The baseball stadium: Yes, no or 'we'll see'? Read the transcript of the March 18 live chat

Without a doubt, the proposed waterfront baseball stadium in St. Petersburg, and the just-opened proposals from developers, were Topic A in today's weekly live chat here on TroxBlog.

Both the skeptics and preliminary supporters of the stadium made several good points. Opponents cited the heat, parking problems, and environmental issues, and whether the city's past secrecy was a deal-breaker. Supporters, or at least those who argued that we need to know more, asked how opponents could make up their minds without knowing all the facts. As for me, Johnny-one-note that I am, I said the main factor in the decision needs to be the terms of the contracts.

We also had a little talk about the Democrats' decision not to hold a new Florida primary and what voters should think of it. We even had a couple of comments on the Tax and Budget Reform Commission.

To read a transcript of today's chat: Click on the "Comments" link a few lines below. You'll see a page with everything that's been said so far, and a space at the end for you to add your own thoughts.

Thank you to everyone who stopped by or took part in today's live chat, and I hope you'll consider stopping by again next Tuesday at noon for the next one.

Comments

[justme]

Hi Howard.. Happy Birthday tomorrow.

[guy]

Lets blog about the election,
I don’t think Americans want the foxy Clintons back in the henhouse.
Nor Soro’s far left’s American Idol Barack Obama, he could turn out to be something like Hugo Chavez.
Two weeks ago the US Navy shot down a runaway satellite from a small Destroyer, bobbing around in the Pacific Ocean, with one shot. It didn’t get the press coverage it deserved, but it told the world powers that “we are back”. Imagine this, everything was moving at over 1000 mph.
The Clintons would have spent a lot less money and sent someone like Janet Reno after it with a box of bottlerockets, from one of their pardoned friends luxury yachts. But they would have saved a few million bucks, so they could build a new wing on their library.
I predict that just before the election, some young nerdy guy, sitting at a computer in the Pentagon, will take out Bin Laden with a missile fired from a drone aircraft half way around the world. He wants to do it now, but they are making him wait till September.
When poor old John McCain stumbles into the Whitehouse he might be carrying a little grudge about those crippled arms, so if your playing the market, watch the price of gasoline plummet, and the chance’s of water-boarding going up.
Watch no name go crazy!!!!!

[Howard Troxler]

Here's a comment pre-filed by a reader named "IMA Wondering":

Not that Hillary is any less self-interested, but why do you think some Florida Democrats still support Obama?

He was OK with their primary election disenfranchisement. Still, he sneaked into the state to collect big bucks checks while shunning the voters--as he'd agreed to do. He excused all this by saying that, though he is a "new kind of leader," he was "just following the rules."

Now, he says the Florida delegates can be "allowed" if he gets to decide how the Democrats voted back in January.

Are his Florida supporters like some victims of domestic violence--somehow held in place by a sick pathology that craves more abuse?

[Julie Clone]

If we vote the new stadium down in November, what then?
How do we keep the Taxation and Budget Reform Commission from enacting CP0020, allowing tax support of faith based charities?
And I voted in January; I don't want to vote again, I want my vote to COUNT

[Howard Troxler]

HI justme, and thank you!

Hi Guy, and thanks for the vigorous chat kickoff.

To IMA Wondering: I agree with your assessment of Obama's treatment of Florida. But you already know the literal answer to why some Fla Dems would be for him anyway: Because they like something about him that outweighs his disregard for Florida... it could be a rational weighing, as opposed to the "abuse" dynamic you suggest.

[justme]

Back to the Rays new stadium. UGH! I work one of the Spring Training facilities. Sunday's game people were passing out in the stands from the heat & the humidity and this is only March. An outdoor stadium in Florida is just plain STUPID because of our weather (heat, humidity, summer rains, thunder, lightning). I want to know where all the fans will go when it starts to lightning during a game because no fabric cover is going to protect them like an indoor stadium will.
If I ever get the chance to vote I will be voting HELL NO!!!

[Jason]

Howard, I saw your link from the Stadium posting thread. I'd like to hear your opinion of why some people are so strongly opposed to the new stadium without having all the facts and information at hand. I am an open supporter SO FAR but realize that the plan is not complete.

[Howard Troxler]

Howard here -- if the stadium is defeated, the Rays have said they will regroup and come back with a different proposal a few years down the road.

[Julie Clone]

ME TOO, JUST ME! I feel if we let the developers fill the bay for this project, the precedent will be set and we'll have condos from here to Tampa before we know it!

[guy]

Jason what are you doing home from school?

[Jason]

Justme, Most Rays games are at night and the new stadium will be equipped with a retractable fabric screen that has been proven to lower the temperature. Also, the current plan is to have air conditioning in the concourses below the seating.

[Howard Troxler]

Hi Jason. I guess from a logical perspective, IF you have a "deal-breaker" reason for opposing it --
-- dislike stadium on waterfront
-- dislike baseball
--- dislike enviro impact
and so forth, that could be why some folks oppose it at once. That actually makes more sense to me than anyone saying they are automatically FOR it until we see the terms of the business deal.

As I said in my print column this AM, it all depends on the numbers for me... and how ironclad the protections are for taxpayers.

[Sarah]

A big "ditto" to Jason's comment. I'm currently a proponent, but waiting to see all the information come in. I have yet to see any opponent offer actual facts supporting their opposition. In fact, for the most part, they are offering patent untruths. What do you think the SP Times can do to encourage an open, honest public debate on this topic?

[Jason]

Oh Guy. How immature. Maybe you're the one home from school.

[Julie Clone]

I hope the new proposal from the Rays includes bringing Spring Training back; I think the main reason I'm against the NEW stadium is I'm SO PISSED about losing Spring Training on the waterfront!

[Jason]

Julie, I believe the intent for moving Spring Training is to expand the fan base. Think about it how many MLB teams have spring training in their home town?

[Sarah]

Howard --
How can they oppose it based on not wanting a stadium on the waterfront?! There IS a stadium on the waterfront and has been for 100 years!

