Column: Nuts, bolts of stadium finances

Well, here's today's print column, in which I am trying to lay out the way that I think (based on a bunch of conversations) the financing of this stadium deal might work.

I understand if you think the parking, environmental or aesthetic considerations make the whole idea ludicrous. For me, the threshold question is whether the thing hurts the taxpayers in the first place -- if it does, there's no need to go any further; otherwise let's have the debate.

In case you missed it, check out the vigorous comments to yesterday's post on this topic -- 55+ last time I checked -- with all points of view well represented.

* * * *

Let's talk about the baseball stadium in St. Petersburg, and what that financial deal needs to look like as it gets hammered out over the coming critical weeks and months.

The Tampa Bay Rays have proposed a $450-million stadium on the city's downtown waterfront.

The Rays say they will put up $150-million, and that they will cover any cost overruns.

That leaves $300-million or so. The city's starting (and final) conditions for taking part in this deal ought to be:

(1) Not a penny of tax money is diverted from any existing use.

(2) There's no additional risk to the taxpayers.

So, then, how do we pay for it? In theory, the money is supposed to come from selling and redeveloping the 86-acre site of Tropicana Field.

Remember that the city already has taken bids from three developers for the Trop and is weighing them.

Still, how exactly is this supposed to work? Here's one way that it might be pitched:

Step A: Sell the Trop to the developer for cash. Use that cash to pay off the debt on the Trop so we are scot-free.

Step B: Keep making the payments that the city and county are making now — around $11-million a year — to cover the debt on the new stadium.

(Even this is not guaranteed to cover all the cost, but it gets us close enough to do business.)

Now, the first time I heard this, I thought: "Wait a minute! We'd be paying off our old mortgage, but then continuing to make the same payments?

"What happened to the claim that the Tropicana project will pay for it?"

The answers:

(1) We'd be paying exactly what we're paying now anyway, and what we will be paying through 2015 regardless.

(2) After that, the developer of the Tropicana site should be deep into that project, adding hundreds of millions of dollars to the tax rolls — and generating taxes that would cover the cost of the debt.

Honestly, I don't know yet what to think of this.

In the strictest sense, asking Pinellas County to extend its share of the annual payment — which comes from a hotel tax — and asking the city to re-commit its sales tax revenue would involve "new" dollars.

On the other hand, we would be making the same payments through 2015 anyway, and after that, the claim is, the Tropicana project will cover it.

Even if you buy into all this, the fundamental question remains — what if the Tropicana redevelopment doesn't work? What guarantees will the city get in its contract with the developer?

The city has to be careful about its exposure to other obligations as well. For example, at least one of the three bidders wants the taxpayers to pay for tearing down the Trop.

There also is at least some environmental risk in cleaning up the old site, now covered by a parking lot. I hear high and low claims, but the bottom line either way is that the city has to be sure to cap its liability.

This is only the minimum, the entry point for discussion. Then the voters, who get the final say, will still have to consider the other issues — the city's character, the use of the waterfront, the parking and environmental impacts, and all the other things people are debating.

But none of that matters if the business deal doesn't work up front. If it doesn't, the council should kill the deal before it reaches the voters.

Comments

[Justin Elza]

Please visit http://www.stpetepoww.com to learn why they should kill the deal NOW regardless of the financial promises.

[Shelly]

Wow, great site. Thanks for the link. I particularly like the following statement:

"Our economy is struggling right now. Local, state and federal programs are being cut right and left. The government is "giving" people a rebate to help stimulate the economy. Locally, our public services such as firefighters and police are facing budget cuts. So are programs that help disadvantaged children.

Yet in these tough times, our city leaders actually want us to go along with a half BILLION dollar stadium project? It just doesn't make sense. "

[Carl Crawford]

The hidden gold nugget;

“The Rays say they will put up $150-million, and that they will cover any cost overruns.”

This will be the first time in history that a project will have no overruns. And one must certainly consider the applied definition of “put up”, relative to this proposed deal.

I still say the best plan is...

Leave Tropicana just as it is, honor your lease agreement… or get the hell out of our town.

It's easy… understandable… represents no changes to the current situation… and we save money.

[Howard Troxler]

10:00 a.m. -- your proposal certainly is one of the alternatives, and it has the virtue of simplicity. See my last comment on the previous blog post.

To "Carl Crawford" (I thought about calling myself "Rocco Baldelli," but I might have pulled something) -- yeah, I am right curious to see the TERMS of that "guarantee" of cost overruns. There are a hundred ways the city could still be put on the hook and I'd like to see how the proposed contract deals with them.

[Carl Crawford]

Whatever level of a deal is struck, you can be certain there will be a loophole in it big enough to slip a taxpayer-funded stadium through.

