Saturday morning Times~~~  nothing. Now it seems to me that they could have played it down for obvious reasons, but to suppress it altogether is going in the wrong direction. Ben Franklin said, "When the people don't hear the truth, they live a lie" If it happens again no one will be prepared. It makes one wonder what else is going on??. -- Guy Nash, St. Petersburg

Is it possible, rather than deliberate suppression of the news, that a disturbance at a Miami high school just was not big news in the Tampa Bay area? At any rate, I also saw a follow-up item in the paper yesterday or the day before.

Comments

[lisa]

I just wanted to comment on the red-light issue. I would think a cheaper and safer way to this problem would be a 3-second lapse between when the light turns red and the other light turning green, that way they already see the red light and the other traffic will not go until their light turns green. I tell my children to always wait a couple of seconds before going through the light. I never have understood why they are set to turn at the same time. Thank you for your time, I love your column.

"What I've seen so far is data showing a reduction in serious "T-bone" accidents but an increase in rear-end fender-benders"

You might want to consider the source of that data. Fwiw, actual FEDERAL traffic agencies like the NHTSA have virtually NO data on red light accidents because up until a few years ago, they didn't track it at all. Most of the so called data is coming from either the red light camera company themselves, or the IIHS, which is always going to favor private solutions to these sorts of things.

If this company has been allowed to peruse our traffic analytics, perhaps we could use their findings to improve our systems without having to install a profit-driven system of guilty-until-proven-innocent cameras.

As to your point of rear end collisions being 'acceptable', I ask - have you ever been rear-ended in traffic? I have, and it cost me time and money, and trips to the chiropractor. Also, the person who rear-ends someone who panic-stops to avoid a red light camera (a common reason for these types of accidents) is automatically 'at fault' for this accident in FL. Is that 'acceptable'? Some have argued that anyone who rear ends someone that panic stops is following too closely, and thats a flimsy argument. A hummer doesnt stop at the same rate as a honda fit. We have these weight and stopping distance inequities all over our roads. All cars don't brake at the same rate, period. Our summer rains and slick roads will only exacerbate this problem.

You don't give yourself cancer to cure your cold. Other cities installations of this scam should be enough proof to tell them to take a hike.

Yes, red light running is a problem. Outsourcing the solution to a for-profit company is NOT the answer.

[justme]

Nice idea Lisa.. for the most part. I was hit by a red light runner, cept I was the 3rd or 4th car through the intersection. To this day I don't recall impact as I was knocked out and thankfully he was only in a Honda or I might not be here today. I will pay for the rest of my life because of this moron not paying attention.
The delay would stop some of the accidents but lately I have seen so many running the light even later then the delay would protect. But then we probably will end up with a lot of rear end accidents because of tail gators. I have almost been rear ended so many times for stopping its getting crazy. People just need to stop being so aggressive behind the wheel of the car.
Its a sad situation but something needs to be done. Would be nice to see some cops at some of the major intersections at rush hour pulling people over for running lights.
The only way I can see this camera thing working is we would all have to go to front license tags so they can click the camera at the front of the vehicle to get a photo of the actual driver. I know some countries already use this.

[John Gibson]

Lisa's idea is a good one and is relatively easily implemented, at least in comparison to setting up this camera system.

I am only bothered by one aspect of the red light camera system. There is a built in presumption of guilt with taking pictures of license plates and presuming the driver. You are left to pay the fine or prove your innocence. For me this is a deal breaker.

[mary]

why did you say many folks learned their driving skills somewhere else and fogot to pack them.
your blaming snowbirds etc. dont you think people born here also forgot to pack what they learned in the drivers manual. please respond in your column
thank you

[CarolBe]

The cameras should be more accurate than a human observer. Just because the light facing me is red doesn't mean there is red across the street or that there is green to either side. Besides the time for the yellow and the arrows, delays are built in. Most of the time there is a perception of a red-light runner when it just isn't so. The one who hit me was, however, very real. Once in 55 years of driving, much of it commuting all across the bay area, is not a bad record.

[20/20]

I remarked on another thread...

"I think the most intriguing aspect of this debate is how we deem red-light runners as a menace to society, a threat to citizen safety, and a potential deadly hazard… yet at the same time we validate technological privatization by implying that our public law enforcement resources could be better utilized on things that are more important than stopping a menace to society, a threat to citizen safety, and a potential deadly hazard.

The art of politics and money; truly remarkable."

Having said that again, the two most important factors for me are

1. The continual erosion of our Constitution. Who was it who said, “Those who would relinquish their civil liberties for security deserve neither”… or something like that.

2. The more we push for technology to replace humans (workers) in the interest of savings and profit… the more we lose jobs to machines in the interest of savings and profit. Those who lose their jobs will need assistance, and those who proclaim the wonders of technology and profit will be paying more taxes to cover the increase in assistance demand. Machines do not buy good and services, nor do they pay taxes. There goes your savings and profit.

Guy,
No reason to cover that story in Miami. Obama wasn't there.

What rights are being violated on a public road? I know it is a slippery slope, but in this specific case, what rights are we talking?

Is it just the presumption of guilt? Or more?

[Tom4]

Guy--
Don't forget about driver psychology. I agree yellows need to be comfortably timed, but if you make the yellow TOO generous, drivers will sense it. Then I will have to endure a full 8 seconds of horns blaring behind me while I hold the line at yellow.

Lisa--
Same thing: don't forget about driver psychology. I have been in places that had what seemed like extra time between the red light and the crossing green light (i.e. an extended 4-way red). The result? People "jumping" the green instead of running the red... sometimes even leaning out the window to see the other light.

[Tom4]

I was Googling... I like China's use of countdown displays. Two pics:

http://blogs.chron.com/cityhall/archives/timers.jpg

http://www.made-in-china.com/image/4f0j00rBREpTvlufocM/LED-Traffic-Light-Traffic-Countdown-Green-Round.jpg

[Jim Johnson]

Howard youre so gullible. These guys lead you around by the nose.

Theyre not in it for the money, theyre doing penance via these good deeds. And our faithful stewards at city hall are merely helping the poor souls do something positive with their lives.

Every time I get nailed for a seat-belt violation my insurance goes up. Its not supposed to, according to your friends, but it does. Just like they use credit scores and tea leaves and your home address to compute fees.

[Larry]

Howard, Governor Coppertone was his usual jolly self yesterday in his State of the State address to the legislature. The man is simply not living in reality. One of every two homes in the Tampa Bay area is vacant. That's good? He was touting his accomplishments on taxes and insurance, which is in itself, laughable. Honestly, I guess the people of Florida want someone who will smile, tell them everything is marvelous while they are being foreclosed by the bank, paying $3.50 a gallon for gas, and watching their dollars being gobbled up at the supermarket by inflation. Oh what fools we mortals be!!

[Kay]

20/20, like your comments.
1) I believe it was Patrick Henry.
2) Could not agree with you more. Technology is great but when it diminishes the need for a human work force, nobody wins.
justme comments about being the 3rd or 4th car through an intersection and being hit by a red light runner. Cameras would do nothing to reduce that situation. Sure, there are those that push it on yellow and go through red but when someone just blows through a red seconds afterward, that is clearly an "accident". Cameras may cut down on intentional red light running but nothing will reduce "accidents".
Incidently, I was rear ended over 20 years ago and have suffered with neck problems ever since. Medical treatments, medication, special pillows and feeling partially disabled is not an "acceptable" trade off to me.