I'm hidin' in the mountains...

Hello and happy Tuesday. Like Dick Cheney, I'm at an undisclosed location this week, which means no live chat today... my apologies and regrets.

Comments

[David Mathews]

Enjoy the mountains, Mr. Troxler!

Saudi Arabia increased oil production by 200,000 bpd and oil prices are rising again, to $138 so far and soon to skyrocket to catastrophic levels.

Tourism is going to suffer for two reasons:

1. The end of cheap gasoline will curtail car travel.

2. The end of cheap oil is going to eradicate the airline industry.

In order to appreciate the full scale of the airline castrophe, read the report:

“Beyond the Airlines’ $2 Can of Coke: Catastrophic Impact on the U.S. Economy from Oilprice
Trauma in the Airline Industry”

http://businesstravelcoalition.com/campaigns/consolidation/beyond_$2_coke.pdf

There is nothing whatsoever that the government can do to stop the airline industry from collapsing. Peak Oil has occurred. The price of oil has nowhere to go except up.

So Florida's economy is also going to collapse.

Why then is St. Petersburg doing something so foolish as building a new stadium? That money would be better used setting up a robust public transportation system with sufficient capacity to replace the automobile.

Baseball is wonderful and the Rays are winning (great!) but this region should have different priorities. How will St. Petersburg evacuate from a hurricane in the post-auto era?

If St. Petersburg fails to plan for the post-auto future this area is going to suffer a catastrophe worse than Hurricane Katrina. Too bad the government is obsessed with baseball!

http://www.geocities.com/dmathew1/enviro.html

[chris]

Well said David,

They don't care. The State and Federal government care about only two things, taxes and taxes from oil revenue. The people are disposable because every year the population grows and makes up for the loses suffered at the hands of previous generations wisdom, and failer to give in.

[Rich]

David,

This is the same doom and gloom stuff they predicted during the last oil crisis back in the 70's. It's also the same doom and gloom they spouted during the California energy crisis in 2001. Remember how that turned out? A huge energy bill written by Cheney and the energy industry passed easily due to the scare mongering and the manipulation of the energy markets by enron.

You mention the current increases in production but you fail to mention the 1.2M barrels per day cut in late 2006 and the .5M barrels per day cut in early 2007. Not to mention Iraq is producing .5M barrels per day less than they did prewar.

You also fail to mention the extra 3.25M barrels per day in demand that comes from index investors. If the legislation that is being proposed passes by the end of the year, the price of oil will plummet. Unfortunately they don't see the need to pass it before their 4th of July recess.

The airline industry collapses every 15 years. It's more a function of their business models than it is the price of oil.

[guy]

What do you guy's have against Cheney except he is smart and a poor shot?????
Cheney, Bush, Cheney, Bush.
They are not the problem, wake up people.

[guy]

If I were Bush or Cheney I'd get a mistress named "Katrina"\
LOL

[Jim Johnson]

Rich

The government collects taxes from gasoline. Conservation is not good for government and it isnt good for the retailers who depend on the sale of crap when you buy gas.

So politicians are caught between a rock and a hard place. Whatever they do will make someone (oil companies or retailers/local government) mad.

Look for nuthin much to happen until the depression in 2009. Then we can blame it on Obama.

[guy]

If Obamamie gets elected you wont have to worry about gas prices.
More like ammunition~~~

[gal]

If McSame gets elected you wont have to worry about gas prices.

More like countless more young American men and women dying for corporate profit and daddy's revenge.

[guy]

Dear Gal did you get my Email this AM

[Rich]

That's laughable that the 2 leaders of this country have nothing to do with energy policy.

I guess it's just a coincidence that McCain now wants states to decide on their own about drilling off the coasts when he has been opposed all along.

Did you know that in this new energy bill, written by the industry itself, there are provisions that allow for oil companies to pay states .44 cents for every dollar they would have to pay the federal government to drill on their land? That saves them 66% if the states decide to let them drill.

Did you know that the oil companies will now pay states in oil instead of dollars? And that the states will have to gift the oil to the federal governemnt with no payment?

Jim,

I guess that's why Exxon is now selling it retail stations.

[Jim Johnson]

Rich

The stations have nuthin to do with the oil. Energy companies are diversified. They buy oil, ship oil, sell oil, refine oil, own coal mines and uranium mines, etc. Most oil companies franchise their name to private convenience stores.

7-11 is dumping its chain to Indians.

[guy]

One of the most aggravating things about having been a good soldier, a patriotic American, and a hard working family person is that you really don’t have the time to dabble in politics until you retire, and then find out what a bunch of idiots it is you have been fighting and working for, are now taking away the rights of the people right here at home, in the name of greenhouse gases or some other good cause.
These retarded people have found more authority in being total losers, than they ever could being a good steward of my interests.
Try these names out if you don’t believe me.
Chuck Schumer,
Pat Leahy,
Diane Feinstein,
Harry Reid,
Nancy Pelosi,
Barbara Boxer,
Dick Durbin.
These people are now all in leadership positions and are controlling our country.
Bush and Cheney????

[Rich]

Jim,

Most just use the name but Exxon is selling their last 2,220 company owned stores.

http://uk.reuters.com/article/pressReleases/idUKN1248232220080612

Guy,

I agree with those sentiments and it goes for both sides of the aisle. Special interests own our government. They write all the bills for their benefit.It just so happens energy and defense are 2 of the biggest contributors to Bush/Cheney.

[guy]

They contribute to Bush/Cheney cause they are smart.

But what about the ship of fools that I listed??????

guy is your typical Ill-informed Delusional Indignant Opposition Troll… aka: Idiot

If Osama Been Forgotten had an “R” next to his name, guy would vote for him for POTUS.

[Jim Johnson]

Guy

Youre never an idiot for honoring your nation and home with service to it. The problem is the nation doesnt honor you in return. That is, America is worthy of your blood and treasure, but you arent worthy of a decent job, education, or place to hang your hat, not in the minds of most Americans, anyway. Britney and Miley are America's real heroes.

[guy]

Oh My I touched a nerve

[guy]

Thats true Jim,
But I never asked anything for free, the opportunity was there if I wanted to work for it.
In fact I did very good considering.

[guy]

Some people can be very brave when you can't see them no name.

Stop posting to yourself, it's strange. Besides, I don't think you can "see" anyone who posts on these blogs... can you?

ooops, gotta go, black helicopters and all...

[Howard Troxler]

It is very peaceful up here.

Greetings,

First, I would like to advise that the Tourist Development Council is having a workshop on the Rays Stadium proposal on July 8 from 9:00 to 11:00 at the Epicenter Collaborative Labs (Tropic Lab - 2nd floor) at 13805 58th St. N., Clearwater which is open to the public. This is one day PRIOR to the TDC vote...I'm planning to attend as there may be several important issues raised at this discussion prior to an actual policy vote on the bed tax the next day by the TDC.

