Looks nice. where's the warranty?

Okay, now we've seen the sales pitch on how to pay for a new stadium for the Tampa Bay Rays. The overall deal looks interesting and possible, but for me, the key question is still not... quite... locked down.

The key question is:

Are the taxpayers guaranteed to cover their share of the cost of a new stadium by selling off Tropicana Field to developers, and then taxing what gets built there?

What the Rays want in this deal is for county and city taxpayers to keep right on making annual payments, even after Tropicana Field is paid off.

We'd be making the same "car payments," and the pitch is that we'd be getting a new and better "car."

Here is the other half of the deal that is supposed to make it all work. In theory, if we sell off the 85-acre site of Tropicana Field to developers, and get it back on the tax rolls, we'll end up collecting more money than we're paying.

In fact, on Thursday, team officials predicted that even if developers built only HALF of what they have proposed for the Tropicana Field site, the public would already be collecting enough in property taxes.

This is music to my ears. Well, actually, it WOULD be music to my ears, if it were language actually in a contract somewhere. Right now, it's just a little hum.

See, everybody keeps saying that the developer can't and won't guarantee a certain level of property taxes. And the Rays certainly can't guarantee it either. The only "guaranteed" part of this deal is that the taxpayers would be on the hook.

So we're just going to have to proceed on faith, according to these folks. After all, I keep hearing, no developer would simply buy a big piece of land like this and just do NOTHING, would they? (Insert a long, sarcastic pause here.)

No guarantee, no stadium. Just one guy's opinion.

* * * * * *

There's a lot of spin and rhetoric and different yardsticks being used, but it seems to me the hard dollars work out this way, again using present-day totals:

* Team owners: $150-million

* Taxpayers: $245-million ($70-million Trop sale, and $175-million in  annual payments).

* Parking and other side deals: the remaining $55-million.

For the Rays to keep their original promise that no "new" tax dollars will be involved, the Tropicana redevelopment has to work, so that the taxpayers more than get their money back. Otherwise, we're simply talking about extending the taxpayers' annual payments for 25 or 30 years beyond the time they would have been finished -- and that's certainly a "new" tax.

Times photo of Rays executives Matt Silverman and Michael Kalt | Edmund D. Fountain

Comments

FloriDUH! One more example of corporate welfare.

[Alex]

A month ago, they were saying the Trop site was worth $150 million...

$245 million in taxpayer subsidy means $10,000 per St. Petersburg resident.

and that doesn't include cost overruns!

[Jim]

Alex, the team guaranteed that overruns would be covered by them, so long as they oversaw the project.

[Ron]

No, No, No, No, No!!!

[John]

Mr Spicoli, how did you come up with the $55 million dollar figure for parking revenues? "I don't know"

Speaks volumes....

[Doug]

Just like the tax we paid to finance RayJay, this is another attempt to use taxpayer money to finance a private business venture. This is flat wrong.

If the result is the team leaves if they don't get tax dollars; good riddance!

[Ron]

55 Million in parking revenues from a ballpark with no parking. That's creative financing.

Obviously, this is why there original plan included 60 Million in Sales Tax rebates from the State.

[Kenneth]

Even if it didn't involve public funding, why do we want to change an otherwise pleasant downtown? Right now I can get downtown for dinner almost any night of the week without any major traffic or parking problems. Why would we want to change that?

Alex, you weren't a math major, were you? It comes out to $1000/resident.

[K]

As I suspected, this 'shell game' that no "new" taxes would be used is merely a cover for taking tax money already collected - Did they happen to mention any specifics about naming rights on the new stadium and who gets that $$$$$? Also, how can you guarantee parking revenue when you can't anyone to come to the games??? CITY COUNCIL - PLEASE DO NOT ADD THIS TO THE REFERENDUM!!! VOTE NO!!!!!

[Kris]

Bad idea especially in the lightning capital of the world. I enjoy sitting in the AC watching a game while it's storming outside.

No additional parking will make for a mess downtown especially on day games, and 1st friday. I work downtown, and could only imagine an extra 5,000 cars swarming the area while I'm trying to go home.

Yes, the idea of a water front ball park is sexy, but at what costs?

Thanks

[Houston]

Went past the Trop last night and saw neither a full stadium nor a full parking lot. Where is that revenue?

[Houston]

Went past the Trop last night during a Yankee game and saw neither a full stadium nor a full parking lot. Where is that revenue?

[Jorge]

Let's summarize, shall we?

$65 million currently offered for the Trop property that has a $100+ million debt? Plus demolition costs, plus environmental studies/clean up costs...but the Rays say "that'll take care of itself", somehow, they just don't know how....

Extending the $11-13 million in TAXPAYER MONEY used to payoff the Trop mortgage, (tourists are taxpayers too and that's OUR $$, not the Rays) not just past the payoff date on the Trop, but for the length of the Rays lease (30+ years)???? What happened to "no new taxpayer $$"???

$150.00 million up front by the Rays is NOT cash $$, it's simply their rent, paid in advance. So in essence, they are risking little to nothing because they know they can leave town if it doesn't work out for them.

$55 million in "parking revenues" from unknown sources, with no solid agreements from any downtown parking lot owner (including the city) about where they would generate this $$...

NO NO NO...council members take note, your political futures are on the line with this one. Simply tell them "no thank you", and walk away now.

[kris]

Well said Jorge!

[Don Mott]

Nothing new and or guaranteed was presented. Same old projections with no new facts to sustantiate them. Still no answers on the environmental impact from either site. No mention of who pays the cost of realigning Bayshore. No evidence the parking problems have been worked out, yet they can predict $55 million in parking revenue.They still have not met with the county after how long? IMO todays meeting was a total waste of time. Just more pie in the sky predictions.

[Chris]

Instead of driving by the Trop or whining about "corporate welfare", why weren't you inside the Trop supporting OUR first place team.

People complain that the Rays can't put a winning team on the field and don't support them when they do.

A waterfront park will have a positive economic impact downtown and give us a ballpark to be proud of.

This "green bench" syndrome we have is what will keep us from progressing as a community.