I'm open-minded, but the use tax dollars (liability) in any way - given current economic conditions – closes that door very, very quickly.

[Justin Elza]

Wouldn't it be great if the team were publicly owned and we could all benefit from its success?

Might increase attendance a little bit, too.

How about we sell part of the Trop land, buy the team, and build ourselves a new stadium on what we have left of the land.

... I'm down with that!

[guy]

Well the satiric side of me say's, "The commercial that is currently running during the games, which is narrated by "Field of Dreams" star, Kevin Costner, must already of cost Millions.
I feel this is the time to use the high priced City Attorney's to come forward with all the pitfalls of such a huge undertaking.
This would surely end support for such an endeavor.
Also "The Impossible Dream" sung by Robert Goulet (the guy who forgot the words to National Anthem at a World series game) will be POWW's new theme song. YES

[Rich]

Baseball fans should pay for baseball stadiums. Art fans should pay for art museums. Government was meant to collect taxes and redistribute them to the less fortunate.

Last time I checked neither baseball fans nor art fans were considered needy. Stop threatining us with essential service cuts while selling us on a new stadiums, art musuems,etc.

Lease them the Al Lang site for free. Float bonds for them to build their stadium. Charge them $15M per year + interest for 30 years with an iron clad agreement with MLB in place to guarantee the mortgage. $15M per year is a drop in the bucket.It's half what A-Rod makes!!

Sell old trop for redevelopment and add it to tax rolls. Increase budget and help the less fortunate.

ummmm... well... yeah, just ummmmm!

[Reality]

I hate to break the news to you folks… but re-developing the Trop site on the theory that it will add to the tax rolls… is not very logical. People are no longer flocking to Pinellas, they are leaving Pinellas… due in great part to the overdevelopment and overpricing of real estate investment and/or speculation property. Our current market is flooded with 1000’s of empty units, 100’s still under construction, and 100’s awaiting construction.

Pinellas has become the land of the ½-million dollar home and the $10-an-hour job., and these numbers simply don’t mix. We need to put the horse back in front of the damn cart, and get on about the business of fixing this problem from the perspective of a sustainable future.

New baseball stadiums and overpriced, freshly painted stucco… will not solve the dilemma we’re in.

[guy]

Test your eyes.
Blog, Blog, Blog, Blog, Blog, Vote Blog,Blog,Blog, out Blog,Blog,Blog, all Blog,Blog,Blog,Blog, council Blog,Blog,Blog,Blog,Blog,Blog, members Blog,Blog,Blog,Blog,who Blog,Blog,Blog,Blog,favor Blog,Blog,Blog,Blog,Blog,this Blog,Blog,Blog, deal.
Find the hidden message.!!!!!

I think, is it "don't order onions on my pizza"?

[guy]

No Name ~~ It was anchovies, close but free pizza.

[RB]

Do you want to be a major league city or don't you? Because, frankly, if this doesn't get done, that team is gone. Should have put it in Tampa in the first place.

"Do you want to be a major league city or don't you? Because, frankly, if this doesn't get done, that team is gone."

That's the same thing said about the Trop!... which by the way, would make a nice NBA Team venue. Hmmmmm... well, the way i see it, the choice is simple... honor your lease or hit the road. Trust me, we'll live.

[The Sky is Falling!]

Do you want to wear the Emperor's New Clothes or don't you, the choice is clear!

Either give us all your money or our last place team will leave and forever sever your city's name from the butt of all baseball jokes!

Uh...and then Osama bin Laden will move in and turn you all into tree-hugging communists!

Yeah, that's the ticket.

Is THAT what YOU want? You simple-minded, short-sighted fools!

[get-smart]

Dear Mr. Troxler. The City Council will be selecting a replacement Councilor for the Honorable Mr. Williams. Could you please have your esteemed newspaper get a definitive "for or against" response on the stadium proposal from each of the candidates. I feel the proposal has been out there long enough to where everybody has formed an opinion. Even you have an opinion. I know you are dickering with the numbers today, but I ask you, can you find one stadium within recent history that the city involved hasn't been stuck paying 100's of millions of taxpayers dollars for this drug infested game. You can also be against the proposal because you don't want to destroy the beautiful downtown waterfront. You can also be against it because you don't want to further enrich these greedy NY Goldman Sacks investment bankers who became wealth by aiding and abetting the outsourcing of our American jobs to China. If the candidate cannot answer a simple "for or against," question then they shouldn't be considered for the position. Study time is over... Best

Excellent, get-smart... excellent, and I totally agree. Ask the question and publish the answers... BEFORE the appointment.

