Two stadium environmental documents

Lorraine M. posts:

I have just asked Mr. Troxler if he would get two documents in my possession up on this blog......first, a 2003 SWIFTMUD report on the artesian well about 1,000 foot off the seawall of the proposed project. Also, the pre-agreement BETWEEN THE SWIFTMUD AND THE RAYS. Note that there ARE sea grasses, manatee and several other issues requiring mitigation. I don't know if Howard will do this......but you might find it interesting if he'll humor me.

Sure. The documents to which Ms. M. refers:

Download StPeteMarinawell.pdf

Download premeeting.doc

Comments

[Chuck]

I have to admit that I'm ignorant to the importance of a 100 year old artesian well near some boat slips. Can someone help me out with this?

As far as the meeting minutes, everything looks pretty thorough - at least they're not completely ignoring environmental impact.

"· Construction to commence summer of 09."

That tells you all you need to know.

[Chuck]

I don't get it. What does it tell me other than they had a timetable for construction?

Hi Chuck!..and thank you, Mr. Troxler!!

Well, the artesian well remains uncapped. Why, you may ask?? Shouldn't we cap all wells (as Swiftmud normally does with unattended unused artesian wells to protect the aquifer?). In this case, this well is exempt, or PROTECTED from uncapping by the SWIFTMUD because
Manatee are attracted to the well for its fresher water as well as its warmth. Its temperature is about 80 degrees, about 12 degrees warmer than the surrounding waters of the Bay. In other words, it's a hot spot, and of value to the manatee. Several problems could occur for the manatee and other aquatic life with a dredge and fill of the bay. A) the general turbidity and disturbance goes on for much longer than the work that originally gets done and B) in other stadiums around the country where a waterfront venue has been produced, folks tend to gather in huge numbers in boats beyond the stadium footprint awaiting fly balls. Google and you can find articles referring to such gatherings. As we all know, PROPS FROM BOATS are the devastating human element to the survivability and health of manatee. Since this IS a hot spot and attractant, the risk to damage to these creatures and others by a huge conglomeration of boating traffic OFTEN is real. In fact, scientists discussed this at the Agency for Bay Management meeting FROM the Fish and Wildlife Commission. The pre-agreement is NOT A PERMIT.....it was a pre-meeting discussing problems the SWIFTMUD already sees prior to HDR actually submitting a permit. These issues have NOT been solved...which is why ABM sent a harsh letter to the city council saying that there were big problems on the part of HDR, the hired mitigating firm, in addressing THESE ISSUES. FWC said that appropriate testing by THEIR standards (remember, FWC part of this permitting process to dredge and fill)would take up to a year from this point. We can have no assurances of environmental protection this year..going to referendum is not wise for 2008.

Lorraine

[Bill]

Phew! What a relief. Thanks Lorraine.

Glad to know there's nothing to worry about.

[Brian E Roche]

In all of the Times Editorials concerning the Baseball stadium and in your occasional articles concerning the Candidates for City Council, I do not believe that I have seen either one of your reporters or the Editorial Board, attempt to ask these Candidates what their current position is regarding the Ray's Proposal.

Considering that the Times initial reaction (if memory serves) as it relates to the secrecy surrounding this Proposal and the last City Election Cycle, I find it somewhat curious that this important question has not been raised, either by you, any other reporter, or the Editorial Board, as part of an honest airing of any potential City Council Member whom will not face electors.

I think that is a fair question...

What say you...

[Chris Jenkins]

Gee Lorraine, that would almost mean that the project could cost a lot more than expected if the environmental agencies require extensive mitigation for the local environmental impact, huh?

That would really mean that the previously thought fringe aspect of environmental concerns are actually of major import, potentially adding millions to tens of millions to the bottom line, like a great big cost over run. Tack on the associated administrative and legal costs connected to a protracted environmental review process, and I bet that number breaks 9 figures. Should we try to set a record for greatest cost over run ever? That's definitely one way to get on the map...and hey, it might revitalize downtown!

[Chuck]

Hmmm... You're not really concerned about boats waiting to catch home runs, are you? If my memory serves me correctly, most of the boats awaiting balls in San Francisco were kayaks, canoes and single engine dinghies.

Either way, it's a negotiable issue. If manatees were to be in danger because of an increase in boat traffic in the area, rational people will accept a ban on motorized watercraft in the area.

I hope environmental concerns aren't based on this kind of negative speculation. There must be something else.