[John]

Kalt said it himself, they likely will not even have the results from environmental studies until.....NEXT SUMMER!!!! So again I ask how in the HELL can they request that this be put on the ballot this year, before we have ALL the info needed to make an INFORMED DECISION?? No referendum, no more nonsense, and NO NEW STADIUM!

[Jorge]

Chris 4:45pm said:
"People complain that the Rays can't put a winning team on the field and don't support them when they do.

A waterfront park will have a positive economic impact downtown and give us a ballpark to be proud of."

Which side of your mouth do you actually believe? If your 1st statement is true that nobody supports the team, even when they're winning, than how can you support your 2nd statement? You actually think just slapping a giant building on our waterfront will magically change everything?

Hypocrisy lives!!!

[Ruby]

NO! NO! NO! Hey here's a thought, lets pay off what we have before we buy something "new"...I dont want MY waterfront, (yes, I am one of the few natives still left) to be ruined by a baseball park. Do you morons have any idea how hot its going to be in the summer months, not to mention the rain and lighting....I could go on and on...but I think you get the point!

[John Jung]

I'll support building a new stadium on the site of Al Lang stadium if the money does not come from our property taxes.

The new taxes generated by the redevelopment of the Trop would more than offset the new stadium debt owed by the city-county. We get more jobs, one brand new modern stadium and much needed redevelopment near the Trop.

LET'S BUILD A STADIUM!

[kathleen ford]

Liar, Liar, pants on fire!!!!!!! No new taxes-EXCEPT THOSE NEW TAXES IN 2017 and all the rest of City revenues for new streets, lights, sidewalks, parking gargages, landscaping, pipes, police, fire, demolition costs of TWO stadiums, remediation, debt service, operating costs (wait we already paid the Rays $4.2 million up front in the first two years for managing the Trop until 2027) What about the City's expected $10+ million in Trop naming rights?

[Gomes is Stinky Sometimes]

Ruby how come the golf courses and amusement parks are still packed in the summer if its so unbearable?

[Paul]

Besides the money, I don't want a massively out of place stadium blighting our beautiful waterfront. You think that German council member was here today offering a mutual tourism arrangement because of a future waterfront ballpark? Hell no! He was here because we are an incredible city, believe it or not, without a waterfront ballpark.

So Kalt and NYC crew, go run some more numbers and make what you already have, work. You bought it. You think it needs fixin? Then YOU FIX THE DAMM THING! Not me. I don't even watch your 'product' on the field.

Kalt, what are your 1 minute mile times over ohhh, say a 1/2 marathon? You got sport in you? or are you a stuffed shirt out of shape NYC Powerpoint cowgirl? yeah... i challenge you. And leave your calculator on your messy desk.

[Houston]

Chris,
Were I interested in the game, I could not afford the ticket. Why should I support the Rays?? Like Miami, a "Progressive" Community should line the waterfront with large buildings?

[Don Mott]

Kathleen, you are right on. The Rays have a different definition of new taxes than us mere mortals I suppose.

[JB]

These Owners have the $$$ to pay for the stadium out of their own Pockets. The ONLY REASON they have inked these contracts this year is because they want you the PUBLIC to support the New Stadium.. do not be fooled by these NEW YORKERS!!!

[Chris]

Wow....

Remember...no matter which side you are on, everybody pays. There is no free ride.

We all want winners, but no one is willing to support them. We all want services (fire, police, parks, libraries) and, thanks to Amendment 1, no support.

Abolish taxes. Better yet abolish government. We can all fend for ourselves. Survival of the fittest. Now that's progressive.

[Don Mott]

Mr Jung, I guess you haven't been following the news. The Rays say they will not use "new taxes" to fund the project.

[Harold]

I suggest the Rays pay their own mortgage as most citizens do. As a responsible member of society I pay my own mortgage. By doing this, I also pay my own taxes. In a responsible city this money is invested back into my own community. Sadly, this is no longer the case. We have a moral and finanicial crisis in our state. We have a 2% budget cut for Pinellas schools and possibly the closing of 10 schools, Medicaid cuts, relaxed staffing ratios at nursing homes already understaffed, and other social programs which would benefit our communities in the long term. Instead we build more prisons. 25% of the world's prison population is in America. Our state lawmakers commend themselves for these budget cuts. I ask them out of 12 billions tax exemptions how many were eliminated for Chartered boats, free electricity for manufacturing, free boiler fuel, High school and college stadium skyboxes, etc. Finally, Rick Baker and our city council have refused to be honest with us about this stadium. This shows such a lack of respect for the citizen who works to support his or her family and community. Our tax dollars need to be put back onto our beautiful city, not in the hands of the Rays and a select few.

[Dr_Dug]

Here's an idea! Why doesn't the city build me a new 8000 sq.ft. home, pay 66% of the cost...and then when taxes come due they'll make the revenue and money back....
Better yet...Instead of millionaire owners wanting money for a ballpark for the millionaire players, why don't they ask those players if they would give up 20% of thier salary for a few years towards the ballpark and thier "new office". Lets see how many players would stick around for that Scam!!

[Gomes is Stinky Sometimes]

JB.. you make is sound like its a bad thing that the new owners said they were going to put a good team on the field, and then just did that... I know everyone is snakebitten from the previous deal but its not as if the new owners have done anything other than exactly what they said they would do.. And another thing.. I'm annoyed by people from new york as much as the next person.. but most everyone here has come from somewhere else.. to put NEW YORKERS in capital letters like its an evil thing is amusing. P.S... I'm from PENNSYLVANIA... o no!!!!!!

[Dr_Dug]

Gomes is Stinky Sometimes...your voice doesn't count! You said it yourself "I'm from PENNSYLVANIA... o no!!!!!!"
I'm from Florida and a St.Pete Resident for 43 years...so understand this...WE DON'T WANT A WATERFRONT STADIUM!
The people WHO LIVE HERE understand better than the Owners that flew in a few years ago. The streets around the waterfront are RESIDENTIAL and outdated, and there's not enough parking spaces. And if our city has any money to invest...then they should use it to help with the "cuts" thier so proud of...

