Come on and let me know: Should she stay or should she go?

Okay, this is sheer opinion on my part, not backed up with any actual journalism, but it's Friday so let's shoot the breeze about the Democrats.

(1) I still think Hillary Clinton would be a stronger Democratic candidate against John McCain in the fall than Barack Obama would.

Go ahead, call me an idiot; I'm used to it. But she's been around the block and all her negatives are known. Forty-two percent of the nation hates her and would never vote for her. But that is not 50 percent, is it? Besides, I have a standing bet that Hillary wins the White House IF she's the party nominee, so I'd like to see it play out.

Obama, even now, is still a relative blank slate to mainstream America. I also think he's a sitting duck for a brutal, full-scale attack, the kind that transformed John Kerry in 2004 from a Vietnam medal-winner to a French-speaking wimp. I can see it in the man -- the impatient feeling that "Look, I've already dealt with this childish nonsense," when the bulk of the nation has not even turned its attention to it. I still regularly get those "pass it on" e-mails about how he's a Muslim who took the oath of office on the Koran. Like all idealistic Democrats, Obama will not be able to fight back, will resent that he needs to, and he will complain about how unfair it all is. The question comes down to which candidate would be better in a knife fight.

(2) Regardless, Obama has won and it is time for her to quit and unify the party.

Despite point (1), Obama has almost surely won the party's nomination, barring a miracle/disaster or a rebellion -- even if you give Florida to Clinton. The "rebellion" would be the party insiders giving her the nomination no matter what, which seems unlikely. The miracle/disaster would be if Obama somehow blew up before the convention -- if they caught him on tape burning a flag, or he turns out to be a member of Al-Qaida, or some figure close to him even more explosive than Rev. Wright turns up. Maybe Clinton is hanging around waiting for this, but it's too slim a chance. She ought to quit -- and spend the rest of the year repairing the Clinton family image by being as gracious and supportive and happy a party warrior as she can be. Same goes for that guy she hangs out with, who really needs to do something gracious about now. If President McCain serves one term; the Dems get a fresh chance against Vice President Cri -- I mean, whoever the nominee is in 2012.

Like I said, sheer opinion on my part. The floor is open; I am all ears to hear what you think.

Comments

[Rene]

She needs to bow out gracefully and soon, so they have enough time to unify the party and start educating voters that McCain is Bush 2.0. I think a ridiculous 40-something% of Clinton supporters say they would vote for McCain if she doesn't get the nom, presumably because he's been trumpeted as the maverick moderate but even a cursory review of his record (abortion as an example) indicates otherwise.
If they can effectively equate John McCain to a continuation of the past administration I believe Obama will win it, supposed lack of electability and all.

[Jon McPhee]

Hate to say it, but it looks like another 4 years, at least, of same-old-same-old.

This tiny elector agrees that Hillary would make a stronger candidate, and that Obama will wilt under the hot air from Limbaugh and Will and even the resurrected Newt "Never met a wife I couldn't cheat on" Gingrich.

Our press corps likes soap opera and horse races so much better than the hard job of exploring issues that kind of color the survival of the nation and the world, and illuminating where the various candidates stand on them -- as if one could really figure that out from the blizzard of position papers and micro-campaigning to special groups.

And the creeps on both sides of the Capitol aisle will keep on earmarking and log-rolling and back-scrathing, and rubber-stamping supplementals to fund the idiocy that's going on in Iraq and Afghanistan, and sneakin in "tax expenditures" for the benefit of the special pleaders who help them get re-elected.

At least all of this give folks who fill the kind of niche Howard Troxler occupies an endless stream of grist for their mills.

Dear Lord, have mercy on us -- we know not what we do. "Resistance is futile."

[Reality]

Applying yesterday’s political “Who can win it” theory to today’s anti business as usual environment is a risky bet. The polls have been all over the place, and more often that not, wrong in some cases by a significant margin.

Personally, I find Obama a refreshing change of pace. Due respects to Clinton and McCain, but career politicians who have presided over the current mess we’re in, now claiming to be the presumptive saviors, do not endure themselves to those of us recognize the desperate need for a change.

From my perspective, America is due for a political revolution; a house-cleaning, if you will. Sound bites and sanctimonious leadership have led us down the wrong path for the past 7+ years. Mind you, my opinion has nothing whatsoever to do with partisanship. I have always been of the opinion that there isn’t a dime’s worth of difference between a Republican and a Democrat – once in office.

The Red versus Blue game is for the malleable masses. In the reality of today’s politics, it isn’t about Red and Blue – it’s about Green and Greed. We’ve allowed ourselves to be manipulated into a PC mindset based on the premise that “Perception is Reality”.

The truth; perception is perception and reality is reality, and if you can’t tell the difference, you’re in for a world of hurt. I believe that to be self evident, by virtue of policy makers who prefer to focus on the perception of trucknuts, rather than the reality of foreclosures.

[Chuck]

I don't see how the Deomcratic Party can ignore the fact that Clinton is more popular in the states that would actually matter during the general election - Ohio, Florida etc...

It would be great theater to see the election yanked out from under Obama and the subsequent racial fallout. This kind of division in a political party could actually lead to some sort of a viable third party which I think would please most level headed Americans.

I'm all for the drama...keep it going to the convention.

[Justin Elza]

For what its worth, I'm a democrat and if Hillary is running I will vote for McCain.

