Here's the transcript of the May 13 chat

Hello, happy Tuesday, and welcome to the transcript of the weekly live chat here on TroxBlog. Today's chat started out with comments about the Rachel Hoffman story, the state Legislature and the presidential race, and ended up mostly focused on the proposed baseball stadium in St. Petersburg.

To read the transcript of today's chat: Just click on the "Comments" link of this announcement, a few lines below. You'll see a page with everything that's been said so far -- and at the end, a space for you to add your own question or comment.

Thanks to everyone who stopped by or took part in today's chat -- I hope to see you at the next chat on Tuesday, May 20!

Comments

[Howard Troxler]

Let's start with a good comment from regular TroxBlogger Chris Jenkins, on the Rachel Hoffman story:

Felony Posession of marijuana was only the beginning of her legal issues. As someone who supports the decriminalization of marijuana for medicinal purposes, I would also be concerned about this story were that the only foundation. However, she also had pending charges for dealing marijuana and ecstacy. She was not simply a low level marijuana user. She was a dealer of multiple drugs.

I was offended by the TBT cover yesterday, which proclaimed it a "setup", and said police "forced" Rachel to become a CI. The fact is, she had pending felony charges for trafficking drugs, was OFFERED the chance to reduce or eliminate her sentence by acting as a CI, and CHOSE to do so. This is common practice within the state of Florida, and everyone who is selling drugs is most definitely aware of the risks of being an informant against others who are buying or selling drugs. While I have compassion for the hurt and anger of Rachel's family, and sadness for her death as a fellow human being, this story is being spun in a particularly disturbing way regarding Law Enforcement's role, and portraying Rachel as the victim of manipulative police forces. If everyone reads a little deeper, that is clearly not the case here. -- Chris Jenkins

[Howard Troxler]

And here's another reader's reply to Chris, before I give mine:

Chris Jenkins, I respectfully disagree. With a small understanding of the law, and a bit of street smarts, clearly this was a small time young lady used as a big time informer. "Intent" is a charge that is presumed when a person is found with over 20 grams. It does not necessarily mean that she had "intent" or there was proof of "intent" just that she had enough for that "intent". Above $100 worth. Which really isn't all that much, in my opinion. They sent her out with what? I read somewhere it was like $12000! We are talking big time, serious, dangerous informant work. I suspect that she felt really desperate to save herself and made a fatal decision. The professionals should have known better! -- Kay

[Howard Troxler]

Dear Chris Jenkins: Thanks for the comment and I know you will not mind if I politely disagree. Her only charge was felony possession of marijuana, which means, more than 20 grams, which is still less than an ounce. The news story says that subsequently more marijuana and some X was found in her house, and the police gave her the choice between being charged with dealing those drugs, or cooperating as a CI and getting off scot-free. Even if she were guilty of the latter charges, I do not see how this 23-year-old recent FSU graduate ends up dead in Taylor County under any circumstance

[Howard Troxler]

And a different comment on the Hoffman case:

Howard, no one, daughter or son aside, should be put in harms way by the police. I can see the parent's lawsuit coming, and you know what, they're going to win. This will probably make Alan Crotzer's settlement look like chump change. The police were wrong. Dead wrong. -- Larry

[Howard Troxler]

Now, here's a comment filed to my column this morning, for whatever you think it is worth:

As the end time nears, the ground will shake, the earth will rebel, the waters will rise, and victim will be seen as the criminal and the criminal as the victim… this will signal the beginning of the end. So it was written, so it will be done. -- Unsigned

(To which I inquired: Are you quoting Cecil B. DeMille, or a particular passage from scripture?)

[Howard Troxler]

Here's an e-mail comment about the Legislature:

We relocated from NY to New Port Richey in 2000. As I became more involved in the local scene one thing struck me as unusual... the Florida Legislature is called into session for only 2 months each year. I asked my State Senator Mike Fasano: with all the urgency for critical bills to be voted on... why such a short session? His canned response: "it is in the Florida Constitution". So what? Change it. I know that NYS is in session 6 months. How can we expect to get the job done in 2 months sessions. And what do they do for the other 10 months? We need a policy change in Tallahassee. Do you have contacts in some other states that would give their session duration? I want to believe Florida is the smallest. -- Jack B.