"I hope environmental concerns aren't based on this kind of negative speculation. There must be something else."

Ummmm, how about the Rays and the Politicians have lied about this deal from the beginning... and throw in that whole "We don't need it" thing while you're at it... oooo, don't forget the "NO TAX DOLLARS" thing as well.

... and then there's this little problem...

http://www.pubnix.org/~chrise/images/iowa/boondoggle_no_9.jpg

[guy]

I think that little spring outlet in the bay, is more exciting, interesting, and more important, than anything those bergers from New York want to do to our waterfront.

[get-smart]

The Rays want the stadium on the ballot this year for the presidential elections. They figure that there will be more voters available to vote "Yes." An off year election will bring out the neighborhood "No" vote only. Why would you get off your couch to vote "Yes?" We already have a stadium!

[Chuck]

Shame on the Rays for wanting a higher vote turnout so fringe groups don't provide an accurate sample of citizens! SHAME!

[Chuck]

Ehh..We'll write that off as a freudian slip. Of course I meant "inaccurate".

[guy]

Are you saying you wood Chuck?

[guy]

I meant would chuck

[Chuck]

Don't you have a little spring to go play in, Guy?

[guy]

It's too cold in the spring,
I'd get all numb Chuck.

[Chuck]

Drownings have been less tragic.

[guy]

I'd have a Kayak or a canoe like those guy's in San Francisco

[Chuck]

Good because we wouldn't want one those useful sea cows hurt.

[Don Mott]

My Dear Chuck, I've been following your comments on the other blog as well as here. I've yet to see you or any other stadium advocate show some valid numbers or reasons as to why this thing should be built. Contrary to your incessant rumbling otherwise the stadium opponents have given many references and examples as to why it should not be built. Chris Jenkins has provided independent testimony regarding the silt damage etc. that could occur from the dredge and fill, and Lorraine has now shown us proof that there is an artesian well, and sea grasses there as well which others have disputed.Study after study shows that a pro ball stadium does nothing to enhance the city or neighborhood but does cost more money than projected,(see Tropicana Field)for an example. The only reasons I have heard for why it should be built are that I want it and it's great for the city. Show us the proof and we could have a lively debate otherwise you are you are just ranting aimlessly.

[guy]

Chucky ~ R U from San Fran ??

[guy]

OOPS I guess he left on his Chuck Wagon Don.

Chucky you seem to know a lot about San Francisco and sea cows. You now know where the cows live. You did say you like hunting. Don't get any ideas. They're not good eating. You're better of going to the Trop with your bfriend Kalt and getting a corn dog. If you know what I mean.

[guy]

No name ~~ which one likes the corn dog best??

[Don Mott]

Yeah guy, or maybe he had a flight to N.Y. to catch.

Where are all of the stadium detractors who blame the supporters for having nothing to add but personal insults? 5:38 should be your next target. Making fun of homosexuals! That can't sit well with stpetecreative.

[Chuck]

Sorry Don, born and raised here. Just not from the whacky liberal side of town.

[guy]

Well anyways lets thank our liberal environmentalist Larraine M. for bringing this natural phenom, to our attention. This is something that will blow the plan "out of the water". But City Hall really scares the bee gees out of me.
I will support any group or any person who is against the Ray's plan.
I have lots of places to put signs etc.
Thanks again Lorraine and keep the pedsl down. ~~~ gun

[guy]

No name ~~ see 5:45 someone is tryibg to B U ~~ g
It's funny how after a while you don't even have to see a name to know who's who.

[paul]

I'm against the proposed stadium mostly because it just does not fit into the spot they want to put it. By that, I mean it doesn't sit in nicely with the surrounding buildings but completely dwarfs everything around it. They even want to fill in the bay to make it fit. That to me is a cram job. These guys are from NYC and I'm sure that's pretty much what they have to do up there to build anything. However, this is St Pete and for a very very long time, the waterfront has been a major draw and showcase feature of our City. Sure, the costs of a new stadium are so insane they are insulting. Sure, the wheeling and dealing by our City has been murky to me, at best. Sure, the current Trop site isn't exactly a hotbed of activity. But, cramming all that stadium with all that noise and all those cars and people into a tiny waterfront lot is not the answer.

Our downtown is looked at by other city's mayors to see what they can learn to make their own downtowns more active and attractive. I'm sure those mayors leave St Pete thinking 'if we only had all that waterfront space...'.

