Time for some details on stadium

I am not overly impressed with this vague harrumphing by the St. Petersburg City Council over not liking the deal for a proposal baseball stadium. We already know that it does not matter what the council says, only what it does, and there is plenty of time still to roll over for the Tampa Bay Rays.

More interesting to me are the precise terms of the business deal, which are yet to emerge. I am getting the feeling that the proposal will NOT "pay for itself" from the redevelopment of Tropicana Field, as was originally promised. In fact, I am betting that the proposed deal ends up keeping taxpayers on the hook for both the county tourism tax, and the city sales taxes, now being paid on the Trop. The argument will be, "Well, you were already paying that much anyway, so it's not a 'new' tax." But it was GOING TO BE PAID OFF eventually on the Trop... so it sure as heck IS a 'new' tax if we have to keep paying it.

Bottom line is that if the Tropicana redevelopment agreement does not guarantee the city's share of the cost of a new stadium, then it is a bad deal, and the council should reject it -- and now, I am all ears for hearing from folks who disagree. What say? At any rate, this is Topic A for a Thursday column.

Comments

[Chris]

I would not want to sell my house in this market, much less 86 acres of brownfield that are of value only once the global economic malaise begins to lift.

The Trop site, with all the costs of demolition, soil remediation and site prep looming, is currently not much of an asset or liability for the City.

To substantially profit from the site, a developer would need to have purchasers for the retail and residential space they create. We know what condition the local housing market is in, but the recession is only just now beginning to creep into the retail sector. Levitz, Linens n Things, Sharper Image have filed bankruptcy in the last few weeks, Foot Locker, Ann Taylor and Zales are aggressively contracting stores.

As the retail sector softens, the owners of existing retail malls and plazas(REIT's and folks like Sembler and Hines) will lower rents to meet their obligations.

It's not too difficult to foresee a developer folding, and the Trop site becoming a dustbowl as a new stadium rises 16 blocks east.

[bob]

I watch the Rays on tv and go to the games more often than I ever thought I would. I think the only question is what is most likely to keep the team in town. In the past, it has been the lease on the dome, but at some point, the buyout on that lease is going to be less than the cost to the league of carrying a mediocre team. If the new stadium will generate more revenue (and payroll and wins) and ensure the Rays will stick around, I'm perfectly willing to keep paying the taxes, sit in the sun without air conditioning, and walk fifteen minutes to the parking lots. The council should insist on the best deal possible, but the main goal should be to lock down commitments to keep the team in town and make it more competitive.

Take another hit Bob.

[Justin Elza]

I respect Bob's points, but unfortunately everyone cares about baseball as much as he does. If there was someway to isolate the baseball fans and others who want this stadium built and ONLY TAX THEM, then I'd be more receptive (although the environmental damage caused by dredging and filling the Bay is in and of itself unacceptable).

I keep hearing the argument that there will be no new taxes because the money to pay for the stadium will come from the redevelopment of the Trop site. The problem with that logic is that assumes that the best way to spend the money from redeveloping that area is on baseball. If there is potentially hundreds of millions of dollars to be generated, couldn't that money be better spent on things the city really needs, like police, fireman, schools, etc, etc. This is particularly poignant given the current economic situation the city and all its residents find themselves in.

My ideal scenario would involve the Rays building their own stadium adjacent to the Trop and then tearing down the Trop and redeveloping that area plus some of the parking lot to put money back into the city.

[concernedcitizen]

I agree with Chris and understand Bob's desire. But in the interest of fairness Bob why should all of us have to pay for YOUR pleasure. Virtually every study shows that stadiums do not benefit communities economically so this is truly simply for the pleasure of baseball FANS!
Chris is exactly right and so is Bob. The Rays are doing this, secure in the knowledge that it will fail in November giving them and excuse to say "we tried to work with the city but were rejected". The sad truth is that a city of 250,000 just cannot compete on the open market against the tourist dollars in Orlando or Las Vegas.
As for your coverage Howard keep up the good fight about GUARANTEES. Unlike Bob I do not wish to enrich the New Yorkers by a quarter of a billion dollars even though I enjoy baseball like Bob. There will be no guarantees because why settle for a quarter of a billion dollars profit when they can get 3/4 of a billion deal in Vegas or Orlando. And Howard while you're asking for guarantees could you also expose the absurdity of the 450 million figure which doesn't include infrastructure or debt costs. For an idea of how the infrastructure costs can get out of hand in a New York Minute please follow this hyperlink to the Village Voice Article which exposes two projects that were shepherded by the very same man behind this deal.
http://www.villagevoice.com/news/0813,as-new-yankee-and-met-stadiums-go-up-so-do-costs-and-disruption,389221,1.html

[Justin Elza]

Correction: Everyone does NOT care about baseball as much as he does.

Finally........a whimper of questioning from council.....since council is mainly questioning the financial issue (there's lots more as we know), let's keep REMINDING city council that no matter WHAT monies the Rays may come up with for the original quarter billion, you can be sure that they WON'T have money for the infrastructure which the city is responsible for, I bet they WON"T have money for the Tropicana and Al Lang demolition which the city is responsible for in all three bid proposals, and I bet none of the developers will offer to take over the remediation of the Tropicana site ...AND, since Mr. Connors of the city said in Mr. Sharockman's article of Sunday that remediation dollars and liability would have a cap, WHAT IS THAT CAP NUMBER, MR. CONNORS???....Council needs to know that post haste....

[Justin Elza]

Just as an FYI, if you would like to contact Council and City Hall directly to let them know that you demand ALL questions be answered before they even consider a referendum, you can do so in a quick and easy way by visiting http://www.stpetepoww.com and filling out the "Speak Up!" form on the right side of the page.

[Reality]

The “Build it and they will come” development perception over the past several years has run its course, to the detriment of our local market. Moreover, it seems to have transformed into an “Over build it, over-price it, over tax it, and they will leave” reality.

From my perspective… this has become a disturbing trend relating to our leadership’s inability to grasp the concept of “priority based agendas” guided by a philosophy of maintaining a balanced and revenue-relative budget.