[Gomes is Stinky Sometimes]

Easy Dr_Dug I MOVED HERE 5 YEARS AGO! My vote does count AS MUCH AS YOURS DOES.. You don't get 43 votes for the amount of time you spent here and since I am YOUNGER AND IN THE DEMOGRAPHIC THAT SPENDS THE MOST MONEY DOWNTOWN my voice should count quite a bit. I am also a HOME OWNER. That enough rotation between lower case and CAPS FOR YOU?

[Dr_Dug]

Gomes is Stinky Sometimes..DEMOGRAPHIC THAT SPENDS THE MOST MONEY DOWNTOWN? I retired 2 years ago and own several homes downtown. "DEMOGRAPHIC THAT SPENDS THE MOST MONEY DOWNTOWN"...thats a joke...or a joint in your hand...
Regarding your 5 years....please....your a rookie in most leagues. But since you haven't been around long enough to understand or even PAY (nice caps) or vote...again...your voice means nothing. If you like the idea so much..then you can pay my portion.

[Gomes is Stinky Sometimes]

Umm.. yea.. I don't really think you can argue that young professionals put less money back into the downtown scene than retirees that "own several houses" (I'd like to own a few houses one day but hopefully I won't be a pompous A*S that brags about it on message boards). When I'm downtown most times I see more people my age than I see "retirees that own multiple houses". I appreciate how you alluded to how I must be using drugs since I'm young.. did you see that on some 20/20 special? The really funny thing is.. since you have owned for a while.. I probably pay WAY more taxes than you do.. Since the convoluvted way we do taxes (which is another story) has me paying way more taxes than the retired person next door, whose house is worth as much as mine and doesn't put any money back into the economy. I guess when it comes down to it though, I'm wasting my time arguing with a person who actually believes that since they have multiple houses their vote counts more than anyone elses.. My voice means nothing? I've been paying your portion in taxes for 3 years now.. and I'm paying into your social security now.. You're welcome. Also, when am I allowed to vote here? According to you 5 years isn't long enough.. does that mean previous elections should be revoted? Is it the 40 year mark before you can vote? please let me know.

[Houston]

You boys done ? Back to Topic ?

[Gomes is Stinky Sometimes]

Sure Houston.. What do you think happens if they don't get their 55m from the parking.. do you think the Rays foot the bill for that? Also.. I know that we would be on the hook if the redevelopment was a disaster, but wouldn't someone who paid 70m from it do everything they could to make it work? Also.. can you believe what a d-bag Dr.Dug is.. honestly.. my voice doesn't count because I've only been here 5 years?

[Dr_Dug]

Gomes is Stinky Sometimes...again your age shows!(notice the caps) I'm retired....not old fool. And if your eye sight was 20/20 you'd notice that! I'm 43. And wasn't it your pompous A*S that stated "I am YOUNGER AND IN THE DEMOGRAPHIC THAT SPENDS THE MOST MONEY DOWNTOWN."
Oh Yea....hahahahaha Your paying my Social Security? I don't collect Social Security...so you must be confusing me with your drug dealer again. Or you must be a comic because.....(You've been paying MY portion in taxes for 3 years now)..nice try. You couldn't pay my tax bill if you tried. And since we're at it, you weren't here when it started, placed no vote on the Trop, and don't understand the areas economics(Its not just a playground for the young and foolish) Your voice menans nothing and you know it.You simply don't pay sh*t in taxes, and if you wish to pay more...(The tax on liquor doesn't count)move over here to Snell Isle and talk your kindergarten crap to these folks. You see, every time you try to sound clever....your stupidity starts to scream.

One more....having multiple houses does give me more power..somthing you'll see when you start making more than 10.00/hr. MONEY IS POWER..kiddie!!

[Hell Raiser]

Dr_Dug is funny. But he has a point. People who moved here recently have no clue as to the areas economics or history. I've lived here for 20 years and have seen our City make LOTS of mistakes. When the Trop was first opened, alot of promises were made....and broken. The people who suffered were the residents that lived here, not the ones planning on moving here after highschool. There's nothing wrong with the Trop except it doesn't have a water view..and for 450+ million dollars, it doesn't need one. What's wrong with making the waterfront a public park for everyone to enjoy?

[Gomes is Stinky Sometimes]

Dr. Dug thats awesome Snell Isle you're so cool and interestZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZz

[Gomes is Stinky Sometimes]

Hell if there's one thing we have enough of.. isn't it waterfront public parks? Also.. if you talk about the terrible mistakes and refer to the top you can't then talk about how awesome it is and we don't need anything better.

[Dr_Dug]

See what happens when your on drugs little girl! hahahahaha
Shouldn't you be studying for some type of drug test? hahahha

[Paul]

Gomes, no, we don't have enough waterfront parks. The original plan back in the 1920's, was, buy all the waterfront property, donate it to the city and tear down the shamlbes and shantys on it so the public would always have access to the waterfront and the City would have an impressive park system for anyone and everyone to use. That parkland has slowly, ever so slowly been dwindling. It really did used to be quite a bit more. And guess who bought the land and gave it to the city? Developers. I know, hard to believe. We need to keep the parks and yes, add to them as we can. We, the citizens, asked Council to do this and Council said yes, a few times actually, then came up with a 'glitch ordinance' that somehow made them all dumber than they really are... and now we are where we are and have to do all this vote and arguing again. Welcome to St Pete, by the way. Its a nice place.

[Chris]

I too, am a lifelong resident. The problem with more parks, like other city services, is that no one wants to pay for them either.

Nobody rides for free. Everybody pays.

[Zach]

Personally, I would bet that the majority of you who oppose building a new stadium also voted to save Albert Whitted Airport. That being a facility that is used by very few "upper class" citizens to park their toy planes. Guess who foots the bill to keep the airport running, we do, certainly not the 200 people who keep their airplanes there. You all should have voted against this upper class playground 4 years ago and we would have plenty of room for the stadium and parking right there. A baseball stadium is where 35,000 fans can enjoy a game for relativley cheap, not an airport that we pay for very few people to use. Think about it!

As a lifelong Pinellas County and St. Pete resident, I support a new ballpark and hope that it gets built. Here is a little fact:

New Raymond James Stadium for Bucs: 2003 Lombardi Trophy + constant sellouts

New Ice Palace (St. Pete Times Forum) for the Lightning:
2004 Stanley Cup + constant sellouts

New stadium for Rays: possible world championship and sellouts????

