New stadium blog!

I just wanted to mention that the St. Petersburg Times is starting a new blog devoted exclusively to the proposed Rays baseball stadium in downtown St. Pete. The name of the blog is Ballpark Frankness, and here's a link:

http://blogs.tampabay.com/ballpark

Ballpark Frankness is hosted by my colleague Aaron Sharockman (right), and it will be a good place to check for the latest developments on the stadium front. In fact, the details of our editorial board's meeting today with Hines Senior Vice President Michael T. Harrison are already on the blog. That first blurb comes from a question I asked him -- is Hines willing to guarantee that the project will pay for the baseball stadium? No way, he replied.

As for me, I'll still be holding regular chats and putting up posts here on TroxBlog, but I'll cross-post anything related to the stadium over there as well. Not that I'm suggesting you hang out in his place instead of mine, see.

Comments

[Chuck]

In related news...

Aaron Sharockman has decided to resign and move to Alaska, effective immediately.

[Chris Jenkins]

It will be interesting to see how he handles this crowd...somehow I don't think he has the experience our Howard does... :^D

Mr. Harrison,

Given that Hines "estimates" $835 Million in tax revenues would be generated in developing the existing Trop Site, I have an alternative question?

What tax revenue would be generated over the same period if the Al Lang site was developed instead? Surely, this property would bring in a multiple of revenue to the City and County without additional investment of the citizens.

If our sole purpose is to generate tax revenue with a development then why not develop the more expensive an attractive waterfront property? Surely, that would be the least risk to assure success and tax revenue.

The stadium is already built. It appears successful development at the Trop site is much more of a risk?

Yes, I know that was not the task given the Hines Development Group. If we are seeking the best solution to raise tax revenue compared to available alternatives; which is best and less risk to the taxpayers?

Any way you look at it we can build a stadium that generates relatively little tax revenue and arguably a risky Trop Site development that is estimated to generate $835 Million over 35 years or Al Lang could be developed and generate much more revenue.

Is that really our objective? Of course, I do not want either, but since this tax revenue generation seems to be the main argument to build the new stadium, I as a taxpayer would like to know how much revenue we forego by not developing Al Lang, if of course that is the sole justification.

What are your thoughts Mr. Harrison?

Dear Howard,

I'm sticking with your blog, but thanks for the invite. The mayhem already occurring on Aaron's is as expected. Thoughtless nasty comments with little or no content.......I expected nothing more or less. Thanks for your moderator skills, hard won. That's why we love you...........you have a brain.

Lorraine

I, too will stick with Howard's blog.

Aaron has already proven himself incapable of reasoning, in depth reporting, or civil discourse.

I do not accuse him of being in bed with Michael Kalt as others do, but his manner is brusque and displeasing and I don't have to put up with it.

Carlos Moncada of the Tribune has provided a much more in depth coverage of the stadium issue and has proven his willingness to dig for facts instead of simply accepting some offhanded statements as truth.

OK - Howard and Carlos it is.

[Justin Elza]

I think my feelings are clear. You're stuck with me, Howard.

[Hammer]

The unanswered question still beckons…

Why hasn’t the County Commission authorized the County Attorney to seek an injunction against the City of St. Pete for issuing, and proceeding with negotiations, for the redevelopment of property owned by Pinellas County taxpayers?

Once this precedence is set… it’s bye-bye Ft. Desoto, hello condos.

[Chuck]

Come on Hammer, let's not get crazy here. The doom and gloom around this place has gotten out of control recently.

You want legal action taken against the city for exploring options of redevlopment on city owned land? Your bureaucratic dream land is truly frightening.

The land is owned by the taxpayers of Pinellas County, not the City of St. Pete.

[Hammer]

Tell me something, Chuck... what would you say if the City decided to issue an RFP to redevelop your property?

[Chuck]

Excuse me, county owned land. My mistake.

Brilliant argument Hammer - I would say "NO!" YOU GOT ME!

Unless you live on the Tropicana field site I don't see how this is relevant.

Some day I hope this city is nothing but abandoned mega structures because the "taxpayers" couldn't agree on the redevlopment.

It stops being county owned land once the reverter clause kicks in; i.e. the site reverts to the city once baseball(declared intention) is no longer being played there. The city would have to repay the $10 bucks the county paid for the site. That could be an issue for some of you, I guess

[Hammer]

I thank you to change your tone, young man…:-)

From my perspective, the argument is valid, and the publicly-owned land factor is relevant. Due to the incessant approval of zoning and land-use changes by our County leadership over the past 5-years, followed by the subsequent approval and unfettered development of real estate investment and speculation property… we have thousands of over-priced and empty units throughout Pinellas, and a slumping economic support structure than cannot support the market.