And based on the information that has been offered, the team is claiming it will be a net gain environmentally.

So isn't there an equal "wait-and-see" argument on the environment?

[guy]

Well Howard, I think we have a mole, planted by the Ray's in the chat room.
Wonder how much they pay him???

[Howard Troxler]

My own caution on the stadium deal has been based (1) in the city's secrecy, which IMHO went overboard, and (2) the city's track record in not striking good business deals. But as I keep sayin' over and over, I like the idea of waterfront stadium myself and hope that the idea works.

I do like the comfort of the Trop but understand the arguments for outdoors... plus w/ the sail and new techniques I do not think it will be the same as sweltering in the old Al Lang.

[justme]

Jason, I apposed to it for many reasons. We have a nice indoor stadium that is not that old and its in very good shape (don't fix whats not broke), our weather, the environmental impact, the @#$(*& traffic that can not be fixed because the roads are only so wide in downtown unless we start knocking down buildings to make them wider. Plus other then Yankee & Boston games the stadium doesn't draw that many fans to warrant a new home. Sometimes I would bet their are more employee's/volunteers then fans. Show us a winning team and then maybe we will think about it. I am tired of my very hard earn tax dollars being wasted.

[Jason]

Guy, guess you're another one of those people against the stadium without knowing any of the facts behind the proposal. Sounds like a recurring theme for the opponents. I'm not on the payroll just a Saint Petersburg citizen that is a fan of the team and intrigued by the possibility of having a one of a kind stadium and the current Trop site revitalized so it doesn't look like some post-appocolyptic dump.

[guy]

Julie we will keep Al Lang and get another team for the spring.
Just as we will keep the dome.

[Howard Troxler]

Well, heck, if somebody is against it no matter what, that's entirely his or her right, seems to me... don't need to have their rationale OK'd by anyone... could be as simple as being grumpy.

I AM amused at the outright claims by folks on all sides that THEY clearly represent the majority. I don't got no idea of the majority here -- but our first poll showed strong support IF there is a guarantee of no additional tax dollars being used.

[guy]

Wow Jason how did you know it was you I was talking about??

[Sarah]

Howard, I share your concerns about the process and about the city's bad decisions in the past. But in part, this is about fixing some of those. The Trop was a bad idea from the beginning, and it was built to be a baseball stadium without the benefit of a baseball organization guiding its construction (maybe that's why we have those blasted catwalks).

I just think the SP Times should be offering more even-handed coverage, and shouldn't be giving voice to the more hysterical members of the opposition who aren't offering anything of substance.

[Jason]

Justme, just because the trop is air conditioned don't be fooled into thinking it's nice. I've read that the team has spent millions each year to renovate the trop. It is broken and it does need to be fixed. It's widely regarded as a terrible place to watch and play baseball. I walked on that field during the Fan Fest and I would not like to play on that surface. Like Howard said if this proposal doesn't work they'll come up with another.

[Howard Troxler]

Re: spring training: Man, I am going to miss it. But I also miss summer minor-league ball, which was a fun alternative ESPECIALLY under the worst Naimoli years (probably one reason he got rid of it).

Unfortunately, it seems unlikely we could ever get another major-league team in the old Al Lang site, given the modern payoffs by local govt's to lure them... already, the Grapefruit League is losing teams to the Cactus League and huge spread of practice fields, luxurious facilities, etc...

(And DON'T suggest that we give them the Mahaffey!)

[Julie Clone]

That would be my hope, guy! I attended Sunday's game at Al Lang and my seat in the bleachers disappeared under a sea of Detroit Tiger fan Man-Fat! I emailed the Rays asking for a comp ticket to the Reds game on the 28th. Their response will influence how I vote in November...that's how easily I can be won over....

[Sarah]

Justme's last rant is a perfect example of what I'm talking about. All of his reasons for opposing the stadium are valid, even if completely subjective. But then, he says "I'm tried of my tax dollars being wasted."

Based on the info we have now, the projects will INCREASE tax revenues. Without the projects, we get status quo. Both the team and the city have said they won't proceed if it can't work without using tax dollars.

[william washington]

Reasons to oppose the stadiu idea:

Dreading the Bay - I have a friend who cannot even add 2 feet to his dock and the EPA is even considering letting the Rays fill in .6 ac? What about the next developer who wants to push out for "just four more townhomes" or the homeowner who wants to push out for a pool. You say yes to one for profit company you have to say yes to all

Trust - Why was this kept secret for so long. What ELSE do the Rays want that we don't know about? Remember how people trusted City hall when the Trop was built. It was supposed to be 87 Mil. It has cost us $233,300 plus and still growing. And we still owe on it. What might we end up owing on a new stadium.

Cost - The Rays say this will be paid for by the sale of the Trop and the taxes raised there. Wait a minute. That's my money, yours too. We're supposed to give it to a for profit team to built on our public waterfront?
And of thoses taxes half will go to the Stadium IF anything gets built that generates enough taxes. All that money and ALL that tax could go to us to use for public services. They're cutting $13 mill. from our city budget this year yet they have millions to give to wealthy baseball owners. It's corporte welfare.

[justme]

Jason, That surface was just put in last year.

[guy]

Howard it is such a waste of time to keep the idea of a new stadium alive.
Believe me, cost or no cost to the taxpayer, it goes down the tube in an election.
Your story about bayfront is a good example of what we remember.

[Howard Troxler]

Thanks for the comment, William Washington. You raise a good point about the words we use in this discussion. Without a doubt, the entire stadium deal depends upon the use of PUBLIC RESOURCES, that is, the Al Lang site and the Tropicana site.

It also involved the use of "tax dollars" in the form of new property taxes on the Tropicana site -- but, as the proponents point out, those tax dollars WILL NOT EXIST if the deal never happens. Also, if the deal IS done, only part of those tax dollars go to the stadium -- others go to the benefit of the schools, etc.

(On that last point, helping schools, it would be much less so if this latest constitutional amendment on the ballot passes, but there still would be a benefit).