[Howard Troxler]

Dear Jack B.: True, the Legislature meets only 60 days a year under our state Constitution. But as a practical matter, it's more of a full-time job. There actually are committee weeks once a month for much of the year, during which members are continuing to discuss issues and possible legislation. As to whether that's ENOUGH, I can't say... my own thinking is that it's not the length of the session that's a problem, as much as a lack of institutional strength in the Legislature, especially a strong policy engine. The result is that lobbyists have an out-of-balance influence in creating and even writing legislation.

[Howard Troxler]

A question on the presidential race:

I hear so often that Senator Clinton agreed to the rules concerning the Florida Primary. What were the exact words of the rule and what exactly were Senator Clinton's response to the rule? -- Geraldine Custer, Port Richey

[Howard Troxler]

Dear Geraldine Custer: I don't have the exact words in front of me, but the gist of it was that only four states -- Iowa, New Hampshire, South Carolina and I believe Nevada-- could have primaries or caucuses before a certain date, and Florida's Jan. 29 primary violated that date. The penalty was that the Democratic National Committee could choose not to seat the state's delegates at the national convention. In addition to that, the Democratic candidates signed a pledge not to honor Florida's election or campaign in the state (although they sure continued to raise money here!)

[Howard Troxler]

A presidential question:

Why is West Virginia so prominent in primary elections? It doesn't seem to be that important otherwise. W. VA. seemed crucial to JFK in 1960, and now again we're hearing about the importance of the W. Va. primary again in the Clinton/Obama race. Please fill this obvious void in my knowledge. -- Joseph A. Eustace, Jr.

[Socrates]

Howard at 12:06… excellent observation!

[Howard Troxler]

Actually, I don't remember WV being especially important in most elections SINCE Kennedy, but maybe I am leaving something out. In this case, I suppose it's important simply because Clinton-Obama continues to drag on, and EVERY state has some significance. Also, the smart folks say Clinton should get a decent win there today, which to some small extent continues to keep her alive...

[Howard Troxler]

Hi Socrates! Sorry about that whole hemlock thing. The ungrateful $#$$s.

[Chuck]

Incendiary comment of the day:

Dr. Boyce Watkins.

Cheers,

Chuck

[Howard Troxler]

Please explain delegates, superdelegates, superdooperdelegates, etc., and also why "they" (whoever they may be) are calling for Hillary to pack it in, that she is finished. I went to the polls in January, along with a record amount of Florida's voters, and kind of took it for granted the powers that be would allow our votes to be counted. Please explain in simple, easy to understand language why I/we should go to the polls in November if everything has been decided. -- MamaJoFla

[Howard Troxler]

Dear MamaJoFla: The term "superdelegates" refers to elected officials and other Democratic Party leaders who get a vote at the nominating convention in addition to the regularly elected delegates in state primaries and caucuses. The idea is that the institutional party structure ought to get SOME say in who the nominee is. As a practical matter in most years, this hasn't mattered much -- the state elections have usually produced a clear winner pretty early. In this case, I still think it's possible there could be some kind of upheaval and th party could choose Clinton, but it seems increasingly unlikely.

Re: why should you vote in November? Because that's the election that "counts" when it comes to choosing whether the next president is a Republican or Democrat. Even if Florida's Democratic primary doesn't end up fully "counting" at the convention, Florida still has a major say in who the next president will be. No internal party rules or nominating hijinks can take away Florida's standing in the Electoral College.

[Howard Troxler]

Hi Chuck!

What ABOUT Dr. Boyce Watkins? Has he said something new? I confess, I ran to Google...

[Chuck]

How do you feel about Hillary being accused of "race baiting" in response to her "hard working White Americans" comment?

[Socrates]

"The only good is knowledge and the only evil is ignorance."

Welcome to the Florida election process. It is time to let it go and press on for the good of the whole.

[Howard Troxler]

I don't know if she's race BAITING, which has a different connotation for me.

But she definitely is playing a race card -- "Obama can't win because there are enough white people who don't like him." It seemed pretty blatant to me.

I am not even sure if it's TRUE, after his great showing in my home state of North Carolina, which I always considered to have a certain residual of that sentiment.

[Chuck]

Nothing really. Caught part of his act on a 8pm cable news program that shall remain nameless.

Very surprised Syracuse hasn't gone public with at least a mild condemnation.