[guy]

Everyone will just say I don't know all the facts yet!!!!!

Well, guy... then that tells me they're not prepared.

[Larry]

Your co-horts at Bay News 9 are reporting that the Council of Neighborhood Associations has voted against the proposed stadium at the Al Lang site. Once this opposition begins filtering down through the neighborhood associations and if POWW is doing it's job at getting the word out at NA meetings, this entire exercise should be for naught. The cons far outweight the pros especially in dollars and cents. I like baseball, and I like the Rays, but the facility they have is more than adequate for this locale. Like other posts have pointed out, the Rays chose to arbitrarily and unilaterally end a near century tradition of spring training in St. Petersburg. Does anyone think they really give a hoot about the community other than to suck up all of the taxpayer loot they can get? Howard, I know you are a dollars and cents guy on this issue, but there are many, many other reasons that this deal should not get done. We are at least beginning to see some encouraging signs from the city council. Let's hope that others find the courage to stand up for the citizens of St. Petersburg and not for the out of state baseball investors.

[guy]

Right on Larry

[Howard Troxler]

Larry: Yep -- here's our own news item on the CONA vote:

http://blogs.tampabay.com/breakingnews/2008/04/st-petersburg-n.html

The vote was 19-3. I think I've got the 12 pages of recommendations and will put it up as a new post in a minute.

[Don Mott]

Howard I liked the way you laid out the formulation of payments being the same since we're already making these payments and I don't mean that sarcastically. It made me stop and think, but as Larry states the cons far out weigh the pros. The cons have been beat like a dead horse so I won't go into that but I think that most of us are smart enough to know that; A) there will be hidden costs and B) as was stated there will be some huge loopholes in the contract. Most if not all of the council members are beginning to express reservations per the Times article in today's paper. I think this thing is looking more like the Titanic every day.

[Cliff]

Ditto Larry, right on my brotha from a different motha, black power, burn your bras, power to the people, 1000 points of light, read my lips, You’re no John Kennedy, I did not have sex with that wom…. oops, I think I got carried away.

… but I agree.

[earth muffin]

TITANIC!!!
a great analogy or an elephant in our back yard
TOO BIG for the neighborhood
TOO Big for the site
TOO expensive for St Pete
TOO much of our tax money (ANY IS TOO MUCH!!)
TOO environmentally insensitive
TOO much for our old infrastructure to handle
TOO little confirmed parking
TOO many bars will be built around it
TOO much corporate welfare to wealthy owners who are just greedy
TOO COMPLICATED to ever explain to the person on the street who will vote on pretty images of Kevin Costner and not on the details of how much it will cost each and every person in St Pete
JUST SAY NO!!! STOP IT NOW
or give Kalt a FIRM DEADLINE For the "financial package" and stick to it, giving both the public and city hall to examine it fully before any VOTE
Do you really think that Kalt does not have a package in place? What has he been doing lately other than getting every attendee to the home games to fill out cards in support of the stadium!!!
I am ready for him to pack his bags and move back to NYC

A look back at many of America's baseball blogs at the time this ownership group took the Rays, shows that speculation targeted Atlantic City as the next home town of the Rays. Not Tampa, Orlando or Jacksonville ( since there were speakers at the last council public hearing from Jacksonville we can assume they think its headed their way...right? Or maybe its going to the home town where all those carpenters live in post office boxes.)

It makes perfect sense to consider Atlantic City. Haven't we seen the Rays try to create a rivalry with NY? Atlantic City is a gambling town - lots of folks passing through to fill stadiums, lots of public resources, lots of media resources and Stu can drive to work ... since he can't stomach the thought of living in St. Petersburg, a town he plans on pillaging. Don't feel bad Stu, most people can't stand to look at the crime scene, either.

Folks, the Rays are not long for this town no matter what the decision on Al Lang or the Trop site. They plan on selling and leaving - OK by me, but we probably need to start looking at how we avoid the fallout.

The voters will say NO to the waterfront site. Financing is not the issue - its just too big for the site and the hurtles are far too great. Besides, Mr. Kalt is helping POWW every time he slings his condescending attitude toward the residents of our town who are growing tired of hearing Kalt call people liars, equating neighborhood associations with Darth Vader, and confiding in Times reporters that he "hates" certain people who oppose him. And of course, "mocking the citizens" as the Times reported last week. Mr. Kalt - you may act that obstreperously in NY, and we are so sorry to have frustrated you, but we are a little more civilized in the berg.