Not only does our area need to show some support for our hometown baseball team, we need to see the benefit a new stadium would have on our waterfront. There are additional tax revenues, the possibility of hosting the All Star game (lots of out of town fans + media attention) and more national showcasing of our wonderful City which would mean additional tourism. I imagine any business owner downtown loves the idea of a new stadium since this would add more business for them.

We unfortunately are an area of bandwagon fans and I strongly believe that a new stadium along with winning (as the Rays currently are doing a lot of) will broaden the fan base, heck, hopefully convert some of the annoying Yankme and Red Sux fans into hometown team fans. It seems that all sporting events have become a "Status" competition for people to show up at, rather than people who simply love the events and will show support for the local teams. So let's build a new stadium and sell it out.

To all the people who are complaining about the taxes, you should have torn down Albert Whitted, and not voted for Ammendment 1 this past spring, which is now screwing our our state and saving each of you $20 per month.

[Hell Raiser]

The Trop is just fine! It's just the manner in which it came about. Since you admit you haven't been here long...sorta senseless to continue the history lesson with you. According to your own argument, if yours is valid, the Trop is no good and a new one is needed..then why did they spend 65 million recently to upgrade it? You may be a little TOO young to understand, but there's more politics and money involved than simply building a 450+ million ball field.

[Dr_Dug]

Zach....your an assclown. The Trop has had many sellouts(NCAA,BASEBALL,Football..) The reason it doesn't sell out for the Rays is because they historically have been horrible; including the owners. We support our team, we just want them to stop taking our money.If they want a new stadium, pay for it. If not, HONOR the contract they signed at the TROP and play ball!!!

[Watching]

Ditto, Dr_Dug, Ditto

[Zach]

Dr Dug, it is great to see you act your age of 43 years. I understand that the Trop has had many sellouts, I have been a part of them. Yes, they have been historically horrible, but they are getting better and will continue to do so. If you are so angry at the owners wanting a new ballpark, please sell all your homes and move away. I personally do not want the generation above me in this area to consist of people like you.

[Paul]

Zach, I don't own a plane and I don't go to ballgames. Yet, I don't want a stadium on our waterfront. They got 80 or so acres over there right by the highways (plural), with a sign you can see right on the highways... and everything is all set to play ball there for many years to come. they want a new stadium? sure, no problemo'. They have plenty of land and plenty of parking and don't need to move it over to the 'cool part of town' to try to increase its value and potentially blight our beautiful, gorgeous, astounding downtown and waterfront with a Walmart baseball field. I propose they do whatever the heck it is they want on the existing Trop site and whip up some fancy powerpoint slides to make it all work out. They want to create a vibrant area, work on Central and 1st Ave north and South.. plennnnty of acreage and places to build any darn cheapo retail and more 'up scale' places we don't need more of. Problem solved. Now lets save Tierra Verde from our local greed monger Sembler.

[Dr_Dug]

Zach..the magic question has already been answered. The Trop has sold out before but the Rays can't do it. Doesn't that tell you something?
And why after raising a family, owning several companies,donating time and money to charities, and of course owning homes and contributing to the downtown development...I should move cause YOU have nothing to contribute? By the way....love the way your generation wears thier pants and fills up the jails! GREAT JOB.
Your a great example of why the school system has failed over the years. Thanks for the contributions to society and where we are now! Good work assclown!

[Dr_Dug]

Paul...you make sense. Why can't the assclowns fiqure it out? Is it because they failed to make the grade?

[No Brainer]

The Rays say they will not use "new taxes" to fund the project...Yea Right. What they want to do is redirect current taxes towards the stadium so our city leaders(?) can initiate new taxes for something else..like schools,police and better roads. Show up in force May 22 at City Hall,sign up starts at 3:30, meeting starts at 6pm.** Remember that the last meeting at city hall was a joke. The Rays,trying to get slick,bused people in from outside the city to pump up thier numbers...but got caught. It's another example of what they are and why the No Waterfront people should show up. STAND UP ST PETE

[Houston]

A nice new paint job on The Trop would really make is stand out. How about a mural of all the Legends born of it's turf ?

[Houston]

Hey Zach,

What about all those dammed museums and art galleries. We coulda put condos there too.

[Steve]

So the Rays are going to raise $55,000,000 in parking revenues AFTER THEY PAY THE EXISTING parking lot owners for the right to park there in the first place. And after they pay for retrofiting all of these borrowed parking facilities to meet current parking codes and handicap codes. Give me a break!

When we, the citizens of this fair city are done paying for the Trop we will have paid around $300 to 323,000,000 million dollars. That does not count for the cost of the land which some have said is valued at around $100,000,000 million dollars.

And the Rays are going to let the developer of Tropicana Field pay us $70,000,000 for both the Trop and the land together. Are they kidding? We're supposed to take a $350,000,000 bath on this deal? Give me a break!

The Rays will never get a dredge and fill permit. Yet they are telling us it is no problem. Yeah, right.

The Trop is contaminated and will have to be cleaned up, paid by us. Again, the Rays are saying no problem. Who are they kidding?

The Rays say no new taxes, but any existing tax which is extended is a new tax. Who do they think they are kidding?

They will pay no rent for the new stadium. They will pay no rent to use 12.4 acres of prime waterfront property. Who are they kidding?

Right now the stadium sits on top of the sailing club because they have to fill one acre of Tampa Bay. This has been caused because the City made the Rays add an extra 62 feet in building width last month and the stadium is now further east. Demens Landing bridge is cut off from the South Yacht Basin, no flow through water action can accur to flush the central and south yacht basins and the sailing club can not put their boats in anymore because the stadium has cut them off. The Rays are gigantic idiots.

And lastly, what part of do not build on the waterfront parkland do the Rays not understand. I will fight this pathetic project, this pathetic attempt to rob us blind, this pathetic attempt to destroy our downtown and our waterfront to the bitter end.

Lawsuits, if necessary, bring em on. New politians to replace the ones who vote wrong, bring it on. Need a new mayor, OK with me. Need our own referendum to protect the waterfront - I say YES.

