Here's the transcript of the April 29 chat

In today's weekly live chat here on TroxBlog, we wandered across a few different conversational fields, from crime in St. Petersburg to the evolution bills pending in the Legislature, with a few references to Socrates thrown in -- sheesh! And only a little bit of baseball stadium at the end. Check out what folks had to say by reading the transcript.

To read the transcript of today's chat, click on the "Comments" link of this announcement, just a few lines below. You'll see a page with everything that's been said, and a space for you to add your own comment.

As always, my thanks to everyone who took part in the chat or just came by to check it out. I hope you have a fine rest of the week, and I hope you'll consider stopping by for the next announced chat!

Comments

[Howard Troxler]

Welcome to the chat! Let's start with a pre-filed comment:

Hi Howard, here's a pre-file likely to get things stirred up. "A true scientist is searching for the truth, and that's what this is encouraging," said bill sponsor Alan Hays R-Umatilla.
Of course he is talking about a bill that 'ignores science' and opens the door for teaching our children creationism and intelligent design for which there is no scientific basis. He and Ronda seem to be creating some smoke and mirrors with their religious beliefs. What's your take? -- Don Mott

Hi Don. There's both a House and a Senate version of this bill; both seem fairly silly to me. The basic idea is that teachers could not be punished for providing "objective" information to students about "alternative" scientific theories to evolution. As far as what the heck that means, I have no idea. If saying "some people believe so-and-so" is an "objective" presentation, then every natural-science class morphs into a comparative religion course. The fallacy is equating a general faith-based belief, or even a speculative hypothesis with a scientific theory that, while admittedly not perfect, is at least based on actual evidence and scientific method.

[Howard Troxler]

The evolution stuff led the pre-filed commenters off in interesting directions, such as:

Cut and dried science in a Newtonian sense is pretty much over with. Most scientist of the first order in physics are searching for God. Most major religions have a monotheistic component. The 'Big Bang' theory reflects a monotheism. Ideas in Quantum Mechanics are unobservable and speculative (not science) with plenty of gambling on board (chance). The Greeks understood 'Out of Chaos comes Order' which is predictable and science. The questions are 'How does it know what to do?' and 'What guides it?' -- get-smart

Sorry, get-smart, but I find it hard to agree. First, that "cut and dried science" is "pretty much over with." Every generation that has believed such a thing -- and most have -- were eventually disabused of the ntion. Secondly, particle-level physics is a search for, well, particles, most of which they have found so far, after theoretically predicting their existence. Now, if they can just nail down that Higgs boson and determine whether it actually is the gizmo that imparts mass... at any rate, science being a HOW and not a WHY, which becomes, seems to me, more of a religious question.

[Howard Troxler]

Pre-filed baseball question:

What IS the current justification for a ballot vote initiative?? Give us the language of the question to be put on the ballot.
If you support the effort, and accept the long-term deflection of public attention from REAL issues to defer to this most divisive question to be put forth in front our voting populace, please provide definitive language including dollar figures to give us the opportunity to truly VOTE on real facts. In my mind, with the behavior of the Rays Franchise to date (and given my unfortunate personal experience with their supposed expertise in the public format), I wouldn't allow the Rays Franchise to site and build a Wally Watt in my backyard. -- Lorraine

Lorraine, Howard here. If the decision were today on whether to call a referendum I would have to say no -- but that's mainly because we STILL don't know exactly what they want to propose. Some folks have been able to conclude, on principle, that they do not like this idea; those waiting to know a little more before making up their mind are still waiting. I have to tell you, I am worried about the way it is going; I think the deal is morphing right in front of our eyes from a "Trop redevelopment pays for this" to a "you taxpayers will just keep on paying for this" kind of thing.

[guy]

Howard, I think any Tax relief is good for the homeowner.

Saturday, I watched the game between the Yankees amd the Indians att the stadium in Cleveland.
It was a sellout and had some overhead shots from a Blimp.
It was a magnificent view of a real stadium.
After seeing this I decided to name the Rays new waterfront stadium “Abortion Field”.
What do you guys think?.

I spent just enough time in the Pinellas County School System to recognize that most of the money is being wasred by a incompetant Administration.

[get-smart]

There you go Howard. Counting the number of Angels on the head of a pin. You sound like a Priest.

[Chuck]

Why would an overhead shot of Yankee Stadium make you think about abortions?

[Howard Troxler]

I think my head is spinning here...

[Howard Troxler]

On the crime issue, I imagine that the mayor and police chief will able to prove with statistics that the murder didn't actually occur.

After the gunshots near Bay Plaza on a troubled night a few months back, remember the chief quickly penned a newspaper column assuring everyone how safe the place was. Not quite mentioning, you know, the actual gunplay. I may have a warped view of these things, but, "Shots fired close to the place I might otherwise be watching a movie on a Friday night" would be crossing the line.

I think taxpayers would be shocked to know how few patrol officers might be on the street at any given moment...