Let's see - buy out the contract, including the bond costs ( prin and allowable debt service), what is owed to city and county, projected revenue if they stayed for the next 20 years including 20 years of jobs ( would that be 20,000 jobs?), 150 million in rent we could reasonably expect to have received had they stayed, vendor revenue, parking revenue, state sports subsidy, etc. Much, much more than the talked about 109 million we will suffer if they default their contract.

They do not own the Trop site, we do. The only way they can leave in a whole financial condition is by gaining the development rights to the waterfront - they don't have to build they could sell those rights to someone, anyone, else. Easy to sell the nation's most beautiful waterfront location even in the worst of times. So, they buy out their Trop contract with the city - sell the development rights at Al Lang- and end up financially whole and free to move to PostOfficeBoxville.

The unfortunate thing for the Rays boys is that the people will never let go of their ownership of the Al Lang site. So, boys does the deal look so sweet if you can't get the waterfront to offset your payout on the Trop contract?

Actually we hope so, we no longer what you, Mr. Kalt's foul character assassination, or MLB pushing us around anymore.

Hit the road. um...that should be easier for you than hitting a baseball.

PS for Jamie Bennett - we will not elect a mayor who places his personal desire to watch baseball above the citizens. We will not forget that you handled this badly until you saw that the voters are going to say NO and now you are pandering to us? Paleezz!

At the risk of being called elitist, and a nattering nabob of negativism, this taxpaying $30,000-a-year nurse suggests that the order you put the issues in is just backward.

The people who live in the area ought to decide how the city going to look in the future FIRST. That should come before letting project momentum build, which the Kalts and Mayor Ricks know is how they will steamroll this scheme over the general public good. It should come before the Council blows right past the other first question, which is whether it makes any sense to spend a whole lot of money on lawyers and accountants, nominally representing the City but getting paid, by us the citizens, by the hour, to do their best to make a deal that “works,” i.e., outlasts the awful naysayers and the limits of their emotion-driven opposition.

That look-see money would be spent, IS being spent, just trying to figure out if the various pieces of this complex mess make any sense except to the people who will walk away with the profits. As a former attorney who was involved in some big transactions, I can guarantee that there will be lots of what computer hackers call "back doors" and Trojan Horses buried in the multifarious documents and side agreements and undertakings that will flap like vampire bats around this shell game.

The City's lawyers will be working hard, and unsuccessfully, to spot and counter and advise on these scam transactional elements and the risk allocations, but guys like the Rays Boys can afford better talent, and in that game you definitely get what you pay for. The best we who make up the polity of the City can expect to do is not even "break even." We will give up a functional property (demolished before being amortized, right?) for the hope that it won't find us holding yet another smelly and expensive bag and shelling out public money to find some other copacetic use for a couple of Black Holes in the ground.

The problem with most ordinary people is that they want to be “fair,” to hear all the evidence, and all that jazz. While the carpetbaggers who can smell a sucker a mile away are busily fleecing and looting and disappearing over the horizon. Are the Rays owners local people? Are they “invested in” or “attached to” the Pinellas peninsula or the Bay? Or do they just see an opportunity to steal a landscape and the ambiance that makes this area attractive? Read the Times’ early reporting on the Rays’ newly minted Vice President for Wool-Pulling-Over, Michael Kalt. www.sptimes.com/2007/12/30/Southpinellas/Michael_Kalt__He_deal.shtml

Please don’t call it a project: It is a congeries of transactions, most of which involve “negotiations” and “proposals” and snarky legalese maneuvering and moving money, and not moving dirt or pouring concrete or sewing up a giant sail that in Florida’s sun will have to be replaced every few years

We need to get past the Chamber of Commerce optimism that equates with the long-term good of the community, movement of large amounts of public money into private pockets, following some little inducements (some might call them “bribes”) to stakeholders like neighborhood associations, ethnic groups, laborers, and other potential allies of the Rays who also happen to hold veto power over the transaction, who may see dollar signs in the sky that keep them from seeing the manhole they are about to fall into.

[Jon McPhee]

Oops, forgot to add my name to the above long post. Apologies for the length, but it should be obvious that the question of whether to enrich the Rays ownership is not something that can be addressed without a lot of complexity, unless the debate rules only allow ad hominem shouting of insults. I'm April 17,2008 at 08:14 PM.

... and then there's all that ...

