Louie, Lou-AYE, oh, baby! Here's the transcript of the August 5 chat

Hello and welcome to the transcript of the weekly live chat here on TroxBlog. In a little over an hour we talked about food safety, nude beaches, Democratic delegates, Amendment 5, my proposal for a seventh-inning song for the Rays, and the assertion by a loyal critic that I have been too negative in my columns.

Check out the transcript and see for yourself by clicking on the "Comments" link a few lines below. You'll see a page with everything that's been said so far, and a space at the bottom where you can still add your own comments after the fact.

As always, thanks to everyone who stopped by or took part in today's chat!

Comments

[Howard Troxler]

Welcome to the chat! My use of "Attack of the Killer Tomatoes" was a jest, but it prompted a comment about the recent tomato scare:

It was fairly clear very early on in the process that the culprit was either not tomatoes or was not U.S. grown tomatoes - just from the patterns of illness. The USDA and the CDC didn't ask about anything but tomatoes at first, then had to reinterview about onions and then go back again for a third time to ask about peppers - causing a delay in finding the actual problem and allowing millions of tomatoes to rot.

I realize that budgets have been cut and that we don't have investigators in the field like we used to at either agency but I'd think the safety of our food chain was at least as important as keeping the air traveling public safe. After all, it appears that we are vulnerable to "food terrorism" too. We all do HAVE TO eat while relatively few of us HAVE TO fly...

- Cathy Wilson

[Sokol]

Just don't break out into a chorus of "Puberty Love".

[Howard Troxler]

Along the same tomato lines:

All those growers have a right to be P-O'd. With modern tracking, there's no way this should have been so out of control. They should have been able to tell within a day what country the tainted product came from - within two days, the field in which it was grown and every step it passed through in the distribution channel. Just irresponsible. I'm ready for regulation.

Posted by: Buzzard | August 05, 2008 at 11:02 AM

[Howard Troxler]

Same subject, different take:

I'm all for less government. Last I checked, it was Publix that supplies me with healthy food and clean water. I'm not standing in bread lines like the people in communist countries that rely on their government to provide those things for them.

Posted by: Rich

[Howard Troxler]

Another pre-filed comment:

Another story worth getting through is the 80k people (neighbors) in this area who want to work but can't find jobs. While I'm not in favor of sweetheart deals with corporations to "create" those jobs--since it seems those nice corps never really follow through--I am wholeheartedly in favor of raising taxes to support schools that work. To attract 'real' jobs we need to have a better-educated workforce.

So what can be done right now? My immodest proposal is to put every penny we've got into attracting more Euro tourists to Pinellas; they're paying about 64 cents to our buck, and would really like to come to our beaches and spend. This could be a better winter for a lot of our neighbors if this comes to (John's) pass. And even Downtown. . . .
Discuss, and feel free to flame.
-- John D.

Hello...is this thing on?

[Howard Troxler]

A pre-filed question about my column today on the Democratic delegates:

A few things you failed to address.

1... Did the Repubilican controlled Flordia Legislature effect who the Democratic nominee would end up being?

2... How fair is a primary system that has a few small states (Iowa, New Hampsire) who are unrepresenative of the country as a whole have as much influence on picking the nominee?

3... Why is'nt a system of rotating the states in a regional primary not a more fair and Democratic process?

Posted by: Mr. Tibbs

[Howard Troxler]

Dear Mr. Tibbs:

(1) The Democrats voted for the early primary enthusiastically, and their last-minute protest was a sham. They said so on the floor of the Senate.

(2) It's not, seems to me. The only virtue is the "retail" scale, largely driven by personal contact rather than big media campaigns, but I wonder if we couldn't get those benefits elsewhere by rotating to OTHER small states as well.

(3) It is, seems to me.

[Howard Troxler]

A pre-filed comment from Lorraine, who is off to the Pinellas County Commission today:

Rumor is that a woman would be easier to defeat than an African American male in the upcoming Presidential Election........ so theoretically speaking. the Repubs will wholeheartedly go for the "bring back Hillary" campaign. It's what the Repubs want in the face-off purportedly............so, what do y'all think? I am a woman, so tell me................can we count as a possible holder of such a high office, and if so, how..... and if not, why not?

Good column, BTW........

Lorraine

[Howard Troxler]

Speaking of Lorraine, here's a note from Don in St. Pete:

Bay News 9 had a nice story about the Charter Amendment to protect Environmental Lands. BOCC will be discussing the amendments to the charter question today. Lorraine and Will Davis are featured.

http://www.baynews9.com/VideoPlayer/?Environmental_vote_85

Posted by: Don in St. Pete

[Howard Troxler]

12:06, howdy.

[Sokol]

Mr. Tibbs,

I would love to blame our "Republican Controlled Florida Legislature", but our Democratic representatives didn't exactly fight this.