[Chuck]

Looks like there are some cross posting issues. Some stuff is going to the chat announcement thread.

Either way, can someone tell me what's the deal with that particular area (Tyrone Gardens)? Isn't this a huge spike in violent crime?

[Howard Troxler]

Whoops, I posted the pre-filed crime comments accidentally in the previous blog item. Here they are:

And here's a series of pre-filed crime comments:

What is going on at the Tyrone Gardens Shopping Center? This will make four deaths at the shopping center this year - a double murder, the murder last night and a violent suicide. -- Chuck

Chuck, I was wondering about Tyrone Gardens too. But it's not just Tyrone Gardens, its the city. Why isn't law enforcement doing something about the high rise of crime in St Pete? I rarely see an officer on the streets. Between shootings and red light runners they need to be more visible. -- justme

If they don't do something about the crime rate in St Pete I think all hell is going to break loose. More people will start carrying protection and it will just become even a bigger "issue". Innocent people are going to get hurt or killed. Citizens can not skimp on law enforcement, ems, and fire as they are the people who protect us.-- justme

You guys know that an increase in the number of police isn't necessarily a crime deterrent. Unfortunately personal accountability and parent responsibility seems to be out of the question as well. -- Chuck

[Howard Troxler]

Guy, I blipped yr last comment. Be nice.

[justme]

I agree Howard about the few patrol officers out there. Where are they hiding if they are not on the street. I think its time for St Pete to let us citizens know how many are out there and any given shift. Is SPPD under staffed or what?

[Chris Jenkins]

While empiricism may not be an epistemological end all be all, when it comes to establishing a fact based curriculae for education, empirically supported conclusions have to be the groundwork. Theory built onto empirical observation provides the framework for science. It's important to realize that theory has some body of proof supporting it...it's just not complete and consistent enough within itself to become a law. Black holes were theoretical, until we developed the technology to actually observe their presence, after being led to the knowledge of their existence through theoretical math (Thank you Dr. Hawking). Evolution is a theory. Intelligent design is a hypothesis; a pre-conclusion drawn from casual observation without a body of scientific method to provide the proof structure of a theory, and with no empirical observation possible (for who could observe the handiwork of *insert favored deity here*?). To teach theory is acceptable. To teach hypothesis as theory, or fact, is not.

By teaching the scientific method, logic, and critical analysis, we have already covered what these bills purport to do. We are training students to observe, record, hypothesize, and question the results. You don't teach alternative hypotheses to less than university level students; you teach them how to gather evidence, and the scientific method. You give them the fact based groundwork which science is built on. Then, once they are out of high school, offer niche and alternative theory then, and let them chew on it for themselves, with the mental faculties and scientific education of an adult. Young children believe in the Easter Bunny. They will also believe in anything else we tell them. The classroom is not the place to fight a battle of theology. It is where they are supposed to be learning the tools for their own scientific exploration.

[Howard Troxler]

What Chris said!

[Chuck]

Geez Gal, must have been pretty bad. Hope I didn't offend you with that question.

[guy]

Gunfire is common every night occurence here in the center of the city.

[Howard Troxler]

justme: Well, everybody I talk to in the Police Department thinks it is understaffed, and a lot of people in the community do... but, as I say, the mayor and chief can prove with statistics that it is not the case.

Also, they will talk about the dept's "authorized" strength, while in reality it cannot keep them filled, and the problem will only accelerate as a wave of retirements, etc. approaches.

[guy]

Howard just checking to see if you are on the stick LOL

[Howard Troxler]

guy: I have often thought that if some of the events of the middle part of the city had ocurred on Snell Isle, the headlines would say, "WAVE OF VIOLENCE GRIPS CITY" and the mayor would be calling out the National Guard.

How about that homeowner who got shot and killed just for taking out his garbage one morning last year? So far no arrests in that case... could have been any of us, as far as I know.

[guy]

I go out in camoflage, dodging sniper fire, to get the newspaper so I can read Howards column every morning.

[Chuck]

Chris,

Plato would disagree. But what the hell does he know?

For the record, I agree with you.

[justme]

Well if our dear mayor (gag) and out chief of police doesn't get off the pot and start doing something about the crime rate in this city then the citizens might just start taking matters in their own hands and THAT will not be a good thing.

[justme]

I don't enjoy dodging the bullets so I read the paper (especially that Troxler guy) on line.

[Chuck]

An increased police presence would result it resentment and anger in certain communities. Take the good with the bad I suppose.

[Chris Jenkins]

Hi Chuck,
in my dialectics group we have discussed Plato and Socrates extensively, and the similarities and differences in Platonic and Socratic method. I think the only reason Plato would disagree with me is because he was on a search for Truth, with a capital T, and was seeking a holistic and complete understanding of man's place in existence, and what exactly existence was. Although he certainly broached metaphysics, no on mistakes Plato for the father of the scientific method.