While our economy here in Florida is tanking, but quick… our leadership in Tallahassee is focused on baggy pants and the like, and pandering for career-protection options. While we taxpayers are struggling more and more to keep our heads above water, the response to a call for fiscal responsibility results in threats of service cuts and layoffs – rather than talk of cuts in waste, pork projects, or irresponsible spending habits. We get threats instead of a commitment to responsible leadership with a focus on priorities.

Good, hard-working taxpayers are losing their homes at an alarming rate, and our priority should NOT be, to make sure the Rays get a new one… it truly IS that simple.

[Justin Elza]

Howard, you say, "Bottom line is that if the Tropicana redevelopment agreement does not guarantee the city's share of the cost of a new stadium, then it is a bad deal, and the council should reject it."

I agree and I would like to add that if the referendum submitted to Council is not worded in a specific way (we want this thing and this thing only for this cost and this cost only) they should reject that as well.

Any referendum that is vague or just mentions extending the lease on Al Lang is NO GOOD.

The referendum wording needs to be based, among other things, on the redevelopment agreement and give the voters absolute control to say what precisely they do or do not want.

[Chris]

What are we going to do with Al Lang stadium, particularly if it doesn't become the site of a new $450M Stadium?

I'd like to see the USF Bulls baseball team play at Al Lang. USF can save $8 million by not having to build a new stadium themselves, and St Pete's tradition can continue.

[Rich]

The Rays will never compete financially in this division. They may strike lightning in a bottle and have a group of young overachievers similar to the Marlins but year in and year out it's impossible.

They should impose a use tax on stadium tickets. That way the citizens that use it pay for it. It's essentially the same thing as the tenants paying for it but that's how it should be. They could float the bonds for the wall streeters but they would have to guarantee minimum number of tickets sold. $15 per ticket for first 1M tickets sold plus interest every year for 30 years.

Why don’t we just borrow the money from China?

China; America’s New Economy!

…aahhsoles!

[Larry]

Howard, I attended a Rays game on Sunday at the Trop and it was a very pleasant experience. I will give the current Rays organization one thing, they have substantially and greatly improved the interior and exterior of the Trop. It is a very nice stadium. From what I heard from the fans sitting around me and from a few vendors, the sentiment is that they do not want to sit outside in 90+ degree heat in August, September, and October even though the Rays say they can bring the temperature down ten degrees. Horse hockey!! I think it is really foolish to throw away the beautiful indoor stadium that they now have, just to bring the contest to the waterfront. As I saw on a bumper sticker the other day, "half a billion dollars to move a stadium 16 blocks." It sounds like at least one councilman has come to his senses.

[get-smart]

The Rays did put a little heat on the downtown anti-stadium residents at the public hearing. They are trying to paint the resistance as just a few hundred downtown blue-haired elite condo retirees that don't want "progress," at least what the Rays call progress. The fact is the Rays have a stadium to play ball in and they still owe $150 million on it. I hope the City Council realizes if the downtown condo dwellers and NE home owners move out of town, St Pete is done for. There is no one to replace them. Most retirees today are looking at other states to spend their retirement years. There are many places out there with all the amenities and low taxes. The only sports stadium these retirees are looking for is called the "19th Hole." They don't need or want the noise or traffic.

[Justin Elza]

Rich, I like your idea about imposing a ticket tax to pay for any new stadium.

However, when you talk about the Rays ability to compete financially in their division I have to ask, "How is that MY problem?"

How successful the Rays are or are not, either in terms of wins or profit, is not really something that matters to me one way or another. I like baseball and all, but there are real problems facing our city that are far more important than how well the baseball team does.

[guy]

I say the Trop is great.
The stupid idea of playing here in the summer heat, outside,day or night,is stupid and you can tell that whoever
thought of it,never made the team.
The players will need not
only steroids but perhaps a de-fribulator or two.

[Rich]

Justin,

My point was that it is useless for the owners to say they need a new stadium in order to compete in that division. It will never happen no matter where they play.

I guess they could tax residents of St Pete to subsidize players salaries. Make everybody cut a check to a player or the owner every year. That's essentially what they are asking residents to do.

Personally I would like St Pete (and all other cities) to stand up to these owners, like L.A. has with the NFL, and say hey you want to do business here then you pay for it.

[JJ]

It's all about quality of life issues... and I am sick of the curb-to-curb traffic. Just how many more vehicles and people can we pack like sardines along the waterfront of St. Pete? And why would we WANT to? What do I, as a average taxpayer and citizen of Pinellas, gain from this plan? I am not a downtown business person. I do not attend baseball games. My taxes will not be reduced and we stand a good chance of getting stuck with higher taxes to cover the shortcomings of this proposal. I would expect our government officials to carefully weigh each aspect of this proposal - any less would be ignoring their duty and responsibilities to the citizens that they represent.

[Rich]

JJ,

I like you thoughts. The only flaw in your thinking is that government officials represent their citizens that elect them. They don't. At all government levels,they represent the lobbyists and business interests that fund their campaigns.

[Justin Elza]

Rich, point well taken.

BANG-O-RANG, 12:25!

[Howard Troxler]

Howard here -- thanks for the comments to date. Just for the record, I am a big Rays fan and have had part of a season ticket for most of the 10 years they've been here... we even upped our share this year!

My overwhelming concern is about the business deal. Some of my friends, such as some folks in POWW, are opposed to the stadium no matter what -- either they don't like the waterfront use, or the downtown use, or the parking or environmental issues and so forth.

Me, I want to know that the Tropicana Field redevelopment will do what it is supposed to do -- pay for the public share of the stadium. And the city has to be absolutely protected in that. On top of that, you know there are going to be some attempted add-ons that have to be guarded against. Already, a couple of the developers want US to pay for tearing down the Trop, etc., etc. -- and as Lorraine M. points out (hi, Lorraine), we still need to know what the city's limit on liability for the enviro-stuff-under-the-asphalt is going to be.

If the deal fails, then the next time around -- and realistically, there IS going to be a next time, because the Trop sooner or later becomes more expensive to keep than to tear down -- maybe we can avoid a secrecy agreement that keeps the public in the dark, and start building some kind of consensus from the first?

