A little Spitzer, a little stadium, a little of this and that -- read the transcript of the March 11 chat

Hello, happy Tuesday, and welcome to the transcript of the live chat held earlier today here on TroxBlog. We started out with the Eliot Spitzer case, touched on the costs versus the benefits of the Pinellas Trail, hit a few other subjects along the way, and closed with more talk about the baseball stadium proposal.

To read today's chat, click on the "Comments" link of this announcement a few lines below. You'll be taken to a page showing everything that's been said so far, and at the bottom, a space where you can still add your own comment or question.

Thanks to everyone who took part or stopped by today! The next TroxBlog chat will be next Tuesday, March 18.

[The painting is "Les Demoiselles d'Avignon" by some guy named Picasso in 1907. An image of Les Demoiselles d'Spitzer was not available.]

Comments

[Howard Troxler]

Let's start with a pre-filed comment on the Spitzer case:

The more vocal you are about moral issues, the higher the moral imperative to keep your own house clean. While I think that there are greater social issues at play regarding sexuality,
and commercialization of such, that need to be worked out, you cannot be a crusader for justice, and simultaneously break the law. Sorry, Elliot. You were an "Untouchable" a la
Ness; now you are an "untouchable" a la pariah. It does lead though to the question...why in the US are we still trying to legislate morality? (Prostitution, gambling, abortion, casual marijuana use, etc.) -- Chris Jenkins

[Howard Troxler]

Dear Chris Jenkins: I like the point about practicing as you preach, and Spitzer himself had busted some high-profile prostitution rings, I believe. My personal taste is that I don't
care much about sex scandals or sexual failings of politicians, but judging from the majority of comments, I am out of touch.

[Howard Troxler]

And another comment that was just posted to the pre-chat announcement:

ONCE; JUST ONCE… I’d like to see the wife of one of these freaks haul-off and deck the creep on live TV, during one of these obligatory and insincere “I have sinned against yooooou!” press conferences. How she can stand next to the creep and not?… I’ll never know. I feel for (hopefully, soon to be ex) Mrs. Spitzer. She looks like she had a very bad day leading up to the press conference.

[Howard Troxler]

I have to admit, that kind of reaction from a spouse would be a change of pace! But political spouses are long practiced in their roles, and I imagine human nature is to go through with the role until the end.

[Howard Troxler]

Another pre-filed Spitzer comment:

The Spitzer incident, and a host of others in kind, should at the very least prove to everyone once and for all… that corruption, perversion, hypocrisy, and a true lack of honor
does not belong to any one political party. Stop weighing their qualifications against the size of their campaign account; stop picking them from commercials, billboards, flyers, and mailers; stop wasting your time with American Idol and start paying attention to our world and its leadership… and we just might be able to elect representation that could return the integrity and respect to what was once the greatest nation on the face of the planet. I miss
America; and I want it back! -- Reality

[Howard Troxler]

And what can I add, except, "amen"?

[Kay]

I'm with you Howard, I really could care less about their personal life (issues).
It does appear that he may have broken several laws. Big problem.
Of course he gave the standard apology. Which is really the "I am sorry I got caught" speech. I wish, just once, someone would get up and say "yeah, I did it. It was a blast!" Or, better yet, I would love to see his wife push him aside and (on the mic) just let him have it!

[Kay]

weird. similar comments.

[Howard Troxler]

Hi Kay! That's how I used to feel about all the politicians who said, "I experimented" with drugs (always experimented!) but of course, either they had no effect, or they didn't enjoy them, or as a certain president explained, he didn't inhale. I always kind of fantasized about hearing someone say, "I used to get high all the time and it was GREAT!"

[Howard Troxler]

Also honest would be to hear the spouse say: "Am I angry and disappointed? Yes I am. I am still figuring out how to deal with this. But really, that part is my private business, and you should stick to the public matter at hand."

(Of course, politicians routinely trade on their spouses and their family life to get ELECTED...)