See Chuck, we can agree on some things. Maybe we're not all so different after all. When the new stadium gets voted down, you can come to my celebration barbecue, and I'll crack you a beer and grill you a burger.

[justme]

I have to agree with your comment Chris Jenkins. Well said.

[Chris Jenkins]

"Well if our dear mayor (gag) and out chief of police doesn't get off the pot and start doing something about the crime rate in this city then the citizens might just start taking matters in their own hands and THAT will not be a good thing."

The Mayor and Police are on Pot? I thought it was the folks AGAINST the stadium that were all stoners... ;)

[Howard Troxler]

Chuck: What did Plato know? For one thing, he knew how to reconstruct long, long, REALLY smug colloquies between Socrates and some hapless sap:

SOCRATES: And would you say that which is good must therefore be good?

SAP: Indubitably, Socrates.

SOCRATES: And that which is bad cannot therefore also be good?

SAP: Without doubt, Socrates.

SOCRATES: And that if I am good and you are bad, this makes me 100 percent right and you are an utter sap?

SAP: Dang, Socrates, you sure argue purty.

[Howard Troxler]

Chris: The giveaway there is the definite article "the," which, in connection with "pot," connotes a physical (albeit metaphorical) pot....

[justme]

LMAO Chris... Pot as in the toilet, commode, the ... (ok I will behave and stop there)

[Chris Jenkins]

Ah, thank you Howard. I had heard some elderly members of my family wondering before if those "long haired hippy boys were on the Pot", so just, you know, clarifying...

*laughing*

[guy]

Most Snell Isle residents have bodyguards now.
When I think of the way the city has declined in it's safety situation, I often wonder why they blew off Curtsinger as Chief,???????

[Chris Jenkins]

Socrates would have made a brilliant politician...

"I did not say there were no Gods, I said I was not sure as to which Gods there WERE, which is a sizable difference. Additionally, because of my lack of definitive knowledge as to which Gods were or weren't, I was unable to effectively decide my loyalties vis a vis my particular theological standings with God or Gods which may or may not exist...is this Hemlock fresh?"

[Howard Troxler]

Chuck, you are right about increased police presence also causing resentment. I think this is for two reasons:

(1) There is no monolithic constituency in the areas of the city that have the higher crime rates. Some people there simply want to lead their law-abiding lives, and want police to focus on crime. Some do NOT want to lead law-abiding lives, and are likely to lead the complaints about police "occupation" and so forth.

(2) The trouble is that an increased police presence is not able to target ONLY the "criminal element" with surgical precision. Imagine, no matter where you live, being stopped by police on your way home from work and being asked a bunch of questions suspiciously... so resentment occurs from the good and the bad citizens alike. There is no easy answer to it.

[Chuck]

Ahhh perfect Uhuru segway opportunity!

[guy]

Not Socrates CURTSINGER

[justme]

Chris... I am NOT elderly by any means.. but it is a saying.. I did leave out the few other words that could have gone with it because the potty mouth filter would have probably kicked it back.. (evil grin)

[Chris Jenkins]

"Most Snell Isle residents have bodyguards now.
When I think of the way the city has declined in it's safety situation, I often wonder why they blew off Curtsinger as Chief,??????? "

Guy, I appreciate your intensity, but is there a chance you have any sort of source or citation or actual statistical information regarding this statement? I haven't heard or seen much, although granted, I don't get into that tax bracket geographically very often. If there's that much demand for personal protection services, I'm probably in the wrong industry.

[Howard Troxler]

Amazingly enough, we are about two-thirds of the way through today's live chat here on TroxBlog. Feel free to jump in with a new topic, question or comment about current events... be careful not to step in the Socratic dialogue.

[guy]

As I Traipsed across the City this AM, I could not help notice a strong presence of AnTI Stadium signs

[Chuck]

Howard,

As long as we don't haphazardly throw a bunch of money at the problem and expect the situation to heal, I'm cool with exploring options. Of course there's the outlook of the realist/cynic - "it's just the way the city is moving and there's nothing we can do about it." Hopefully this is not the case but more often than not the cynic gets things right.

[Don Mott]

Well said Chris Jenkins. My late grandfather had an old saying about preachers being the best salesmen in the world since they were selling something that you cannot see or touch. This is not meant to be a knock on religion on my part but to emphasize what we would be forcing young people to do in an academic setting. This bill would promote religious values pure and simple, that intrudes on the separation of church and state no matter how you try to twist it.

[Chris Jenkins]

Jeez, Howard, time flies when yer havin...a live chat.

Maybe the two hour thing should be a little more frequent.

The lack of leadership in this city is the problem.......the spike in crime with barely a whispered acknowledgement, a sadly understaffed and STILL low in morale PD, dumb baseball proposals continuing on and on without any REAL justification from ANY angle at this point, and the like. These are just the symptoms of a poorly lead government and an apathetic populace on the verge of throwing up their hands in dismay WITHOUT possessing or feeling in large part the civic duty to act to correct the problem. Folks need to be inspired again......yes, we are lucky with the level of volunteerism in this city and county, but very much more is required. Citizens activated can move mountains. We just don't have enough YET with the combined chutzpah to engender REAL change.........sadly, this stadium issue has gotten more people to participate than I've seen in a long while.........and THIS is not nearly as important as addressing our public safety and many other issues in this city.