[Jason]

The two projects are not mutuall exclusive. One cannot exist without the other Mr. Washington. When you say the taxes generated can be used on public services you must realize that those new taxes are contingent on the team moving into the new stadium. The trop will not be redeveloped until the Rays move.

[More baseless arguments]

William, as to your last point, none of that money and none of those taxes will exist without the twin proposals both going forward. There is no revenue from the sale or from new property taxes because the Rays have a long-term lease on the Trop. No new ballpark = no revenue from sale/redevelopment of Trop.

Cost: The Rays have said they will be responsible for all cost overruns on the new ballpark.

Dredging: this won't be going to a for-profit corporation. It will be owned by the City, so it doesn't set the precedent you're worried about. And it's a half an acre -- that's about two typical house lots in Old Northeast, in other words, very little land.

[Howard Troxler]

Guy, yessir, Bay Plaza was just a ridiculous year after year outrage and the previous crop of city leaders let it go on and on.

Every city I have covered in Florida has had this weird psychology making it subject to promises of being "on the map" and "a world-class city" and so forth.

That's why I said in today's column, today's bid proposals will be nice, but they do not mean anything until we see the actual contract the city negotiates.

Even there I am worried -- the Smartest Guys in the World on one side, and who representing the city on the other? Ordinarily I dislike consultants, but maybe we should hire the Smartest, Meanest Consultants in the World to negotiate for the city?

[henry peters]

The parking study is in and, no surprise, there are plenty of parking spots. But almost half are private! Like mine. They've got my lot where I pay 24/7 each year to be able to go to work or go downtown. You can't count 'em if you've not got 'em - engraved in stone. I can just see it now, people will be given a list of places to park. They go to the first. It's full. So's the second and the third. Now they're late so they park in front on my mom's house in Old Northeast and run to the game in 93 degree heat and miss the first inning.
They're drenched, angry and will never go again. After a year or two of this the stadium will be a great hulking dinosaur on the waterfront. Empty.

[Guy is a pollster now?]

Who says it goes down the tubes in November? Just about everyone I know is in favor of the plan. Many of them are proponents because they want to see the urban blight that is the Trop turned into something positive for the city. To me and many of my friends and colleagues, the new ballpark is just a side benefit to getting rid of the sea of parking lots that cuts off downtown from Grand Central and the Southside.

[Howard Troxler]

Henry Peters, thanks for the comment on parking. After the Rays' parking study came out, my colleague Aaron Sharockman made a few simple phone calls and found not all the spaces are so easily available.

I do not know what to make of the parking issue. My seat of the pants thinking is that it will basically work itself out. I hear from folks in Boston and other cities saying exactly opposite things, some saying the urban parking-less stadium works great, others calling it a disaster. Also, of course, mass transit is a factor, but proponents say it hasn't been a problem even in places where mass transit is not as well established.

[Sean]

Justme,

I was at fanfest as well. You want to know why Carl Crawford won't be able to keep his speed up for the length of his career? It is that surface. It is hard! His legs are going to be shot.

I don't care if they just put it in last year. My Uncle just bought a 3rd 40+ inch high def TV, Does he need it? No, but it is his money and he can spend it how he wants. To my knowledge though all they did to the outfield was shorten the warning track. The Fieldturf has been in for a couple of years.

[Sarah]

Henry, the parking argument has been made in every city that has built an urban ballpark, and in every city, it turns out fine.

The study took into account that a decent percentage of the private spots would not be available. It only counted some of them. Plus, tons of people are lining up to put their spots in the mix. Did you read Sharockman's article? Bayfront, USF, and even the SP Times have all said they're in. USF and Bayfront are two non-profits that stand to make a sizable chunk of change off parking.

[Howard Troxler]

Can I admit to something that sounds terrible? At times I have wondered, if they offered to wave a magic wand and put International Plaza on the Tropicana site, how I would respond. Pinellas IS losing tax dollars and retail business to Hillsborough, and has not kept up in the modern retail department.

God, there, I have outed myself -- I am secretly a Florida mall developer...

[Julie Clone]

I would encourage everyone to keep an eye on the Florida Taxation and Budget Reform Commission at www.floridatbrc.org -- you can read all their proposals and all 25 members have email links right there for comments...watch out for CP0020, ya'll!

[William Washington]

Having studied the current contract between the Rays I am astonished that the Times has not brought up the fact that we can develop the Trop. area RIGHT NOW and get the taxes everyone wants and the cash for the land. Here's how it works - check out the contract yourself under "air rights".
You keep the Trop, sell the rest of the land, use part of that money to erect a 7,000 car garage(S)and split the rest of the proceeds with the Rays. They use their half to fix up the Trop (ideally) and the City uses their half for city purposes. The developer then puts up houses and parks, stores and restaurats around the nice, air conditioned Trop and the City get ALL the taxes (not just half) for school and roads, fire and libraries. And no one has to fork over 450 + mill. for a stadium whose mass wlil dominate the waterfront and attendees clog downtown so that no one else will be able to use the city on game nights. It's a win/win situation. We develop the Trop area, get taxes, create jobs and improve the whole mid-city area - if the market will bear it. Remember - the Trop was supposed to spur developmet. Seen any lately?

[Howard Troxler]

Julie Clone, thanks. Is that the amendment you mentioned previously that would broaden the state's opportunity to support faith-based stuff? Is that a school voucher amendment?

[guy]

Jason, Why sign my name to such a stupid letter.
I doubt if you have many friends or colleagues, and no one I know favors a new park.
NONE

[justme]

LMAO good one Howard...

[Howard Troxler]

Ah here it is:

"A resolution proposing an amendment to Section 3 of Article I of the State Constitution to repeal a limit on the use of public revenues in aid of religious organizations and entities, and to prohibit individuals and entities from being barred from participating in public programs because of their religion."

http://www.floridatbrc.org/proposals11_20.php

Here is "The Blaine Amendment": CP0020; EGADS!!!!
A resolution proposing an amendment to Section 3 of Article I of the State Constitution to repeal a limit on the use of public revenues in aid of religious organizations and entities, and to prohibit individuals and entities from being barred from participating in public programs because of their religion.