Second, I had a very informative conversation with Pinellas County legal this afternoon. I've been mulling over in my mind for weeks now the seeming inconsistency of a current BOCC being able to vote on a legally binding commitment for a future BOCC in order to enter into a new inter local agreement and commitment to an extension of the bed tax component to fund a new stadium. And apparently, my musings were correct. The August 5th vote by this BOCC could only support a conceptual policy directive if in the positive for the extension of the bed tax.....THERE WOULD BE NOTHING LEGALLY BINDING ABOUT THAT VOTE.

As I understand it, the county has been advised by the Ray's that the SOONEST a complete financial picture including the solution of the Trop debt service issue could be presented to all would be NOVEMBER OF 2009. If all of the MANY MANY unknowns were settled and revealed at that time, AND the then sitting BOCC still wished to proceed with that policy advisement, ONLY THEN would legal be tasked with the work of trying to write a contract of financial commitment through the use of the vehicle of a NEW inter local agreement between the city of St. Petersburg and the county.

And, if the County cannot legally commit future tax revenues of future BOCC’S to build the Rays a new stadium, how can today’s St. Petersburg City Council legally commit future tax revenues of future City Council’s to build the Rays a new stadium next year? Exactly where would the upfront dollars of $450 million come from to build this new stadium if neither governmental entity has any new revenue source (County TDC dollars, City excise tax) to pledge?

In point of fact, we WILL NOT KNOW THIS YEAR OR POSSIBLY NOT UNTIL 2010 IF COUNTY MONEY IS TRULY ASSURED. I think that this is a huge realization to absorb. Doing business in this "chicken before the egg" manner leaves the City of St. Petersburg, the Rays, the developers and the TAX PAYING CITIZEN with too large a vacuum of information to propose ANY kind of referendum vote this year.....ESPECIALLY in light of the likely HUGE AND SUSTAINING NO VOTE to come. Our City Council would NOT be able to look us in the eye and tell us "the money is there for this deal, just vote on leasing this land to the Rays. This is a disastrous way to make public policy.................and I surely hope that all parties concerned finally understand that this isn't AND WAS NEVER the way to do business for the citizen's of St. Petersburg and Pinellas County at large.......no assured benefit or even FINANCING.....would you run your business or home budgetary needs in this fashion???......do we want to end up with egg on our face, with the Rays holding a lease on our waterfront land AND NO MONEY TO BUILD THE STADIUM??? What happens then??

Lorraine

Howard,

I'm glad that you are getting some peace. I hope that means that all of your family are well.......and Louie.............

Lorraine

[Kathleen]

City Council should suspend its consideration of redeveloping the Tropicana Field parking lots until it has fully evaluated the extent and cost of environmental remediation and identified sources of revenue to clean it up. No elected official who has thus far facilitated this Rays fiasco should ever be reelected to any future public office. Fiscally irresponsible!

[Jon McPhee]

A strong second to Lorraine's latest post, Mr. Troxler. Blessings on you and your family. And thank you for your lonely searchlight down here in the darkness.

[Bland]

Howard,

From the beginning I thought Rays and City would go to a Plan B.

Now what will it be? Redevelop the existing stadium? Build a new stadium next to the Trop? Build at the Toy Town Landfill?

There was no way that stadium was going down town on the water.

Next batter.

[Rich]

I'm interested to hear peoples' thoughts on Jabil Circuit and the article today. Would it make more sense for St Pete to give them the $35M in tax breaks to keep them and their 1,900 jobs or to build a $450M stadium with the jobs that the Rays offer?

[justme]

Hi Howard, I hope you are enjoying your time in the mountains. I am very jealous.

Hi to everyone else. I just want to Thank everyone for their input on the Stadium deal, this has been very educational.

I think we need to oust Mayor Baker and his cronies who have their own personal agenda and most of it is not on the same page as the tax payers. Hey Lorraine I think you would make a great Mayor. BTW Lorraine thank you for all your hard work & research. Keep up the good work.

[Bland]

Rich,

I wonder how much the run up in property taxes over the last eight-(8) years had to do with Jabil's consideration to move.

This would be county, education, and city. Unlike the SOH for homestead property, commercial property just rose every year with the market. It has driven many a small business out of the area and state.

Could this be the real problem?

I do agree, that amount of high paying jobs has a larger economic affect than a new baseball stadium.

What do the others think?

[guy]

The Ray's Have folded their waterfront fiasco.
We can thank POWW and many people on this blog site.
There is a God.

[Hammer]

OK, here’s the questions of the day; Does a “blog-shake” constitute a contract?

I think it was either Chuck or guy who took my wager offering of 100-1 odds that the Rays deal does not make it to the November ballot. And took it, mind you, for $1000.

Shall we exchange phone numbers and banking information?

I'm guessing Rick K. is having a bad day!

[guy]

It was Chuck, Hammer

[Hammer]

Thank you guy,

... Oh Chuck! Forget "daddy needs a new car"... Hammer's digging some season tickets for the Rays, at the Trop!

Better still, if Chuck actually pays... I'll buy a suite for the season and call it "The Trox Box!"

... and you're all invited!

[guy]

Chuck is a man of his word.
A real straight shooter.

[Chris Jenkins]

I agree. I think Chuck has always handled himself as a real stand up guy. I don't think he'd welch on that bet.

See you at the Trox Box!

[Jim Johnson]

Is Howard making guest appearances here again? Youre worse than Johnny Carson.

[Don in St. Pete]

Howard, I hope you're enjoying the cool mountain air while we swelter in 93 degrees and 90% humidity. It's worth it to see the Waterfront Stadium proposal losing steam and the Governor buy 292 square miles for Everglades restoration.

Justme,

Thanks for the mayoral plug....NOT FOR ME. I find that being an independent pain in the government's butt CAN be an effective way to participate in a democratic government. The news conferences is just about to come on............I believe that Baynews9 is airing the conference LIVE.

This isn't done yet..Al Lang MUST now be protected from ANY thoughts of this nature from ever being contemplated again.......to repeat, I'm not done with this deal yet.

Lorraine

[guy]

Lorraine~~ I think it is really important that the people get to vote on both the use of Al Lang, and tearing down the dome.
So if you care to accept your mission~~~~~~~

And If I can be of help

[Hammer]

To be clear, I only believed it would not make it to THIS November’s Ballot. I absolutely believe it is far from over.

[guy]

Hammer ~ As long as Baker sits on the throne watch your wallet.

I personally like Steve Lange for Mayor.
He is savvy and Honest.
Parties should not come into politica here in the city.

[The Dude]

Rich,

The gloom and doom theories can not be compared with the 1970s. China and India were not world economic powers they are now and did not have more than two billion future drive thru customers wanting their Big Macs and SUVs. We are competing on a global scale now and we need to rethink our positions. If the answers is, "well in the 1970s it rebounded and it will rebound again," the answer is extremely short-sided and naive.