[Ron]

The city of St Petersburg has always had a great variety of events sponsored downtown, Blue Fest, First Night, Rib Fest, Mainsail, etc. They've slowly cut off most, if not all, of their funding for these events. (Which is fine with me!!) It appears as though this is not enough. Now they want to make a profit off of these events by charging $1 per person in attendance. Shouldn't they be happy to just have their costs covered and bring thousands into downtown for these events?

[Chuck]

Re: Race Baiting

I kinda thought she was marginalizing black voters by, well, assuming she has no shot with them.

This of course means that she thinks black voters are voting with their hearts and not their head...perhaps blind loyalty is a better way of putting it.

[Howard Troxler]

Hi Ron! On the $1 surcharge for St. Pete events, I am not sure I feel strongly about it. The city in the past has been a willing "co-sponsor" of almost any group (it seems) that wanted the waterfront. IMHO some of these events just clogged up the public greenspace; I used to be mad at running up against a chicken-wire fence when I lived where I could take morning runs along the waterfront.

Again, however, I would like to know how many executive positions the city has eliminated before resorting to this idea.

[Socrates]

Ron,

He who is not contented with what he has, would not be contented with what he would like to have.

[Chuck]

Re: $1 admission

I have to say it. I think Ribfest is atrociously overpriced already. What is it, $10 to get in the gate? Then the huge lines and the high price of the ribs soured me on the event.

Is it possible this $1 admission fee is to maybe take some of the heat off of the promoters of the event? Charging for Mainsail seems pretty ridiculous however.

[Howard Troxler]

On the race-baiting thing, I see that Dr. Boyce Watkins is a Syracuse professor who apparently is in a shouting match with Bill O'Reilly, who, naturally, thinks Syracuse should fire a tenured professor for saying things O'Reilly doesn't like. The nuts and bolts are tiresome but if you like that sort of thing, it's easily Googled.

[Booger]

"Again, however, I would like to know how many executive positions the city has eliminated before resorting to this idea."

Man, dead-nuts-on there, Howard... dead-nuts-on.

[Howard Troxler]

Hey, is there any chance Socrates is also Thor? Nah, I guess not...

[Howard Troxler]

Hi Booger! (I just wanted to say, "Hi Booger!")

[Socrates]

True knowledge exists in knowing that you know nothing. And in knowing that you know nothing, that makes you the smartest of all.

[Carl]

How 'bout them Rays!... 1/2 game out of 1st place!

[Chuck]

Well who really cares about the firing part? The situation itself is the interesting issue.

Watkins called Juan Williams, who I'm sure you're at least familiar with, some very "interesting" names referring to his race and position with the program.

Anyways...I'll agree that it's tiresome but just to bring things back to the relevant, the man is a die hard Obama supporter. The fringe hasn't exactly been helping him out lately.

[justme]

Hi Howard & everyone else!

Yep.. How bout the Ray's.. nice start hopefully they continue on the winning path. To bad last nights attendance was really low for Yankee game. I guess everyone was busy with watching Dancing with the Stars or something.

[Howard Troxler]

Re: Rays: How ABOUT them Rays. I have tix to one of the Yanks games this week and can't wait.

I confess to having some mixed feelings, having been a diehard fan for most of the team's 10.25 seasons here, and waiting for a long time for the franchise to turn around.

But I also am cranky about putting the public on the hook for a new stadium, especially if there are no guarantees that selling off Tropicana Field will raise enough revenue to pay for it.

[Chuck]

No, the wannabe Yankees fans are staying at home because they know there's a good chance they're going to get embarrassed.

[Howard Troxler]

On the Rays attendance, I think it will turn around eventually if the performance holds up and as interest grows. Look, 10 years of misery doesn't just disappear in a few weeks' time. I used to go to plenty of half-full Bucs games (the old joke being, I left two Bucs tickets on my windshield for someone to take, and when I got back, there were four).

[justme]

LOL Chuck is THAT what it is. Thanks for letting me know. I just hope our boys Spank the Yank's

[Carl]

A strong run by the Rays could actually have an impact on the vote. Sad, but true.

[Howard Troxler]

Carl, I think you are right... if the team actually made the playoffs (which is kooky talk, yet I can't help it), I think there would still be considerable afterglow in a November election.

Which ought NOT be the basis of making a rational business decision.

[Ron]

The Rays could go 162-0 & I still won't vote for my tax dollars to pay for a new stadium!!

[Jonny Anonny]

Hey, Howard --

I'm curious if you got an avalance of mail (or email) on your Sunday column, and would you care to offer a prediction for how Amend. 2 will fare in November. Also, do you think it will have its (possible) intended effect of bringing out the conservative base?