To build more, is simply not the answer. The “Build it and they will come” attitude, combined with the “pie-in-the-shy” promises of jobs, just doesn’t sell anymore.

I think folks need to clear their heads of all the rhetoric, and simply do the math. The cost of the property, its existing debt, and the construction cost of the redevelopment… just don’t add up to “affordable housing”. We’ll end up with another “Mixed Use” complex that is likely to slump and/or fold in mid-development because the folks who may or may not work there, cannot afford to live there… and another boatload of empty over-priced condos.

... and thank you, 12:32, for that important fact. One only has to read between the lines to see how dirty, inside, and hidden from the public this little deal truly is.

[Justin Elza]

Howard, can you please let Aaron know that unless the IP address is 24.164.23.9, the post is not from me. Seems I have a...fan club?

[Don in St. Pete]

Chuck, If this City were to become abandoned mega structures it will be because people such as yourself destroyed our planet with their megadevelopment plans.

[Jon McPhee]

Why is it that the Big Deal looks so much like a mating of elephants? Lots of grunting and shoving by the maddened, rutting bulls, total trampling of the smaller critters and foliage, a brief moment of pleasure for the principals, then the winning bull moves on, leaving a pregnant female to carry the product for a couple of years while increasingly vulnerable to predators and having to find forage for two. Then she’s stuck for more years, nursing the progeny along. All without regard to whether the local ecology can support yet another hungry elephant.

I guess one "benefit" is that us little birds and beetles and mice get to pick at the big piles of dung left behind.

At what point does “boosterism” morph into “screwsterism?”

[Paul]

Jon, to answer your question, the 'screwsterism' started when our Council made up a 'glitch ordinance' to cover their blatant lies, oooops, I mean mistake on 'forgetting' to zone Al Lang as a park. No, scratch that.... it was a flat out lie on their part.

"At what point does “boosterism” morph into “screwsterism?”

Mr. McPhee, I believe that your preceding soliloquy and tag ending should go down into the annals of "Howard's greatest blog postings" historical collection.

I stand in the shadow of greatness....have you ever written editorials for a paper??......you should
WOW...........Lorraine

[Bland]

Ditto, May 01 08:39 AM.

Excellent post Mr. McPhee.

Please continue. You may give Howard a run for his money.

I doubt the Times would hire you, but you would make a great fit at the Tribune....

[Jon McPhee]

Aw shucks... I don't hold a candle to Howard, he knows and remembers pretty much all about how the guv'mints in this corner of the country work. And he's real adept with that spotlight of his. Having said that, I just have to keep saying my piece too.

And on that note:

I like the way Mr. Kalt gets such dignified treatment from everyone. Always "senior vice president." Anyone remember how long he has had that slot? Or how long he spent in the other cities where he was brought in to "persuade" the locals to buy the owners of their particular Boys of Summer a brand new stadium? G'wan back to December of last year, and enjoy the laudatory prose at this spot:

www.sptimes.com/2007/12/30/Southpinellas/Michael_Kalt__He_deal.shtml

I've been upbraided for calling the Rays Boys "carpetbaggers," but I think there's a really nice fit between this set and that word. One hopes Mr. Kalt (again, that’s the German word for “cold”) is not going to be too successful at his specialty, the kind of glad-handing and back-scratching and little secret promises to and side agreements with one group or another in the community, as he tries to gin up either a majority of veto holders (including us voting citizens) or a way around an informed referendum on the fundamental nature of this deal.

That is, and always will be, an attempt to take something like a billion dollars of public assets out of the public coffers and place a large chunk of it into the already deep pockets of the folks who brought this steely-eyed deal-slinger into Dodge City.

All the stuff about a huge anticipatory tax base increases and a great flow of wealth and people into our cramped downtown is just so much smoke and mirrors. From what we have been shown of this Big Deal, the flow of wealth would be very much OUT of the community, not into it. Despite what some believe, gifting stadiums to over-ego'd baseball team owners is not "the way it is," especially as this city faces the reality of an economic of unknown duration and depth, shrinking resources, major cuts to the things that produce a safe and cultured and pleasant community.

Hey, I am not an urban planner. But if the City Fathers and Mothers are hell-bent on developing public property into taxable space by taxing and spending and borrowing against the City's (and now County's) future, there must be some folks out there who have ideas for development that aren't destruction of a present asset, however dirty its ashtrays may be, conversion of an existing landmark into an attractive nuisance, and further embroidering the Golden Parachutes of another MLB "jump team." Maybe those ideas would have an actual snowball’s chance in Southwest Florida of actually benefiting the whole community and generating some real, stay-at-home wealth and business.

Remember the last scenes in "Hoosiers?" Where Gene Hackman's character had his players measure the distance from the floor to the hoop, in the gigantic arena where the state champs would be decided? Even in that huge venue, it was the same ten feet as the rims in their little high school gym.