The fight against these corporate carpetbaggers has not even begun. St. Pete get ready to fight this.

[Don Mott]

Man there is a lot of unnecessary spit being thrown around here. Can't y'all just debate the issues rather than resorting to name calling and accusations? Howard, I plan to ask Aaron this as well, do you have any idea who is proposing to pay for the realignment of Bayshore?

[Sal]

Everytime i look at the comments from the same idiot St Pete residents who are against the stadium i laugh so hard. You want to vote against the stadium? Fine do it. Hopefully then Sternburg does the right thing and moves the team to Tampa and St Pete continues to be a suburb of Tampa envying what they could of had.

[Don Mott]

Thanks for the respect and decency there Sal. You make a fine impression of yourself and your objectives. Of course if you were real you would use your real name.

[Gomes is Stinky Sometimes]

Glad to see I didn't miss much in the last few hours.. Nothing talked about as far as anything that was mentioned today, but we did get to see what Dr Dug's, businessman, scholar, and philanthropists wikipedia page would look like if he wrote it himself.. Out of curiosity.. is no one here on the fence a little bit.. if there is one of you on the fence.. where do you believe your tipping point lies? If you respond and I don't get back to you, I'm probably passed out form doing drugs or just too poor to stay awake. And if you can't see it, its because my voice doesn't matter :)

[Mike]

Why build it, NO ONE WILL COME, not even the New Yorkers.

[Borg from Star Trek]

Resistance is futile...Face it- we're getting a new stadium. If you don't want to pay for it, you'll have to pull a Wesley Snipes.

[Matthew]

Anyone who was at Council today to see the whiz kid New Yorkers present their so called financial plan were in for a big disappointment. The Rays employees were the most unprepared, unprofessional and incompetent men I’ve ever seen do this sort of thing. They rehashed old propaganda, spun some sort of yard about magically pulling 55 million out of a parking hat that does not have any contracts for parking at all, and basically wasted Council’s time.

And what was this about “no new taxes?” They are asked for plenty of new taxes – money that could better be spent on our schools, police protection, fireman, social services – not so that a for-profit corporation can make money off our waterfront, our land and our taxes. Their “big surprise” for today was that they are far less adept at finances than anyone ever dreamed.

[Chase]

Alex - you are flat wrong with your figures. Congrats on lying.

Doug - we in St. Pete didn't pay anything for RayJay.

Ron - learn how to spell correctly and then perhaps your points will be valid.

Jorge - quote actual statements rather than ones you made up and then maybe I'll pay attention to what you have to say.

Don Mott - 81 home games a year + 5,000 vehicles min/game at $10 for parking = 14 years to generate $55 million. Include "other side deals" as mentioned above and the possibility of extra games due to playoffs, and of course the fact that's there's often likely to be more than 5,000+ paid parking vehicles per game and the money may be there sooner. (What's the problem here?)

Chris - well stated and logical points.

Jorge - if you want to talk about eye-sores let's talk about the Trop. Pinellas County has more than enough Waterfront property to enjoy. And it's likely the stadium will only enhance the ambience of the waterfront by offering a unique interplay not seen anywhere else.

Ruby - What makes it YOUR waterfront? Please explain! You resorted to name calling - must take one to know one.

Harold - how has the Mayor not been honest? Please explain!

Dr. Dug - thank goodness you're not a politician because you seemingly only think from a perspective of what's best for you rather than the greater good. And I love how you're calling out younger voters. I hope you know young people unite around that sort of cynicism. Thanks for rallying more young people to vote YES!

Zach - well said. I supported Albert Whitted, but by all means, I'd sacrifice it for the new stadium. Part of the reason I wanted it saved was because it was a landmark on the waterfront. However, a new stadium can serve as a new landmark and will benefit more people than Albert Whitted so really, in terms of what's good for a larger population, why keep it?

Mike - New Yorkers will be there. Spoke to my brother in Manhattan this evening and said he pledges to attend the first series at the new stadium.

Steve - God forbid the Sailing Club loses docking spots.

Gomes - Love the passion! The tipping point for me is simple. If not getting the new stadium means that there's a greater threat of the team leaving town, then I'm likely to vote YES for the new stadium. Unlike perhaps most, I'm thinking of what's best for St. Pete long range, and not just what is positive from an economic standpoint.

There are few things that bring people together better than sports. A new waterfront stadium will bring more exposure to the city which will enhance its prominence and most likely its economic vitality, thus allowing it to prosper greater into the long term.

There are few experiences in life to cherish more than going to your first ball game with your young son or daughter and seeing the amazement in their faces due to the wonderment before them. It's priceless really, and a traditional slice of Americana that I don't believe a value can be placed upon.

For this reason, I for one will go watch the Rays wherever they're playing in St. Pete. I actually love watching games at the Trop, despite the fact that Bud Selig is on record as saying that it's not fit to host the All-Star game.

Call me crazy, but I believe fans will come out and support this team now that they're getting good and that the Trop will actually become one of the most unique parks in baseball because it will have character. As Joe Maddon said the day he was hired, it'd be great to make it a pit and fill it with 40,000 rabid Rays fans. I tend to think that sort of atmosphere would be just as cool an experience as the outdoor waterfront park could provide. And I believe we can get there. The ownership is showing it cares about the team (they deserve immense praise for the improvements they've made to the Trop and the team-thank you, thank you, thank you), now lets show them we care about the team (because clearly we do!).

I love the Rays and so will everyone the day they decide to go to some games and make the Trop fill up. We can start making that happen this year, and if it does, hopefully ownership will see that new stadium or not, they'll be able to profit from this team and that owning them in Tampa Bay will be a worthwhile venture going forward.

In regards to the new stadium, my gut feeling is that all of this will be delayed by City Council due to a lack of specifics. Someday, however, I believe there will be a MLB stadium on the waterfront because it's too great of a place not to have one and because the Tampa Bay area has more than enough waterfront property to offset it(it should have been put there in the first place). And if I had my way about it, I guess I'd rather see that than miss it.

[john]

A bunch o Old people on here complaining..what's new!! Build the Stadium before they make it into a shuffle board park, they will be dead by the time the thing is built anyway. Stop making St.Pete a place were old people come to die!!