An Obama/Clinton ticket might be okay, especially if Crist is McCain's VP.

[Chuck]

How come? I'm not trying to be a jerk about it, I'm genuinely interested why you'd jump over Hillary on the political spectrum and land on McCain.

[Rich]

Good post Reality. The Dems and GOP are a two headed monster. Things will stay the same, only the names will change. Just depends which side of K street they work for. Not sure even Obama is a candidate for change. Afterall he is a Dem and will be boxed into representing their special interests that fund their campaigns.

Trox, if you believe McCain wins over Obama then get on Intrade now and start selling Obama futures that give him a 55% chance of winning the election and start buying McCain futures that give him a 38% chance.

I find myself having to vote against someone instead of for someone again in this election. Can't stand the paranoid neo-cons who think everybody is out to get them. Don't want another Bush-Clinton-Bush-Clinton. I'd like to vote Libertarian but can't risk another 4 years of bullying the world.

Perhaps one day we will establish a balanced plurality voting system that adds a negative voting option so that I can actually vote for who I want while not allowing those I dislike from benefiting with a false positive.

[Rich]

Chuck,

I'm with you. I'd like both parties to fall apart. In fact, I'd like to see either of the Dems break free from the party and run as an independent in a 3 way race. Not ideal candidates but at least it would be a start to having a viable 3rd option.

[Tim]

How about a Perot/Troxler ticket! Talk about cutting throught the BS.

[Chuck]

Except that would cause McCain to win in a landslide and I'm assuming you wouldn't want that.

These are Hillary's lines.

Always tease tease tease
You’re happy when I’m on my knees
One day is fine, next day is black
So if you want me off your back
Well come on and let me know
Should I stay or should I go?

[Rich]

I'd take a McCain win if it meant a step in the right direction. Sometimes change for the better can be painful in the short term.

I consider myself fiscally conservative and socially liberal. Unfortunately the GOP hasn't quite lived up to the smaller, fiscally responsible government that I prefer. If McCain weren't such a hawk and the supreme court wasn't so old, I would probably lean his way.

[Larry]

As a Republican who is fed up with the current administration and mishandling of everyhing from the war to the economy to energy, I would not even consider voting for another Clinton. I definitely feel that we have been am-Bushed by the current administration and he definitely will earn history's first place prize for the worst President, ever. He rode to a second term on the fears of the American people after 9/11, but what has he rreally accomplished? Nothing. I will probably support the party's nominee, John McCain, but it leaves me cold in the hope for some real fixes to the problems facing most Americans today. Obama leaves me cold as well, that is why I would support the Republican candidate. No more Clintons, please. Let her go back to New York where they obviously love her. They can have her.

[Justin Elza]

I just don't think Hillary is a good person.

Obama has his faults, but I think he has principles and integrity. I think McCain does as well, although I am less in agreement with his position on many issues(I'm a Dem, but much closer to a conservative Dem than anything).

Also, I want someone other than a Clinton or a Bush in office for a change (it's been what, 20 years now?).

[guy]

I do not support any of the three.
She should stay in the fray.
The Dems are living on a different planet, Pink Mars.
McCain is a old nut, who left his brains in the Hanoi Hilton.
I think Obama probably has Al Quida connections and we know that Hillary hangs out with Chuck Schumer.
So I am sick to death of these fools that are traitors for the almighty buck.
I will not vote in this election so I can make fun of all you people getting what you deserve.
If McCain picks Thompson for VP I might re-consider.

[Houston]

LIKE IT MATTERS ! It is a just a show. They all do the same thing once in office: pay the private interest debts they owe. The electoral college prevents our votes from really counting to prevent the ignorant masses from a popular vote. It is the true taxation without representation. Let us just get rid of the parties altogether as it does not seem to matter and only causes their government to spend a lot of time on partisan squabbles. Black or white, male or female, spayed or neutered, it is just a show !

[Rich]

Sorry Guy but if you don't vote then you get exactly what you deserve.

At least write in a candidate. You give those you like the least a false positive but at least you are doing your civic duty.

[guy]

Rich I find my time more valuable.
It's like buying a lottery ticket when you know all the winners are gone::::

[Linda Campbell]

I wish that our (the people's) votes would count and the superdelegates would stay completely out of it.
Than the best lady would win her presidency for sure!
You go Hillary!

[Chris]

I would much rather see Hillary as the Democratic nominee and our next President for 8 years, followed by Obama.

As a registered Dem, who has never voted for a Rep and can't stomach the thought of voting that way, I may just sit this one out, as a silent rebellion against the DNC for not wanting my vote to count.

A few other points:
1) Much has been made of the Dem candidates not campaigning here in FLA, but with today's technology, anyone who took the effort to vote in the primary was making an informed decision.

2) The Dem candidates not campaigning did not prevent Romney from running a negative campaign AGAINST Hillary and she still took 55% of the vote.

3) Obama taking his name off the ticket in MI - slick move - he knew he couldn't win in MI and now has the opportunity to fall with the claim "I wasn't even on the ballot."

4) Had FLA and MI counted from the get-go and Hillary was the front runner afterwards, would Obama have been able to string together that 11 state winning streak? Doubtful, as unfortunately, most of our citizens are followers, incapable of making informed decisions.