[IMA Wondering]

Howard

It is so nice of you to say that the people who ignore their own disenfranchisements and still support those participating in the disenfranchisement "could be a rational[ly] weighing" things, but what do you think should weigh more in an American's mind than having her vote counted?

I mean...isn't the vote, the only thing that keeps the government accountable to the people?

Don't we have a case where politicians are deciding whose vote counts rather than voters deciding whose going to govern?

Isn't it just completely upside down?

Shouldn't we be mad?

[Howard Troxler]

Wm Washington, I will take your word on the city's ability to redevelop part of the existing site -- I assume that the garage would fulfill a contractural obligation of the city to provide parking?

There is still the underlying question of the "shelf life" of the Trop... now 20+ years old. I believe the Rays when they say that this becomes a question of rapidly diminishing economy of scale over the next few years, kind of like putting more and more money into an old car instead of making payments on a nice new one.

[guy]

Ahh yes Mr. Washington a breath of fresh air.
At last someone not twisting the truth.

[Guy is psychic now?]

Um, Guy... no one "signed your name" to that posting. The signature was further commentary, sarcasm as it were. I wrote it, and no, I'm not Jason, nor am I employed by the Rays.

Since neither of us are pollsters, I won't argue the numbers with you. But I do find it extremely difficult to believe that NO ONE you know favors the plan. I mean, the SP Times poll months ago found that 40% favored it right off the bat, and many more favored it if certain conditions were met.

[Jason]

Guy, you're an absurd man. Let me guess...a pathetic old crusty shadow of your younger self? Too set in your ways to possibly see anyone else's point. Am I close?

[Howard Troxler]

Hello again, IMA! Well, if I were a Democrat, it would be pretty basic to ME that my vote didn't count. I would not be impressed with any candidate who sucked up to the early states at Florida's expense. Unfortunately, that category includes BOTH of the leading Dems... the other one now being a Hillary-come-lately Florida friend, true?

[Julie Clone]

Sorry, Howard, for the duplication of effort; I really get worked up over this separation of church and state controversy working itself into this committee; this is all the work of Bush-Appointee Patricia Lavesque. I am comforted that the hero of the science standards debate, Roberto Martinez, is also on the 25 member board. BTW, who are the 4 who voted against the sales tax swap today?

[justme]

Sean, I work at Trop and no not for the Rays but for one of their many subcontractors. That was new turf last season. The management team was all ga ga over it when we had to go to our Rays University Training last year. We got to walk on it before they put the fill in as well as after. It was all new. They were telling us all the "new" and improved things they did to the stadium which I will say was nice. Just wish they could get us out of the bottom.

[Howard Troxler]

All right, y'all -- knock off the personal comments. Except those you want to direct against thick-skinned ME. :)

[Howard Troxler]

We had the 4 no votes in the paper... I believe folks with business or retail connections worried about the impact of a higher sales tax, and shifting tax burden from property to the retail sector. An interesting tradeoff, to be sure!

[guy]

Your right Jason, but too honest to sign someone elses name and to smart for the likes of fools.

[Science]

Jane Clone - Concern about filling the bay? 0.6 acres is minimal - and if you talk about precedent.. have you been to Apollo Beach? Shore Acres? Snell Isle? Nearly all fill there. The Rays would have to mitigate for those 0.6 acres of impacts. And the current Al Lang has NO stormwater treatment, so untreated stormwater flows right into the bay - this is WAY worse than 0.6 acres of fill, even if there are small seagrass patches. The new stadium would have complete stormwater capture - no direct flow to the bay. Nutrient filled stormwater significantly impacts seagrass through decreased water quality. If anything this stadium plans to be a MAJOR ecolocal benefit.

[Sarah]

I'm a Democrat, and I frankly don't care how or whether they count my vote. I just want the squabbling to end so we can focus on what really matters: winning in November. The longer we draw this out, the weaker we make our nominee. They both signed that stupid pledge, and neither of them should be whining about it now.

How about they seat half our delegates, using the proportions from the 1/29 vote? Crazy Howard Dean is happy because we got punished for violating his sacrosanct schedule, and it doesn't unfairly impact the delegate race by giving Clinton the lead when neither of them campaigned here.

[guy]

Sorry Howard

[justme]

LMAO Howard you have thick skin? Ok so does that mean we can pick on you tomorrow when you start teetering toward over that hill? :D

[Howard Troxler]

Howdy, Science, thanks for the comment -- just to make sure I understand, the new stadium site has 100 percent onsite retention for stormwater runoff? I know that one of the selling points was that the thing could basically be hosed down, saving zillions a year, compared to the indoor Trop which cannot.

[William Washington]

Yes, Howard, the city has a contract to provide 7,000 parking spaces. But the question of shelf life is a concern. Look at the age of Fenway Park. The citizens of America has to stop with this revolving door of new stadiums. The "new stadium" is a standard of investing in a franchise. You buy a team with an oldish stadium, coerce the city to build you a new one and presto, the value of your franchise doubles then triples. When you sell, you get to keep the profits - profits made on the taxpayer back.Currently Forbes estimates the value of the Rays franchise at 267 billion. The new stadium that the city gave the Dallas Cowboys last year added about $350 million to their value. Instantly. If the City were to build the Rays ownership group a stadium on our public waterfront what would you estimate that the value of their franchise would increase to? And the Rays keep that increase. We don't.
These Wall St. Guys made their fortunes with other people's money. I don't want to have them made gazillions more with MY money.

[Sarah]

Sorry, one last posting on this point.

See, all you stadium opponents...read Science's post. THAT is how you offer facts to support your position. Not unfocused animosity, not unsupported conjecture. FACTS. Can we please raise the level of this debate by having everyone follow this model?