Why should revenue the city receives from redeveloping the Trop site pay for a new stadium? That's where I'm hung up on your logic, Howard.

Why don't they pay for it themselves?

I'll make an analogy, since you like baseball:

I LOVE going to the movies. I probably spend hundreds each year on tickets, popcorn, drinks, etc.

But I don't expect public land be sold to pay for a new and improved movie theater, since theaters are privately owned businesses (or are leased by privately owned businesses).

Perhaps if the team were publicly owned like the Packers or something in would be different. But as it stands we're talking about selling off (losing ownership of) public land so that we can build the Rays a new stadium.

It just doesn't make sense.

I'm a business owner. My business generates money for the local economy. Why doesn't the city sell public land to build me a new office?

The Rays should pay for their own stadium on a piece of land appropriate for a baseball stadium. That's pretty much the bottom line as far as I'm concerned.

[get-smart]

Good Thinking Howard. By keeping the new stadium a secret to begin with, the mayor and city deprived us of an important issue that needed to be aired during our past election of the city council. I guess the mayor and friends didn't want to take a chance that any of the city council candidates declare themselves opposed to the stadium and God Forbid win.

Let this fail so we can go through an election cycle. We need to elect a mayor who will stand up to the criminal elements on the streets of our city and not look for the back room payoffs and deals from these NY carpetbaggers.

[H.L.Menchen]

Hey you huckleberries down there in little ole St. Pete, listen to us six rich boys from New York! All we're asking is for you to pay a half billion for our new stadium, infrastructure,traffic control and the fifty million dollar Al Lang property.
In return, we will give you a sucking sound of the life leaving all the businesses for miles around the Trop redevelopment site and since we are asking for full development rights at the Al Lang site, new condos on the water. Your Council has been so generous to our carpetbaagger predecessors we think you can extend us similar courtesies.

[Lin]

I'm with Howard. There are some folks just predisposed to "No", and they need to be marginalized. The facts are that the Al Lang site, which has been used for baseball for generations, is an excellent location that will produce financial benefits for a downtown that drops off in the summer and assure that the Rays stay here and have a good chance of being successful (we all agree that this is important, right?).

Still, the critical thing is to be sure that the taxpayers aren't played for suckers, and here's the deal: let the Rays take on this project to complete - all aspects - and the City/County will agree to direct all proceeds from the sale and redevelopment of the Tropicana site toward the project, but that's it: the Rays are on the hook for all additional costs, overruns, etc.

In other words, the Rays have to hold the City/County harmless from any costs beyond the scope of the sale proceeds and tax revenues.

Win-win-win

[#42]

1:19,

Excellent points, and a pretty decent analogy I might add.

Bottom line, the Trop is fine.

Hi Howard,

The unanswerables mount as time goes on...this year just isn't the year to give this a reasonable shake, from the process point of view, the horrible financial state that government is in at all levels, the promises broken under the LDR visioning process, and the sheer bankruptcy of the due diligence that should have been expected from our elected representatives It's not all the fault of council by any means, STAFF is the problem here. But unfortunately, what can one do other than put this on the council's plate? They are our ONLY check and balance within the system, which is sad for the many new members. I totally understand why this decision is currently beyond them.........the skills to work within government must be learned no matter how intelligent one might be. It's just that simple...........and for me, waterfront building for ANY project is simply foolhardy policy,and the federal government supports that concept via the Clean Water Act.

Lorraine

Lin,

First paragraph… ummm. NO. A new taxpayer funded stadium will in no way “assure that the Rays stay here and have a good chance of being successful”.

Respectfully; that’s just marketing rant.

Get back to work before I call Stu!

The people who need to be marginalized are those predisposed to "Yes" despite overwhelming evidence showing this to be a bad idea.

And NO, the Rays business being successful is not important to me--certainly not enough so that I want to see public land sold off and waterfront filled in to help make it happen.

Let them go somewhere else. Let St. Pete continue to be the great little city it is.

[Bland]

Howard,

Given that the City Council just blinked......Do you think now they will vote not to have a referendum in November?

If a stadium is to be built in Pinellas County, I would say it will be at Toy Town or Derby Lane properties. Not on the waterfront.

I am looking for all the supporters’ comments on this blog on why my City should be at risk for $450 Million if this turns into a financial failure.

[EARTH MUFFIN]

I am not opposed to the Rays or to baseball. I am the jock in my family and love sports. BUT
I DO NOT WANT TO FINANCE A NEW WATERFRONT STADIUM ON OUR LAND WITH OUR DOLLARS.
If the Rays want to pay 100% for their new stadium, just like you would expect any other commercial enterprise to do like hotels or movies, that is just fine with me.
But they in addition need to find another SITE. If they build on our waterfront, they not only would be getting our public dollars, they would be getting our priceless public waterfront land. Some value that piece of property if sold on the open market to be worth at least $50 million.
And what if they get the lease to build on the land by the referendum passing? And what if they then decide to move to Orlando or Las Vegas, with the lease on the land? What else would they build that the city would get no piece of???? MORE CONDOS???
I say that a small city like ST PETE cannot afford the Rays at this price tag.
The city is acting like they are DUMB STRUCK. They need to be telling the Rays that they will not accept a financial package if it does not include:
no cost to city for remediation
no cost to city for infrastructure
no cost to the city for demolition of two perfectly good stadiums
no cost to the taxpayers

What directions is city council giving their staff or saying to the Rays that they want in a financial package? That the city will pay how much to get this done?
It is time we saw NUMBERS

For Michael Kalt to be so arrogant and say that he thought the deadline for the financial package was June 5 not April 15, does he expect that he will deliver a package the night before the council votes and not let staff or the citizens comment before a vote?
OUTRAGEOUS
the city MUST give the Rays a firm deadline that the package is offered and if the Rays dont meet that deadline, then this is a NO GO
The Rays have been working on this for years, what is the problem with their fast schedule now? Council has said many times that we are working with the Rays schedule. Lets get on with it
and call this one OFF

[Orville & Wilber]

Hi, Howard:
How about these plans:
1) Leave AL Lang field (even though the Rays arbitrarily ended a 94-year tradition there), and use it for multi-purposes: high school & college baseball, free Florida orchestra concerts, American Stage in the Park, Revived Negro League baseball (call Thomas English, who eloquently spoke at the 4/10 meeting), etc.