5) Where was the media in reporting all this stuff about Obama's church? To me, he attended that church to create some street cred for his run in politics, but stayed for 20 years. Even if, as an adult, he and his wife are able to disavow the rants of Wright, how could he put his children in that environment at a time when they are the most vulnerable to ideas espoused by authority figures?

6) Why did it take a Saturday Night Live skit for the media to wake-up and see the tilted playing field they had created in their debate and interview questioning? Reagan was also the teflon candidate as I recall, Obama is the current teflon candidate - nothing sticks.

7) I fully expect an October surprise, which will ultimately hand the election to McCain - God have mercy on our country for another 4 years of Republican rule.

[Bill]

Hillary should stay in. She has a chance to beat McCain while Obama has no chance whatsoever. If the Democrats really want to secure the White House, they should draft Al Gore at the convention.

[Teacher]

Pedophiles without partners meeting this Sat at 10 at you local middle schools teachers lounge.

[Teacher]

Pedophiles without partners meeting this Sat at 10 at you local middle schools teachers lounge.

So Gore is the secret weapon. Gore/Hillary That's the ticket. What about Bill?

[doug]

I think they should both step down so a moderate candidate could get the nomination and most likely win.Either Gore or Edwards would be acceptable to me, but there is no way I could vote for either of the current ones.
doug

[observer]

The way the democratic party set up this farce of a season has lead directly to this unfortunate situation. No one can claim a majority of their fellow party members support. What the DNC has accomplished is the construction of a circular firing squad. With the presumptive candidate we are offered a redo of the most ineffective individual to hold the presidency in ages - Jimmy Carter. I'd want to see an individual who has experience as a governor as having served as a cabinet secretary. That background and experience gives the person the needed background to effectively move the country forward. I'd suggest that the election of any of the current candidates will be a regressive move.

[observer]

The way the democratic party set up this farce of a season has lead directly to this unfortunate situation. No one can claim a majority of their fellow party members support. What the DNC has accomplished is the construction of a circular firing squad. With the presumptive candidate we are offered a redo of the most ineffective individual to hold the presidency in ages - Jimmy Carter. I'd want to see an individual who has experience as a governor as having served as a cabinet secretary. That background and experience gives the person the needed background to effectively move the country forward. I'd suggest that the election of any of the current candidates will be a regressive move.

[Edward]

I fail to understand a rationale that suggests a lively race and convention is bad for the party. Since when? Remember some of the conventions of the 60s and 70s? That was some great theater. Stay in, Ms.Clinton... your continued presence keeps the discussion interesting.

[Rich]

Chris,

If you sit out an Obama-McCain election, you do you realize that you are essentially casting your vote for McCain. Unfortunately the way the system is set up you need to vote against somebody not neccessarily for somebody.

[Chuck]

As a registered Independent, I haven't seen a candidate that has captured my interest in, oh, forever....literally.
The two-party system is an utter, unrecoverable failure. Choices are made long before the primaries, disallowing the American public from selecting a President who could really make some changes. Party politics & loyalties rule White House (and Congress), not the will of the American people. The voting process itself has almost become a process of voting against the candidate you dislike rather than voting for a viable candidate.

[Chuck]

What's the big deal with this Obama guy anyhow? Do you even know what his goals are?

You can save the part about the war because I'm really not interested. Is there an easier campaign platform in this country than anti-war? Seriously? Think back to all of the candidates who have ever run on an anti war platform - they're all media darlings.

[Scott]

Politicians will stay the same course until they realize that Americans are tired of the way they support big money and ignore the average person.

The only way they will realize this is when Americans make it a priority to vote out any and all incumbents, regardless of party. Do this every 2 years and you will eventually send a message......but this "gang mentality" party way of doing business has to stop. The two parties will not allow a good independent thinking president to get anything done.

It doesn't matter who we pick for Pres, it will be business as usual. For all you party people, realize this: Republicans held control and screwed us. Democrats wrestled control away and continue to screw us.

[guy]

Listen to what choices we had to start with.

Ron Paul~
If this guy doesn't cross dress I'll kiss you butt.

Dennis Kucinich~ should wear a straight jacket.

Joe Biden~~ 2 Major brain operations where matter was removed.

Chris Dodd ~~ whos father Tom was the last person to be censured by congress for stealing money.

Rudy ~~ Cross dressing dingbat?, or womanizer???

Huckabee~~ X fat man in the circus, lost 125 lbs to RUN.

John the $400 hair cut Kid.

Everyone of these people are tatal kooks that never worked a day in their lives

[Rich]

Chuck,

I'm registered NPA as well. I agree the way our vote is set up is to keep these 2 parties in power. There is a solution though and that's BALANCED PLURALITY VOTING.

Some math geek came up with it and it allows us to vote for who we want and also allows us to vote against who we really don't want. You essentially rank your top 4 preferences and then eliminate candidates finally coming up with the candidate with the most plus votes.

[guy]

What I am trying to get across is the system is broken when we don't have choices that represent our own values.
we need a new party that we can associate with.
How about the "Harry Truman" party.

[Chuck]

After some deep thinking I've decided the main problem with politics is the people attracted to the profession.

You can't tell me the student body president your senior year of high school wasn't some bloviating bag of goose feathers.

I found out recently that our SBP was working in...POLITICS! Surprise! The same experiment applies to college. Think about the kids who were really good at getting elected to student senate positions, etc... Total rods.