[Howard Troxler]

(Laughing) 49 is still on this side of the hill, in my book. Besides, it's just a number.

Thanks, Guy.

Sarah, that makes sense to me. And you are right about the damage to the November campaign. Although our political writers had an interesting story the other day, on the scenario that Florida might not be essential to a Dem victory? Seems weird...

[Julie Clone]

Science: Thanks for the enlightenment. And the name is Julie Clone, not Jane.

[Jason]

I think you mean $267 million Wiliam, not billion. Hate to be a cynic but is it a bad thing for the franchise's value to increase? You would prefer they operate the franchise without the benefit of their investment growing?

[Howard Troxler]

William Washington, thanks -- in fact, given recent events, I would say the Wall Street guys made money with EVERYBODY else's money!

Since a lease is a lease, we could in fact hold the Rays to it, and keep 'em there. Part of me wonders at what point Major League Baseball would just cheerfully write a check and break the remainder of the lease.

[Jamie]

Howard,
The Rays have done an incredible amount of work on the environmental issues. They're planning for it to be LEED-certified. That's a huge advancement. For any number of reasons, there will be a major improvement of the Trop in this area, and losing a half-acre of Bay is a very minor tradeoff, especially when you consider the information Science just explained.

[justme]

I agree Howard.. But I just wanted to lighten up the chat here. Besides Howard I am a whole week older then you.. so I can razz ya about turning 49, I sure got it last week.. We need to prepare for next year.. AARP here we come.. ha ha ha ha ha

[Julie Clone]

The clock is ticking, Rays! Either I get comped a ticket to the Reds game on the 28th or I vote no in November! Seriously, though, I love the Rays...anyone know where I can get a "Gomes" shirt without ponying up $99?

[Howard Troxler]

Bottom line for me on all this is the contract. If the city "only" signs a contract where the developer "agrees" to provide X amount of construction, tax revenues, etc. -- that ain't good enough. Contracts were made to be broken, rewritten, ignored and extended, and they disappear in the face of Chapters 11, 7 and so forth. Like I said this morning, my starting bargaining position is to have platinum bars in a bank vault, with the city holding the only key. We can negotiate from there. :)

[Howard Troxler]

Hi Jamie! I confess to you I have not closely looked at the enviro tradeoffs involved in the dredge and fill issue, or the permitting problems, being more focused personally on the financial angle. I don't know whether the LEED benefits, touted carbon footprint, etc. outweighs the other stuff. It might be "only" .6 of an acre that can be compensated for, or it might be the most important .6 acre on the whole coast, I am truly ignorant of which!

[Julie Clone]

As a first-time participant, may I say, "Thanks Howard" and fellow participants for a lively discussion.

[guy]

Wow that was a whole hour~~
Incredible

[justme]

WELL said Howard.. Platinum Bars in the bank is exactly what it would take for me to be for it. As a taxpayer & native to St Pete I have seen way to many promises by our officials and then broken.

[Hammer]

Pinellas has 1000's of empty (non tax revenue producing) units as it is. What makes people think that adding more (Trop site) will boost anything?

[Science]

Stormwater capture is part of the clean water act - which was not around when Al Lang was built. New development must have a stormwater pollution prevention plan approved by the FDEP. A site along the bay will be required to capture and treat all run-off before before it flows to the bay. There was talk about an underground storage system - not sure where I read that. Because this is a new development, they would have to treat 100 percent of stormwater. And treating stormwater / water qualiity is the major variable in seagrass and bay health now that nearly all point sources have been addressed.

[ENough]

I for one prefer support for the arts for which the city, county and state have implemented drastic funding cuts. Historic preservation in the city is virtually non-existent yet few citizens get bent out of shape over it. Are sporting events so much more important than culture? Please convince me that this stadium isn't just another scam for rich folks to steal tax dollars.

[Ron]

All right, I'm a little late to this blog, but I have to laugh at the suggestion that stadium opponents should not be against it because not all the facts are in. It is exactly the opposite. How can you support anything without knowing all of the facts first?

[Howard Troxler]

Julie, thank you for coming! I have tried to have these chats on a weekly basis, schedule permitting, on whatever the current topic has been. The stadium has been a dominant topic since the plan was revealed in November, but we've also spent a lot of time on taxes, property tax reform, the Legislature and other stuff... any topic welcome.

[justme]

Hey Julie... ebay.. LOL Try googling for it ..

[Howard Troxler]

Howdy Ron.

[Howard Troxler]

I am game for going on a little bit as long as folks have something to say. (Not that you actually NEED me to be here to keep posting comments, but it's kinda fun.)

[get-smart]

By keeping the new stadium a secret, the mayor and city deprived us of an important issue that needed to be aired for our election of our new city council members. I guess the mayor and friends didn't want to take a chance that any of the city council candidates declare themselves opposed to the stadium and God Forbid win. Maybe the State Attorney needs to investigate these people.

Science,

The Desal (white elephant) dumps approx 19-million gallons of brine into Tampa Bay each and every day. The Bay is very close to dead as is.

I doubt that will stop any developers from getting what they want via the politicians they fund.

[Jason]

Hey Ron, I stated I was SO FAR a supporter. The team has stated it will not pursue the new stadium if new taxes are imposed on citizens. There IS something wrong with being against the stadium for not existant reasons. Be against the stadium because you hate baseball, or hate change, or anything else so long as it's not some cliched untrue reason.

Jason,

Property owned by taxpayers IS tax dollars.

[Science]

Certainly not the most important 0.6 acres in the bay - especially compared to Terra Ceia or the east side of the bay. The envioronmental consultant for the Rays (Janicki) is one of the most respected scientists in the area. No I do not work for them, but have worked with them in the past - very well respected. Howard - you may want to check in with Janicki for a run down on the eco side of this project. I am sure that they will confirm the tradeoffs, etc.

[Howard Troxler]

Hi get-smart. I was really angry about the city's secrecy and a couple of times demanded that we have a "do-over" of the city elections. In the end for me personally I decided it is not a deal-breaker, in part because the Rays themselves wanted to go public before the city would allow it.