[Howard Troxler]

An e-mailed comment on a different topic:

America has three front-runners for President. All three are traveling across the country convincing us they are the best choice for America. All three have been elected and are PAID
to perform important duties for their particular state. Why are they allowed to run for President while they have important work to do in their state? Who is doing the jobs they were elected to perform while they run for president? Our Governor, Charlie Crist, is entering the same arena. Who is doing his job as Governor while he travels the country with Sen. McCain? Isn't being the Governor a 365 days a year job? -- Rex O.

[Howard Troxler]

Dear Rex O: In the case of Florida, until last year, state law would have REQUIRED Crist to resign his office if he were chosen as somebody's running mate. But our Legislature changed the law to allow state office-holders to keep their state jobs as long as they're running for FEDERAL office. (And this wasn't a Republican stunt, either -- it was the idea of a Democratic state senator who thought he might want to run for Congress!) As to whether Sens. Clinton, Obama and McCain can balance their duties in the Senate with their campaigns, I suppose it is a matter of what the market will bear in their home states. So far, in this one, Crist retains a good deal of popularity despite the state's ongoing problems.

[Howard Troxler]

If you are just catching up, it's now about a quarter of the way through the live chat. Just below this item, you'll see a box for you to enter your own question or comment -- just type in what you have to say and hit the "Post" button. Feel free to bring up a new topic...

[Howard Troxler]

Here's a comment via e-mail on the subject of our esteemed Legislature:

I hope you saw the editorial in the Daytona News-Journal titled "Bills on dark path to lighted floor" which discussed the procedures used in both the House and Senate to keep the
text of bills secret until a committee hearing. This practice has become more and more widely used -- and really does inhibit any citizen input or even knowledge about bills which
ultimately become very important. There are two bills which will be heard tomorrow in the Senate K-12 Education Committee sponsored by Senator Gaetz which still show no text.
Government in the sunshine? I don't think so! -- JamesStP323

[Howard Troxler]

Dear James: I think you are EXACTLY right. This is another way to keep the Legislature's business secret -- the public never sees anything until the text of a bill appears, magically, as an "amendment." Sometimes you'll just see a bill that's blank or that has a single sentence saying, more or less, "It is the intent of the Legislature to enact a bill relating to (whatever)." The real guts of the bill are either being written in secret by lobbyists or committee staff somewhere. That, for example, is how the famous bill that doubled telephone rates in Florida was passed a few years back.

[Ron]

What is the point of spending $6 million to extend the Pinellas Trail to downtown? What's wrong with using the sidewalk on 1st avenue?

[Howard Troxler]

Hi Ron! My own prejudice is that the Pinellas Trail is a great public asset and tying to to the downtown is a good thing. I understand if others disagree. If the money weren't being used on this, it would still be used on some other capital project, I think, so the argument about using it for budget cuts doesn't work (I don't think, anyway).

[Howard Troxler]

Of course, my own relationship with the Pinellas Trail is pretty much my relationship with the New Yorker magazine... I recognize its quality, but mostly feel guilty about not taking advantage of it...

[Bland]

Hello Howard,

A couple of short thoughts and comments.

We should remember Eliot Spitzer did convict some fairly large corporate violators of security fraud. While I do not condone his recent illegal behavior, I can not forget how hard it is to convict the real criminals, the ones in Brooks Brothers suits.

Finally, regarding the estimated costs of the new proposed stadium, suggest all look at what happen to the estimates for the new proposed Progress Nuclear facility. Now really, who do you think is better at predicting costs? The City of St. Petersburg or the army of engineers at Progress Energy?

[Ron]

Any idea how much, overall, the Pinellas trail has cost the taxpayers?

I used to have an office right next to the Pinellas trail. I could look out the window and watch the unsuspecting trail users gear up & run once they realized they were in such a high drug-dealing neighborhood.

[Howard Troxler]

Hi Bland, and thanks for the comments. In theory, the stadium cost is "guaranteed" by the team -- IF the team is in charge of construction, it agrees to absorb any cost overruns.

Of course, it depends on how the deal is structured as to what the true cost to the public is over time.

On Spitzer, you reflect my own mixed feelings perfectly.