Just wanted to throw in my 2 cents, as everyone is getting quite specific over finances and how our City is going to be better off (someone please mention the cost of insurance on the sailboat stadium, please).

I want to increase the awareness of how this proposed stadium will dwarf the waterfront and make living anywhere near it impossible to tolerate during games. Thanks for that nice 'to scale' drawing over on the stpetepoww.com website. Can I get one of those on bumper sticker or yard sign?

Then there's this to consider... the City Council actually had proposed evicting the little restaurant on the Pier approach because their 2 man band was playing too loud. A 2 man band. Can't have any little bar band playing on the waterfront because Council won't tolerate it. Now just how loud do you think a MLB game is? How far away are you going to be able to hear the announcer pumping up the crowd to the loud music. Not saying I don't enjoy a nice loud event, but that is not the spot to put a MLB stadium.

And to save you the time on your creative insults, I'm: not old, have lived here 14 years, am a local business owner, not against loud events (in the right location) and live 1.5 miles northwest of downtown, not in any waterfront condo.

Chuck, Thank you for standing up to what are mostly divide & conquer wing nuts on this thread. The preliminary discussions between SWFMD & the Rays, as well as their proposal to "Commence Construction in 2009" is not part of the "conspiracy", certainly not scandalous, and most definitely OLD NEWS! While the permitting process(typically 18-24 months) would probably be expedited, it will be followed. Every now and then it's good to come up for a breath

I've 'gotta tell you guys......you've definitely given me some laughs.....I WILL let you know that there are some laws being examined right now from the federal level and otherwise........and you can most certainly yuk it up right now......but a little plume can go a long way.

Thanks for taking some of your time and thought on this issue. If nothing else, I am inspired by your immense time dedicated to thought and conversation regarding the environment. I'll also say that some of the biggest supporters that I personally know of regarding conservation lands and PAYING attention to what we got left are CONSERVATIVE REPUBLICANS.....and my dear friends. So thanks again, and pay attention. The game is afoot....and let's ALL thank Howard Troxler for being one of the special folks on the planet. He has my utmost respect for his savvy, love of the planet and just good plain sense. AND, he's educable........AND and educator.

Lorraine (that's with an "o").

[Jon McPhee]

At least one poster here takes his cues on how to "win" from the Little Red Book put together by Newt Gingrich to wedge the current pack of "leaders" into power.

Remember that family-values adulterer, who taught his fake "conservatives" how to split the country and give us the mess we have now by use of loaded epithets? The same fake conservatives who have handed our nation a $9 trillion national debt, by spending and borrowing at a rate that would shock even a Democrat like Tip O'Neal, and a fiscal crisis by "profit"-driven speculations on derivative investments based on subprime loans and the like.

The Rays owners are from the same sub-prime set that is getting bailed out to the tune of hundreds of Billions with a “B”, VIA TAX DOLLARS AND PUBLIC DEBT, since they decline to live by the same rise-or-fall, naked greed, laissez-faire capitalism creed they champion and stick into the rest of us. I guess since we are a smaller city, we should be happy to only be facing a possible single-billion risk for the promise of “great returns in the future – Trust Us!”

Yes, Gingrich spent a lot of PAC money to develop a charming list of terms like "liberal" and "secular" and "progressive," and a whole lot more, that "conservatives" were taught to spit out with a sneer to describe their enemies. This kind of demonizing has been going on since long before Herr Goebbels and his heirs figured out how to sell Big Lies by repetition and association.

Lawyers learn a little maxim early on: "If the law is against you, argue the facts. When the facts are against you, argue the law. And when both are against you, attack the prosecutor." I can hardly wait to hear the "stadiators" start naming as "traitors" the rational people who would like not to be "con-ned," and stuck with a billion-dollar, carpetbagger-enriching, freeloading White Elephant with a Sail on its back, before they have half a chance to see what a notoriously secretive, not to say historically sneaky, set of city slickers actually have in mind. ALL the pieces, not just one little peek at a time so that "irrational exuberance" of the sort that inflated the last Wall Street bubble can't steam-roll the cautious.

Might I add that "profit" can be good, if it’s a value-added kind of thing, like charging more than it costs to grow wheat or make machine tools or steel or invent some labor- or resource-conserving technology or device. But "profit" that is a scam, just a way of hacking a piece off the public’s wealth in taxability and common lands, say in exchange for a baseball venue, might best be looked at a little more carefully, and maybe rationed out in smaller bites.