The Dude

guy,

I haven't seen anything on Lange, but thanks for the info, I will look into him.

From my perspective, all city and county offices’ should be non-partisan, and have publicly funded campaigns with NO special interest influence.

Partisan money has turned Pinellas into a very dirt town.

[Hammer]

sorry, that was me!

[justme]

Lorraine.. LMAO.. keep being a pain in the Governments butt. I agree 100% on the Al Lang deal with you. Please let me know if I can be of any help.
As a pure St Pete native its a part of my history and to see it go bye bye would be heart breaking.

[justme]

OK.. who ordered this storm to come in at 5 o'clock? I guess I will just stay at work a lil bit longer. I'm not going out there when I see lightning and hear the Thunder at the same time.. I would be insane.. I already know I am crazy.. just haven't quite crossed that line to insanity.. YET!!! ha ha ha..

[justme]

Hey Mr Hiding in the mountains (yes, I am still jealous).. you picked a fine time to go hide. What's your take on the Ray's pulling out?

btw.. Hi Louie.. woof

[coincidence?]

Howard,

Enjoy yourself ... your not mising any major state or local news. Well that is if your absence allows you to be involved in the Everglades deal and the Rays withdrawal.

[guy]

JustMe I'm glad to see there are still those who are not afraid to put in a little overtime LOL

[guy]

Howard while you were up in the Grand Tetons lying in the shade, Lorraine and I got the Ray's to pull back their offence for a year or two.
Hows that for missing you????

Guy says:

"Lorraine~~ I think it is really important that the people get to vote on both the use of Al Lang, and tearing down the dome.
So if you care to accept your mission~~~~~~~"

And If I can be of help

Guy, Justme, and all.

We the people have a voice when and IF we choose to USE it. You don't need me................look in the mirror and then YOU have the power. But if you feel more comfortable, I'm there.

What a day!!

Lorraine

[Kathleen]

Stop the insanity now.

[Jim Johnson]

DUDE

The issue isnt global competition. What we've done is sent our jobs overseas for kids to do. We can 'compete' if we close the schools and send our kids to work in factories. Or stop regulating and taxing business. No workman's comp, no OSHA, no unemployment, no social security, no overtime, no toilets, no affirmative action, no accommodating cripples.

We can compete with anyone if we're willing to live in refrigerator boxes and eat dog meat.

[Rich]

Dude,

No doubt we need to invest in alternative technologies for the future but if you think the reason for oil to go from $50 barrel to $140 barrel in the last 18 months is due to demand from China or India then I think you are a little naive.

Demand is growing far greater from one segment of the market and that is index investors. They allocated $13B to commodities in 2003 compared to $260B as of last March. That's a 2,000% increase in demand for all commodities of which 40% of that goes into oil. They are now buying 3.25M barrels per day off of the futures market. If they were a country, that would rank them 4th in the world for consumption. They are buying 1M barrels per day more than the entire country of India.

Expect the price of oil to continue higher until they close the loophole that is allowing these institutional investors to buy over the position limits that are allowed on the markets.

China's demand has grown a total of 36% since 2003 while India's demand has grown a total of 16% since 2003. Compare that to the 2,000% increase in demand for oil from the index investors and I think it's obvious who is causing the disruptions in the oil markets.

Base per-gallon pricing on vehicle fuel efficiency ratings.

Problem Solved!

[Hammer]

Chuck owes me 100K!

[Chris Jenkins]

Hammer, what do you see coming next?

Well,

We're at stage two........the boondoggle withdrawn, but the future considerations are before us (protection of the Al Lang site, etc.). Many "players on the field" who's time, heart and energy were spent reviewing this issue are noted below. Folks who will by no means give up their voice to the "Chamber of Commerce" crowd nor Progress Energy CEO Jeff Lyash. I don't really remember hearing his voice the last seven months, do you? And of course, Mr. Lyash's company Progress Energy is a major corporate sponsor of the Rays Franchise........can we sniff naming rights in this appointment by Mayor Baker??

Here are a few of the REAL community players who got us to this point.......... goodness, Chamber of Commerce had yet to announce their qualified judgement....BUT THEY GET FIRST DIBS ON THE TASK FORCE? Sorry, we've learned a thing or two about CORPORATE WELFARE..........I think that we'd better see REAL community folks from neighborhoods both city AND county, the environmental community and otherwise for us to believe that the task force is REAL. We want the Rays to stay.....but on the voter's terms. Some of the real deal players.....who made a move and didn't wait for the political winds to blow by and instruct them.


CONA
POWW!
Council of North County Neighborhoods
Barrier Islands Government Council "Big C"
Tourist Development Council
Agency on Bay Management
Fans for a Waterfront Stadium
FORMER ST. PETE CITY COUNCIL MEMBER BILL FOSTER
Several Pinellas County Commissioners .
Current St. Pete City Council members Herb Polson and Leslie Curran (the only two NO votes that I know of)
Sierra Club
St. Petersburg Audubon Society
Pinellas Chapter Florida Native Plant Society
Alliance for a Livable Pinellas
Surfriders

I'm forgetting some, so please forgive me......but let us all not forget a whole host of common citizens who made their voices known and were part of this action...FAR from over with the waterfront stadium site STILL on the table so says Jeff Lyash and Mayor Rick Baker.

Lorraine

[Buzzard]

Ain't gonna be no waterfront stadium. Never was. Oh, what a tangled web.

[Bland]

Lorraine and All,

Now on to Plan B.

I agree with Buzzard, never did think stadium would be built on waterfront.

Rays will work a deal for new stadium at Toy Town Landfill, Derby Lanes, or next to present site.

Believe me, the citizens, will not get to vote on these options if the City Council and County Commission can have their way. And they can.

Hang on, it's going to be a bumpy ride.

Bland,

I think that you are correct (add in the St. Pete/Clearwater airport possibility). BUT, I won't take that chance, nor will many others JUST IN CASE re: the waterfront site.

I'm not worried about a Toytown vote happening.......for me personally it's always been about the waterfront being environmentally inappropriate with the component of dredging and filling the bay most particularly. Secondarily for ME came the contamination at the Trop site and the cost and responsibility of clean-up and future liability for the city. I can most certainly live with the Toytown site since the developers there have already accepted the remediation costs and liability, And, if the TDC wants to tax their own beds to gain a multi-use facility site that would accommodate baseball AND conventions AND concerts AND Home Shows, etc., the convention center type builds that county REALLY wants, THAT makes sense to me as a flow for public money as it's isolated to the hoteliers!!

In addition, a facility of THAT kind WOULD very likely generate gobs of money through heavy use opportunities. Just like the St. Pete Times Forum. The Forum is the SECOND MOST SUCCESSFUL CONCERT VENUE IN THE WORLD, do you believe it?? I believe that it is used in one way or another something like 300 days a year or more. As a result, EVEN though the Lightning lose 10-15 MILL a year, who cares?? The facility more than makes up for that as a money generator with the other uses.