BUT BUT BUT there had better not be anything else out there, and these new proposals had better be 100 pct in the sunshine... if for example we ever found out the city had signed ANOTHER 'economic development agreement' I would think the whole thing should collapse in a heap of rubble and dust.

So tell me, Science... exactly what is "the most important 0.6 acres in the bay"?

I'm currious!

[guy]

High Fives Ron.

The Fix is not in this time around

[Science]

1:04PM The Bay is dead? By nearly all accounts (water quality, fisheries, etc) it is healthier than it has been since the 1950's. I wish I could just throw out baseless claims, but I think facts provide a little more solid footing....

[Howard Troxler]

I said "was" really angry and should have said "am." As a secondary issue, although it is subsumed by the voters' ultimate decision on the stadium, I remain ticked off that the City Council promised to designate Al Lang as a waterfront park in the interim, then went back on its word.

Both of these experiences teach a lesson: In the upcoming process we can't rely on ANY oral, verbal or non-binding "assurances" from the city. Its mere promises are worth nothing -- all gotta be up-front in the contract.

You're wrong, Science; save the spin and get back to work for the new york boys. Your gig is up.

[justme]

Personally because of the secrecy and all the other crap.. how can us taxpayers be guaranteed they are giving us 100 percent? Impossible. They really don't know total cost or all the total details til they start to unfold, then all of a sudden.. oops we need more money for this.. or for that..
Like our mayor.. I don't trust that man!

[William Washington]

The "no new taxes" is trotted out all the time. You give Trop taxes to the Rays for their stadium. They are not new, they are generated (maybe) by Trop development. Now....along down the road comes the collapse of the road to the Pier, say. Eeeekk, we need money to fix it. Sure would be nice to have those Trop taxes. But we don't. The Ray's - a for profit group - are making millions off the stadium we gave them. So we take out new bonds, add new taxes. Only these are called Pier Road taxes. They are NOT Rays taxes. They've covered. But we're not.
As I said earlier. We can develop the Trop area RIGHT NOW and get the taxes for our city's needs - not those of a bunch of, yes, savvy NYC investors.

[guy]

Howard you must have missed the "TEE HEE'S when Bay Plaza was courting Leslie Caron~~`Really funny

[Science]

UNNAMED 1:09pm: Not sure where the most important 0.6 acres are - but I know for sure that they are not in an urban setting that receives direct stormwater runoff and is currently bound by seawalls and under an existing marina. As a side note... baseless posts are the big downside of blogs. Anyone can say anything without any support. Silly.

[justme]

contracts are only as good as the piece of paper they are written on. unfortunately can be broken all to easy.

[Sarah]

Re: the secrecy and lack of sunshine, we're agreed, Howard. But I too was swayed by the documents released showing the Rays wanted to go public months before the story leaked. Personally, I think the Mayor wanted to hold this hostage for his own purposes. While I don't trust anything he wants, I do think this new ownership group has been 100% stand-up in all their dealings. And they've been a much better community partner than the Naimoli folks too. So, I'm willing to give them the benefit of the doubt and really hear them out on this, regardless of how our Keystone Cops city officials behaved.

[Howard Troxler]

Justme, that worry has crossed my mind. There is no legal way we could know if the city and Rays had signed any other secrecy agreements, as is -- I would even toy with the idea of wanting to see contract language asserting that no other agreements, previous or subsequent, had been signed or were binding upon the parties! Like Ronald Reagan said of the Commies -- trust, but verify. :)

[Hammer]

This whole deal should be shot down; period… for the simple fact that by not shutting it down, the elected officials who lied and engaged in behind closed-door dealings will have learned nothing at all… and will do it again and again.

Sometimes lessons worth learning come with a price…

[get-smart]

Well Howard you're the news guy. I think it wouldn't hurt to check the soft money non-profit orgs of these local politicians and see who is feeding them money. I would believe you might see local developers sending them money via lobby groups. Long live the Internet!

[Julie Clone]

Clone out....gotta check my MasterCard for fraud since I shop at SWEETBAY!!!!

[Howard Troxler]

Sarah, thanks -- I think the mayor has as much as said that one of the things he wants is more of a "St. Petersburg presence" in the team name. I think the team would be nuts to rename itself "St. Petersburg Rays." Some speculation exists they would end up with an Anaheim kind of deal (Florida Rays of St. Petersburg)? Still seems clunky to me. But as I said earlier, St. Pete is awfully parochial and desperate to Be On The Map.

[Howard Troxler]

Hammer, I cannot argue!

get-smart, indeed I think the paper noted that the Rays were making campaign contributions, and I believe to Earnest Williams, the city council member in the state House 55 race... a good suggestion to do a universal search though.

[guy]

The new Stadium plan saves millions by having the Fans pee right into the Bay.
Because of the steroid scare the players have their own facility so the sharks cannot be affected.

[Howard Troxler]

Julie, bye -- believe me, as customers of that store we have double-checked our bank records too. Sheesh. We might even go back to being those Uncool People in the commercials who use checks or cash...

[Howard Troxler]

Guy: (laughing)

[Sarah]

Amen to that, Howard. But I do think that IF all the numbers work out, this is a chance to improve St. Pete dramatically. I don't know if it gives us any kind of national presence (I mean, really -- we're a sleepy little burg of 250,000 people), but it will improve quality of life for those of us here. Developing the Trop site the way they're talking about would be a huge boon to downtown.

[Howard Troxler]

Oooh, I do not think we are allowed to say "sleepy little burg."

(Laughing again) I remember how offended the city leaders of St. Petersbrug were when the Tampa Tribune referred to the downtown as "a particularly pinched Albanian village." Folks STILL remember that insult and it was 20 years ago.

[get-smart]

With all due respect, you do not know if the Rays wanted to come out early with this or not. They can say anything. The Rays owners come from Goldman Sachs. These guys don't care about anybody but themselves. These guys and the ex-governor of New York are cut from the same cloth.