[Thor]

Hi Justin, silly little man, Thor here. Hey Justin, something wrong with Hispanic's having jobs? Looks like a board member of POPP thinks so, like you. Hey Justin, remember when Thor told you people the NAACP was for the new stadium, well Justin, looky here:

From the Rays site, a nice little press release:

http://tampabay.rays.mlb.com/news/press_releases/press_release.jsp?ymd=20080417&content_id=2540748&vkey=pr_tb&fext=.jsp&c_id=tb

Thor quotes:

"One of the objectives of the National Association for the Advancement of Colored People is to ensure the political, educational, social and economic equality of all citizens," said Ms. Oretha Pope, Economic Development Chairperson of the St. Petersburg Branch of the NAACP. "The Rays proposal for a new ballpark and the redevelopment of Tropicana Field represents over a billion dollars in new investment into St. Petersburg, the creation of thousands of new construction and permanent jobs, and new housing opportunities. It is our responsibility to make sure that the social and economic benefits derived from these projects includes fair, affordable housing on the Tropicana Field site, the inclusion of minority-owned businesses in the projects, and training and employment opportunities for the City's minority citizens. We are pleased with our partnership with the Rays and look forward to working with them toward these objectives."

Hey Howard, Thor wonders what sort of lies will come from POPP now, Thor wonders how they will change their story now. Justin, want to deny your racist comments? Thor wonders. Justin, are you sure you don't want to crawl back to your silly little bedroom, and suck your thumb? Perhaps you should. Thor, knows the truth and she always tells thr truth Justin, how about you. Oh, that's right, you wear your name on here as a badge of honor. Thor is Thor, that's all you need to know. Thor's hammer speaks the truth too. As for all of your silly little comments about Thor, Thor laughs at your foolishness. Thor has spoken, Thor is wise, Thor is brave, Thor is enjoying her pedicure right now.

[Me and you and a dog named Boo]

Way to go Thor, give 'em hell, Chris Jenkins may cry!

[Shandor]

Hello, Howard:
A few points:
1) Everyone talks about the Rays' "contribution" of $150M. This is not a gift. Per Michael Kalt, in the Times on 2/20/2008, this money is in lieu of 30 years of rent (to be technical, it is the present value of a 30 year stream of rent payments at $10M/year). This would be due to us over the next 30 years. They are merely pre-paying their rent. This is not their money. It is ours.
2) While the $$$ are key, the Rays could conceivably work out the finances, get a 30-year lease, and suddenly discover they could not build their stadium (zoning? environmental?). Thanks to the LDR tapdance last August, the Al Lang site could be used for lots of other horrible things. Do you trust our City government to protect us from such an outcome?
3) Do you really feel a structure of that size (20-30-stories high) should be on our waterfront park system? We are talking about a 2-block-by-2-block footprint. Picture several Bayfront Towers (on the North end) and several Florencias (on the South end), clumped together. That is the visual mass of the proposed stadium... next door to the Mahaffey and the new Dali.
4) At the present time, most of the organizations that have been sold or leased waterfront park land are either public (airport, port, Coast Guard, etc.) or not-for-profit (museums). The only exception of note is the Yacht Club, which pre-dates the park system. How could we conceive of giving control of, possibly, the most valuable piece of land we own to a private, for-profit enterprise?
4) I agree we need guarantees under any circumstances. Look at how well other schemes worked out for St. Petersburg: Bay Plaza, development around the Trop, the gambling ship, etc. Can the City's attorneys stand up to the Rays' attorneys? I bet theirs will be better compensated & more tenacious than ours...certainly there will be more of them.

[Justin Elza]

Thor, I am part Hispanic so no, I don't see a problem with Hispanics or any people of Latin American descent having jobs.

What's racist is when people fleeing dire poverty in their home country, like my grandfather did, are taken advantage of by businesses who only see them as cost-saving cheap labor.

Such companies also create racial tension by promising local workers "thousands of jobs" but then bringing in cheaper labor in the form of people from impoverished places, such as Mexico.

How would you feel if you were sure you were going to have a steady job for the next 10 years and then all of a sudden some guy from Mexico has been hired instead? Pretty easy to just focus all your anger on the Mexican guy, since he looks different and is someone you see on a day to day basis. Less easy to focus it on a company that got you to support the project with the promise of steady, well-paying work, only to pull the rug out from under you when it came time to start the actual work. You can't even get close to people who own/run companies like that and focusing your resentment on an abstract corporate entity is just not as easy as focusing it on the Mexican guy down the street who has a job.

And you'll notice there has been no guarantee that local union workers, or any percentage thereof, will be hired to work on this project--certainly not in writing.

It’s also racist for the Rays to shamelessly act like they care about the African American community, just to try to win the votes of those who happen to be African American. It’s racist to only “care” about a certain race of people when you want something from them.

Besides, the Economic Development subcommittee are the ones who have tentatively endorsed the redevelopment plans for the Trop site (which could be done with or without a new stadium on the waterfront). The NAACP as a whole has not come out in support of the proposal.