Lorraine

[guy]

So Chris ~~~ do you think this city is safe????

[Chris Jenkins]

Hey Lorraine, the fine staff at FWRI Library tells me you're an environmental bulldog. I'm glad to hear it, and to see you here.

[Chuck]

Show me a PD and a group of teachers with high morale and I'll show you a socialist country.

[justme]

Hmmm jump in on a new topic..
How about them Buc's? Opps wrong season.. How about them Ray's being in first place?
Whats up with these teachers getting arrested for messing around (spam filter wont let me type $ex with students? Can you believe this 16 yr old being arrested for the r-pe & beating of the 18 year old and now DNA has him connected to another rape. SIXTEEN years old.. What is happening in this world?

[Chris Jenkins]

"So Chris ~~~ do you think this city is safe????"

First, that's not a response. Using the preconceived notion as a basis for a statement that is factually incorrect is a fallacy on the lines of circular reasoning. My post was solely intended to illustrate that when you let the hyperbole fly to that level, you weaken your own argument.

Additionally, the question itself is without merit. Is the city safe? Compared to what?

Darfur? Yes.
Mayberry? Probably not.

Safety is relative, and vigilance is a constant requirement. Paranoia and doomsaying are not.

[justme]

grrr spam filter

[guy]

Was that Yes or No Chris?????

[Chris Jenkins]

Funny, I've never been hit by the spam filter...must be a pro-Chris Jenkins conspiracy by the SPT.

[Chuck]

To go back to the philosophy quickly -

Chris -

Aristotle is your man if you're looking for support on empiricism.

[Paul]

I think I pay attention to the news in St Pete... am I missing something or is our Mayor just not saying much about his stadium deal? I mean, he's supposed to lead our city right? Where is he? Other than the 'need some more parking spaces' and 'i recommend these 2 developers' the guy just doesn't seem to be doing his job. Am I expecting too much by asking him to please speak about the stadium deal, something, anything rather than the quiet guy he seems to have become?

[Howard Troxler]

justme -- I published it. The filter does not like the word "r#ape".

Chris,

Environmental bulldog?....I like it!!!
There's more to pop from that direction shortly, I'm in hopes. Are you staff there??

Lorraine

[guy]

Would you walk down 34th street alone at night????

simple enough question

[Howard Troxler]

Hi Paul! No, you are quite correct -- he has kept a low profile. He did rumble about the parking recently, and his staff's memo was a little critical, but overall he has not been very visible. I think he is keeping a safe distance until the thing either proves to be credible, or until it is such an obvious disaster than he can safely join the anti side.

[Chris Jenkins]

The point, Guy, is that there is no Yes or No answer to your question. Some parts of the city are safer than others. Safety varies depending on the time of day. Do I think I live in constant risk of dying? Of course! I'm alive! We all live there. The risk level varies DRAMATICALLY based on who and where we are, and what we are doing.

Politicians make statements all the time about "safe cities" and "safe streets". Are they going to prevent a three car pileup? A lone drunk driver? Air cargo falling out of the sky? Are they going to make crime non-existent?

The answer to all of those is no, and we both know it. Safety is fluid, so asking for a definitive answer is like asking what God looks like. Sorry guy, no can do.

[justme]

Our mayor is doing what he has done since he began in office..flip flops on issues. Right now he is just sitting back taking all the issues and pro's and con's in about the stadium deal ... then he will go with the majority side..

[Chuck]

The Stephanie Ragusa case is pretty whacky. Hell, I wouldn't be surprised if this latest arrest was nothing more than something to create the illusion of insanity. Either way, no judge in the area is going to give her LaFave style mercy.

[Chris Jenkins]

No, Lorraine, but I'm socially connected there. ;) If you ask any of them about me, you can track me down pretty easily.

[Don Mott]

Kinda like Charlie I'll wait til it gets to my desk Crist

[Chris Jenkins]

"Would you walk down 34th street alone at night????

simple enough question"

Good, that IS a simple question. Yes! And I do so frequently.

Now, to be fair, I'm a 6'2" 215 lb guy in reasonably athletic physical condition, and with a fair share of street smarts.

Would I recommend that for everyone? Of course not. Once again, risk is fluid. There are no definitives.

[Howard Troxler]

Re: teacher sex: That's an interesting subgenre of the genre of teachers having sex w/ students, the INSISTENT teacher... she is not the first though. There have been cases where both sides swore that they were in Love... and I seem to remember reading about one where they got together again as soon as the boy was old enough.