I've said Toy town is the place WAY BACK WHEN..because I knew that the Rays would get a new stadium by hook or by crook eventually....BUT NOT ON OUR WATERFRONT, and preferably not with our city tax. Heck, PE has gobs of money, let them help foot some of the bill since it will probably be called Progress Energy Stadium anyway.........and conjoin that with the bed tax extension and a LOT MORE MONEY FROM THE RAYS. One other bennie?...although Pinellas County owned land, it IS in the City of St. Petersburg. The perfect "togetherness" that city and county could enjoy!!

Lorraine

[Hammer]

Toytown has more environmental issues than the Trop…. a lot more.

They pulled back because of the local political scene. Too many new faces, and some very informed one’s as well. They didn’t want this bantered about at the upcoming public forums and debates. It would only open the incumbents up to unprecedented scrutiny with the “what did you know and when” question. This move allows them to use the “I would have never let it happen, so re-elect me – and – we’ll have to wait to see what the Rays propose, and therefore you need me” approach.

Like I’ve said, this deal was over some months ago, and we’ve been engaged in a taxpayer funded campaign strategy. And Lorraine… half of your thank you list is in it up to their necks.

That said; I don’t think you can cut the waterfront out of the picture just yet. The airport is an interesting thought, but I don’t see that happening. Too mush “underutilized” economic potential.

Bland is correct in that they will work the books hard to find a way to cut the voters out of this completely. Depending on local election results… that can go easy or not at all.

I still say my plan is worth a tumble. Plus, I want my 100k from Chuck to buy that Trox Box for a season.

[guy]

I guess it wouldn't be too popular right now to ask for drilling for oil on Al Lang !!!!

[Chris Jenkins]

Hammer,
you speak with some insider knowledge, and we've discussed before your concerns for being dismissed because of your identity.

I'm interested in hearing more about your perspective, but I think you are limiting what you do post here. Any chance of some additional info?

cjenkins@flmediasolutions.com

Hammer says:

"Toytown has more environmental issues than the Trop…. a lot more. "

I am completely aware of that....I have public record data and I WAS ONE THE ONLY FOLKS YEARS BACK WHO WARNED ABOUT TOY TOWN....here's some postings that I made to this Times Toy town blog along with a few other folks when the ITSYOURTIMES.COM used to be a good blog venue.....

http://www.itsyourtimes.com/?q=node/3144

but I am truly tired of no name posters telling us what we should do. Give me facts, names, pdf file links, and a COURSE OF DIRECTION. Why give us all hints if you care???
You want to talk to me, and others, and help us???......ask Howard when he comes back to get us in touch, Hammer. I don't know you, who you are, your phone number nor your email.........just like Bland. Vague hints and whispered rumor do nothing to help the cause OR the environment.

You know something???....say it plain.........or you do nothing to help these causes.

Lorraine

[Hammer]

OK, ease up Tiger Lily!

I do have a name, and it's Hammer. And it is a pseudonym because if I post my real name, substantive discussion ends for me. I suspect several people who monitor Howard’s blog (and believe me, there are many… to Howard’s credit I might add) have already made educated guesses as to who Hammer is. And I submit that most of the people who blog here will know within about a month to a month and ½ at most. I’M NOT THE BAD GUY! … sorry, I got excited there for a moment. But enough about that; take it or leave it.

I know exactly what these folks are planning. Frankly, and at the risk of seeming immodest, I usually know what they’re going to do before they do. And it’s because I’ve watched and studied the politics and policy of this county for years. Make no mistake about it, and again at the risk of appearing immodest… the publicizing of my plan blew a hole in theirs. And to be clear; I love the Rays… but I abhor tax dollar abuse more.

Bland is dead-nut-on with his comments. The powers that be want this nowhere near the voters. Pay close attention to the ”coalition” appointees and you’ll figure it out as well. Remember, the only reason it was going on the ballot was due to the waterfront property and the Comprehensive Plan. Without that, no “vote of the people” is needed. And there are many local politicians that are at the end of their career here, and have nothing to answer for going forward. You do the math. A 6-1, 5-2, 4-3, vote gets it done respective to the body.

Now, tomorrow… I’ll be at the Trop to buy tickets for the Boston series. Because as I’ve stated; I love the Rays. But I am in complete agreement with Howard on this… if we taxpayers are going to be on the hook for guaranteed financing, then we taxpayers need a guarantee on the return. If that means full or partial ownership… then it is what it is… deal with it. It’s called mutually beneficial compromise.

… just my thoughts!

[Susie Q]

A referendum can be placed on the ballot by the citizens of St. Pete any time on any issue. Wake up St. Pete and read the City Charter. We do not have to ask the City or need the City to do it for us. All you need is a few signatures and a few volunteers to get the signatures and wolla! It can be done. (Please keep this a secret and make sure not to tell the Rays, Mayor Baker or Mr. Lyash. It might scare them to death to think the the people are really running the city and not them.) Oops, did I just say all of that out loud?

[Buzzard]

Well said, Susie Q.

Great quote for Council and Mayor Baker:

"It is difficult to get a man (or woman) to understand something, when his job depends on his or (her) not understanding it."
Upton Sinclair

It's not a "FEW" signature's to gather..it's a little over 16,000 and I believe you have about 6 months to accomplish that signature total necessary to get referendum language put on the ballot, just to let you know Susie Q. Why it was so horribly annoying that the Rays could just ASK for a referendum from our city council.........THEY should have had to go out and get 16,000 signatures themselves, just like you or I would.

So believe me, every nuance of this next level of process will be examined with a fine tooth comb......anyone who thinks that folks are "happy and quiescent" now with the "good" news doesn't give us proper credit.

As much as some of us thought we knew...we've learned a LOT about evil in government and the corporate board room. We won'b caught napping, of that I can assure you.

Lorraine

[Hammer]

"We won'b caught napping, of that I can assure you."

Bottom line, Lorraine... well stated.

[guy]

Lorraine I learn more from you than I did from my 12th grade social Studies teacher.
Thank you

[guy]

Perhaps there could be a way to gather signature's that are usable via the internet????

Guy says:

"Perhaps there could be a way to gather signature's that are usable via the Internet????"

No, they must be hard copy......and don't forget, a GOOD lawyer is required to define and write the language to pass legal muster of the supervisor of elections as well where such a document for collecting signatures must be filed..sorry for the misspelling before, Hammer!!

If a citizen initiated charter protection referendum effort begins by anyone that I am associated with, TROXBLOG will be the first to know.....promise!!

Of course, wouldn't it be nice if city council honored the zoning change that was promised through the 2020 visioning process??....but remember that Upton Sinclair quote I noted before.......??