On the other hand, here are some groups that have come out AGAINST the proposal:
Council of Neighborhood Associations (CONA): www.conastpete.org
Audubon Society: www.stpeteaudubon.org
Sierra Club: florida.sierraclub.org/suncoast/suncoast.html
Alliance for A Livable Pinellas: groups.yahoo.com/group/pinellasenvironment/
St. Petersburg Downtown Neighborhood Association (DNA): www.stpetedna.org
The St Pete Creative Network: www.stpetecreative.com
Surfriders Foundation: www.surfrider.org/suncoast/
Florida Native Plant Society: www.fnps.org
In closing, dear “Thor” I now have to take back what I said about you being a douche bag. You are not a douchebag, you are a RACIST douchebag. You are the one who is being racist by trying to make this a racial issue and attacking me, someone you don’t even know, on racial grounds.

By nonchalantly trying to “play the race card” you have demonstrated how flippant you are with such serious matters as racism and racial discord and, therefore, how little you actually care about their origins and implications.

Again, you have done the anti-stadium movement a great service. Thank you.

[Thor]

Nice morning Justin, Thor here. Thor is amsued by your rants. It is amusing how you preach to Thor. Thor knows you are simply one of those types of people is who simply against everything. Thor finds it amusing Justin how you include these groups above. Hey Justin, did you forget to list the over 100 companies that have come out in favor of the new stadium, oops, Thor sees you did not. Justin, Thor is amused by you and your silly little postings. Thanks for preaching to Thor, she finds it very amusing your would call her some sort of racist, see how little you know about Thor,you do not know what Thor looks like, how surprised you would be at how your post above would be fasle, just like the lies you and the people at POOP spread about the new stadium and Tropican Field redevelopment. You are just calling Thor names again becuase your anti stadium case is flimsy at best. It has no merit, it is based on lies and it will crumble under the facts. Thor knows this, and Justin knows this as well. Thor is not worried about it, Thor feels sorry for you. Justin, Thor knows you are simply some tired out angry white guy, who likes to hang out with clowns like Hal and Kate, just angry people hanging out with other angry people. Thor is amsued by all of you. Thor has spoken, Thor is brave, Thor is wise, Thor is thinking about buying a condo at what was once home plate.

[Thor]

By the way Justin, ha ha ha. Thor has shown you evidence many many many groups are for the new stadium, ha ha ha. Justin you have denied this in the past. Thor wonders what lies your silly little group will come out with next. Thor has nothing but the facts. Hey Justin, the sky is blue, but you are red with anger, ha ha ha. Thor has spoken. Thor is brave, Thor is wise, Thor is hungry.

[Justin Elza]

Thor, this is the last thing I will write to you, because its basically a waste of my time and energy.

You really seem to have a lot of animosity toward someone, not sure who exactly, but clearly this whole issue triggers those emotions and you feel the need to lash out.

But when you attack people on a personal level, mocking their last name or calling them "racist" you come across in very bad way. I know you think using the Thor moniker and referring to yourself in the third person is clever, but it actually just makes what you say even worse (its one thing to own your statements, its another to hide them behind the cloak of the internet).

I'm sorry if my actions or even my very existence troubles you so deeply. I volunteer my time with the group POWW because I think its a worthy cause. I have nothing to gain personally, I just actually care about the world around me.

I wish you the best of luck and hope you can someday resolve your issues.

[Thor]

Thor is belly laughing at you again Justin. Nice little posting. Thor is not angry. Thor is excited at the new stadium. Thousands of legit jobs, a billions dollars in buildings, new money put back on the tax rolls, millions of dollars for schools, all from the Rays wonderful idea. You want, the same, more cuts in services, a nice big parking lot, oh yes and a nice little park for grass, all you know about grass Justin is how to smoke it. Thousands of people have come out in favor, and poor little Justin is reduced to silly little rants and sending out desparate little e mails. Thor finds you and your silly little poop group very amusing, but not very clever. Oh, here is a photo of Thor

http://www.mwctoys.com/images/review_stargate2_1.jpg

Thor knows you were curious. Thor has spoken (and posed). Thor is wise, Thor is brave, Thor is eating grapes from her cute little fingers.

[Charter]

Thor is a disturbed lemming for the boys. Thor displays delusional, one-sided thinking with a touch on strange neurosis. Thor causing many St. Pete residents to lock their doors at night. Thor needs help before Thor hurts him/herself or others.

Thor, please use fingers to dial phone and call us!

[Howard Troxler]

Okay, are you guys done now?

I thought Shandor made some good points. On the first question -- isn't the rent "our" money too? Well, the rent now is something like $1m a year. They would artificially inflate that to $10m a year, call that rental a "revenue stream" so it could be borrowed against.