Turn the existing parking lot into a park (with the Grand Prix curve intact), and put parking off the water, where the practice field now sits (possibly low-rise, structured parking). The new park could be the permanent home for the Saturday Morning Market and the Art Market, plus other human-friendly uses.

2) Do with the Trop site what they are doing with Toytown: put out an RFP where only design and stability of the developer will count. Here's what you want: the developer will first build structured parking for 7,000 cars to the West of the Dome, he will do all necessary environmental remediation East of Booker Creek, he will then develop that area (the City will pick the best design), including infrastructure. The City will get future tax revenues, without shelling out a dime.

The City could charge the Developer some nominal amount per year, until the tax revenues meet or exceed that amount, as an incentive to expidite the redevelopment. To sweeten the pot, they could, based on performance, give the developer an option on the rest of the site, when/if the Rays vacate.

The City spends nothing! Worst case scenario, everything stays the same. Best case, you get a new "neighborhood" and new tax revenues.

[Shandor]

The Council should be applauded for finally asking the right questions. We are all tired of hearing how great it is GOING TO BE. Show us the money.

Then deal with the environmental issues. And, while they're at it, explain why a private company that just trashed 94 years of Spring training tradition deserves the most prime 15 acres the City owns to build a 20-30-story structure that is completely out of scale with our park system and its neighbors, the Mahaffey and the new Dali Museum.

Build it and they will come. One by Water. Two by Land. Three by Air. Peter Pan is the Captain of our Ship. And I say to all you Captain Hooks out there, MOVE TO CLEARWATER! You deserve a break.

Hi, Howard:

How about these plans:

Leave Tropicana just as it is, honor your lease agreement… or get the hell out of our town.

Easy… understandable… represents no changes to the current situation… and we save money.

[Don Mott]

I wonder why the redevelopment and future taxes from the Dome property should be included at all. The Rays do not own the property the county (technically) does. Why should the public share in the expense of a new stadium especially since the public is donating a supposed $50 million piece of property. Just because other communities do it? Can we all get free tickets to the games in the new stadium to make up for all of our lost tax revenue? Oh, we need free beer and hot dogs too. Unless the Yankees or Red Sox are in town the Rays can't even draw 20,000 fans. Is this due to the stadium and do you think a new outdoor stadium will make attendance swell, I think not. With the heat and humidity it will probably drop. Even with all the hype of a much better team their attendance has been averaging 12 to 15 thousand from what I have read. How about we put a special tax on all of the downtown business owners who think this is a great idea, and a surcharge on the game tickets sold to finance the new stadium. I'm sure all the supporters would not mind chipping in since this is supposedly a "win-win" situation for the city, at least in their mind. Think it would get built then? This thing is dead meat and if the Rays want to cry foul and leave so be it. Then the city can re-develop the dome and reap all of the benefits without sharing with a millionaire sports team. That's what I would call a win-win situation.

[Lin]

The thing that seems missing among the naysayers is the understanding that Al Lang is already a blackhole in downtown, used exclusively for baseball for generations. The Rays want to trade valuable land and the money generated thereby for the continued use of the Al Lang site for baseball - putting 86 acres into productive use in exchange for unused land already off the tax rolls.

That's a no-brainer, and anyone who doesn't see that is simply not going to support anything the Rays want.

The challenge, as Howard succinctly notes, is in limiting or, preferably, eliminating the risk to the taxpayer.

It can be done.

"Al Lang is already a blackhole"

Only in Pinellas would a developer's staffer, Rays staffer, or local politician's staffer start to spin Al Lang as a "black hole".

1. It's hot.
2. The Trop's not paid for.
3. It's hot.
4. Where do you another park 15,000 cars downtown?
5. It's hot.
6. The taxpayers own the Trop.

Did I mention it's hot?

[Smokey]

Here’s an interesting visual representation of reality for you folks. If you have Bay News 9, (perhaps other news organizations depending on the quality of their radar system)… closely observe the radar image of Florida during the weather forecast.

As you look at it from a statewide perspective, you will notice the dominant color of green. Then, turn you focus to Pinellas as the image moves in. You will notice the clear reality that Pinellas has the dominant color of concrete. Lord knows we need more of that.

… just an interesting observation.

[guy]

Wow ~~ It only took 3 weeks for Al Lang to become a black hole.
You guys remember Al Lang Field don't you !!!!!!

[guy]

About the Trop,
If something works you don't mess with it.

We should expect the “If you don’t pay for our new stadium, we will have to layoff workers, cut services, let criminals out of jail early, and the terrorists will attack us” approach real soon.

http://www.nwce.gov.uk/bank_images/spinning_top.JPG

Oh, you said spin the Trop as a black hole!

[guy]

Hot!!! Hot!!! it never gets over 91 at night.
It's only Money!!!!!
The Ray's will win more games there, cause the other team won't show up.
There will be NO SHOWERS or Air conditioning in the visitors dressing room.
Raymond will wear a bikini,
and there will be 2 EMT.s to walk Joe Madden out to the mound.$ in a day game.

[guy]

4 in a day game

The Al Lang site is a black hole in the sense that it a) generates zero tax dollars and b) has no existing purpose.

The Rays can fill the void, improving the economy of downtown, which is pretty slow during baseball season, and allow for the productive redevelopment of 86 acres into something that will improve the quality of life in our city.

The key is to make it work financially. If the taxpayers can be held harmless, it's hard not to like this opportunity.