I'm not holding my breath on that one....
Lorraine

[Hammer]

"... wouldn't it be nice if city council honored the zoning change that was promised through the 2020 visioning process?"

Lorraine,

That's extremely perceptive, and will be very telling as to the direction this is headed. I also love the framing going forward, “The community helping the Rays be successful” – i.e.: paying for a new stadium.

It’s like saying that if taxpayers don’t buy Tiger Woods a new set of golf clubs; he won’t be able to win another tournament.

Perhaps they’ll invite you to be part of the Coalition of “Community Leaders” tasked with brining this to fruition.

[Hmmm.]

Looks like some campaigning going on here.

Hammer says:

Perhaps they’ll invite you to be part of the Coalition of “Community Leaders” tasked with brining this to fruition.

HA.......Mayor Baker has despised me since the Kathleen Ford Campaign....and Jeff Lyash knows and probably despises me as well as I was publicly against the new energy bills that were recently passed and spearheaded by Progress Energy to empower the ease with which they "take what they want" when placing transmissions lines or new plant siting's. I was in meetings that I know were directly transmitted to the CEO's regarding my STRONG opposition against placing transmission lines running through conservation areas for the "new Levy nuclear power plant" to come (which we will start to be charged for IN ADVANCE this August, I believe). Yep, this is the guy who will lead the charge to "guard and protect the citizen in the siting and support for a new ballpark".

I don't see much possibility for someone like me to be invited.....although if this new task force were to be a SERIOUS process with TRUE and divergent stakeholders at the table.........folks LIKE me (not necessarily me) would surely be asked to participate. THIS would provide true transparency in the process.....which I certainly don't expect.

Lorraine

[Buzzard]

Susie Q, I'd bet every one of those folks with a stadium sign in their front yard would be more than happy to gather signatures. What do you think?

[Howard Troxler]

Howard here, checking in from Undisclosed Locations. I see that I picked a good week to be away (Everglades, Rays, U.S. Supremes on handguns).

I have missed all the initial stadium reaction but was still thinking a useful column looking ahead to Plan B would say (1) for the love of Pete, no confidentiality agreements, no public proceedings going on as a sham while a secret agreement exists in the background, and (2) whatever the financing is, don't start out by claiming it will "pay for itself" and then come back later with, uh, mumble, by the way, you have to extend your existing taxes for 30 years. Better to start out worst-case and get better, than pie-in-ksy and then get worse...

What do you c'est?

Mysterious Howard......hope you are well, and hope lots of folks pick up on your request for input on this week's updates...........there sure were a lot of them!!

LOVE YOUR COLUMN IDEA.......WE HAVE SURELY MISSED YOU.

Lorraine

[Hammer]

Howard,

Hope you're enjoying your time away. 1 & 2 set up a great outline. Add (3) "How (if) voters would be involved in Plan B"... and for fun, add (4) to remind Chuck he owes me 100K so we can have the Trox Box for next season!

Best to you and yours.

[Bland]

Howard and All,

Your suggestion about an open approach stating realistic public costs for a new stadium is a refreshing idea.

It would be terrific if our local leaders were to do such a thing. All of us are sick of the back room stuff that has been associated with City development, especially the stadium.

I appreciated comments that the powers will not give the voters an opportunity to vote on any future stadium deals. They do not have to, unless, as Suzie Q suggested we got a public referendum on a ballot.

Do you think for a minute the City will allow a public vote on the new Plan B stadium deal? Not a chance.

We are going to see a great dog and pony show from all in the next couple of years and then they will vote for the new stadium, excluding the voters.

Take it to the bank.......

Lorraine, the way I read the City Charter, the kind of referendum covering the future use of Al Lang is not an "initiative" but one that under Section 7 the Council can set up. To get a referendum on initiative, which presumably would be broader than the "glitch fix" fix, in in the other subsection of Section 7.

It is of course a little strange that the Council and Mayor Rick first hide the ball on their discussions with the franchise owners, then tentatively schedule an Al Lang referendum to meet the owners' timeline, and then cancel-cancel-cancel it at the owners' request. Who drives this truck anyway?

If there's going to be an effort to put an initiative-style referendum on any general ballot, you have the right idea about the need for careful attention to state and local charter requirements. And there will be lots of fun in just figuring out the outline of what to put before the public. "We" don't get to address budget and pay issues, under the charter, whatever they are.

It's probably too late to push for clear categorization of the parties here -- but it would be nice if henceforth people distinguished between "the Rays," the actual on the field players and coaches and such, and "the franchise owners" who want that new $10 million "team office" as another scalp on the belt.

One can like and feel good about and root for "the Team" and not have to get warm and fuzzy about "the franchise owners" too.

[Kathleen]

Perhaps all of those businesses which derive so much economic benefit from MLB should "step up to the plate" and pay for the new stadium. Condominiumize the new stadium and let them pay for the construction and maintenance expenses. Previously, baseball team owners owned their stadiums, too. If no public assets or revenues are used the RAys owners can meet and talk about it anytime with any other joint owner they want to without having to deal with the pesky public taxpayers. Build your stadium with your own money! If you can justify that expense to your shareholders and rate payers fine, but my business expenses with Rays' tickets could not be justified.

[Kathleen]

Instead of handing the "economic development" dollars, (what is it $11 million/year to the Rays' stadium/baseball?) How about using that money for a "micro lending program" to help individuals learn how to use their labor to create their own capital? You know real economic development rather than the Chamber's self interested money grabs? Just a thought!

[Sween]

Isn't Steve Raymund's business in CLEARWATER?

[guy]

Howard ~ We are doing just fine without you.
In fact, everything has improved.
We are even going to get a water mist system for Al Lang Field.
Mayor Baker was hit in the head by a foul ball off of Evan Longoria's bat, and the "Ray's" are changing their name to the "Oilers".
While sitting around with all those ol mountaineers, slugging down moonshine, you have had the most hits on your smallest caption ever, "Im hiding in the Mountains",
With Dick Cheney?????????

"While sitting around with all those ol mountaineers, slugging down moonshine..."

So, you have been paying attention to Pinellas Politics.

[guy]

Bland is right on target.

People like poww should now get even more active and wary.

We should insist that someone on the vast ship of fools we call city hall, tries to land a new spring training team for Al Lang, or even the Trop.
The Ray's deserted us there.

I am for using the Trop til it gets Moldy.

[guy]

This should kick start some comments!!!!!

After 238 years, they finally figured out what amwndment #2 meant.
And they still have 4 people on the court who dis-agree ~~~~~~~~~~~~ sad..

[Lorraine]

Hey Howard, I've go a question.................

It was Mayor Baker who appointed Jeff Lyash, right? And Mayor Baker and Commissioner Stewart will appoint the rest of the baseball task force, right? SO, does this mean that negotiations for financing and siting a new stadium have been delegated by Pinellas County and the City of St. Pete officials to this task force? BECAUSE, if that's the case, shouldn't ALL deliberations be in the sunshine with public viewing of the deliberations AND with public records being kept as well??