[joe]

Hey Sal Tampa had a chance to get a ball team but did not put the effort in to attract one like St. Pete did, instead they gave land and built a a stadium for the Yankee's!! And who would be jealous of New Cuba I mean Tampa anyway!

[rick from Largo]

All you mental cases out there...St.Pete and the rest of P-County is under attack on the front. The water front! We're a peninsula upon a peninsula and developers won't quit unit it's all metro. I still remember when the Trop was being built, it made the Times that a black worker was commanded to get into a ditch of foul looking water or be fired. He went in and later had slabs of skin falling off hid legs. Turned out there was a gas works there once. Oops! The Trop isn't that old, and not that ugly. Change is a constant; but really, in this yet to be plumbed national and local financial debacle, ultra-rich free agents playing ball in Florida is a yuck.
We still have a supposed WAR on where people DIE every day. It's a corporate and privatized war of course, and in it's own way kind of sounds like how you get $55 million from parking, and a bag of 30 year loans. By that time it won't matter. We'll all have gas.

Stop the welfare on baseball. When tax money is used for baseball stadiums than the baseball players get drug tested before each game. If the Player tests positive no playing in the game that day or night. If hole team tests positive no game. If baseball want's to build their own stadium they can do all the grugs they wan't.

[James]

I am a lifelong resident of Pinellas County and part of the younger demographic (25-34), and I took my boys to a Rays game this week. I understand people who want to save the waterfront, but do you know how many times in the past year, I've been down there to enjoy the waterfront?

none.

This new ownership group has done everything we asked, including putting a winning team on the field. It's time we stepped up ourselves.

[A. Fan]

After this is voted down and the Rays leave the city or the state. I'd like all of the people who voted against the stadium to be put into the Trop so the real fans can kick thier asses.

[Jon McPhee]

Quoth the Rays: "Extend the hotel tax. Hmmm, let's see, can't be spent on regular municipal services, so it's not like we're asking for NEW taxes. Got to remember to keep them from recalling that these tax receipts were supposed to go to improving tourism along the beaches, and were sold as being finite. And that petroleum is up, so tourism based on travel is down, and the marginal effect of an increased cost of renting a room whether the hotel owner absorbs the tax or passes it along. Cool! We can sell it to the schmucks! It looks like Free Money, but it's still out of the community's pocket, with no cost to the Rays!"

There's all kinds of anecdotal evidence showing how public giveaways to business actually work. Here's just one: Back in the '80s, U.S. Steel was planning to get out of the steel business in Gary, Indiana. Their management told the city, the states of Indiana and Illinois, the EPA and the Steelworkers that if U.S. Steel could just get an agreement that labor would cut wages and the governments would give the company a pass on environmental liabilities, U.S. Steel would keep operating in Gary "forever." And what a surprise, when the company which had enough billions in cash to buy Marathon Oil Company and all its proven oil and gas reserves, reneged on all these ironclad promises and walked away.

So the Rays are "willing to cover any cost overruns" for actual stadium construction, as long as they control construction. Sounds so reasonable. But let's see -- if they control construction, they control the bidding and contracting and setting of costs. If the City and County are PAYING the costs, the Rays have no incentive to sharpen their pencils before the contracts are signed, so any bets on whether there would be lots of padding (payable by the citizens) in every contract, to protect against "overruns?"

And presumably as the contracting party, the Rays would also control how the inevitable construction litigation over whether the marble countertops in the executive bathrooms were a "change order," subject to City funding, or an overrun. And of course, since so much had been put into the deal at this point, what's a few hundred thousand more, which after all is coming out of the net general revenues from the 940,000 citizens of the Pinellas Peninsula, who are (trumpet flare!) gaining the immense intangible externality of having a Major League Baseball team here!

One poster here said the Rays presentation looked inept. I wasn't there, have to work for a living. But don't count on their being inept, folks, at keeping all their money in their own pockets and leading our elected leaders by the nose with a carrot dream of "world class" on the end of their pointed stick.

We're told that the city counsel was wowed, which argues once again for a fundamental question as to whether these folks are sharp enough and have enough of the deal-valuing skills that the Rays have in plenty, to "negotiate" something that fundamentally affects all citizens, would "enricher" the already loaded expatriate owners, and has more potential potholes than the streets in South St. Pete.

[Matt]

I hope the Rays get their new park. If they don't I hope they move to a city that can support a MLB team. The Tampa Bay area has so far shown to be a failure for MLB and denying a new stadium would be the final nail in the coffin. There is absolutely no reason to vote No, except for purely selfish reasons. A new stadium would be better for the area.

Fact Check:

1. The “extension” of an existing tax IS a new tax.
2. Tourism and recession just don’t mix (Regardless of what Crist say’s)
3. Outstanding debt on the Trop is approximately 90-million.
4. Best offer for the Trop site is approximately 62-million, leaving approximately 38-million still owed by Pinellas taxpayers.
5. Parking revenue?… from where; Oklahoma?
6. Affordable housing?… let’s see; 450-million minus 150-million (paid by Rays shell game) = 300-million if you go with it just for fun… 300-million + 38-million = 338-million… 338-million for 86 acres = 3.9-million per acre… add clean up and construction costs… there goes your affordable housing in a market flooded with 1000’s of empty unaffordable homes and condos as it is.
7. The Trop is just fine.

"There is absolutely no reason to vote No, except for purely selfish reasons."

Matt, you are an idiot shill. Go Home, or cut the check yourself.

Howard,
Are you here? Can you do something about that juvenile bully Dr_Dug?

[Art]

Dr Dug
You make a lot of very valid points and as much as I dislike the idea I unfortuantly agree with your stance on the stadium. However, as a compasionate person, or caring individual you fall far short of the mark and simply seem a snob. peace~art

[Rex]

Do any of you nay-sayer idiots realize there is already a stadium there??

Saint Pete needs this - and we need to be less associated with crotchedy old complainers, and more with young proggressive thinkers.

YES YES YES

[sue]

Dr_Dur, it is "you're", not "your"

[Howard Troxler]

Howard here, catching up with all the comments.