[Lee]

Howard, I get and respect that you love baseball. Can you get and respect that I don't wish to pay for what YOU love. I LOVE your columns and so I pay for the Times. Show this to your bosses for a big raise! However if I didn't read the Times I wouldn't want it subsidized by we taxpayers. Furthermore is this not an incredible example of tell a lie often enough and it becomes true. Just because Bob Dupuy and all the same idiots who fed us steroid enhanced baseball say that the Trop is simply unsuitable are full of manure. Forbes magazine pointed out that the value of the Rays franchise increased 22% from 2006-2007..that's in a SINGLE YEAR!!! Their revenue increased 15.5% that same year...a year btw when they had the LOWEST PAYROLL in all of Major League Baseball. If Jabil industries, or the Times for that matter had the lowest payroll of any of their competitors and still showed increases of 22% in equity and 15.5% in revenue in a SINGLE YEAR..would we really say Jabil needed a new factory or the Times needed a new office building. Enough already, the greed being shown here is PALPABLE!!!!!~

Translation of 4:26 (aka: Rays staffer) post...

The Al Lang site is a black hole in the sense that it a) generates zero tax dollars and b) has no existing purpose.

* The Rays needed a place to move in order to slip through the loophole implanted in the lease. So they facilitated the end of baseball at Al Lang.

The Rays can fill the void, improving the economy of downtown,

* Just like the Trop did!

which is pretty slow during baseball season,

* And every other season you can think of.

and allow for the productive redevelopment of 86 acres into something that will improve the quality of life in our city.

* Just like the Trop did!

The key is to make it work financially.

* Coning the taxpayers into footing the bill.

If the taxpayers can be held harmless, it's hard not to like this opportunity.

* Just like the Trop!

[Faith Andrews Bedford]

Lin suggests that the City/County should agree to direct all proceeds from the sale and redevelopment of the Tropicana site toward the Rays proposed stadium.

But the needs of this city are too great for our Council to direct one penny of anyproceeds from any sale or redevelopment to anything but all the programs that have been or are being cut. Mayor Baker wants to slice 13 million off this year's budget. Social services are being cut back; our firemen don't have a contract, our neighborhood police patrols have been cut, schools are crowded. How can any taxpaying citizen find the logic in having our land sold and most of the money it MIGHT generate directed to constructing a stadium on public land valued at between 45 and 60 million dollars so that a group of investors can make money?

Thirty years of research has shown that stadiums do not make money for their cities and yet multi-millionaire businessmen continue to romance gullible/ambitious politicians into thinking that they should give away their city's resources to support
wealthy investors. It's corporate welfare, plain and simple.

No matter where a new stadium is built it profits no one but the Rays investors - not one of whom even lives here. There should be no public land or money spent for the benefit of for-profit groups.

[Matt Larsen]

I like the idea of someone who suggested that those who buy tickets to the games pay for the stadium.

Right on. Don't make the rest of us shoulder the burden of paying, directly or indirectly, for a stadium for a bunch of rich carpetbaggers.

If you do the math, based on the Rays stated figures of 17,000 average attendance at a game that means that only 7% of St. Pete residents and .05% - right, less than one half of one percent - of the greater Tampa Bay area goes to a game. Given the proposed cost of the waterfront stadium, each seat will have cost the taxpayers (not counting the 50 mill. or so the land is worth) $50,000 each.

I am not willing to pay for so few people to park their butts on gold plated seats when I am squeezed to keep my home, my kids can't go to the library whenever they want, crime is up in our neighborhood cuz the jerks in City Hall have cut our patrols and
my neighborhood nearly died cuz the ambulance got here late. Sorry, they said, cutbacks on personnel have diminished our response time.

Tell the Rays to build themselves a newstadium on the worthless, contaminated land they are already sitting on. But don't spend a dime of our communal money.

[Don Mott]

Lin, I guess you don't get it so let me explain, the Rays do not own the Trop so it is technically not theirs to trade. I'll make it real simple for you. If you lease a building for your business and want to move can you then trade that building to your new landlord as payment? Didn't think so. 'That' is a no-brainer. 4:26 It has no existing purpose because the last spring training game was just played there a few weeks ago, did you think it was going to change overnight. Actually it would add greatly to the community in the future as a park, (like the city agreed to) maybe with a band shell like Coachman Park in Clearwater. How can you predict that it will improve the economy of downtown when study after study has shown that this is not true in other cities? And the Rays presence at the Trop has done what to improve that end of town? How can the taxpayers be held harmless when the development and taxes from property they own is given to the Rays for a new stadium? Don't let the words "no new taxes" fool you. It's not new taxes but it is the cities taxes just the same. And the cities tax money is whose? It's not the Rays. Let me repeat the Rays do not own the Trop. Some folks either work for the Rays, don't have a clue or have pie in the sky dreams that aren't based on reality.

[Terra Rossa]

I thought you may be interested in this latest post on Terra Rossa from Whit Ayres titled “National Past Time Goes Green.” It talks about how the new Washington National Stadium leads off as one of the most environmentally friendly stadiums out there.

Terra Rossa is a blog that offers a free market perspective to solve our environmental problems.

Please check out the post and leave a comment on our scoreboard (aka comment section.)

Thanks,
Terra Rossa

[Howard Troxler]

Howard here again. I believe that some places have imposed a surcharge on ticket prices as part of their stadium financing and this seems fair to me -- certainly a direct "user fee."

My column tomorrow is going to go through the math of what I think the financial proposal is going to be. My conclusion is that any deal has to (1) not divert any existing tax dollars from their current use and (2) must not expose the taxpayers to any further obligation or liability. In other words, the developer of the Trop site has to guarantee the project will generate enough tax revenues to cover the cost.

You could make the argument, as some folks have done here, that the Trop site is publicly owned in the first place and the proposal is basically to sell off that public asset to help this private baseball team. That is perfectly true. Also, if that redevelopment is such a great idea, we could always pursue it INDEPENDENTLY of a new stadium altogether, and use the dough for many other worthwile things.

My own thinkin' is the same that it always has been; if the Tropicana idea is guaranteed to pay for it, it is worth considering; if not, no way... so my friends who feel strongly on either side have reason to believe I am in the opposing camp. :)

Stop being such a pansy and come out in support of the new stadium. You know all these naysayers are just a bunch of idiots... Or are you one too?

Terra Rossa, completely irrelevant, but I'll bite.