Lorraine

Hint!

"Mayor Baker and Commissioner Stewart"

One termed-out and owned by the boys from NY, and the other responsible for the original "screw the people" vote on the TROP... and retiring.

...hmmmmmmm

[Hammer]

1:40 is feelin' me! Like I said:

"Pay close attention to the ”coalition” appointees and you’ll figure it out as well." ... "Without that, no “vote of the people” is needed. And there are many local politicians that are at the end of their career here, and have nothing to answer for going forward."

BTW: I have tickets for Wednesday's game, right field, near the pen!

GO RAYS!

[Matthew]

Howard, You are absolutely right that everything MUST be in the sunshine this time around. Our City's handling of the Rays scheme was a disgrace and many voters are disgusted with our "elected officials" for letting themselves be jerked around my greedy investors from NYC. They must have thought were a bunch of slow southerners who would not understand what they were trying to pull. I'd like to think that something better will come out of this but we will undoubtedly get just more of the it will "pay for itself" blather and more "we'll get back to you on that" spin that just delays and obfuscates. And if anyone thinks our beloved waterfront has been saved - think again.
Altough the Mayor and Council and even the Rays mouthed platitudes about our sacred waterfront engraved on our hearts - it is still all about money and power. Keep those red signs up, guys, the Rays aren't done with us yet

[Joe Citizen]

Guy -

Don't worry, POWW is on it already!

POWW has extraordinary support - we are particularly proud that red signs appeared city wide, in all kinds of neighborhoods, at all socioeconomic levels, and within a diverse range of cultures. We have received financial support from businesses, wealthy families and individuals, blue caller workers, and even children. That is just fantastic! It gives us joy to know the city is so engaged in determining its own future and that our reach has unlimited appeal.

We attended the press conference and were immensely gratified to hear the Rays say they backed off because of the "public dialog". It was cause for a great celebration that evening!

We are still puzzled by the Times ed board suggesting that citizens should not have jumped ahead to create a public dialog -- odd way of looking at democracy. In fact, it was great to hold those neighborhood meetings with the Fans and the Rays and we very much appreciate their willingness to debate with us. That's what public dialog is about - that's what democracy is about. We love it - every single debate, every civic event, every neighborhood meeting, every rally, talking to thousands of folks who stopped to get signs - it is all so good!

Of course, we have no position on anything relating to the task force at this time except its process ( must be in the Sunshine) and roster. We assume the process will be coordinated honestly and with respect to the voices of all concerned.

The paper never did get POWW right. So, here's an intro: POWW is coordinated by a 15 member steering committee made up of diverse opinions and talents. POWW also has a subsidiary group of persons who advise when asked, but who do not attend the strategy meetings and are not the decisions makers.
We come from varied backgrounds including business, financial, political, city planning, law, sports broadcasting, journalism, art, real estate and technology. Some of us are politically conservative, others are left leaning, most are pretty average middle of the road folks. We range in age from late twenties to early sixties. We hold college degrees, many hold advanced degrees. Some of us have babies who are just toddlers, some have children who are graduating from high school, some of us have no children. Some are offspring of many generations in this city, some have traveled the world through their careers. Our economic diversity is great. And we love baseball!

We work the issue everyday and many times into the wee hours of the morning. We have a large slate of volunteers dedicated to getting our word across, who have worked day after day after day, even when they are dog tired - our success is because of them and we thank them everyday. We even have folks who do our research from as far away as Virginia and Michigan.

Its been the coolest thing you can imagine and we have the energy, desire and dollars to continue working to Save our Wallets and Waterfront.

[Gun Nut]

Guy,

Now that the SCOTUS has attempted to clarify the Second Amendment, yet clearly indicates that restrictions can be placed on the rights of gun ownership, I have a couple questions for you and other gun lovers.

1) How do you feel about armor piercing bullets? Should they be readily available for public purchase or should they be banned?

2) Do you think Assault rifles and other military weapons should be banned? If not, what purpose do these weapons serve?

3) Do you think all gun purchases should be regulated and have the ballistic registered and require liability insurance? If we have to register our cars and are required by law to have insurance, shouldn’t the same be in place for a weapon?

[Susie Q]

Guy:

Answers to your questions.

1.) No

2.) AR-10's and AR-15's yes. Depends on what other weapons you are talking about.

3.) No, no and hell no.

[guy]

Dear Gun Nut,

It just so happens my initials spell GUN'

I believe that the second amendment meant that we should be able to have just as good small arms as the government.
When the dems imposed the ""Assault Weapons Ban""
It was a bunch of people putting laws on guns because of their dangerous appearence.
They knew not what they were doing.
Diane Feinstein has a permit to carry.
The gun laws that have been in place since the 1920's cover about every aspect of firepower.
And ~~~~~

"The West wasn't won with a registered gun."

"God created man, Sam Colt made them equal"

There are more laws on guns than any other object on earth.

You must register a full automatic or a silencer @ a cost of about $260.00 per year.

[guy]

Suzie That was Gun Nut who asked the questions, But your answers are not to my agreement.
You are totally against what the 2nd Amendment is about.
Stay in the kitchen, or let me get you a license to carry so you can go anywhere.

[Susie Q]

Guy, I apologize for naming you instead of Gun Nut. That was a mistake. Sorry.

As for your answer I have all the licenses and other nicities that I need thank you very much. No one is going to take away my second amendment rights without a you know what.

[Happy Day All!]

Just can't let it sit at 99!

[Susie Q]

Lorraine,

I am sorry to network here on this blog so I will simply say I will call you as I have some new important information to share with you. City, Rays and POWW stuff.

[Susie Q]

Did I say recently NO New Waterfront Stadium. Well if not there it is.

[guy]

I'LL bet that was our boss
# 100

[guy]

And Susie K.

[guy]

Oil and sand
So now they want to dig for oil off of our beach‘s.

It is interesting to know that two countries on opposite sides of our planet are producing ethanol and electricity from sugar cane without any problems whatsoever.

Brazil will be exporting $1.3 billion in ethanol a year by 2010, and In January 2003, India made the use of petrol mixed with five per cent ethanol derived mainly from sugarcane, compulsory in nine of its states.

For our country to survive and prosper with today’s unstable fuel supplies, we must attain
flexibility and diversity in adapting the ability to produce ethanol, and electricity from sugar.

With the availability of advanced technologies, sugar factories today can produce
surplus electricity for sale to the national grid or directly to other electricity users.

Florida leads the nation in sugar production, but there has not been a serious discussion anywhere that would lead to even a experimental production plant.

In fact all of the rhetoric has been pessimistic, or they dance around the subject.

Actually Florida should leading the world in this endeavor.

On the scale of products of what percentage of alcohol it contains, sugar #1 at 100%, corn is in the below 30% range.