[guy]

Howard You just have to extend the time from now on.
It is just getting too good.

[Howard Troxler]

Well, I thought we had documented an exchange last fall where the Rays and the city were disagreeing over when to go public. But your overall point about them being Very Smart Guys is true, and goes to my earlier question as to whether the city is going to have Very Smart Guys negotiating for our side as well.

[Donna]

We know enough of the facts. The Times has printed the numbers. We owe 93 million in principal for the Trop that they want to tear down. They WILL collect taxes to pay this. The Rays proposal says use all tax revenue after the sale of the Trop for the new stadium. This city is not that rich. 500 million to move a stadium 16 blocks is nuts. I agree with everything in Howard's column today.

[Howard Troxler]

Well, this has been a great discussion, with lots of well-made points by folks of different points of view. I am grateful for everyone who stopped by.

As always, I'll leave the comments field open for anyone who wants to keep adding to the conversation.

I hope you will consider stopping by next week's live chat, same time and same place. Who knows what the hot topic will be by then?

[Howard Troxler]

Donna, thanks for the comment... I can't wait to see the details of the developers' proposals and how specific they have been about the terms.

Happy Tuesday to all!

Howard

[Jasonhouse]

It's too bad that both the real estate market and state government are in such a shambles right now... The Trop site would have made a great spot for something which would truly add to the local economy, like a new university, or a conference center (like the Gaylord brand, for ex), or maybe a low tax 10 year 'enterprise zone', to lure thousands of new jobs to the city.

Regardless of what happens with the Rays proposal, developing the Trop land with a strip mall and an apartment complex is a huge waste. When the Trop land is redeveloped, the worst thing the city could do is allow almost 90 acres of downtown land to be redeveloped to anything less than its maximum use. Pinellas County is essentially built out. Redevelopment like this is all the community has now to build the tax base and economy with. We need to learn the lessons of other cities who have been in this position before, and take everything we can get for this land asset, even if we have to wait for a better market to get it.

[Donna]

The thing that really gets to me is that if I want to make money starting an Ace Hardware or a Dance Studio no city is going to provide me with the property to start the business. So why doesn't A-
Rod or some of the other baseball millionaires pay for their own baseball field?

[justme]

Hey Guy... loved your 1:20 comment.. well said.. cracked me up.

As for the Sweetbay thing.. yeah I am thinking of going back to checks or paying with cash. Besides.. using my debit card for everything (instead of cash) is probably what our lovely government wants us to do.. suck us in then they can track each and every lil penny we spend.
Oh speaking of which. They keep lowing the prime to help with the home buying but what are they going to do to help the huge finance charges the credit card companies are charging these days? And they wonder why nobody can pay them off.. it all goes to finance charges. I am slowly paying them off and chopping them up. Credit card companies are charging higher interest rates then probably some loan shark.

[Ken]

Howard and William: pursuant to their existing long-term lease for the Trop site, the Rays control the development rights, not the City. The "air rights" section in the lease to which William refers does not deal with development rights. What's more, parking garages are tremendously expensive in terms of construction cost per square foot, and therefore among the least efficient and least profitable ways to develop land. A 7000 car parking garage (7000 cars!) would absorb whatever revenues the remainder of William's development idea generated, just to pay off the cost of such a mammoth structure.

[Ken]

Howard: MLB would have to approve any name change, and would never allow the team to be renamed the "Florida" anything considering the fact that the Marlins -- considered a more important market for MLB -- already use that moniker. Also, word has it that MLB regrets the Anaheim name change and is unlikely to approve any similar moves by other teams. A better way to raise the City's profile -- include the City's name in the ballpark name. Example: Progress Energy Ballpark at St. Petersburg Field. And have the Rays agree to feature the City name prominently at the field so that it appears in television broadcasts.

[20/20]

"... pursuant to their existing long-term lease for the Trop site, the Rays control the development rights, not the City."

Presuming Ken is correct, the questions beg to be asked...

1. How did a private entity acquire the rights to develop publicly-owned land?

2. How does that happen if the City holds the lease with the Rays, but the taxpayers of Pinellas own the land?

3. Who made this deal?

4. Why hasn’t Pinellas County sought an injunction against the City of St. Pete for issuing and RFP to develop land that neither they (St. Pete), nor the Rays, own?

The deeper you dig, the dirtier this gets!

[POWW! Team]

Ken is partially right... read Section 3.05 of the lease (Air Rights). The City owns the air rights! But, as Ken suggests, building parking would be expensive... but far less expensive for taxpayers than building a new stadium. In the current economic climate, it might be best to maintain the status quo. The Rays do have another 20 years on their lease.

The air rights, however, provide another alternative that gives the City some of those future property tax revenues, and also creates construction jobs quickly. Our question is why this alternative wasn’t the subject of the Request for Proposal (RFP) in the first place. Maybe the Council members were unaware of the City’s rights under the existing Trop lease.
As noted, Section 3.05 of the lease concerns Air Rights: the City owns the air rights over the parking lots on the East end of the Trop site. The City can sell these rights to a developer for re-development of this portion of the site. To do this, the City is obligated to replace the 7,000 parking spaces lost to re-development. This can be done by providing structured parking on the West end of the site, next to the Dome. The cost of this (based on the cost of the new economy garage at the Airport) would be $70-100M.
When the old parking acreage is sold, the City first gets back its costs for replacement parking. The City and the Rays then split any additional proceeds 50-50. As a worst case scenario: replacement parking costs $100M; sale of old parking areas, East of Booker Creek, brings in $25M. The City is on the hook for the additional $75M. This is a lot less debt than $290,000,000 (the bond we would need under the Hines bid for the Trop site)!!! If the Hines’ estimate of future property tax revenues (see their bid at www.stpete.org) is realistic, future property tax revenues on the Eastern portion of the site should be at least $5M/year. This is more than enough to pay off a $75M bond at a realistic 4.5% interest rate for 30 years.
And, we don’t destroy our waterfront and create a parking & traffic nightmare downtown…. Nor do we fill in the Bay or finance a for-profit organization with taxpayer money and land!!!