If you're somehow implying that this stadium would be a good thing because, like Washington, it would be very "green," I would like to remind you that it's construction requires dredging and filling (aka destroying) about a half acre or more of marine habitat. The sediment kicked up would impact a much wider area, disrupting and possibly even killing animals such as manatee, who drink fresh water from the very nearby underwater spring.

How GREEN is that?

It's one thing to buy carbon credits and install nifty eco gadgets in your stadium, it's another to actually give a s-h-i-t and not destroy the environment in the first place.

Nice try.

[Steve]

Howard, please do not suggest a single analytical approach that would marginalize this issue to "only the money or finances". This does a great dis-service to the less than adequately informed public. Throughout history looking only at the bottom line has brought terrible development to communities. By discounting all of the other issues by omission to a later date as if they bear no cost or consequence does not convey the importance of our land development regulations, our environmental protection agencies, the environment itself, the community rift being caused by the Rays all for the sake of money, the impact on businesses/downtown parking, the bay, our taxes, our trust in the city leadership, our existing contracts, our hundred acres of paid for city land, our parkland and our waterfront. These are not inconsequential issues to be minimized.

So what is POWW doing? POWW is the only group doing the comprehensive research on all issues and the only group working night and day to do what? Bring facts and figures to the citizens of St. Pete. Only POWW is going to neighborhood associations and civic groups to inform and to answer their questions about the full impact of this development to the community at large. It is not just the money issue!

We all know the City isn't educating the community. The City staff is not doing it. The Mayor is not doing it. The St. Pete Times is not doing it. (Yes, and I do give you credit. You were the first to have covered some very important issues and we all thank you for what you have done. But your help has not been as "comprehensive" as what POWW has done and is doing.)

The bottom line is this. There are many important issues and POWW has taken our findings and done what with them? Taken them to the media, to public hearing, out to the community and met individually with citizens one on one all over town. We are spreading the word to all that will listen.

Please help us by reporting on the other issues, now, before June 5th. God knows the council needs all the information they can get and from as many sources as possible and as soon as possible. Waiting until June 4th to educate the City Council and the public will be to late.

Really pretty disappointed in you, Howard. I heard you were a reasonable, rational person, not someone who only cared about money, money, money.

You don't care about the environment at all? Really?

You don't care about losing public land? Really?

You don't care about turning downtown St Pete, our cool, quiet little artsy city completely upside down 80+ days a year? Really?

So long as the taxpayers don't have to pay more than 350 million, everything thing else is totally kosher with you. Again, really?

[Don in St. Pete]

Howard, I too am a fan and until the past couple years also had full or partial season tickets every year. First of all I am against filling in any portion of Tampa Bay. That being said many of the warm and fuzzy feelings yourself and others have exhibited over the beautiful artistic rendition of a waterfront stadium are misguided. Have you ever been down near Al Lang Stadium on a hot August day or night when the winds blowing from the southwest. It would be a good reminder for you to experience that it's called the Albert Whitted wastewater treatment plant. There are also sure to be issues with the FAA and the monstrous mast. What happens when we get a good old Florida Thunderstorm and the rain is blowing in sideways as it does regularly. The Marlins had 40 rainouts or rain delays last year. They want to build a domed stadium. Al Lang should become a park, keep the Trop and revisit the development issue in 2-3 years when the market has recovered. We can probably get a lot better bang for our buck then. Whoever said that development is good for the city must be a developer or a Rays employee. Hometown democracy!

[Paul]

This is exactly why I love living in St Pete, because people care. This city has been fixed up, has grown and turned into a city that other local govts come to see so they too can have a 'cool city'.

My point is, St Pete is great because of the people and their actions. I have restored 2 properties here to their 1925 grandeur.

The Rays are looking to plop down a mega structure, that is completely out of character, scale and place (in my opinion) right on OUR beautiful waterfront.

I have this saying that I've ranted over and over during my years of restoration on my properties, 'anyone can knock something down and build a box, it takes a commitment to build and restore beauty, I'm personally saving St Pete, one building at a time.'

Al Lang could be used for so many other useful community based events. A new outdoor theater so the Deming's Landing folks have an even nicer place to host shows. Saturday Market, dammm that's a nice thing to have in our backyard. More open grass space, you know you love it, I do, that's a huge reason I moved here 14 years ago. A mega plex stadium is not right for sooooo many reasons.

Off soapbox, for now.

[Paul]

... sorry. Not right for so many reasons beyond just the financial aspect. Quality of life is not just money, its much more.

[Thor]

Thor welcomes back the honorable Mr Troxler. Thor was saddended by your hospital column today, Thor can relate. Hey Justin, you have not been honest with Thor, you are on the board of that silly little goup POPP. Hey Justin, Thor noticed you have been on this blog all day long, what's wrong Justin, business slow... probably not, but Thor figures you and the Clowns at POPP have been thinking up additional ways to change your story. The Rays have been 100% open and honest, POPP (POWW) has not. Thor knows you people have been changing your silly little story everytime additional information comes out. Your fearless leaders, (take a puff now Justin, Kathy and Hal, good now? Hungry?) have been changing thier tune. For a while you said the Rays did not pay for parking at the trop, they have, you said there is not enough parking downtown, there is. You say there is no way to pay for the new stadium, there is, with no new taxes there is, and it's too hot, it won't be. Thor guesses Justin's long hair will droop in the heat, poor little Justin. Hey Justin, the Rays say the sky is blue, the sun is in the sky and at night it gets dark. Thor is waiting for the additional lies coming from POPP. Hey Justin, the fun has just begun pal, Thor knows 125-95 is a victory anyway you cut it. Thor has spoken, Thor is wise, Thor is brave, Thor is belly laughing at Justin right now.

[Don Mott]

Howard, Since I feel your comments were directed towards my comments I have to say shame on you. If you want to jump on the bandwagon and give the Rays your tax dollars that is your prerogative but I thought you believed differently. Obviously I was wrong.

[Justin]

Thor, you mean POWW located at stpetepoww.com?

Thanks for the plug. By the way, how many of those speaking in favor of the stadium live in St Pete and don't work for the Rays.

[Justin]

Thor, you mean POWW located at http://www.stpetepoww.com

Thanks for the plug. By the way, how many of those speaking in favor of the stadium live in St Pete and don't work for the Rays?