[guy]

We must close Guantanamo Now.
A list of complaints.

Mohammad Korana age23 Saudi Arabian
I have been so long here I have forgotten everything I learned at Flight school.

Mummad Attal age 25 Palistani
Americans are dumb,. They hang a roll of 1000 sheets of paper next to my water chair, but no pencil.

Shaleke Kotar age 25
They water torture us with this room they call “the shower”, once a week.

Moosha Hadim age 28
American soldiers are not efficient they fail to cut the right hand off of those caught stealing.

Rashi Dahma age unknown
Hospital nurses here do not wear veils, and cover midsections. They do not have the aroma of heated ewe.

Kodji Sukar age 30 Iranian
I miss the smell of the camel dung and they do not give me my oil money.

Somuuch Fordat age 27 Saudi Arabian
The Koran I was given was written in Arabic and I only speak French.

Hari Reyad age 26 Moroccan
I missed my flight on 9/11 and they will not try to get me refund my money.

Sadatu Korsham age 29 Iraqi
American soldiers refuse to send me a young boy to teach the ways of mohamud.

Barishna Bamba age 22 Brooklyn N. Y.
“These mohas took my 9mm and wont give me a TV to watch king of the hill, or big aint bad.”

Progress Energy rate hikes, the CEO is Jeff Lyash (the new stadium task force chair, as created by Mayor Baker), just in case you didn't believe me...the Times today.

Lorraine

http://blogs.tampabay.com/energy/2008/06/progress-ener-1.html

June 27, 2008
Progress Energy plans more fuel rate increases
Progress Energy's fuel rate increase this summer won't be the last, according to documents filed with the Public Service Commission.

The St. Petersburg utility told the commission that it may have to raise bills in January by $5 for 1,000 kilowatt hours to cover the soaring cost of fuel. This comes on top of an increase that the commission is set to consider on Tuesday. Progress Energy has asked for an increase of an additional $12.07 per 1,000 kilowatt hours. If approved, that increase will appear on bills starting Aug. 1.

These increases don't include increases planned by the utility to cover the cost of clean air measures, power plant upgrades and its planned $30-billion nuclear project. Monthly bills are slated to rise just as an increasing number of customers are having their power cut off for not paying their bills, according to Progress Energy and Tampa Electric.

Several utilities throughout the state, including Florida Power & Light, the state's largest utility, have asked for increases to cover the unexpectedly steep rise in the cost of coal, natural gas and oil. The commission will hear those cases Tuesday.

If you are having trouble paying your bills, there's help.

[St. Petersburg Times photo by William Dunkley]

-Asjylyn Loder, Times Staff Writer

[Jon McPhee]

Guy and Gun Nut, maybe we should revise our communities so they look like the Kalashnikov Kultures in Tora Bora and northwest Pakistan. At least the men are always on top.

Firepower equal to the guv'mint? Wher you gonna buy a Predator with Hellfires and the control system and satellite access, bunkie? Let alone your basic Abrams tank or guided missile frigate? Dream on about resisting the guv'mint with your Glock and your .308 and your .50-cal sniper rifle and your stainless Remington pump and even your really-cool, looks like a kid's toy H&K.

Look out, fellas, the Black Choppers are silently circling....

[Jon McPhee]

Hey LET'S ALL JUST KILL EACH OTHER AND LET OUR VARIOUS GODS SORT IT ALL OUT.

That's it Jon. We just need to get that radical Muslim thinking goin on. I want my virgins.

[Don in St. Pete]

Guy, You posted dome good info and asked some good questions, non of which I'm able to answer.

[Hal Freedman]

Please don't compare yourself to Dick Cheney... here is an interesting article from Der Spiegel:

SPIEGEL ONLINE, 06/04/2008
---------------------------------------------------------------------
West Wing: Dick Cheney's Dollhouse
---------------------------------------------------------------------

Only one American politician is less popular than US President George W. Bush: Vice President Dick Cheney. A luncheon at the National Press Club in Washington was meant to highlight the real Cheney. If it was meant to be an exercise in self-incrimination, then it could only be described as a success.

By Gabor Steingart in Washington

You can download the complete article over the Internet at the following URL:
http://www.spiegel.de/international/world/0,1518,557670,00.html

[Hal Freedman]

POWW! is still alive and vigilent! The waterfront must be taken off the table to remove one of our "Ws." Mr. Lyash refused to do this, when queried by Rod Challenger (good question, Rod) at the press conference.

Whether by zoning, historical designation, Charter amendment, or some combination of those, it, and the rest of the waterfront park system, must be protected in perpetuity. Next year marks the 100th anniversery of Mr. Straub's vision, the park system that is the heart and soul of St. petersburg!

Once that is accomplished, location, cost and financing can be discussed in a more rational manner. What is the reluctance on the part of the Rays to give up on the waterfront?

As I understand it, Hal, baseball (MLB more precisely) is moving towards "baseball only" type stadiums, not multi-use. The waterfront sailing stadium FORCES the single use aspect....a total loser situation for revenue generation for the stadium owners, US.

Of course, the county has shown much better smarts, wanting a mid-county retractable roof facility/convention center that would be a HUGE revenue generator for the owners, US.

I'm sure we will now be told that it's not the RAYS who are keeping the waterfront on the table, but that it's "the task force". And of course, we know that Mayor Baker wants to find another use, NOT park, for Al Lang. So, I'm guessing that they will indeed be looking for another spring training team.

Lorraine

[guy]

Jon McPee,
I must say it's not my fault that the founding fathers, wanted to keep guns in the hands of the people in case they had to overthrow a bad government.
Nor that Anton Kalisnikov invented a weapon that went universal in 1947.
But these are undeniably facts.
I thought your calling me an Idiot was beneath anyone on this page.
But I forgive you.
I got back with the MCPEE.
We should not disrespect others because of their views unless they are Democrats.

Guy says:
"We should not disrespect others because of their views unless they are Democrats."

Well, I'm a Dem, Guy....and have many friends and associates who are Repubs....so now I know your heart a bit more clearly....what a shame that one would think in such narrow terms. If that was an attempt to be funny, it's not.

I always think judging individuals and their individual actions are a much better way to formulate opinions of one another. Attitudes like the one you displayed is what makes our country small, not great. When will we ever grow up?

Lorraine

[guy]

Lorraine ~~ There has got to be room for a smile or a joke now and then, you must learn that some things are so off the wall as not to be taken seriouly.
Now do you think for one minute that I didn't know you are a Dem.
Lorraine I am independent and only vote for someone who is on my side of the issue.
Please do not take things to heart.
Signed ~~ Far Right kind of Guy

[guy]

PS Don't you remember how much I supported KSF

[Truth Machine]

Hal Freedman: This site is not about stirring up political emotions and statements regarding George Bush and Dick Cheney, our President and Vice President. Using the Washington Press Club as your excuse for making your hatefilled point is like using the ACLU to justify communism. Keep your mouth shut unless you want to mix it up. Talk baseball if you must or do not talk at all.