Ron: Ha! Where is your view of the trail, so I'll know to wave if I ever go there?

[Howard Troxler]

I do NOT know a total cost for the trail. But I liked the model for how Aaron Sharockman put together the true cost of Tropicana Field the other day. Maybe this could be a new venue of reporting, how much things REALLY cost?

[Howard Troxler]

Whoops, Ron, I missed the "used to." Sorry.

[Matthew]

Talking about thinks leaking out - not trysts with prostitutes but how the Rays appear to want more than Al Lang Field. Just noticed on the Rays web site that they've spread, like an amoeba, into the Mahaffey parking lots where there are about 100 spots for some cars and some wonderful, big trees. On their site one square building says "offices" but there are a bunch of other buildings too. What gives? What more do they want? Better yet, what is it they REALLY want? And is the office space included in their "estimate" of 450 million? Great article in Sunday's paper about how the original Trop was estimated at $87 million and, thus far has cost our fair city well over $233 million. What do you suppose the ultimate price tag of a new stadium would be, god forbid, it gets built.

[Howard Troxler]

Uh, isn't the Mahaffey Theater, like, right there already?

[Ron]

The office was on Baskins Road. I no longer work there. I kind of miss the excitement of the police raids that went on almost daily, but I don't miss having to release the guard dogs every night when I locked up.

On the stadium financing, I still have never heard the team address the debt that still remians on the trop.

[Howard Troxler]

Ah. I see the site plan, with parking and a label for team offices.

[Matthew]

Howard, if you look at the aerial drawing you'll see that there is the stadium land, then the driveway by which people get into the parking (and which continues to Bayshore - Rays call it Al Lang Way). Between that road and the Mahaffey garage there are 5 acres of parking - about 100 cars - and many trees shading those cards. In the Ray's drawing that area has been obliterated and filled with buildings.

[Howard Troxler]

Also new see parking info that is currently the lead item on our home page:

http://blogs.tampabay.com/rays/2008/03/rays-14000-spac.html

[Howard Troxler]

Aaron S. is reporting the Rays' parking study just came out and identifies 14,000 possible parking spaces downtown, not counting street parking. I will be most curious to see this.

[Martthew]

Yes, I hope the citizens get to see just what they consider "fair game" re parking. But, more than that, where is the independent parking consultant hired by the city. Last I checked they had not even found one yet. Our using Rays figures is like having drug companies pay for drug testing!

[Ron]

14,000 parking spaces. Average attendance 11,000

Most nights, it will be simple, sssuming the owners of the private lots are accomodating.

I would encourage the Rays honchos to drive downtown & find parking for one of the many festivals that are staged downtown, such as Mainsail or Blues Fest. The Al Lang site will only be worse, because it is smaller than Vinoy park and not readily accessible from north shore drive.

The more I hear about the Rays the more alarmed I become for the future we may face if they are allowed to move forward unquestioned and unimpeded as they have up to this point.

- government secrecy for the past couple of years
- voters deprived of opportunity to question council candidates on stadium
- use of city bond council to advise Rays attorneys on Florida bond law
- statements of team financials refuted by Forbes
- Kalt statements that Rays had not thought of Al Lang site until recently, repudiated by ownership statements published in Times, 2004
- broken promises by Rays such as continuing spring training in St. P - (now we know why they moved to Port Charlotte)
- allegations of illegally lobbying elected officials to influence the bidding process
- published articles stating an agreement with a developer already in place
- public statements of developer preference even before the bidding process is started
- no regard for sensitive environmental issues like filling a portion of bay ( even if only a small portion )
- Rays now also want land at Mahaffey to build 30,000 office complex
- overruns to be expected as at Trop, published overruns article by Times 3/08

Hey! St. Pete - get out the hip boots. It's getting deep up in here.

[Howard Troxler]

Yep, even if there are X number of spaces, it would be good to double-check. For example, if USF-SP is being counted, how does that compare against nighttime uses for classes, etc. --

[Matthew]

I cannot even extend our boat dock three feet, says the EPA and the Rays want to fill in .6 ac. of the Bay?