[Thor]

Hey Don Mott, Thor likes your apple sauce. Now go to bed, Thor grows tired of your sour grapes. Hey Don, do some research on the new stadium, perhaps you'll be happy like a kid with a candy apple when you are done. Please Don, peel yourself away from this blog. Thor has spoken, Thor is wise, Thor is brave, Thor is good to the core.

[Justin]

Sorry Howard, but Thor really is a douche bag.

[Paul]

Have to say, the name calling and childish antics of 'thor' should just be ignored. Someone who gets their kicks by enticing arguments, contributes nothing to discussion. That's all I'll ever say about it. Just ignore this person, don't encourage them. Now, back to the real issue at hand, that mega plex thing they call a stadium is beyond butt ugly. Talk about cramming something into a spot that alot of people have done alot of work on to prevent pretty much this exact thing from happening. Kind of ironic, no?

[Justin]

Howard,

By what date do you think Council should have all the info it will need to review in order to make an educated decision?

Obviously, giving all relevant documents to them on June 6th would not give sufficient time for adequate review.

What date, in your opinion, would?

[Chris Jenkins]

The argument has been nailed down over and over again.

1. Promises of indemnity of the taxpayers against further liability are bogus. We know this based on both the Trop deal, and the history of stadium builders for the last 30 years. Not ONE major redevelopment project with similar parameters has been completed on time, on budget, and without further costs to the local taxpayers.

2. The social and environmental impact to the downtown area, between the dredge/fill, and the required parking, will be horrific. If you don't believe this, or understand why, go park downtown on a Friday or Saturday night. Then, imagine 15,000 more people also parking downtown. Better yet, all of you can meet me out there on July 4th, for a real live example of what happens when 10,000 people park downtown for fireworks. 30 minutes in, 15-20 minute walk from your parking space (sorry handicapable folks!), 15-20 minute walk back afterwards, hour to get out as ever avenue off beach drive turns into a parking lot before 4th street.

3. The Trop has not met their tax revenue goals. The positive business and social impact has not occurred, unless you are speaking about the positive business impact to Ferg's. Speaking of which, are they going to pay to relocate Mark and his friendly little baseball bar down to the waterfront? That is where Charlie likes to come and have a beer (bud light, if I recall correctly).

Bravo to POWW for being organized enough to do the research and to stand up for the issue. Thanks for the link, Justin. I'll be in touch to see how I can help.

[Thor]

Hello Justin, Thor here, nice comment. One usually resorts to that when one doesn't have a good argument. One usually resorts to name calling when one's story is always changing. Thor knows your story is always changing, face it Justin, you are just another shill in Hal and Kathy's little game of "Not in my back yard". Justin, ever really make a decision on your own, Thor knows you haven't. Face it Justin, you are crying about the new stadium and the Trop redevelopment because some ticked off person at One Beach Drive told you to. Delivering 10,000 new jobs, infusing over a billion dollars in construction, during a down economic time is good for everyone, except for shills like you and the clowns like Hal and Kathy. The reason they fight, they know this is all a great idea, go ahead silly little Justin, keep trying to shoot holes, hey Kathy and Hal, what is your story this week? Thor figures some how you'll blame or yell about some other falsehood because that is the type of people you are. Thor knows this, and to think, she was once pals with you. Thor has spoken, Thor is wise, Thor is brave, Thor is truthful and she's thinking about shopping 4 years from now in what once was a Trop parking lot.

[Me and you and a dog named boo]

Chris, just add your name to the long list of losers. Go Thor! Give 'em hell

[Chris Jenkins]

According to Thor, you must be one of those folks whose story is always changing, "Me and you and a dog named boo". Care to attach a real name to your statement, or are you one of those folks who likes to hide behind a white sheet, oops, I mean alias?

Hey, unsupported ad hominem is fun! Everyone can play along!

It doesn't matter how many of you guys come along with your goofy screen names, your pumped up sense of anonymous invincibility, and your vitriolic ad hominem attacks against people who are stronger than you in facts and logical deduction. "Union Busters" have always been around, and there have always been folks brave enough to stand up in the face of those beatings for what is right. It doesn't matter how many "Thor" and "Dog named Boo" types show up here and sling mud. I will still post about the facts here, with my real name. Let those of you with something to hide keep yourselves to your shadows where you belong. We know that posting your real name would immediately identify your paid connection to those who benefit from the deal. Your attempts at anonymous harrasment accomplish nothing.

[Larry]

Well, Howard, you have stirred the hornet's nest and incurred some bashing of your own from some of your fans. Obviously, this is going to be a very passionate issue with strong feelings on both sides. Like I said on an earlier post, the Trop is a pretty darn nice ballfield; comfortable and serviceable. Realizing that it will become obsolete at some time in the future, I don't think that day is here yet. To trash it simply for redevelopment purposes to generate public funds to build a monstrosity on St. Pete's beautiful waterfront, with significant environmental impact, seems foolish. Especially in these uncertain economic times. Keeping the Trop and no downtown stadium is what will get my vote. And frankly, except for Thor (?) and a few others, it sounds like us naysayers are in the majority. The wool was pulled over the taxpayers eyes by the city staff and council a few years back when they built the Trop. You know what they say: fool me once shame on you, fool me twice, shame on me.

[Flip Wilson]

SPT,

Clearly, this is a local election year issue for municipal and county officials.

Why haven't we heard anything from these folks, both incumbent and challengers… or are you not allowed to ask the question?

[Justin Elza]

I am just a concerned citizen who volunteers my time toward what I consider a worthy cause.

If that makes me a "shill" then yes, I am a shill.

And you didn't answer my question about how many of the 126 supporters actually live in St Pete or don't work for the Rays.

Also, your estimate of "10,000 jobs" is the kind of deceptive statistic the Rays have been putting out all along. They actually mean 10,000 job units, or 1000 jobs over a 10 year period.

And how many of those jobs will be filled by people from St Pete and not say...Mexico.

Again, you accuse me of being deceptive but you won't even answer a simple question or even use your real name.