I believe that the Rays pay for the widening of the street -- I'll double-check that in my next contact with them.

Re: existing debt: remember we are talking about paying off the local (city & county) portion of the obligation. The state portion at $2m/year is basically a "pass-through," a payment that will continue until it runs out whenever (2027 I think). The local payoff is somewhere around $65-70m, and odds are the city will end up getting that much dough from the developer. If not, I can't IMAGINE the taxpayers paying cash out of pocket to retire the rest of the debt, so the whole deal crashes anyway.

A very good discussion here except for the occasional "assclown" comment, which I can't figure how the filter allows, since I can't say "truck n-tz."

A fresh blog post coming soon this AM I think...

[Raysdr]

A new stadium should be built. The Rays ownership however, needs to open the books. Baseball owners are notorious for not opening their books. I don't think a waterfront stadium at the Al land site would be the best option, but it would definately be better than The Trop. I do like the comforts of the Trop. I used to go to 40 + games every season, until I got relocated to upstate NY for work. I hope there is a compromise, and I hope that it comes soon, because for me and my family, Baseball in St. Pete was simply the most fun we ever had. To the Owners of the Rays and the Residents of St. Pete, I have one thing to say:

Do The Right Thing! Compromise, and keep baseball where it belongs, in St Pete, the most beautiful city I have ever called home.

"Saint Pete needs this - and we need to be less associated with crotchedy old complainers, and more with young proggressive thinkers."

Great idea, Rex! Why don’t we just euthanize at the age of 65… then, we can go after the darkies, jews, and queers next!

… moron

[Zogby!]

Howard,

The poll is a great idea. Unfortunately, the results (given the control measures) will be as legitimate as the proposed deal for the boondoggle… errr… new stadium! I do hope that neither you nor the Times will validate these votes by reporting them as legitimate poll.

[Make a Deal]

The Rays made their offer. Which is their first and the one they are most comfortable with. Now it's our turn. Remember to negotiate! Just because that's what they ask for doesn't mean we roll over and act dead. We are problem solvers not complainers.
Honestly, I was surprised that city council member Nurse asked "how much is owed on Trop"? and Bennett asking "where does the money from our parking go to now"? No wonder they can't balance a budget. They are not aware how much is coming in and how much is going out. Well I hope that council/commissioners can at least put together a plan that holds the Rays ownership to more of the cost while still securing waterfront baseball in St. Pete for 40 more years. Our youth will continue to grow up in a city that has a team that pulls the area together in unity for a Ray win! I want that. I can see boys collecting signatures on Rays ball caps their whole youth. And running into ball players around town. That is powerful. Let's invest in the hope of the future. Some times it works as planned sometimes their are surprises. But still we press on.

...and yet you people WILL let this happen. Yay for me for not living in St Pete. Amazing how I knew city gov is full of yahoo's...typical

shut up and stay in NY (raysdr)

Tell me again why all of us "owe" the Rays owners, who can afford to buy and sell most of Pinellas County between them, a new stadium?

lease don't tell me that "It's just the way it is." The public in much richer San Francisco did not have to buy the Giants a new stadium, real live actual business people paid for it themselves.

Tell me again why all the members of the public, whether they value that father-and-son, "first game wonder" experience at zero or infinity, have to pony up anything for the questionable "privilege" of having an MLB business in town and making a butt-load of money already? In real dollar terms, what is the inchoate externality of "having a baseball team in town" actually worth?

If the parking study the Rays have done is right, how do the Rays plan to work out deals with all the various owners of potential parking areas to collect that $55 million over how many years?

What is the actual game the Rays owners are playing here -- maybe just seeing how pie-eyed the locals are, whether they are dumb enough to buy the premise that they "owe" the Rays a new stadium and $10 million "office" for the owners? What game do the mayor and city council and county officials think they are playing?

And why does it seem that the initial question, does this make any sense for the whole community, seem to have been jumped right over by our elected officials? It sure looks that way, even from the one page of notes taken by one of our city council members and released by Mr. Sharockman some weeks ago.

[Jon McPhee]

Dang it, keep trying to focus on the real issues, and then forget to fill in the ID info. I own the 10:12 comment.

[yertown]

I still don't understand why people are against this without letting it play out to the end. We are a tourist and entertainment distination, and we are competing with North Carolina, Arizona, Texas, Tennesee, and a slew of other attractive venues. Entertaininment and tourism are our only core businesses over the long haul, unless you're banking on Circle K's, restaurants, strip joints, and low income retirees to fund the future of your infrastructure and maintain your home values. Microsoft is NOT moving here to bring jobs and grow our tax base - ever. Hear these guys out -they are pretty smart from what I can see.

[Kay]

I'm 40, a native of St Pete as well as my parents, grand parents and great-grandparents. I'm married to a 36year old New York transplant that has been here 4 years and we have a 2 1/2 year old son. We are Rays/baseball fans (not Yankee fans btw) and go to as many games as we can a year (usually about 6).
I work downtown and I rent a parking spot in the Baywalk garage so it is available to me 24/7 and I am not giving it up and there is no money to be made by the Rays for me parking there.
We feel that we have one of the most beatiful waterfronts in the country. We actually do frequent the downtown parks and the Pier. We also go to the local museums.
We think that the "no new taxes" statement was a bold faced lie which the new information proves to us.
We would like to see a new team come to St Pete for spring training at Al Lang but if that is not possible, it should be added to our waterfront park system.
We have hard feelings that the Rays owners are trying to take our city and it's taxpayers for a ride. We will vote no if this thing goes to referendum. We also voted no on amendment one.
If we cannot help prevent this thing from moving forward, the team will lose us as fans. We do not want to fight for parking so that we can walk 1/2 mile only to spend a few hours sweating or getting rain soaked. No thanks.
Kay

[Dave]

You want a guarantee? How about a guarantee that a new great stadium will be built and it makes perfect sense - ON PAPER. Would you rather the team went the route of the Marlins? Or would you rather St. Pete not have a team? I guarantee the majority of the people against the stadium are also against any baseball in St Pete - under any conditions. Step into the common sense corner and thank the new Ray ownership for offering such a great thing for our City! Any other City in the country would be doing cartwheels over such an opportunity. Why are we so skeptical and why were we putting signs in our yards BEFORE we even knew what the financing plan was?