[Howard Troxler]

Re: list of reasons to be skeptical: Well, when you put it THAT way... :)

The secrecy was just wicked, and almost enough to doom the deal from the beginning. But I am still waiting to see the developer proposals and what kind of deal the city claims that it has negotiated.

IF the deal is ironclad, the taxpayers will NEVER have to contribute a dime to it, that the development of Tropicana site is guaranteed (as in, platinum bars in the vault and firstborn children), then MAYBE we can consider it? I know some folks have already decided the waterfront site is not appropriate and the enviro angle also is a deal-breaker. For me, the first test is the money.

It doesn't matter what a consultant says - the downtown parking places are for residents, businesses, restaurants and bars, airport users, and USF students who are already using those spaces.
The Rays can not deprive the rest of the world from parking just to pull off the most current municipal heist by major league baseball.

[Howard Troxler]

At least the voters get the final say. It will be a heck of a campaign. By the way, my column for Thursday will be on a bill in the Legislature to forbid cities and counties from spending money to take sides in an election -- seems timely!

Our hour is past, and the live portion of today's chat is over. Thanks for stopping by and taking part. We'll do it again next week!

Howard

Howard,

There is no such thing as an iron clad agreement and no contract that can't be broken, altered or legally challenged in the future.

Promises made today are forgotten and too easy to re-interpret by future elected officials.

[Matthew]

Howard, Ybor Centro was supposed to be iron clad too but look at them now. Bankrupt. The Trop was supposed to spur development. What happened to that? No one wanted to be there then and they don't want to be there now. If "Baker Center" is built it will siphon off business from our vibrant downtown. But I bet it won't get built, the developer will back out and we'll be left with a stadium under construction and no way to pay for it....except to take out more bonds - like they did with the Trop. Please note: The Rays have refused to guarantee bonds or guarantee that the Trop area will be built on. It's all pie in the sky.

"At least the voters get the final say."

Don’t; for a second; think that they’re not trying to figure a way out of that. And it would not shock me if they find a way.

[Tim]

The Trop/New Stadium deal will be as “iron clad” as the deal that will “release from liability”, we Pinellas County Taxpayers from issues created by developing the Toytown Landfill.

[Gene Smith]

Howard,

Just an update on the change last year to the "resign to run" law. Originally the bill was only going to exempt state officeholders running for President or Vice President. An amendment was offered by our own intrepid state Sen. Charlie Justice to include ALL federal offices that was adopted into the final law.

At last check, Sen. Justice has not declared he is running for Congress - this cycle.

[Howard Troxler]

Thanks for the distinction on the resign to run law. So there was an attempt to fix it for Crist anyway, and Justice then expanded it to include others such as, potentially, himself.

[Bob Vaughn]

Looks like a bizzy Tues.that I missed. I am still bemused by the idea of a prostitute worth 5-grand an hour....or even a night.(Month?) Also continue bemused by Times writers. (NOT you big shots). Today: Ripley wrote,
"a group of teens has climbed the highest mountain and swam the deepest sea...." I ain't swam in a long time. BV

Charlie Justice... intrepid?

Dude; lay off the crack. CJ's as intrepid as a moth. The move was self-serving, that's all.

[None of the Above]

As to the article this morning regarding the fact that the Rays believe that there is adequate parking in the area…

Correct me if I am wrong, but during the permitting process that all commercial site construction goes through, or the impact phase, is not one of the criteria for determining whether or not something can be built on a site depend, heavily, on the number of parking space available to handle the customers…

If I am correct, then right from the outset it would appear that the current proposal – or any proposal for that matter – for a stadium on that site, a site having or providing little or no parking OF IT”S OWN, would not even be considered for permit under those circumstances, say if it were a 7-11, Wal-Mart, or some mom and pop type of storefront.

Just wondering…

[None of the Above]

Intrepid...

Charlie Justice...

in the same sentence...

You're Kidding Right...

and, just to be sure I looked up Intrepid ( just to be sure that I understood the meaning of the word -- I did ) and no where could I find the word Self-serving...

Charlie is many things, Intrepid is not one of them...