[guy]

Lorraine I am appointing you to take care of all of the environmental issues to do with the new stadium. You are now in charge.
Get a web site and start getting donations ~~g

[get-smart]

If you guys were in 'Pure Thought,' there would be no need of a word (thought) filter - ergo: Mr. Troxler is your god. He can reward or punish.

[Chris Jenkins]

...actually, I build and host websites, and if you're interested Lorraine, can get you setup free of charge.

[Don Mott]

Hey Chuck, I don't think they need to create an illusion. How many people pose for mug shots like it's a family portrait?

[morganan]

Hey Howard,
On a different bent altogether....
how about these wacky teachers molesting their students? I teach adult education and have several teenage males in my classroom. I can not imagine having a relationship with any of them. They are way too immature and easily manipulated. For that matter, I wouldn't cross the line and have a relationship with the older males in my class either...

[Jon McPhee]

As to using Trop "redevelopment" money to pay for the Stadium: Can anyone explsin in simple layman's terms how this part of the Big Deal is supposed to work? How does a City-County asset get pushed over onto the asset side of the Rays Boys ledger?

[tiny]

Howard,

When will journalists be allowed to run for office?

[guy]

when I was 14 my teacher could have taught me a little better LOL

[Chris Jenkins]

1:00PM, and that's the Bell!

Chris, talk to the librarian, she knows me. I have a pdf file of the response by the Rays to the Agency on Bay Management that would SHOCK you with it's arrogance and LACK of knowledge on the part of Matt Silverman. I haven't been able to nudge anyone at the Times yet to URL post both letters......the original from ABM simply BLASTING the lack of answers FROM HDR, the Rays hired mitigating consultants, and the response from the Rays is SHEER HUBRIS without a sense of facts, knowledge, nor fromWHOM these warnings were sent. Maybe you can nudge Howard to post them, They are quite revealing. Otherwise, Howrad you have my permission to give Chris my email so he can get in on my e-blasts......yep, the REAL one.....

Lorraine

[Don Mott]

Jon I think that is called a con job

[Chris Jenkins]

Lorraine, to which one? Judith?

[guy]

Chris don't tell me you walk down 34th st at night it's against the law. LOl

[Howard Troxler]

(1) I resist the deity comparison. Having a "delete" button makes one a destroyer at best.

(2) Re: teachers: Do you think it's pretty much always been a problem, and we're only hearing about it more? Or do you think that some sort of order has broken down and it's getting worse? And, why is Sting's voice echoing in my brain?

[Chuck]

BOOOOOOO Stadium Talk.

[guy]

Howard don't let the power of the button go to your head

[Chris Jenkins]

Ah Guy, you are one funny Guy.

[Paul]

Sorry Chuck, it was more of my take on our Mayor... not so much the stadium.

[Howard Troxler]

Jon, on the Trop issue:

I am rapidly coming to the conclusion that the Trop redevelopment simply does NOT work in terms of paying for the ball park.

Already, we see that "everybody knows" the county has to be asked simply to keep chipping in its tourism tax.

Next, I think we will see that St. Petersburg will be asked to "decouple" its existing annual payment from the Trop project -- that the city will be asked simply just to keep making the same payment it's making now.

In other words, the entire thing will have been a bait and switch, and we will have arrived at the point of, "By the way, taxpayers, just buy us a new stadium, all right?"

Chris........yes, Judith.

Lorraine

[Chris Jenkins]

"In other words, the entire thing will have been a bait and switch, and we will have arrived at the point of, "By the way, taxpayers, just buy us a new stadium, all right?""

And this, above all else, is why I have been against this from day one.

[Chris Jenkins]

:) Thanks, Lorraine, will do.

[guy]

Another fun Tuesday

Sorry to Chris and Chuck, I am not as smart as you guy's

[Howard Troxler]

Whoops, Chris rang the bell and I missed it. It is a little after 1 p.m. ... last comments, y'all? (Not that YOU have to quit talking; you are welcome to stay -- in a little bit I do have to go home and let the puppy out, which is my principal role in life these days.)

[Don Mott]

Hey with all the bad news at least we'll have toilet paper in public restrooms. If we can figure out who to call to enforce it.

Puppies!!!!!!!!!!!!

Now that's ALWAYS the basis of a feel good conversation.........Howard, get me connected with Chris, would 'ya?? Or is that not allowed.....?? that's if HE approves, of course......

Lorraine

[guy]

Ask Lorraine if thats an environmental issue Don !!!
If so, don't get mad Lorraine but ~~~~~

[justme]

Have a great day ya'll!
Lorraine I would be interested.

[Howard Troxler]

Don, I think the law allows "objective" alternatives to toilet paper as well. But maybe I am confusing the legislation with something else.

THANK YOU to everyone who took part in today's chat, or who stopped by to see what folks were saying. Happy Tuesday to all. Go Rays. I hope to see you at a future chat!

[guy]

Lorraine perhaps something real positive can develope for you, hope so

[Chris Jenkins]

Hey Lorraine, I emailed J. :)

[guy]

I hope the Ray's will stay on a roll the next six games are the most important of their season.