[Mike]

The basic question is should Hilary step down and let Obama have the nomination.
YES!
She however is too proud to do this as she really believes she deserves the nomination because she put up with Bill and his follies for 8 years.
Aside from her negative campaign and elitis attitude there is nothing behind her (except Bill and who knows what he is doing). A prime example of this is the gas tax holiday that is the most rediculus pandering example of a typical politician.
I don't know for sure if Obama will be a good President but he sure has to be better then the other two.

[dave]

hillary need to keep on running if thats what she feels is best. she could still win -

[joeh]

It's sports, It's politics and every thing in between that we have to say should. This political process is fine just let it play out. In the interim why don't we talk about what we think is positive with who we like. You know the issues. As a group the voting public is one of the worst.

[Tim]

Although I think Obama is the nominee, I have no problem with Hillary finishing the race. In fact, if she drops out now, FOX, CNN, and Rush Nutbaugh would have nothing to report on.

That said; I’m going with Obama for the simple fact that he could do no worse than either Dubya Bush, or the two system nobs Clinton and McCain.

It’s not a lesser of the evils thing… it’s a lesser of the systemically trained thing.

[Tim]

Joeh,

I’ll start by stating that at least Obama had the courage to tell the truth about the Gas Tax break, which by the way, was supported by every economic expert in the Nation.

[Rich]

joeh,

this political process is terrible. why do you think we have so many apathetic voters? They're fed up with the system. Why can't these 2 parties solve any problems?

They rant on about the need to solve education, healthcare, etc every election. How is it that they seem to be getting worse and not better?

You may be in favor of a system that allows a tiny minority (Democratic and Republican parties) to control a $2.7 trillion budget and still charge up our credit cards to the tune of $9 trillion in debt but I'm not.

[Jeff]

First off - my disclaimer: I am a registered Republican...

Now - for those of you open-minded enough to keep reading after my disclaimer:

I am one of the growing numbers of disgruntled Republican voters who feel that the current administration has let us down...the elitist attitudes of the majority of the elected do not jive with the moderate masses...there is a mis-conception that all Republicans are narrow-minded, money-grubbing elitists who favor a "more for me, screw the poor" policies...that is just not true...

That being said, I no longer see the Democrats as being the liberal, "everything for everybody" pork-barrel spenders they are perceived to be by some - in fact, it is now very difficult to see any difference at all except during press conference sound bites and campaign (empty) promise speeches...

The trend I see is that both parties pander to the 30-second voter mentality - tell me what I need to know about the candidate in 30 seconds or less and I will make up my mind - which cries out about the general ignorance most people take with them to the polls...

I would never vote for another Clinton - on strictly moral grounds - her husband was a lying cheat, and she is a calculating manipulator - and I still have doubts about the Whitewater dealings and the "suicide" of Mr. Foster...

I have concerns about the age of McCain...I don't think he represents the thinking and values of the majority of the population - I have fewer questions about his integrity than Clinton's, but he has been a career politician, and I'm sure has many debts to special interest groups...

Obama is a wild-card...he is so new to the political scene, and yet has accomplished so much - on a personal level, not in actual legislation...is he really a "breath of fresh air" or he is very indebted to some powerful lobbyists for his meteoric rise? Only time will tell...but my suspicions are that he represents a very elitist group of voters that are using race to their advantage to woo the under-informed voting masses...

This election is like the story of the lady and the tiger - but with 3 doors to choose from - and I'm not sure which will truly be the lesser evil...

[KT]

I believe that Hillary should step down. I am voting for Obama in the fall. McCain is a cracked nut. It's unfortunate what happened to him in Vietnam, but he is not fit to be our President. This is a man who called everyone in Asia a bunch of **** Gooks.

I do not want Clinton - Bush - Clinton, we should not be creating political dynasties in this country. That is not what our founding fathers meant when they signed the constitution.

This is pretty entertaining:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=b-ymHdbd_tU&feature=related

[Reality]

The incumbent structure lives off voter apathy. What was once a process that favored a goal of “go out and get as many people to support and vote for you as you can” – has been bastardized into a goal of “make as many of those who would vote against you so apathetic, that they don’t even show up”.

If you’ll study the voter turn out, with regard to some of the issues that our politicians put back on the ballot over and over again under the opuses that “you voters didn’t not understand” – you will see what I’m talking about.

What is happening, by design I might add, is that candidates and/or issues are passing by way of an “underwhelming” show of opposition, not and “overwhelming” show of support. This is achieved by frustrating those who oppose a particular issue by putting it back on the ballot. Eventually, the NO voters simply give up.

For example:

1st vote (yes = 42K), (no = 58K)
2nd vote (yes = 42K), (no = 48K)
3rd vote (yes = 42K), (no = 38K)

Proclaim victory and support; spending the taxpayer’s money is approved! A perfect example of this was the Municipal Marina issue in Clearwater.

Then add the proclamations of “A 70% Landslide Victory for Mayor X, Y, or Z”

In reality, it was 70% of a 15% turn out, meaning only 9% of the total registered voters... hardly a mandate of the people.

Term Limits is the answer.

[Al]

The delegates, not the news media, should decide - at the convention, not sooner. She should hang in there.