I have this weird notion that winning baseball teams are made up of players with goodly portions of raw physical and mental talents, pride of person and association, and the will to work hard all the time.

The baseball-playing part of the Rays organization will win or lose games and series on the basis of those assets, whether they play in the Trop, or Al Lang the way it is now, or any other venue.

We should hope that the pieces of this deal, including the inevitable trap doors and hidden passageways and spiked pits and deadfalls in the labyrinth of documentation and “agreements” become evident before the pen hits the signature line and the gold-plated spade rolls over that first scoop of dirt.

[Thor]

Thor provides facts at all times, silly little Chris. Paul, please, use humor, or at least learn to. Thor suggests you go to here: www.tbo.com for humor written by a poor newspaper company. Chris, Thor will provide you with the facts of the day: The following entities are for this fantastic idea: NAACP, over 100 businesses including banks, law firms, restaurants, realtors, retail places and hey, Chris even creative places, unlike you and the silly Justin, people in this town are creative, think creative, think Thor. Fans for a Water front stadium headed by the lovely and very smart Tracey. The silly puny little folks against it, silly former hippie Hal, Hey Hal, peace love, drugs and rock and roll, Kathy, (I'm gonna stomp my feet until I'm mayor Ford) and silly Justin (I wanna be a hippie but I was born in the 80's so I can't be Elza). Plus about 70 people at one beach drive all born when Harding was prez. Thor finds all of you very amusing. Hey at least this gives you all something to do other than smoke some doobie and play shuffleboard. Hey Kathy, wa wa, stomp stomp. Thor has spoken, Thor is wise, Thor is brave, Thor is wearing her sunglasses at night, because the future is so bright!

[Bland]

Jon McPhee, your the man, another great post.

May the "gold-plated spade" never come to be.

[Donna]

"It stops being county owned land once the reverter clause kicks in; i.e. the site reverts to the city once baseball(declared intention) is no longer being played there."

Can't it be said there are times that what the Rays are doing is not really playing baseball?
DS

[Rand Moorhead]

The idea of redeveloping the site of Al Lang field is a great one. Couple that idea with a creative enhancement of the Trop and everyone is a winner.
An idea that has been presented by the Urban Design Consortium, LLC, is for a waterfront concert/theatre venue to be built on the waterfront. This is much more compatible with the emerging arts district there (Mahaffey Theatre and the new Dali Museum). The Rays and the City of St. Pete should sell off part of the land at the Trop (to a developer...yes, there are baseball "crazies" who like to live near the action of a stadium!)...take the revenues and build a parking deck
and other attractions such as a waterslide or a wave pool and even a go cart track or miniature golf. This will update the Trop and keep the Rays, truly, in step with other major league ballparks that have added complimentary attractions so that a whole family or a group can go to a game (some in the group may not like baseball, yet will still patronize the stadium). There is a beer garden in center field of Detroit's Comerica Park. Many don't even watch the game!
There's a carousel for the kids and a food court. Speaking of Detroit, their waterfront Chene Park concert venue is an avant-garde design like the proposed stadium, yet much more appropriate for a waterfront. I ask y'all....just which would the tourists like better?....a hot and muggy stadium or a concert venue with hot sounds and mists of water, like in a South Beach bistro? Rand Moorhead
Detroit, Michigan and St. Pete, Florida

[Rand Moorhead]

The idea of redeveloping the site of Al Lang field is a great one. Couple that idea with a creative enhancement of the Trop and everyone is a winner.
An idea that has been presented by the Urban Design Consortium, LLC, is for a waterfront concert/theatre venue to be built on the waterfront. This is much more compatible with the emerging arts district there (Mahaffey Theatre and the new Dali Museum). The Rays and the City of St. Pete should sell off part of the land at the Trop (to a developer...yes, there are baseball "crazies" who like to live near the action of a stadium!)...take the revenues and build a parking deck
and other attractions such as a waterslide or a wave pool and even a go cart track or miniature golf. This will update the Trop and keep the Rays, truly, in step with other major league ballparks that have added complimentary attractions so that a whole family or a group can go to a game (some in the group may not like baseball, yet will still patronize the stadium). There is a beer garden in center field of Detroit's Comerica Park. Many don't even watch the game!
There's a carousel for the kids and a food court. Speaking of Detroit, their waterfront Chene Park concert venue is an avant-garde design like the proposed stadium, yet much more appropriate for a waterfront. I ask y'all....just which would the tourists like better?....a hot and muggy stadium or a concert venue with hot sounds and mists of water, like in a South Beach bistro? Rand Moorhead
Detroit, Michigan and St. Pete, Florida

[Mike]

Can everyone please help save Country Legends Cafe and go to their new website Tropicanafield.com