[Don Mott]

Hey Howard did you mean Go Rya as in win or get out of town? Just kidding!

[Chris Jenkins]

Guy, I don't really think intelligence is at play here. You obviously care about these issues, and have spent time in thought about them. Formal logic and dialectics simply helps you phrase your argument in a way that clearly states your intention, and with as few easily exploitable logic flaws as possible. You do just fine getting your point across.

[Don Mott]

Hey Howard did you mean Go Rays as in win or get out of town? Just kidding!

Toilet paper is not on my civic agenda at this point in time......just on my daily one.

Hey, in Japan you BRING YOUR OWN hanky for hand drying....really. Been there twice. You carry a hanky to control cost and waste. There is toilet paper, but it's barely out of the pulp mill LOW LOW grade and scratchy!

Lorraine

[guy]

Glad you have a good sense of humor Lorraine XX

[Don Mott]

Install bidets and quit wasting trees.

[Chris Jenkins]

P.S. to Chuck. Yep, Aristotle, and Gallileo...now there are some scientifically minded gents...

[guy]

Howard ~~ "Don't PHaz me Bro"

[Chuck]

Great idea Don. Everyone install a bidet! Perhaps we could start a low budget bidet company to exploit the poor once TP is outlawed.

I just emailed J. as well, Chris.....
Guy, I am MARRIED, and most happily. I need to access as much brain power as I can for issues that I choose to advocate for. Maybe Chris can help with some strategizing, particularly with an FWRI link through family or friends.

Have some good links of my own, of course.

Lorraine

'Gotta get back to work.........thanks Howard, "hi" to Louie!!
By y'all..............

Lorraine

[guy]

Lorraine my words were meant to see you improve your goals of environmental protection only.
I know you from your past accomplishments and strong efforts to improve our city.
I admire you for your efforts believe me.

[guy]

Thats good everyone Back to work and keep it up~~g

Thanks Guy.......wish I knew why 'ya know me (I remember the bike comment a while back....from my mountain bike racing days??). But thanks for your support regardless!!!

Lorraine

[Allan]

Am I signed in?

[Allan]

April 30, 2008:

OK. Excuse me, Howard, and other folks, for that "Am I signed in?" query. I had to make sure if I typed something in, it would "work."

Now, then.

1. On Chris's "Dialectics" group. Chris: would they allow an old Marxist into the group? I'd be interested in finding out more.

2. On the "Thank You, Stephen Hawking" comment. Actually, it should have been "Thank you, Albert Einstein," because most of the predictivity for stuff like black holes originated in Einstein's achievements. I suspect even Hawking -- certainly a great physicist -- would own up to that. Abraham Pais' biography of Einstein, "Subtle is the Lord: The Science and the Life of Albert Einstein," makes it clear that Einstein pretty much predicted most of what today we know as fact in astronomy, in cosmology, in physics. The guy was not called a genius for nothing. But more than that, he was perhaps the last of the great Renaissance people in science, a truly versatile physicist who achieved an enormous amount in just about all areas of physics. By the way, that Pais biography has a lot of math in there I do not understand at all; but it's interspersed with good plain English descriptions, and it got the plaudits of "Scientific American" for being the best scientific biography of Einstein. And again, I'm not at all putting down Hawking, one of the truly great contemporary physicists who, however, like so many great contemporary physicists, has essentially extended Einstein's original insights much as, for instance, the great 20th Century Marxist, Leon Trotsky, in Trotsky's theory of permanent revolution, extended Marx's 19th Century revolution in permanence. (Sorry, but as an old Marxist, I couldn't resist.)

3. Howard, I like you. I, too, am both opposed to gun control, and also to the religious fundamentalist assault on evolution here in Florida.

4. On police and guns and prisons and the notion that the only people who authentically oppose too high a police presence in some areas are out to commit criminal activity. I disagree with that. The police are the core of the institution of the state. The institution of the state comes down to armed men (and women) and prisons. It may be true that, at least, right now, some kinds of drugs are illegal; but the problem is, precisely, their illegality. That provides a blank check to build up the power of the armed police, i.e., the state. When that's done, however, that also means that entirely peaceably "vigiling" anti-war peace sign holders from groups like the St. Pete for Peace at Bay Walk can be "aggressively targeted" for harassment by the cops, and that motorists doing nothing but honking their horns in solidarity with said peaceable peace sign holders can be ticketed. The issue is, how powerful do you want this thing called, the state (armed men and prisons) to be, Howard and friends? As someone who dislikes every kind of totalitarianism (Stalinism, Nazism/fascism, religious fundamentalism of whatever kind including both Christian religious fundamentalism in power and Osama bin Laden's Muslim religious fundamentalism in power, Karl Rove's and Cheney-Bush's trashing of the Bill of Rights, as well as Bill Clinton's/Al Gore's armed invasion of that compound in Waco, Texas in 1993 and their 1996 Effective Death Penalty and Anti-Terrorism Act, another trashing of the Bill of Rights), I don't much care for the notion of a monopoly of armed force (of guns) in the hands of special bodies of armed men and women (cops). This means, I oppose both gun control and the death penalty, but I also oppose the so-called "war on drugs."