And if you don’t believe that "disinformation" and dirty tricks are in the air, one teeny sample is the post on 4/22 at 1:09PM, bravely anonymous but posing as a comment from an illiterate hippie communist disloyal anti-progress secular humanist nogoodnik. I’m just curious: was anyone convinced that was a real-person post? No way of telling, I’m sure.

So keep Chucking your hardball epithets, sir. If you can't find the list on your own, here it is: www.fair.org/index.php?page=1276. Most of the "secularists" have been too civil to stoop to the same tricks.

[Jon McPhee]

Waterfront: as one who grew up in the Chicago area and actually got to live with and use, with a couple of million other people, dozens of miles of a true public and open waterfront full of parks and activities and open space, it's sad to think that this area might turn over a big chunk of it to a pretty much single-use profit center.

Chicago for over a century has profited as a community from the "Burnham Plan," created by some rich and influential guys who saw community values as more valuable than development for the benefit of a relative few. In Chicago, the Burnham Plan has become a potently effective "comprehensive plan" that has saved a lot of waterfront from grabs by the few. This, in a City where the fix is always in, and politics is a contact sport, and rich guys usually get whatever they want. Take a look at this short article on the Plan:
http://www.encyclopedia.chicagohistory.org/pages/1326.html

We live in a state where "comprehensive plans" and "urban planning" seem mostly a conveniently elastic cover for developers to pack more people into the remaining open space, burn up more of the region's limiting resources of water, public service and the like.

What a strange contrast between the City of the Big Shoulders, which is vibrant and alive and always on the make, with a well-preserved set of public amenities, and our City by the Bay, which can't seem to say no to any "exciting new deal" that comes along.

Please, let's look carefully at what we, ALL of us, would be buying for SOME of us, before we fork over public assets to "make the deal happen."

[Chuck]

Jon -

Yawn.

[Howard Troxler]

Should I have deleted the corn dog line?

Howard. I thought the corn dog line was good, but maybe it can be fixed:

Chucky you seem to know a lot about San Francisco and sea cows. You now know where the cows live. You did say you like hunting. Don't get any ideas .... they're not good eating. You're better off going to the Trop with your bfriend Kalt and getting a corn dog ... his treat.

I'd like to address 7:48....Howard, your blog has become so infamous, I guess let the corn dogs fly......might be handy to get that Agency on Bay Management letter up....Aaron had it URL' d in one of his Breaking News Items:

7:48 says:

Chuck, Thank you for standing up to what are mostly divide & conquer wing nuts on this thread. The preliminary discussions between SWFMD & the Rays, as well as their proposal to "Commence Construction in 2009" is not part of the "conspiracy", certainly not scandalous, and most definitely OLD NEWS! While the permitting process(typically 18-24 months) would probably be expedited, it will be followed. Every now and then it's good to come up for a breath

Posted by: | April 23, 2008 at 07:48 PM

7:48....by virtue of your insight into the regulatory process, you debunk a 2009 build start time.

Now, what interested me most was your proclamation of the "expedited process".

How do you know or "envision" that? Are you SWIFTMUD, or HDR??

Let's all understand what regulatory agencies are and Who the client is....the developer, of course! Ask any worker in the "permits office", and they'll tell you that 100 permits per day are dumped on their desk. Usually, rubber-stamped......why? Because who pays the bills?.....you guessed it, Mr. and Mrs. Developer!!

Now, what stops the "expediting" process?? You guessed it again....the squeaky wheel!!

Here's one thing I can assure you of.....being battle-hardened through the process of defending the integrity of Ft. DeSoto County Park, Brooker Creek Preserve, battling for strengthened protection for Shell Key Preserve and Coffee Pot Bayou Bird Island....there is literally an ARMY of squeaky wheels out there........who are sick and tired of "expediting" regulatory requirements. So, in point of fact, do NOT expect the quick approval process. It's not correct, it's not to law, and we just can't do that anymore.

Thanks again for your comments!! Most helpful!

Lorraine

Well, Yawn, I guess that says it all. So Chuck it all. Snail darters and sea cows and sea grasses, what are they as against a nice green fertilizer-and-pesticide-induced outfield and the suck-you-in dream of a mythical cash cow, a virtual-reality field of dreams? The Borgs have it right: in this city and state, "Resistance is futile!" Well, at least we don't have casino gambling and other "improvements" at Fort Desoto Park. Yet.