[So Sick of POWW]

The POWW team cracks me up. How come you guys didn't bid on the site since you obviously know so much about real estate development? Truly a renaissance team, manatee experts who know nothing about manatees and seem to think marinas are good places for them to gather, economists who spew untruths about the impacts of other ballparks, environmental scientists to haven't performed any studies yet claim to know every micro-organism along Bayshore, tax analysts who ignore the benefits of half of the trops tax benefits going to schools and PSTA, and now.....real estate experts. Show me a qualified developer who's willing to invest a billion dollars next to an aging stadium that splits the site in half, and I may give you another chance. But...my guess is that you are full of cr*p just like every in other aspect of your propoganda. Find some other city in which to halt progress. I hear flint Michigan is nice this time of year....they don't have this pesky thing called growth and job creation.

[Hammer]

Man, this POWW group must spend a mint on spin consultants. Standard, and tired I might add, Pie-in-the-sky promises at best.

FACTS:

We have 1000’s of empty units in Pinellas as it is.
A 1-in-4 foreclosure rate, and climbing.
Not one “mixed use” project has live up to its promises as of yet.
A claim that a piece of property that starts with a 95-million dollar price tag will provide “affordable housing”.
A plan that got its start with lies and closed door deals.

… not buying it sport; time to hire a new consultant.

[Jackie]

Hammer, what are you talking about "no mixed use project has lived up to its expectations?" Mixed use projects have been HUGELY successful in the USA, and is now the dominant development design paradigm in the country. People have realized the benefits of density on the urban experience and human phyche. City Place, the Grove, Atlantic Station, and hundreds more have been met with enoumous success.

POWW doesn't have an expert opinion on parking, the environment, or real estate market conditions to counter anything the Rays have said publicly.

What is your $95M number? Did you make this up too?

Hammer, believe it or not, national real estate developers are aware of the housing problem. I think they've done their homework in this area and probably know a heck of a lot more than you. That's why the project is MIXED USE, so the overall project can have a variety of uses to protect against the economy, just like a well balanced investment portfolio. The project will open in 2012, so unless you have a crystal ball, not sure how you can tell what market conditions will be.

[Steven]

You're in the new canvas covered stadium and oops a big thunderstorm begins to role in. Out comes the canvas and covers you up. The rain begins to fall, OK, the winds begin to blow, oh boy, the winds really begin to blow, the canvas roof must be rolled back into its enclosure, the fans are getting wet and windwblown, game over, fans run for cover to avoid lighting strikes in the cheap seats next to that large pole going right up into the clouds. (I bet the seats next to that baby are gonna be free.) So, moral of the story, read the backs of your ticket stubs that will say the Ray's are not liable for any injury from lighting, etc. or getting crushed as folks head for the exits.

[Paul]

The waterfront just isn't the spot to cram in the alien sailboat stadium. AND the Trop is guess what, perfectly fine just as it is. They don't like hitting the rafters with baseballs? stop using steroids and maybe you won't hit the rafters anymore. And while I'm on the topic, that sail cover thing has a TON of cables and a massive 320 ft structure that guess what... is going to get hit by baseballs all day long. If they build this concrete monster, they'll be complaining very soon after the first inning. Who's got the facts on this turd boat project? Not me and not you, unless you are Sternberg or one of our pencil pushing bobble headed City staffers.

[Chris Jenkins]

Every single claim regarding economic gains from the new stadium is completely destroyed by this one document:

http://www.aei.org/publications/pubID.21445/pub_detail.asp

[Hammer]

Sorry Jackie, but you’re dead wrong. Mixed use is a failure all over Florida. Please site one that is a success in the Tampa Bay area, whereby – as it is claimed – the people who work there at 10 & 12 dollar and hour retail sales jobs also live there in the ¼+ million-dollar housing.

Go ahead, I’ll wait

[Paul]

Hammer, you hit the nail on the head (all pun intended). Jobs? temporary construction jobs that are likely employing out of state workers and illegals. No Thanks. Jobs? Retail and service level jobs that no way in heck can afford to live in the pretty mock up buildings being shown as 'affordable housing'. No Thanks. Put a number on what is deemed working class housing/affordable housing and I bet it can't be paid for by people who will work in the proposed stores/shops. And to top it off, one group is calling this 'West End... '?? It is clearly the East part of St Pete. Sure, name something that will create confusion for visitors and those new to the area. Lets not have a repeat of The Sun Dome and The Sun Coast Dome... which baffled me when I first moved here in the early 90's.

[Harrison Scott]

Ken, Suggest you do a thorough reading of the Ray's Lease. We can develop the Trop Site now. One of the developer, aware of this option, has already suggested developing the property in several phases, one of which is keeping the Trop in place, as William suggested, and building around it.

Section 3.05 of the lease concerns Air Rights: the City owns the air rights over the parking lots on the East end of the Trop site. The City can sell these rights to a developer for re-development of this portion of the site. To do this, the City is obligated to replace the 7,000 parking spaces lost to re-development. This can be done by providing structured parking on the West end of the site, next to the Dome. The cost of this (based on the cost of the new economy garage at the Airport) would be $70-100M.

When the old parking acreage is sold, the City first gets back its costs for replacement parking. The City and the Rays then split any additional proceeds 50-50. As a worst case scenario: replacement parking costs $100M; sale of old parking areas, East of Booker Creek, brings in $25M. The City is on the hook for the additional $75M. This is a lot less debt than $290,000,000!!! If the Hines’ estimate of future property tax revenues, above, is realistic, future property tax revenues on the Eastern portion of the site should be at least $5M/year. This is more than enough to pay off a $75M bond at a more reasonable 4.5% interest rate for 30 years.

And, we don’t destroy our waterfront and create a parking & traffic nightmare downtown…. Nor do we fill in the Bay or finance a for-profit organization with taxpayer money and land!!!