5. Let me put it this way. My little apartment was burglarized on March 6, 2006. The guy who I later realized did the burglary was himself a friend of the guy who lived next door to me and proceeded to criminally harass me on the street for the 5 months ensuing after the burglary. Now: I availed myself of Florida's concealed firearms licensing law after the burglary and due to the onset of the 5-months-criminal-harassment campaign against me by this friend of the burglar, who is nuts and therefore unpredictable. I never, happily, had the necessity of pulling my weapon, because, I am levelheaded and not crazy. Still, the harassment went on, and I didn't know what this harasser was capable of, so it was nice that I was always prepared.

6. Nevertheless, the harasser clearly had mental problems. If this country had free quality health care for all (Yeah, I'm also an old socialist), he could get help for his problem. If this country had a shorter work week at no loss in pay, and maybe a 75 dollar per hour minimum wage, he could get not only viable employment at decent wages, but a decent home in which to live, rather than living for 5 months in the garage of his uncle, the landlord owning the home next door to me, because a shorter work week at not only no loss in pay, but a huge raise in the minimum wage, would provide employment to millions who hitherto had none. If this country's housing was not-for-profit, rents and mortgages would be slashed to the bone, and, as said, this guy would have been able to find decent lodging rather than being compelled by material circumstances to live next door to me in a garage in the back of the house next door to me, harassing me because his friend burglarized my home. And if, instead of spending all the money this country spends on cops and militarism, this country spent it on mental rehabilitation, housing, infrastructure, massive public works programs, health care, I suspect this guy (the harasser) could have developed into a useful human being. And if this country didn't spend its substance on a stupid, fruitless, useless "war on drugs," his friend might not have originally felt compelled to burglarize my home on March 6, 2006.

7. Additionally, the monopoly of armed force in the hands of the police ain't just about getting rid of gun control, but it's about getting rid of the death penalty. Howard, you know darned well the state (the government) always screws up in all kinds of way, because you write about it lots in your column. Do you honestly think that the something like over 200 DNA exonerations of death row inmates somehow confirms the ability of the government to kill only the guilty in all instances? Get real! You yourself ought to be, and certainly are, skeptical enough about the alleged "infallibility" of governmental officials to know that if they cannot get so much right about which you write very eloquently, how in the h--- can they get right innocence, guilt, beyond a reasonable doubt? And you're going to give THEM the RIGHT to KILL SOMEONE? Give me a break. That's the key reason I oppose the death penalty anywhere. No government anywhere, including alleged Marxist governments (which are not Marxist, because the phrase, "Marxist government," is an oxymoron, a contradiction in terms, but that's for a whole other discussion), has the "right" to kill anybody. That's my view of the situation (And for whatever it is here worth, I do notice that Raul Castro is considering getting rid of the death penalty in Cuba, not a Marxist state [Again, the phrase, "Marxist state," is an oxymoron, a contradiction in terms.], but still, I think that's nice he's considering that).

Best,
"Old Anti-Stalinist Commie" Allan

[Steve]

Take heed everyone. I am writing for myself in this blog.

I have recently had the privilage to go out and speak at numerous neighborhood and civic associations to promote my beliefs on this new baseball stadium issue swirling about this city.

And while the Rays promote baseball and the love of money...............

And while City Council sits in apparent grid lock..................

And while the Mayor is hiding.......

And while the citizens are being mislead............................

And while the St. Pete Times Editorial Board serves cool aid to us all.......

The southside of our city is being shot up nightly....................

Crime is being perpetrated all over our city..........................

The police force is working without a contract and is shrinking in size...

While we do what?

Argue about developing a beautiful waterfront park which is already developed and is already beautiful.....

To heck with the Rays and this recently contrived baseball issue......

People are suffering on the southside for God's sake. I had to hear it for myself, over and over again. And believe me until you have been where I have been you too may not believe it. But believe me it is true and it is happening right now while I write this and right now while you are reading it.

Folks on the southside are being shot and shot at. Nightly! Everynight! Without end and without relief!

And what are we doing! Talking about Kalt, and rich New Yorkers and baseball!

Give me a break.

When I go to give my speech to these neighborhood and civic groups, most are started with the police reports. So I sit there and listen waiting for my turn. What I have gotten is unbelievable. Simply unbelievable.

Most of the folks at these meetings are black, female, older and not wealthy. They come to these meetings to talk, to plead with their community police officer about their plight. And as far as I could tell, it is like a broken record. Every month the folks come, they seek answers, they get crime statistics for their efforts and darn few solutions. I mean, drug houses that would be gone in an instant if they were in other neighborhoods, bullets flying over their roofs, people being shot. One woman complained that almost every night the hooligans climb up on her roof and stomp around. She hides in her own house, checking for locked doors and windows, trying to stay safe. She reports it to the dwindling police department. It goes on.