Also with you on the stadium deal -- except I'm separating that out in my mind and just going ahead and rooting big time for the Rays!

[justme]

Actually this time of the year the attendance is low. Its close to the end of school season. There is a lot of things going on for families with school age children. The Yankee's are here during the week. It will pick up once school lets out. If they had been here this past weekend the adrenalin would have been flowing.

[Carl]

I don't know about you all, but I love the Trop. It's a great venue. I'd most likely go to less games at (if) the new stadium.

[justme]

I support the home town team.. but that does not mean I support giving them a new home. This one is perfectly fine for the time being.

[Carl]

Darn, I've got to go to batting practice now. See you!

[Chuck]

Carl,

I'm glad you like the Trop. I think it's terrible.

[Howard Troxler]

Hi Jonny. I don't know, I have been on a bad streak of predicting election outcomes (for example, I thought Amendment 1, on property taxes, would fail in January, but it passed relatively easily).

Let's just say that in the ONLY state so far where a same-sex marriage ban has failed, Arizona, the opposition was based precisely on THIS issue -- that the measure was overbroad, and would invalidate health benefits and other existing things. That seems to be the distinguishing factor from every other state that has had a same-sex marriage ban on the ballot and passed it.

[justme]

I'm with you Carl and I am at every game.

[Ron]

I've been to more than half of the MLB stadiums around the country. The Trop certainly isn't among the top, but it's still a serviceable stadium (And I do prefer the 72 degree temperature). Besides, beyond a 1-2 game curiosity factor, no one goes to a baseball game because of the stadium!!

[Chuck]

I think we're dangerously close to stepping on Aaron Sharockman's toes here...

And if we step on his toes then we'll probably step on the toes of Goldman Sachs elitist pigs. (Since they're always sitting next to each other)

[justme]

How many States now allow same sex marriage ?

[Howard Troxler]

justme, on the time-of-year argument, my colleague Aaron Sharockman did an apples-to-apples comparison of the Rays with other teams the other day, and found the Rays low compared to all the others, even with one of the better records. In San Diego (where they have to root for something called the "Padres") attendance was far better... there was an interesting story in the sports section the other day about 25-30k fans routinely showing up in St. Louis even for "meaningless" games late in the season, love of tradition, etc. --

We have some educatin' to do.

[Jonny Anonny]

Interesting analysis on the same-sex marriage ban, Howard. Also, I think the idea that this could provide problems for seniors might have legs. Who knows.

Not to keep putting you on the spot with forced predictions, but what do you think will happen with the stadium? Like most of the posters here today (and you, I think), I'm somewhat skeptical at the very best. Is this thing just going to die a slow, painful death?

[Howard Troxler]

I like the 72-degree comfort of the Trop and think it is a perfectly fine baseball environment WHEN there's a good attendance... otherwise it has somewhat the character of a warehouse.

Overall I am open-minded on the question of the outdoor stadium. First of all, folks all over the country attend summer baseball games outdoors, even in places as miserable as ours (St. Louie, Atlanta, Arlington for pete's sake). I think they CAN design it with airways, etc. to lower the ambient temperature. I think the sail blocking absorption of sunlight during the day CAN reduce the amount of radiant heat rising up in our faces at night. And so forth.

[justme]

Howard but wasnt that on Mothers Day? If I didnt work down there I sure as heck wouldnt want to spend my Mothers Day at a baseball game. Saturday's game wasnt bad at all. Get for real, how many LAA fans do we have in this area? LOL

[Ron]

Justme, I believe that it was Mothers day everywhere.

[Howard Troxler]

On the stadium, we took a poll right after the proposal became public that showed overwhelming support IF no new tax dollars were involved.

I am pretty sure the final Rays proposal to be made public in a few days WILL require "new" tax dollars, in the sense of extending the existing city and county payments.

The Rays will argue this way: By extending the same "car payment," we get a new and better car, while still paying what we're paying now.

I think a lot of people will be persauded by this. I think it' something the establishment of St. Pete might get behind.

But me, I am stubborn and cranky. They SAID the redevelopment of Tropicana Field would generate enough money to cover the cost. So I want that guaranteed. By the developer. By the Rays. I don't care who.

No guarantee, no stadium, says me... what do you think?