[guy]

Two Things I like about Hillary
Show me a good loser and I'll show you a loser.
And,
I can't think of the other'

If she gets the VP Obama wont live amonth.

[Jacob]

I am for Hillary. I think she can win it all and be a great president.

[Coleen]

I'm one of those Dems who finds themselves in the untenuous position of really disliking Obama and McCain at the same time. If Obama gets the nod, I cannot imagine consciously voting for McCain. On the other hand, I really don't like Obama because his presidency would be a racial disaster. If you don't like him, it's because you're racist. Don't agree with him? Racist. His association with the minister screams that he is one of these bitter blacks who rales against whites, only he keeps it hidden - for now. Then he goes off and makes elitist comments about small-town people and their guns and God. I really think we have had enough elite rule for the last 4 years. What are we to do? Hillary, PLEASE hang in there.

[Don Mott]

The true power of government is in Congress and the Judicial system no matter who is President. The candidates always spout off impossible promises to win elections. But the reality is will Justice and Congress bow to the president as they have with the current President or stand up for what is right for America and the American people. By the way I am democrat and would vote for Hillary. I don't think she is necessarily the best choice but I think she is better than the other two.

[JR]

Obama and Clinton both have terrible views and plans about the economy and taxes. I think McCain is much better candidate in that area. He isn't an economic expert, but he's listening to the right people that are. Plus he's against all of the Ethanol nonsense and wants to try and stop the tariffs on imported Ethanol as well as all of the subsidies which are screwing up the food markets. Heck, if nothing else, sugar is cheaper and easier to make Ethanol out of instead of corn.

I love how if we are to meet Congress' ethanol mandate by the deadline, 110% of the entire current USA corn production would have to be turned into fuel. Insanity.

[gw]

I've never heard of a 100 yard dash ending at the 75th yard. Until Obama or Hillary gets to the magic number, it ain't over until it's over.

[rich h]

I'm sorry but I can't agree not voting for Hillary because of her husband's past discretions. Anyone remember JFK? For the last 6 years we've all lived in our own little bubbles and just watched the present administration destroy our constitution, the economy, our military, the budget, and our standing in the world to name just a few. Regardless of whom you decide to vote for they have one heck of a mess to try and clean up. I'd vote for Ronald McDonald if I thought he could do the job. People were in trouble and only by the grace of god can someone turn around all the damage that has been done.

[Linda W.]

My husband and I feel that Hillary would make a better president. We just don't get a good feeling from Obama. We have heard him say too many lies with a straight face and we honestly do not trust him. Our country is so behind times that most people can not see a woman president. This is sad. We will vote for McCain if Obama is the Dems choice.

[jorge]

If it's Obama, it's OK with me. I can't believe that any true Democrat would prefer McBush and 100 years more of Iraq and a do-nothing approach to the economy, if Hillary doesn't make it. We will get in line and support whomever the Demoncratic nominee is - wait and see.

At the time of our "primary", Obama was dead last of my choices of all the candidates, just behind Clinton. At this point, I can honestly say I prefer Clinton over Obama (believe me, a very low bar) and would vote for her should she gain the nomination.
I will not vote for Obama.
I will probably sit this one out, and I've never missed an election since 1980.
I agree with you, Howard, that Obama is a much, much weaker candidate. If, and it appears it will turn out to, shake out to Obama v McCain, the general will be McCain in a landslide.

2:43,

Your comment is very interesting, if not a tad “shilling”. Anyone who claims to be a Democrat, but proclaims – should Obama be the nominee – that they will not vote for him, will sit this one out, or will vote for McCain… is really in denial of the fact that they are simply a closet racist. At least have the integrity to admit that “race” is your problem.

Anyone that would assert that “more of the same” administration, that has nearly run us into the ground over the past 8-years, is better that some new perspective… shouldn’t be issued a Voter ID to begin with.

[Chuck]

Whoa 3:18, what a misguided piece of crap you are.

Are these the tactics you guys are going to resort to this year? If you don't vote for Obama you're a racist? Wow.

My favorite part is when you characterize Obama as "new perspective". This is a perfect description in my opinion - just as vague as his campaign.

YOU MUST AGREE WITH HIS POLITICS! IF YOU DON'T YOU'RE A RACIST!

What a joke.

[Jeff]

3:18 -

I think your assumption about "2:43" being a racist is a bit harsh - is everyone who won't cast a ballot for Hillary a misogynist?

As I stated earlier, this election leaves a lot of voters in the lurch - on both sides of the political rhetoric...I think you may be the one who has an issue with race, and quite possibly a gender bias as well...

Personally, I don't like Clinton - but I also have problems with McCain and the "good old boy politics" he may represent, and the almost entire "unknown" factor that is Obama - so don't jump to conclusions that someone who is undecided and would choose to not cast their vote for a candidate you are willing to support is any less informed or intelligent...

Very mature argument, Chuck. What time is PE over again? Good luck in the JV Basketball Team game tonight! Gooooo Knights!

[Chuck]

What the hell? I'm the one being immature? This is what's wrong with some of you people. A guy comes out and says total garbage - "if you're a Democrat and you don't vote for Obama then you're a racist" and you sit there and defend it.

CRAP.

Tough crowd... a lot of wide-rights!

I agree with you 3:18. Those who choose not to vote at all, are usually the loudest b*tchers about the system. I love the ones who rant and rant… then you ask them, “Well, who did you vote for?”… and they reply, “I didn’t vote”

… check please!