So, yep, it's "our" money in the sense that it's being called "rent," but it doesn't exist without this deal. Basically it's a tool for those guys (owners) to borrow money rather than pay the $150m out of their own pocket.

To Shandor's second point, I absolutely DO NOT TRUST the city. I believe the refusal to protect Al Lang was a deliberate betrayal of the City Council's promise so the city can "keep its options open," as they say. If the baseball deal fails the citizens will still need to be vigilant against whatever Plan B the city has.

The other points go to whether the stadium is appropriate for the waterfront, which I think is the most subjective part of this. But as to the final point, on the city's failure to handle such deals well in the past, that's absolutely right too. Also see J.T. McPhee's point on this.

Basically we have the Smartest Stadium Guys in the World negotiating a billion-dollar deal with the in-house folks over at City Hall. I wouldn't mind it if those guys hired their own Smart Stadium Guy, but that's not the way they think.

[Hammer]

Howard,

What ever happend to Foster's promise to shave his head?

Did you ever call him out the honor his promise?

[Larry]

Howard, you need to get a mediator for Thor and Justin. And what about Hammer's question. He did say he would shave his head.

[Shandor]

Thanks for the feedback, Howard. The rent at the Trop is an artificially low figure, needed to get the team in there originally.

The San Francisco Giants pay a fair market rent for the "waterfront" land their new stadium is on. They also privately funded their stadium.

I'm no expert, but $10M/year rent doesn't sound out of line for a new $450M stadium on a prime 15-acre waterfront lot, worth, perhaps, $50-100M. Whould you build a $450,000 house on a $50-100,000 lot and rent it to someone for $833/month ($10,000 a year). I wouldn't.

[Howard Troxler]

Shandor, that is a good point -- I was thinking of the new $10m/yr figure as "artificially high" to create the revenue stream, but maybe the existing payment is artificially LOW. I lack the expertise to know but will put it on my list of things to learn more about.

Re: Bill Foster: To date he has not shaved his head. I do hold him in default on his promise. :)

[Justin Elza]

Howard, do you consider the environmental impact subjective as well?

I'm thinking you just...don't really care??? Kind of puzzled, since you keep shrugging it off as if its not something that really matters to you one way or another.

But on the other hand you seem like someone who would care.

[Howard Troxler]

Justin: Mostly I just haven't gotten there yet. My starting prejudice is that it is not the most important .6 acre in Tampa Bay and it might be doable -- I do not know enough to rule it out, out of hand. BUT before you express disappointment with me, I undertand the Agency for Bay Management has raised some concerns that I want to read. I am largely ignorant of the permitting considerations too. Since the City Council's decision on whether to proceed based on the financial grounds is imminent, and the environmental permitting process must follow anyway and will take a good bit of time, my own personal triage has been to focus on that the most so far.

[Justin Elza]

Cool, sounds reasonable.

I think the more you learn the more you will find that aspect unacceptable as well.

There are issues of:

- the loss of marine habitat (perhaps not the MOST important, but that is subjective)
- huge amounts of sediment being kicked up during the dredge and fill process, which will harm wildlife within a very broad radius
- pollution caused by the construction process
- pollution caused by the stadium itself
- pollution and disruption caused by people going to the games (littering, etc) and increased boat traffic
- wastewater runoff and sewage storage
- even the suspension wires, according to the Audubon Society, would be a detriment to birds

Also we’d have to dispose of huge amounts of asphalt and demolition debris from the Trop and Al Lang sites.

Anyway, just food for thought. I’m sure you’ll read about all this stuff the more you look into it.

I'm sure Thor can cleanse all alien and foul substances with her/his laser like hands.

[Chris Jenkins]

@Justin - 2:26 -
You can call the FWRI for the state biology impact report on the proposed stadium area downtown. It's not pretty. It will most definitely encroach upon protected species, and potentially disrupt the natural resources there, including the underwater spring.

FWRI's number is 727-896-8626, and if you ask for the library, you will reach someone who can order the reports for you, or direct you to them in their online repository.

[Justin Elza]

Thanks Chris!