[justme]

Yes it was Ron but we live in paradise.. I would have rather have been out on a picnic out at Fort Desoto then at a ball game before we get into our high humidity hot summer days..

[Ron]

I am certainly looking forward to Thursday, when the Rays present thier "preliminary" financing plan. Thursday is May 15. The plan to be released is tagged as "preliminary", but St Pete is supposed to decide in early June whether to put this on the ballot? I wonder if Superman could even slow down this train (Perhaps I should say train wreck)?

I am gathering the information required for the initiation of a re-call process, personally speaking.

Lorraine

[Howard Troxler]

Hi Lorraine! The recall requirements are laid out in state statute... hold on and I might be able to find the chapter and verse...

[justme]

Good points Howard (on the stadium) but right now the economy is in the toilet. Business's are closing up. Sales are down, heck don't try to sell a pickup or SUV nobody wants them. Who needs more shops (heck I dont even make it to Tyrone Mall)? Do we seriously need more condo's? Gas prices are soaring so not many people go places. I just don't see it until our economy starts to improve. Until we start improving I am sure as heck not gonna vote (IF I am given that opportunity) for a new stadium. But then I have said it before and I will say it again. Professional Sports should be private enterprise and not at the hands of the tax payers.

[Jonny Anonny]

I'm actually less interested in whether or not I'll be paying new taxes (unlike my fellow posters, I'm afraid), but a whole lot more interested in what, exactly, is entailed in the "new and better car," as you say, Howard.
I've seen the very nice graphics and artist's renderings. But they're going to have to sell me some more. A lot more.

[Howard Troxler]

justme, in fairness, I think we have to consider the Tropicana redevelopment over several real-estate cycles, taking the long view....

[Howard Troxler]

100.361 Municipal recall.--

(1) RECALL PETITION.--Any member of the governing body of a municipality or charter county, hereinafter referred to in this section as "municipality," may be removed from office by the electors of the municipality....

[justme]

A new stadium is only as good as the piece of papers is drawn on. It can be always be crumpled up and tossed away.

[Jonny Anonny]

Fair enough, justme, fair enough.

You might want to have Aaron check on the status of support for some of the "100 businesses" collected in support of the stadium issue by the Fans for a Waterfront Stadium. I hear that some of them are back-peddling because of loss of business from customers protesting their support. Can't confirm, might be worth a story if true.

Lorraine

[Howard Troxler]

Hey, wouldn't it be fun to have a recall election and a stadium referendum at the same time?

Or, maybe they could draw up the referendum this way: Either the stadium passes, or every City Council member who voted for the referendum is automatically removed?

Just kiddin'.

I think.

[justme]

ROTFLMAO... Howard !!

Thanks Howard for the petition language. Lorraine

[Howard Troxler]

re: crumpled piece of paper: That's a whole 'NOTHER barrel of monkeys to deal with -- the actual terms negotiated between the Rays and the city for the lease, stadium construction, etc.

On the one side of this deal: the Smartest Stadium Negotiators In the World.

On the other side: Good Ol' St. Pete.

Me, I think we should hire the Clint Eastwood of negotiators.

[justme]

I am not surprised on that one Lorraine.. btw.. "Hi!"

[Howard Troxler]

Lorraine, there's a lot more to that recall chapter, looks pretty interesting.

[Howard Troxler]

Also, if you timed it right, they HAVE to hold the recall on the same day as the referendum:

"at the same time as any other general or special election held within the period"

[justme]

Now your talkin Howard. The thing of it is.. local construction workers want to see the new stadium because they think they will get work. But how much does anyone want to bet they would bring in crews from outside Florida?

"Hey, wouldn't it be fun to have a recall election and a stadium referendum at the same time?"

There's been absolutely nothing fun about this for me. It's a deadly serious issue, and I've been heartily disturbed by couching this as a "fun battle" instead of what it truly is.........bad government from the get-go. You said it yourself AT FIRST, Howard. DO OVER.....Lorraine

[Pablo]

Your comment about signs this morning was accurate but not complete. Yes, they get stolen. Yes, the city confiscates signs that violate city regs. But when entire neighborhoods have legally placed signs removed at the same time, it seems more organized than random prankishness (is that a word?).

[justme]

can we recall baker or just baker act him? LOL

[Howard Troxler]

Dang, it is just after 1 p.m.... but I am holdin' the door open for a while for anybody to say anything else they'd like...

Hey, justme!