[3:18]

Lighten up, Chuck, before you pull a muscle or something. I made no such statement. Try to re-read my post... before you hit the crackpipe.

[Chuck]

Uhm that's not what 3:18 is saying. 3:18 is saying that if you're a registered Democrat and choose to vote for someone other than Obama, you're a racist.

Do you agree with that?

[Jeff]

Chuck - I agree with your intent, not necessarily your content...

You are absolutely right - not voting for Obama does NOT make someone a racist - nor does not voting for Hillary make you a sexist, and not voting for McCain does NOT make you an ageist...

It just means you are actually paying attention...

[Chuck]

"Anyone who claims to be a Democrat, but proclaims – should Obama be the nominee – that they will not vote for him, will sit this one out, or will vote for McCain… is really in denial of the fact that they are simply a closet racist. At least have the integrity to admit that “race” is your problem."

You're obviously in denial that you are a liar. The statement above cannot be interpreted any other way.

[Chuck]

Extremist groups whine when no one takes them seriously. The type of gross unapologetic hyperbole (lies) I've seen here is the best reason I've ever seen to simply write them off as lunatics.

The most effective campaign weapon the Republicans have to use against the Democrats… are the Democrats themselves. All the R’s have to do is sit back and watch the D’s self-destruct.

And the plan seems to be working just fine.

“I’m voting Democrat, dammit!… just so long as our candidate is the one ‘I’ like.”

You will find this phenomenon at the root of most every D loss, and R win.

… pathetic

[3:18]

It most certainly can, Chuck… it just takes a little less paranoia, passive-aggressive guilt and emotion… and a tad more intellect. Try reading it again… S L O W L Y… and take a few minutes to reflect on its deeper meaning.

[Howard Troxler]

Howard here, appreciating all the comments, except I would just as soon, if you don't mind, that we not refer to each other directly as pieces of crap, although I suppose if you wanted to say someone's ideas were idiotic, moronic, lacking of the sense that God imparted to an amoeba, or something that you might see in Bizarro World (do you even REMEMBER Bizarro World?), at least it would not be, you know, quite so ad hominem, or as Jackie Gleason might put it, ad hominem, hominem, hominen.

Love,
Howard

[Howard Troxler]

But I agree with the rejection of the "agree with Obama or else you're a racist" characterization, along with the "you're trying to keep women down if you're for Obama" characterization.

[Ellie]

Much as the Hillary-haters would love for her to quit, it would be a betrayal of her supporters for her to quit. What if she quit, and then Obama became unable to proceed? The election goes to McCain? Dem's offer up their own chosen candidate? If folks think the process is too involved (which it is), then they should petition the party to change it. Seems to me to be the outcome Rep's had in mind when they moved the dates of the primaries. Very, very dirty politics. The same people mouthing support for vets forget why hundreds of thousands who have served this country have died - for MY RIGHT TO VOTE! Rep's are deathly afraid of HRC and would do anything to keep her from office.

[3:18]

Dang... even Howard pulled a wide-right. It must be me. Sorry all.

[H, Berk]

If obama, runs against McCain, McCain will become our president.
Obama is lacking the experience, what exactly is his claim to fame?, aside from his speeches, he shows nothing. Why the people flock to him is beyond me.
As far as Hillary goes, it's not over till the fat lady sings, and I'm not singing.

[Ellie]

I agree with Howard - Obama will be toast by the second day that he is up against McCain. All the hyperbole about his coming from nowhere, giving a great speech, Pres. HLR, ... he hasn't accomplished anything special, other than getting good grades at Harvard (not as good as the esteemed GWB). He is a Dem from Chicago, got to Illinois Senate by getting all oponents off the ballot (legally), and he is going to "change" Washington? Suspend both houses of Congress? Fire the Supremes? He is a great legal scholar, but never published while at HLR and "borrowed" without attribution? Borrowed from the writings of the minister he didn't follow or know that well? Please! He is tentative and wishy-washy unless he is reading a script. Jimmy "Small Government" Carter was a media invention; so is Obama.

[Pat]

The so called "brilliant woman" who failed her bar exam and has no significant achievements, has always hitched her wagon to men to be "successful.' Time to tell this delusional, over ambitious, mediocre woman to go home!!!!!

[Dee]

Ellie: You need to get a real female role model, Hillary would still be a nobody without Bill.

[John]

I remember hearing about that. Hillary failed the New York or Illinois Bar exam, so followed Bill to Arkansas for cover. The press keeps this pretty quiet.

[Gia]

Chelsea is the only person in that family with any class, and not much of it, at that.

[Dr_Dug]

Honestly......I think all the Candidates are terrible!!! Can't we have more choices?