And I do believe you are a douche bag because who other than a douche bag would call themselves "Thor" and attack someone because their last name was "Mott"?

Believe it or not, people like you actually help the anti-stadium cause far more than I ever could.

Thanks, Thor!

[Howard Troxler]

Oooooooooookeydokey.

Thanks again for the comments, although I really wish y'all would be nice and sweet.

There are good, rational reasons that good, rational people think this is a bad idea from the get-go. They are not idiots for that.

There are other people, yep indeed, even in the St. Petersburg city limits, who think it might be a good idea or aren't decided yet, and they are not idiots either. Or douche bags. (I am adopting Justin's two-word usage; it may be that the one-word style is only for the adjectival form).

I do not know if there is a clear majority evident. Everybody seems to be relating anecdotally that most of the people THEY know are against/for it. Same w/ me -- most of the folks I have heard express an opinion are agin' it, but that might say more about me than any true sample of public opinion. If we actually have to make this decision it will be by an election, which is a good thing.

I dunno, maybe I am being a wuss by insisting on the financial angle as the threshold question (see today's column, which I've posted here this morning). All I'm saying is that if it costs the taxpayers an extra penny beyond their current obligation, we don't need to go any further -- the game is over as far as I'm concerned.

[Justin Elza]

Good points, Howard.

Sorry for douchebagging up your column. :)

Still, I just think we have more important things to worry about, which is one of the main reasons this whole thing gets me so upset.

If this thing falls through, how much of the taxpayers time (via their elected officials) and money will have been wasted?

How might that time and money have been better spent?

[Howard Troxler]

Flip Wilson: Well, if the city hadn't KEPT THIS A SECRET during last year's City Council elections, it sure would have been a relevant issue then. (Twice in columns I've said the city ought to hold a "do-over" election now that the taxpayers know the truth.) As for this year, it might become an issue for county-level elections, especially if there is controversy over the county renewing its tourist-tax contribution.

Chris Jenkins: I appreciate your point about usin' your name, since whatever I have to say each day is right there under my name and photograph -- I don't mind anonymous comments most of the time, but I always get a little amused at the most vitriolic stuff flung from a pseudonymic pen (keyboard), and always respect more the person who calls me out with his or her own name.

(Laughing) This reminds me of a guy who had the guts to do that, telling me in no uncertain terms what a $#$% idiot I was. Using a standard line, I said, "Maybe I was just off today, and on another day I might say something you agree with." He shot back: "No, I've read ALL your columns and you are a $%%^%ing idiot." I had to laugh and say, "Well, it sounds like you have a well-researched opinion."

Signed,
Publius

[Howard Troxler]

Justin: I dunno if it's a waste, for a couple of reasons.

One is harsh reality -- sooner or later, we DO have to make a decision about a new stadium. The current lease runs out in, I think, 2027, another 19 years. So we could say to the Rays, "The hell with you, you'll stay there and like it." At some point it becomes more attractive to them, and MLB, just to break the lease and pay the consequences -- if we are willing to accept that outcome, then that's fine all the way around.

Even if they didn't bolt, at some point it becomes more expensive to maintain the old joint, which is already 20 years old, than build a new one. Same principle as a car -- unless you've got a good one, at some point it costs more to keep the old one than get a new one.

So, either we say (1) we're never gonna buy another car, and take the consequences, or (2) sooner or later we're gonna do it, and so here is the first pitch from the Rays on how to do that. If we don't like this pitch and reject it, they're gonna try again in 2-3 years, guaranteed.

Anyway, it's a process we have to go through, even if the eventual decision is in the negative.

[Chris Jenkins]

@ Howard, 9:56 -

As a sometime columnist myself, I appreciate how you put yourself on the line everyday. I think it's a fair contract for your readers, both proponents and detractors, to do the same, especially when they are flinging dung at those who disagree.

[Chris Jenkins]

Oh, and if anyone goes googling now, I'm the social issues, politics, and technology Chris Jenkins, not the sports Chris Jenkins, clearly... :D

[Justin Elza]

Howard, fair enough. But RIGHT NOW its a waste. In two or three years, if and when the economic situation changes, perhaps it would be a good time to discuss it.

I just look around me every day and see so many ways St Pete could spend its time and money improving itself.

A new stadium is kind of low on that list (just like a new car is low on my list right now).

[Kay]

"the economy of downtown, which is pretty slow during baseball season" do you know why? For the same reason Cape Cod clears out in the winter. The temperature. This area is not favored in the summertime. A new stadium will not change that one bit.
My husband is in a union. His business agent said "just hope that the new stadium is approved so that you can work close to home". That's who wants this thing built. My husband and I don't want it even though we would benefit for a few years. It is not worth the price to our home town. 10K new jobs? A lot of temporary jobs followed by a lot of part-time jobs. No thanks.
Howard, your comparison of cars old/new and structures old/new doesn't work. Cars are, in a sense, disposable. You don't buy a car in your 20s expecting to have it when you retire. Buildings are not like that - we expect them to last, and they do, generations, so long as they are properly maintained. I would expect a structure that cost millions upon millions to last the better part of a century (at least).

[Don Mott]

Justin at 9:27 Thank you for sticking up for me but if you don't respond to anonymous idiots they will eventually go away.

[Steve Lange]

Howard.

In response to your comment regarding that this issue will come back in another two or three years, I offer some historical perspective.

When the British sent out a seemingly invincible force to Lexington and Concord on April 19th, 1775 we all know what happened that day. The people, once aroused, closed in on all sides and chased the redcoats all the way back to Boston.

I will not say what is going to happen next in this theatrical charade but the Rays will never catch us off guard again.

[Joseph Howard Hoch Sr.]

Our legislators are trying to get us to believe that the proposed "new" stadium for the currant Al Lang site is a cash cow for the taxpayers of the county, and state. If that were true, why don't the millionair oweners, and millionair players invest thier monies into the site. Then they would have the cash cow. Statisics from all over the country have proven that these ventures have never payed for themselves. Take Tropicana field for example. The city wants to tear it down but, it is'nt even payed for yet.
So this proposal that the city is making is another opportunity for the millionairs to cash in at the expense of the taxpayers.