[Larry]

Vote YES! YES! YES!

time to step up people and move into this century. Have any of your complainers ever been to the new park in San Fran or Seattle? Fantastic destination venues that are thriving all around. Restaurants, shops, etc. This will be good for everyone involved. Pay a little, get a lot!
Vote YES! Vote YES! Vote YES!!

[justme]

As a native of Pinellas County and have lived here my entire 49 years of life, change will happen but I am against a new stadium. When Sternberg bought the team he knew what he had which is Tropicana Field. Now he wants to get greedy for more.
As for Houston's comment - Evidently you have not been by the Trop lately.. It has been repainted with the new colors and baseballs & bats have been added around the top.. looks really nice.
Yes, the Ray's are playing really well for now, lets see how long it continues. Past history has had them doing really well in the 1st half of the season and then taking a land slide into the dug out in the last half. Time will tell here. With trying to get a new stadium the team has put down a pretty nice payroll to try to boost more reasons for a new stadium. Just don't let that fool you.
As for 5000 + cars at a game? Hmm where do you see that? If there are only 5000 people at a game does that mean everyone drove there? I really don't think so. That would mean that 2 year old drove to game and I really don't think that happened. With economics right now I don't think this area needs any more retail or housing. To many places even in the downtown area are sitting empty. Go by any of the malls right now and the parking lots are fairly empty. So far they have not convinced me to vote yes for a new stadium not when Tropicana Field is perfectly fine. You want outdoors? Then put in a retractable top.

On the positive side here. I am really glad to see the team doing so well and I hope that continues. I do support the Ray's(have been at most all games since the beginning). GO RAYS, great playing!!

Hey Dr. Dummy- Why do you think you speak for all St. Pete residents? Many people do want the ballpark, and guess what? Their votes do count too. Many people like myself are at least willing to listen to the Rays. You are a bitter unhappy person that would never attend a game anyway- so really why should your vote count? You don't support nor like your local team. I'm from Pittsburgh and I support the Rays because I live here. The Rays are making serious progress and effort on the field, the least we could do is give them a little support. We don't know all of the details yet and at the end of the day it might not make financial sense for the city but the least we could do is listen with an open mind. In another retarded post Dr. Dip Doo was saying the Rays 'can't fill up the Trop' well they have never won before, wait and see if the team is competitive in the coming months, I think the Trop will start drawing some good numbers. Heck if they gosh forbid make the playoffs we'll probably see Dr. Dummy on the news wearing a Rays cap with a cowbell saying "I always knew they could do it"

[Larry]

Howard, I enjoyed the Rays defeating the NYY last evening at the Trop. I still, cannot for the life of me, figure out why they need a new ballpark. There is nothing wrong with the Trop. Air conditioned, plenty of parking, pleasant environment. I just don't get it. Why go on the hook to sit outside and sweat in July, August, September and October. Why clutter up the downtown with something that they are making fit into the space and have no place to park your car. And another thing, the Trop has very easy access to the interstate. It just makes no sense to me. As one post said, "sexy idea", but is it really. I believe that if the voters approve this, they will live to regret it, once they see the mess brought to the downtown waterfront. I see the results of your poll are running neck and neck. I think this is going to be a close call.

[justme]

Hey Larry,
Nice thought for 6 months a year. What are all those shops & restaurants going to do for the other 6 months? What are they going to do for the days/week the team is on the road? Are we going to give them tax breaks for those 6 months they have very little to no business?

[Make a Deal]

The owners that bought the Rays have made a lot of money. They were in the financial market at the right time and met all the right people. Good for them. What's good for St. Pete is that this group of business men bought an underdog team to challenge themselves. Can they turn it around? Can they buy it low and sell it high. Is that bad to do? Absolutely not.
First they put together a talented and educated staff. Then they spruced up the Dome. Then they concentrated on growing the fan base. By moving spring training out to Port Charolette, tv ratings have grown in that region. The higher the ratings the better for bringing in revenues.
Now how can they fill at least 22,000 seats to keep the books profitable to sign big contracts, keeping payrolls with all their training facilities, and making the ownership group profits. They need to find out if we are a baseball demographic.
If not then they will find the area that works best for profits. The Rays will still exist, just not here in St. Pete.

Pie-in-the-sky promises and taxpayer funded corporate welfare!

Meanwhile, back in the real world… gas is $4-a-gallon, jobs are 10-an-hour, homes are 350K+ (and people are loosing them at a 1-in-4 rate), our economy is in a recession, young American men and women are dying in war every day… but hey!… so long as gay people can marry and the Rays get a new home (when their current one is just fine)… all is well!

PRIORITIES!

[Make a Deal]

The redevelopment includes housing. People will live and work here. People need to eat everday and they wear clothes everyday. The ball games are just another choice of how to spend an evening. The businesses won't suffer on non game days.

[Ray F]

All you thankless people... The Rays promised a competitive team by 2008, they promised to make the fan experience better, they promised free parking for one year and did it for 2 and still offer a free parking option. The ticket prices remain some of the lowest in baseball. You can bring food to the games and bottled water.

...and this is the thanks they get. If the Rays leave, good for them. You people don't deserve a Major League team in your backyards. Shame on all of you blue hairs who whined and cried for 80 years to get a team and now want to slap them in the face for asking for a stadium that is meant for them and not just some multi-use warehouse. Bush league. The Rays need to ask if it's just the waterfront that's the issue. Are the blue hairs willing to build near Gandy? i bet they are. That wouldn't obstruct their views to pointless Albert Whitted Airport. Rediculous

[Howard Troxler]

Howard here again. Do you mind if we continue this discussion on the new Friday blog post I have just put up? I will close the comments to this post.

Here's the link:

http://blogs.tampabay.com/troxler/2008/05/the-friday-stad.html

[Jim Johnson]

If the RAYS discovered a crack cocaine mine they sure wouldnt want to include the taxpayers in on the deal.

Anytime business hankers to include the taxpayer in on a deal, it means the taxpayer is gonna get hosed.