Lorraine

[Howard Troxler]

Now, Lorraine, I know for a fact that you have a certain joie de guerre. You did for Brooker Creek and many other fights.

Yep, I did say it, and I meant it -- after the city kept the voters in the dark on this for several months, INCLUDING during important land-use hearings, and during city elections, I certainly thought and think that the city owes the taxpayers a "do-over," a new City Council election with all the stakes on the table.

So far, the city has not rushed forward to oblige. So I will be most curious to see how you proceed with the recall.

[justme]

You are right Lorraine about bad government. Unfortunately it seems to be EVERYWHERE. Life is so stressful these days you just have to toss in a lil humor now & then to "de-stress". Laughter is the best medicine.. we need a few laughs tossed in there.. it doesn't mean that most of us are not taking all these issues seriously.

[Howard Troxler]

And, Lorraine, if you can't find any fun in the idea of the City Council's jobs being on the line in a stadium referendum... oh, heck, come on, of COURSE you can. That's the only kind of election we SHOULD have! Let 'em believe it's the right thing to do so much that they stake everything on it.

[Howard Troxler]

In fact, I seem to recall an ancient society where the proposer of a measure was executed if it didn't pass.... not that I am advocating THAT. :)

Stay tuned..............thanks for saying "hi" Howard!

Lorraine

PS....what does certain joie de guerre mean, by the way? Don't know that one.....

[justme]

HOWARD ! ! OMG you are bad.. (your 1:11 comment) LMAO

[Howard Troxler]

Look at FDR, JFK, Reagan, Clinton, even our own Lawton Chiles... they had a great deal of fun and joy in the battle, in the bare-knuckled political fight.

[Howard Troxler]

Literally, "joy of war," more metaphorically, to relish a good fight.

Add Teddy Roosevelt to that list, maybe Truman too.

And, Lorraine, if you can't find any fun in the idea of the City Council's jobs being on the line in a stadium referendum... oh, heck, come on, of COURSE you can. That's the only kind of election we SHOULD have! Let 'em believe it's the right thing to do so much that they stake everything on it.

OK, I'm coming around...........you could start us off with a column along those lines...

Lorraine

[Howard Troxler]

Re: column: That's a definite possibility, leading up to the June 5 preliminary decision on whether to have an election.

Also I will ask a lawyer about my "contingent" recall -- that we could put a petition on the ballot effecting the recal if the stadium DIDN'T pass! (grin)

I figure, if it DID pass, well, fair is fair...

Ah, relishing the fight..well Howard, with all the battles behind me, this one will be the biggest test. Not that I'm alone, but some plans are ONLY my own............I'm most assuredly thinking.............

Lorraine

[Howard Troxler]

Okay, it's now 1:15. Any last words?

[justme]

Time for me to actually do some real work for what I get paid for. Ya'll have a WONDERFUL day! I look forward to next week.
I need a nap.

[Howard Troxler]

Thanks to everyone who stopped by for today's chat, or who offered a pre-filed comment or question. It was fun.

I hope you can stop by for next week's chat!

Best,
Howard

[Danny Boy]

Man, here I am at Aaron's page when the real fun is in here. Winding down eh? Maybe I'll hijack the chat earlier and we can seriously discuss the new stadium.

Thanks, Howard, for the chat. I'll be waiting for that column!!

Lorraine

I love you all!

[sheila goehrig]

Howard, I wish you would write about the Verizon Fios rip off. When I ordered thison Feb 22, 2008 the promised methat I would have 3 boxes free, Every month I have to call to have my bill adjusted, as they bill me for 4 standard def boxes. Today was no exception, I waited 1 hour and 5 miutes to speak to a superisor. She informed me that my agreementwith them was for only 2 free. I asked for a copy of my agreement, that she cannot do. Since when do we have to pay $16.63 in taxes, fees and other charges.

[guy]

This is funny:

I am Comments 101

[ENough]

I know it is real late in the day, but I am all for city administrators losing their jobs. Especially double dippers, "deputy mayors" and dead-wood parks/rec department supervisors. Did you know that the managment at Woodlawn are affectionalely known as wood-lice? And that "service" has been taken out of Public Service? Employees are instructed to squeeze every cent they can out of the public.

[Don Mott]

Lorraine, You go girl! Howard, your comment about a Clint Eastwood negotiator is right on. The council is facing some real slick experience and I hope they don't just roll over so Stu and his boys can rub their belly with false promises and predictions.