And so I ask. Can we really be talking about baseball when things like this are going on.

Mr. Mayor, you should be ashamed of yourself. If I were Mayor, talk of spending billions on baseball would not have gotten past the first meeting with the Rays. Not past the first meeting.

City Council wake up. Serve the people in the southside if you do nothing else. Forget baseball. And if there is $10.00 in the till, spend it on our first responders, and send them south. Give the southside the relief they are asking, needing and in truth often begging for.

I can't stand it much longer. I have been fighting this worthless baseball proposal while real issues surround us and this baseball nonesense continues.

St. Pete, if this baseball issue continues to crawl along, at the expense of real city issues, then look no further than our Mayor and City Council for it is they who could put a stop to all of this. Heck the Mayor could stop it today, tomorrow if he chose to. I think he chooses to let it go on.

I think he has chosen poorly.

What do you all think?

Steve Lange

Email City Council NOW!

We have listened, we have stressed, we have been shocked and we have been disenfranchised by this entire process from start to finish in regards to the proposal to redevelop the Trop to build a new waterfront stadium for the wealthy owners of the Tampa Bay Rays. The time for this discussion was two years ago when the city was THINKING about this development behind our backs. But it's out in the open, and it surely isn't pretty. From the standpoint of money, quality of life, environmental impact, Trop contamination issues, PARKING and more.........we must URGE this St. Petersburg City Council to say NO to continuing discussions with RFP contestants, NO to a charter amendment referendum for November 2008, NO to any more of this public angst. Another teen DIED yesterday in a shooting in St. Pete, crime seems to be rampant, our own Howard Troxler was burglarized in his home this past Friday evening, St. Pete Fire Department is at an impasses in union negotiations, St. Pete PD is about there as well................homeless issues, HUGE cuts for Pinellas County Schools, taxes, insurance, cuts for city parks and codes enforcement.............whew, to name but a few. City Council, PLEASE vote NO to any further continuance of these negotiations at your meeting this coming Thursday. Have pity on your city, CARE for your city.......it's your duty as our public servants given the role that you play in being the checks and balance mechanism to this strong mayor system of government.

For those who wish to email council, here is the email address:

council@stpete.org

Lorraine

[Chuck]

Wow Steve, I'm speechless. I don't know where to begin.

If this type of dialogue becomes general sentiment in the area then we're already too deep. If this kind of talk continues the city is hopeless.

[Chuck]

What so we're just going to let this go now? No one else feels like commenting on what Steve wrote?

I know you guys aren't afraid of this issue so I'll just assume you're enjoying a waterfront lunch.

[Kathleen]

I was with Steve when we heard the police reports for Palmetto Park, Cromwell Heights, Campbell Park. Steve was also at Childs Park. The crime is real. The lack of effective law enforcement for gun shots and drug dealing is real. Check out the burglar bars, broken glass, junk, trash and debris. Like it or not, all St. Pete neighborhoods are not safe, not by a long shot. There are some dedicated neighborhood association members who work tirelessly to improve their neighborhoods, but the are NOT getting the help they deserve to really get rid of the problems. And, they know who is responsible. Our neighbors on the south side have seen and heard the same old tired stories day after day, week after week, year after year. Unfortunately, with the anticipated cuts in the Police Department-over $800,000 being considered, real crime control efforts will be sacrificed. Since there is no leadership, City Council should pull the plug on the Rays scheme to increase their franchise value and force the mayor to get back to work-to start looking out for the entire City and not the privileged few.

[Allan]

May 4, 2008: The problem is this: the South, and this includes Florida, is not organized into labor unions, and the unions into which most labor is organized have bureaucrats who have buried their faces so far up the hind quarters of the two major capitalist political parties, Demopublicans and Republicrats, that that hamstrings them from fighting the kind of all-sided class struggle that could stop the rich possessing classes and propertied classes from screwing communities like St. Petersburg. The big possessing and propertied classes and their political representatives like the St. Pete City Council, Baker, and the rest of those flacks and shills for the big possessing and propertied capitalist employing classes, get away with doing whatever they want because the South generally and Florida particularly is low-wage, labor-hating, non-union and anti-union, and the union bureaucrats are not fighters who fight for the class interests of all labor in Florida, but keep the unions as mere bargaining agents and traders who trade labor back and forth with bosses as a commodity.

But labor is the majority, not the minority. It's the majority in the community. Logically, if all labor went on strike, they could force the City Council and the propertied and possessing ruling class the City Council serve to stick it.

But first, all labor has to organize, and organize into really fighting, class struggle-based kinds of labor organizations and unions that really fight for labor, and don't keep labor as wage slaves doing nothing but producing profits for the possessing and propertied employing boss bourgeois class.