[Chuck]

Casino gambling at Fort Desoto??? Must have missed that proposal. I'm all for it. What activist group to I have to sign up with to show my support?

Resistance is futile! Make the world a parking lot!

[Chuck]

Perhaps I wrote Jon off too soon. I should respond to this:

"Waterfront: as one who grew up in the Chicago area and actually got to live with and use, with a couple of million other people, dozens of miles of a true public and open waterfront full of parks and activities and open space, it's sad to think that this area might turn over a big chunk of it to a pretty much single-use profit center. "

So what you're saying is St. Petersburg doesn't have sufficient park space?

I don't know how often you drive to the Al Lang site, stand on the seawall and enjoy the view but I'm guessing rarely.

Furthermore, your opening line disqualifies you from having any input on this subject.

Oh Chuck, that Ft. D crack will not earn you an 'atta boy from Mr. Troxler...see this piece and URL below, one of many he wrote to highlight the stupidity of developing and offering a haven for drinking at a county park precious for it's pristine presentation and the flora and fauna that calls Ft. D home. Howard AND HIS GREAT COLUMNS helped to seal the death of development at Ft. D.

http://www.sptimes.com/2006/02/19/Columns/Has_county_heard_from.shtml

And I'll never forget it......even though he can't see the validity of the issues YET coming from some of the more stalwart opponents of the Rays deal (in time, he may see the light), but between his fine work on the Ft. D and Brooker Creek Preserve debacles, and Hometown Democracy, well the list goes on......Mr. Troxler will always have my respect and gratitude.

Lorraine

[Chuck]

Lorraine,

Your "kill them with kindness" strategy has me gasping for my final breaths.

You seem like a pretty good person, unlike most of the corn dog fans around here.

Thanks Chuck.....

We're all good folks, because we care enough to debate and think beyond our own persoanl needs. What I love about democracy.......!! I just wish I keep seeing more examples OF it in future. We need all the brainpower we can get to fix this broken state and country. So just keep thinking.......it does us all some good.....thanks for the comment. If we all behave a bit better on this and other blogs, there's no telling what we may actually TEACH each other, if not actually convince.

Lorraine

[guy]

Chucky, Cheeez Please stop the corn dog jokes, Howard is going to start bleeping.

[guy]

Lorraine it's hard to give you an O after an A+.
Good work on your research,all the best from the far right too.

[Chuck]

Guy,

Consider the corn dog dead, you poorly sugared churro.

[Drama Queen]

It's really ALL about Lorraine, isn't it?

[Larry]

Where are Thor and Justin?

[guy]

Larry,
Wasn't there a Movie ~
Thor, Chucky and Mike meet Frankenstein.?????

Thanks, Guy........the research is far from over, stay tuned.

Lorraine

[Steve]

Keep in mind we have gone from .6 acres to one full acre of landfill into Tampa Bay. Almost twice as much as was presented by the Rays initially. Once their architects put pencil to paper and determine the true width of the proposed stadium we may find that we are another 50 feet or more further east into the Bay requiring more landfill. Who knows how much in the end? The stadium is already lapping up and over the southwest corner of Demens Landing. How much is this City willing to give up. Wake up St. Pete.

[Paul]

Earth to City and Rays... the proposed sailboat stadium doesn't fit on the Al Lang site. Why are you trying to cram what would be the biggest structure downtown, onto a postage stamp sized area? Take a look at the Trop. Wow, its perfect and you want to knock it down? I got socks older than that building.

[Thor]

Earth to Paul, the new stadium does fit, Thor knows that, why don't you. Hey Paul perhaps this fantastic idea, doesn't fit inside your puny little brain. Let Thor help. Here we go, pay attention. New Stadium = good. New stuff at Trop = good. Lots of jobs = good. New rain water plan for the bay because of the new stadium = a lot less pollution into the bay = good. Small brain = Paul. Thor is glad she can help you Paul. Hey Justin, paying attention hippie boy? Thor has spoken, Thor is brave, Thor is wise, Thor is hungry.

[Paul]

No, the proposed stadium doesn't fit. They're asking to fill in the bay and be quite of out of character and contrast with the surrounding buildings. Notice the parks and lower rise buildings along the water... and then the taller ones across Beach Drive? That's called a nice thing, cascading visually, not overwhelming and over sized. Thanks for the glib comments though, glad you at least get to entertain yourself. Don't do that too much though or you'll go blind and grow hair on your palms (or fingers, in the case you're actually female).