[Jon McPhee]

Pinellas County funding for the SailAway Stadium?
So we slowly begin to get a glimpse of how the "stadium deal" will be worked. Just like the bump-and-grind of prices of gas and food and cable TV, us yokels absorb a series of sticker shocks, punctuated by little pauses while we tighten our belts, shrink our lives, shift attention to the next reported horror, and trudge along. All so the rich can get richer.
Now Carpetbagger Michael Kalt (that translates to "cold," in German), planning yet another scalp on his belt from hanging yet another urban area out to dry, is orchestrating the strip-tease sell of this strip-mine boondoggle. This Friday, to soft-pedal public reaction, the Rays Boys let out that they've been planning on County funding all along. Friday announcements of bad or unpalatable news are a common PR trick, since “the buzz” almost always dies over the weekend. Should we be uplifted, or just resigned, to know that, according to former Pittsburgh mayor and stadium flack Tom Murphy, who helped squire the PNC Stadium deal past the citizens of Pittsburgh and Allegheny County, "cities … will build [team owners] a stadium, and they will build it for free [at no cost to the owners]. It is what it is." And City Council Chair Bennett sighs with relief that "only half" the public money will be extracted from the city. So the Council will only have to figure out how to extract half as much life blood from the taxpayers who fund the City. (Do I mistake, or do County levies also apply to St. Petersburg residents? So what entities end up paying?)

At least the Mayor and Council will be able to say, like John Belushi to the M-16-wielding Carrie Fisher in “The Blues Brothers,” “Please don’t shoot me, I swear IT'S NOT MY FAULT!” I'm sure the rest of the equally fiscally-strapped county is equally delighted. What will next week's revelation be? That the Girl Scouts have to contribute their earnings from cookie sales to "make the deal work?"

Ask the citizens of San Diego, Pittsburgh, St. Louis and other "small markets" what buying a stadium for "their" team has cost to the welfare of those areas. Each runs a significant budget deficit. San Diego at least has a large miltary presence to suck off of. What chances to improve schools, infrastructure like roads and parks, public health care and on down the list are lost to giving a "world-class" (whatever the heck that's supposed to mean) venue to rich team owners and pampered, over-$1-million-a-season players?

Maybe it's a kindness that poorer folk are being priced out of Pinellas County. That might leave only the real "elite" to figure out how to fill the Rays Boys' wallets out of their own.

Bread and circuses. Mercenary gladiators in the Coliseum. How dumb are we all going to be?

[Thor]

The lovely Thor here speaking to you clowns from POOP once again. Let's talk environmental impact of the Bay today, how's that. Hey Justin, Thor knows there are no sea grasses near the new stadium, just two feet of murky water(Thor guesses you are upsetby the fact there is no grass there? Thor knows you like a special kind of grass. hungry again?) Thor knows right now as Justin and Chris walk down beside the bay, they like to discard their starbucks straws as they walk, these end up in the bay, hurting Thor's aquatic pals. Thor knows Justin and Chris would feel bad if this happened. Thor knows now at the Al Lang site there is a lot of dirty water and debris that goes into the bay right around there. Now, in 2012 while Thor is watching a ball game from the nice new stadium, she is happy because new and environmentally friendly construction has created a barrier between the trash and the bay, so Thor's aquatic pals remain safe, happy and wet. In your world's Justin and Chris, there is trash and unhappy seas creatures, in Thor's world there is happiness and glea because there is development at the Trop, a new ball park and a cleaner bay, which is good for everyone. It will probably mean even more grass for you two clowns. Thor has spoken, Thor is wise, Thor is brave, Thor is environmentally fresh.

[Justin Elza]

Good points, John. Seems like people are wising up real quick, though. I see a lot of red "No NEW Waterfront Stadium!" signs everywhere I go. Guess they will be popping up all over the entire county now.

I'm kind of beginning to doubt this will even go to referendum, but I actually hope it does because I know it would get voted into oblivion.

[ts]

Yeah, I've seen those too. Do you know where I can get one?

[Justin Elza]

As a matter of fact I do. Just go to: http://www.stpetepoww.com

[Ken Thompson]

Wishful thinking Justin. This thing will pass, there are way more people for it then against it. You seem to be in denial. Most people I talk to, and I am very well connected think this is a great idea, as do I.

[Justin Elza]

Unless you talk to 150,000 people in your daily routine, that really doesn't mean much to me. Everyone I talk to is against this.

I have a sign up in my yard and all my neighbors have asked me if they could get one too. I've even had people stop as they were driving by and holler up to me on my porch, asking if I could tell them where to get one.

Now that they will be seeking county money, its only going to get worse for the Rays.

[Justin Elza]

By the way, someone even just asked me in this blog thread if I could tell them where to get one of those "No New Waterfront Stadium!" signs.

And then there's CONA, which represents tens of thousands of people. They kind of don't like this idea much either.

But perhaps you know more people than they do...

[Don Mott]

Funny that you mention them seeking county money. That was news to the county commissioners since no one from the Rays organization had spoken to them about it. So lets see, the city hasn't received all the cost related info they need to decide. The county hasn't received any info at all, and when is the deadline for putting it to a referendum? Did you see the deed restriction that just popped up which they conveniently overlooked? Ken, good luck there buddy.