I am a life long democrat who sincerely hopes I will not be "forced" to vote for Obama just for the sake of punching the "D".
I have a serious problem with being called a racist because of that statement. I have voted for many non-white candidates, IF and only IF I felt they were the best qualified for the job.
I do not want to vote for Obama. He does a lot of speechifying about what's WRONG and why we need CHANGE but I have yet to hear him offer any solutions. He positively stunk up the room during all the debates (and I have a friend who is such a die-hard Obama supporter she calls herself "Obama Girl" who said that out loud long before I did.) When he wasn't stuttering or "ummm"ing he was just saying, "I agree with Hillary" or "What John says is right". Hello? Ideas? New? Hope?
Not there. Empty suit.
He appears to have never met a job he didn't quit and left unfinished. All his great work and the bills his supporters tout as "experience" in IL were actually writting by a kingmaker who wanted to, and this is on record, "Make me a US Senator". He was just the window dressing.
Personally, I find him smug and yes, elitist. He makes sly, "clever" comments then brings out the "I never meant that, you're *projecting*! line of BS (witness the reference to Sen Clinton's "claws come out" when she's "feeling down")
But all that matters for nothing. I don't want to vote for him because I'm racist, right?
Yeah, I might just sit this one out. You know what I am? TIRED. Are these three really the BEST we could come up with?

[Newt G.]

Wow, it really scares you people to think we might actually have a black President. I’m white, I’m Republican, and I’m voting for Obama. You folks need to search out your inner voice, and tell it to get a life!

Face it folks; Obama is our next POTUS… and it’s ok, really… its gonna be ok.

[Howard Troxler]

No, I wasn't applying all those terms to a previous argument, but merely as generic examples of how to criticize ideas without attacking people.... :)

[Justin Elza]

This may make me an idiot (actually, birth made me that I guess) but, again, I would like to have someone other than a Clinton or a Bush in office for a change. So I will vote accordingly.

"Us do opposite of all Earthly things! Us hate beauty! Us love ugliness! Is big crime to make anything perfect on Bizarro World!"

Just for you, Howard. :)

[guy]

Guess you'll think twice before you broach this suject again Howard. LOL

I love you all!

To the earlier posts about voting choices. At one time most laws were administered locally. You would vote the person "in" you felt would up hold your moral values. The local laws would reflect the values of the people. Since the '60s, the power shifted to DC because of the anti discrimination laws. When we lost our right to discriminate we lost all our rights.

[Concerned]

Lets look at some facts, based on Obamas SHORT two year record in Congress, he was voted the most LIBRAL Senator by the US Chamber of Congress.

Obama is in favor of a windfall profit tax for the oil companies. Does anyone remember the last time there were windfall profil taxes on oil companies? Domestic production dropped and there were MASSIVE shortages. If oil companies profit margin is only 8% and you tax the highest taxed industry EVEN higher, where is the money for exploration? Won't they just pass it to comsumers anyway?

Obama is against NAFTA and says he would eliminate it. Canada supplies the US with more oil than the Saudis, that's a good idea to make them mad. Besides, NAFTA removed a 3% tariff on goods being EXPORTED TO Mexico. How does removing a tariff on goods going to another country cost the US jobs? Someone please explain that to me. Exports have INCREASED to NAFTA countries, again, someone explain to me how this has cost the US jobs?

[get-smart]

Concerned. Because US companies set up factories in Mexico and manufacture the same products with Mexican labor. Import them back into our country at lower cost than making them here. In other word an American lost their job to a Mexican. The same is true with China. If you don't think our jobs are being exported you better read up on it. This week alone Starkist fish is moving its plant to the Filipines. That's 5200 jobs!

[Justin Elza]

Concerned, you are certainly entitled to your opinion, but as far as the oil companies go, you're...um...how should I say?

Wrong.

Here, read this:

http://www.usnews.com/articles/business/economy/2008/02/01/exxons-profits-measuring-a-record-windfall.html

[Concerned]

um... Justin, acording to that article, oil companies profits were 7.6% not 8%, so you are right, I was wrong. Even that bias article admits "Domestic oil production fell and foreign oil dependence grew during the windfall tax years" That just confirms what I posted. How was I wrong except by UNDERSTATING oil companies profit margin?
Exxon also paid 30 billion dollars in tax while making 40 billion dollars profit making them the highest taxed company in US history. The highest percentage too. As long as we are passing along links, read this http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/24411755/
It is a little more current and no one would mistake MSNBC to be Conservetive or pro Republican.

[Chris Jenkins]

Have to side with Concerned, here, Justin. The "record breaking profits" have nothing to do with the oil companies themselves, as their margin has remained consistent for decades. Increased demand equals increased sales, which equals increased profit, and they have changed nothing in that process.

Their record profits have everything to do with how much crude we suck down a year. The "blame", if any is to be placed, is parked in our own driveways.

[Concerned]

Get-Smart, what does that have to do with NAFTA? Don't you think US companies would set up companies overseas WITHOUT a free trade agreement? It has nothing to do with NAFTA. Do you even know what NAFTA does? It removed a 3% tarrif on goods going to Mexico, goods made IN our country.
Isn't the starfish cannery in Samoa? It was out sourced to begin with. Read this
http://www.capmag.com/article.asp?ID=4959

[Concerned]

Get-smart, since you obviously know NOTHING about NAFTA, here is an article that might educate you. It uses FACTS and statistics, not scare tatics about how America is losing jobs if we participate in free trade.

http://www.post-gazette.com/pg/08063/862002-35.stm

[get-smart]

Well Concerned - I am glad you feel that way. The only thing I can suggest is when you are purchasing something look at the country of origin. At one time, in my life time 90% of the cars on the road were American Made. 100% of the TV's were American made. 70% + of radios were American made. Many manufacturing jobs. In Pinellas we had Honeywell/Sperry. They supported dozens of local private machine shops. All these jobs are gone. This country is spinning down into third world status. Goldman Sachs is driving the price of oil to $200/ bbl out of pure greed. At one time we had retirees move to Florida on a GM or Ford pension. Those jobs are all gone the real defined pensions are replaced with 401k. It is a very sad state of affairs. Oh! It is American Samoa and congress oversees the territory.