I feel a lot fo love on this blog right now!

[Sween]

Well, since the Supreme Court did not uphold the death penalty for child molesters I damn sure that I want my right to bear arms preserved. Like it or not, those problems will be taken care of one way or another! I am a Democrat and I fully support our right to bear arms. Based on my experience with government, I believe everyone ought to be able to take care of themselves.

Truth Machine, take a pill and chill dude. This blog has, according to the blog master nothing to do with baseball. He said he is hidin' in the mountains and referenced your beloved V.P. Near as I can tell that means it is an open forum for discussion and debate. So I would suggest you heed your own advice.

[Truth Machine]

Sween: Good blog, nice statement.

3:37 PM: About 25% of the posts here either speak directly to baseball or have some baseball statement included within the text. So it would appear to be a discussional free for all.

[guy]

Stop the arguements, They blocked my last post cause I wrote the word rearend with an AR see. How petty is that??.
Apparently
They didn't like the content.
Big Bro is alive and well.

[Yorktown, Gettysburg, Omaha Beach, 9-11]

If everyone held a concealed carry permit and actually carried crime would be dropped to almost zero in a few short years. Many criminals, cowards at heart, would be afraid to attack folks they thought might be armed. For the others, they would mostly be shot down dead at the scene of their attempted crimes or die later in the hospital from forty eight bullet wounds.

What amazed me was the 5-4 vote by the Supreme Court. I mean four justices thought that the Second Amendment did not mean what it said. This has caused me two days and nights of worry and some loss of sleep. We were just one vote away from what I fear would be anarchy. Folks will not stand by and let this right be taken away. I have often said, civil war in this country is a distinct possibility. Maybe not today but it is looming somewhere out their in our future. There are just too many un-Americans trying to change this country into what it is not and has never been.

[Winston]

I think the failure of the gun laws in DC, Chicago, San Fran, etc. shows the fallacy of trying to prohibit guns. If a person is willing to shoot someone, they are not going to blink twice at owning an illegal gun.

Many of our citizens are living in "Ft Apache", and the last line of defense is a hand-gun.

I think gun safety should be taught in schools, beginning in middle school.

Guns are meant for one purpose: to kill. My first lesson with my first BB gun was only point it a something I wanted to kill.

I am past my blood-thirsty childhood hunting days, but I still have a gun with which I can still be deadly. It is kept safely, but available if I ever need it. No, it is not an AK-47, Glock, or other, merely a .22 semi-automatic rifle.

I will use it, if my life is threatened, but it quietly stays in a safe place until I need it.

I think most gun-owners (legal) are in my category. The laws and restrictions merely tie our hands, while the lawless ignore them.

[Jon McPhee]

I've got my gun, but I also read the paper, and all those letters to the editor about how only criminals use guns inappropriately. The rest of us steely-eyed urban-combat-ready patriots are, I guess, just law-abiding citizens.

Well, when some guy lets his well-armed anger get the best of him and kills four co-workers and himself, when the head of a household kills his wife and kids, when some beer-muscled idiot gets beat up in a bar fight and comes back to shoot up the place with the .40 he keeps under the car seat, guess what? "Law-abiding citizens" are suddenly at least "suspects" and maybe even "criminals."

Before you people who love the slick actions and sense of power that comes with a handful of hot iron tee off on me, be advised that I long ago gave up any thought that the people of this nation would be rational about guns.

We are who we are, or who our armed and dangerous neighbors force us to be. There's something near to one projectile weapon in circulation for every man, woman and child in America, and I would be foolish not to arm myself to be ready when the next "law-abiding citizen" gets teed off on I-275 or 4th Avenue and threatens me and mine with his legally-concealed-carry manhood enhancer.

Jon,
My gun remains in my house, as will anyone who breaks in intending me harm (until they cart him away)

[guy]

Guns Oh My

[Jon McPhee]

Guy, if you go back to this thread and read this post, I'm still one up on you in the civility department. If you thought that the snotball way back on June 24 at 2:07 was flicked off my finger, sorry Charlie, that was definitely not me. Have fun with my name -- at least I'm foolish enough to actually post using it.

And given any truth to the stuff people write about in gun and knife magazines, it would seem to be imprudent to leave your gun at home -- especially if your kids can get at it. There's whole cadres of our fellow ordinary citizens taking street-combat and urban assault classes, and shooting up those silhouette targets and old car bodies with everything from .22 derringers to M2 .50 cals, pretending they are "killing Arabs or street thugs" and getting ready for the Apocalypse that their very preparations brings ever closer.

They are out there among us, at work, at Walmart, in our churches and schools. We need to be afraid, very afraid, and well armed.

[guy]

Jon ~ I have a 1916 mm Lugar in mint condition, I figure probably the best condition I have ever seen for any Lugar.
I figure about 4 grand what say you.

[guy]

9 MM - Wooden knurled bottom on the Mag.

[Jon McPhee]

Guy --

Nah -- the Luger is too unreliable and too hard to get past metal detectors and the casual frisk, and that action is nothing but trouble. After all, it was meant to give the Prussian and Nazi officers something big and hot to hang from their leather harnesses.

The newer weapons are more reliable, hold a lot more rounds, and are a lot cheaper, especially on the street or at a gun show. That's the great thing about private sales -- no registration or background check, no record, no ballistics recording and no trace.

I'm more partial to the more modern semis and wheel guns. Now that the SCOTUS has told us Where We Stand on the Second Amendment, we can all start seriously preparing our own street-survival strategies. I'm glad there's such a growth in the number of urban-combat schools, to get us ready for our new "civil society."

One of the cute 7- or 9-round .38 semis is a good bet for the trip to Walmart or K-Mart -- you never know when a mugger might be lurking in the aisles.

And a personal-defense weapon is a great graduation or birthday present for your eighth-grader or HS senior. Gets them ready in the event that some fellow student goes whacko and starts shooting up the classroom, and it really helps them negotiate a better grade from some persnickety fuddy-duddy of a teacher or prof. And of course Good Parents teach their kids gun handling from an early age -- gives them at least an equal chance against a home invasion, or in the shoot-out when Dad loses his job, gets depressed and decides to terminate the family.

What a great country we live in! You got to pity those folks in Canada and Sweden and Japan and Britain, who just can't take a chance on going outside because they don't get to carry sidearms. How do they manage to maintain a civil society without personal protection?

I like a Glock 21 and a 6 inch stainless Tanto, myself. For a long gun, I'm partial to the light and reliable Mini-14, with lots of 20- and 30-round Lexan mags. Ever since Vietnam, I've had an affection for the .223 round. I do wish I had the stainless version of the Ruger though.

Got any preferences yourself? But I'll pass on the antique Lugar -- I'm set and ready already.