[Justin Elza]

Sorry, I should have been more specific. I meant Obama's position on taxing oil companies. You stated he was in favor of the windfall tax. As far as I have heard, he is not.

"Hillary Clinton talks windfall profits tax; Barack Obama says repeal the tax breaks oil already enjoys."

[Justin Elza]

By the way, do any of you ever like to drink beer and talk about this stuff?

[Chuck]

I'll drink a beer and talk about anything. I'll drink 10 beers and talk about religion.

Howard -

I'm sorry if you don't appreciate me calling that guy "3:18" a piece of crap. My mistake.

Here's the thing...

He's responded several times claiming that I've misread his post. Am I really misreading the post? Someone help me out. Everything seemed pretty clear to me and he seemed to be saying that if you're a registered Democrat and you have the gall to vote for McCain in a McCain v. Obama election, you're a racist.

I'm sorry man but this is complete garbage. Don't excuse this kind of behavior.

How can you be a racist. He is half white & half black. So you can think of him as a light skin black or a dark skin white. It follows that if you are white and you don't vote for him, you are not voting for a dark skin white man. See!

[Concerned]

Get-smart, I appreciate your concern for American jobs, I share the same concern, yet losing jobs overseas has NOTHING to do with NAFTA. If anything, REMOVING tarrifs from goods going overseas helps the US and creates jobs as stastics show in the link I provided to you. Removing tax breaks from companies that outsource would penalize companies that outsource and be a better solution than repealing NAFTA. Keep in mind our REAL competetion is in Europe and Japan, not the ULTRA low wage manufacturing jobs in China and Veitnam. We caould NEVER compete with those low wage jobs unless we paid our workers less than a dollar an hour. Do you want your children working in a factory making less than a dollar a hour? If you don't like Chinese goods, don't buy them, that is the beauty of free markets. You do have a choice.

[Concerned]

Justin, Obama proposed a windfall profit tax on oil priced over $80 a barrel.

http://afp.google.com/article/ALeqM5gqWhoBksx6mCNf_jCCUPnoojMlww

History shows us that this a terrible idea as the record prices oil just suprassed come from the days of the last windfall profit tax(adjusted for inflation)
Not only that, but oil companies only controll less than 10% of the worlds reserves and have to drill on foreign lands having to negotiate and pay the foreign governments where the oil is found. The higher oil goes, most of these complicated agreements stipulate that these oil companies are entitled to less oil. If they have to pay a tax, they will just buy less oil resulting in shortages. The last time we had the windfall profit tax, western oil companies controlled more reserves so the effects of the tax will be greater this time.
The US oil companies also have absolutly NO conroll over world commodity market prices and the investors driving these prices through the roof. Although oil is much higher than last year, Exxon's margin is shrinking. After last weeks earnings were released, Exxons stock price fell because earnings DISSAPOINTED investors.
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/24403198/

[Justin Elza]

I stand corrected.

That said, I have no sympathy for Oil Companies. Greedy, petroleum dependency exploiting bastards.

That said, I have no sympathy for those dependent on oil. SUV driving, selfish bastards.

I personally fill up my tank maybe once every two weeks. Mostly walk and bike everywhere.

[Concerned]

Justin, I understand where you are coming from, don't mistake my knowledge of oil companies for advocacy, I was a commodities trader in another life and understand how the system works. That said, we as a nation have gotten ourselves into this mess with energy. Unfortunatly, oil is a neccessary evil as our nation and economy revolves around it. From the transportation of goods, to getting ourselves to work and everything in between. Most of the nation lacks reliable public transportation, we have designed our communities with suburbs miles from the workplace and frequently travel with one to a vehicle.
Don't get me started on SUVs, most don't need them even if they can afford them and the gas they devour.
Right now, most of the oil companies are OVERSTATING their reserves for the benefit of their stock price, Exxon was fined recently for doing just that and is trying to get the SEC to change how reserves are counted. We will be out of oil sooner than most people think.

[female voter]

"The so called "brilliant woman" who failed her bar exam and has no significant achievements, has always hitched her wagon to men to be "successful.' Time to tell this delusional, over ambitious, mediocre woman to go home!!!!!"

pat: that's the most disgustingly sexist comment of the bunch. is it so wrong for a woman to be ambitious? you need to take a hard look in the mirror, bucko, and stay the H*** away from the polls. people like you make me sick. you're as bad as a racist.

[guy]

I am that voter that is racist.
This is not a good time for a "Barack Hussein Obama",
Or another Clinton AKA Janet Reno's USS Cole investigation aide.

[guy]

By the way Hillary, are you going to return all that stuff you stole from the Whitehouse???

[Howard Troxler]

Well, that was 24 hours of fun.

Chuck, sorry, I wasn't takin' sides against you, just referrin' to the single P.O.C. remark.

In my experience the best "referee" is the transcript of the exchange itself.

Now, why am I commenting here when the Angels are coming up to bat in the top of the 9th with the Rays holding a 2-0 lead? 'Scuse me...