[guy]

The US government as we know it has gone way beyond the power of authority that the framers of the Constitution intended.
This was done many years ago and cannot be corrected.
If you have had any dealings with the IRS or any federal authorities no doubt you know these words to be true.
Little men, with the power of God and little or no compassion to what damage they may inflict upon peoples lives.
This is not a political party problem, it is a humanitarian issue.
Bureaucracy has pervaded our government from top to bottom.
But smart folks like us that know everything about anything will just argue amongst themselves like we have done since the day’s of J. Edgar Hoover, when the FBI ran around with machine guns shooting people over a drink of whiskey.
We keep people like Oba Chandler on death row for twenty years after he killed a woman and her two daughters in a most gruesome manner, and when they finally execute him people will be marching outside with signs.
I read were Lorraine is now doing another take on Obama. God bless her .
The only guy I have mostly agreed with in years is Jesse Ventura who is now talking a run at the Presidency in four years.This guy would make some serious moves.
I think we need change,,, but not the two cents worth that is being offered by the two stupido’s now being presented to us.

[Native]

thoughts on amendment 5 that Charlie has come out in support of?

[surfdog]

I say we fight like heck to keep the A.C.
stadium

[Howard Troxler]

Hi, guy!

Howdy, Native. Amendment 5 is a pig halfway in the poke. We KNOW that we get rid of school property taxes. We DON'T know what the Legislature will do to make up for them, which scares business. It also scares education-types who worry the Legislature will not actually make up the losses fully, as it's supposed to do.

[Howard Troxler]

Here's the negativity question from Rick K.

Howard, in a live chat a few weeks back, I thought you explained that your mission is to write about things in the community, both good and bad. I am SERIOUSLY curious about why the overhwhelming majority of your writing is about what you see as "the bad." I have read a few month's worth of columns (but not every one, perhaps), and I am not sure I have found one that had a positive focus. Why so much emphasis on the negative? Is it because you don't see the positive, or you think that is being covered somewhere else?

Posted by: Rick K

[Howard Troxler]

Dear Rick K.: Well, I think you have set up quite a straw man there, and even if I went systematically through all of my columns with you, you would be convinced that I only write about "the negative." In the first place, I often write columns disagreeing with local government decisions, and you defend those decisions vigorously without exception... who is begin more "negative," then? A quick check of the archive shows I often write columns trying to explain or explore current issues without being "negative," as you put it.

Anyway, we can take a spin through what's on the web site:

June 14 - Discussion of Nelson's Electoral College proposal
June 16 - Praise and agreement with a Fla Sup Ct ruling
June 18 - Opposition to oil drilling off Florida's coast
June 21 - What the stadium contracts should say
June 30 - Advice for getting a stadium approved next time
July 2 - Tribute to Ralph Hughes' influence in Hillsborough Co
July 3 - Disagreement with Fla's decision to enter Powerball
July 7 - Strong criticism of St. Pete secret Jabil deal
July 9 - Discussion of state deal with Warren Buffett
July 12 - Again on City Council and Jabil deal
July 14 - Offbeat claim that entire Fla gov't is invalid
July 16 - Discussion of coyotes in Pinellas County
July 19 - Intelligent (I hope) discussion of State Farm request
July 21 - Criticism of state's posture on hurricane insurance
July 23 - Satirical "drink beer, get paid" column on business handouts
July 26 - On the Fannie Mae bailout
July 28 - Critical of county rezoning, Bayside Reserves
July 30 - Explanation of Sup Ct ruling on gun law
Aug 2 - whimsical week in review (including good news!)
Aug 4 - Questioning the decision on Democratic delegates

I am sure you will look at this list and say I am a negative fellow; to me it represents a fairly broad range of curiosity about public issues, some in disagreement, some in exploration and explanation...

Cheers,
Howard

[surfdog]

guy
do u mind me asking who you voted for in 2000?

2004?

[Howard Troxler]

By the way, I think this discharges the pre-filed comments I had saved up... I didn't move over all the food-safety discussion that exists on the pre-chat post.

[Howard Troxler]

Probably not Nader? :)

[surfdog]

create a topless beach .....

this will attract tourats from europe

any suggestions where it should be?

[Mr. Tibbs]

Native

I'am all for it.

[Howard Troxler]

surfdog, setting up a conflict between two great American values, false prudishness and profit... which one wins? I am betting prudishness.

[Howard Troxler]

Anyway, with the great topless beaches in Europe, you think they would come to Fla specifically for that? Nah, they want Disney...

[Mark]

Admendment 5 is just a way to put some money in our pocket so we won't be as upset when they take way more back by raing the sales tax among other tax increases.
The governmentshould just tax our paychecks or most everything we buy, not both. I remember some people throwing some tea into Boston harbor about this awhile back

[Rick K]

Seeing the post about Lorraine being on TV causes me to think about issues related to the way the Times blog does not require registration with unique user names, which seems to me, to both encourage all sorts of inappropriate behavior and and also to permit people here to pose as others (which would be nearly impossible if the site assigned unique user names).

Howard, now that you have nine months or so under your belt with this blog format, do you have any thoughts about system changes that would make the blogs better?

[Mr. Tibbs]

Howard
That was'nt really Rick K posting but an imposter!

[Native]

I am for the increase in the sales tax since it will in theory put more burden on tourists, non-property owners and illegals. I am just skeptical on how our property taxes will still increase for other purposes.

[Jim S]

In my opinion Howard Dean is the idiot that created this mess(see the Republican parties response). His plan all along was for Hillary to reinstate the delegates after Super Tuesday and all would be well in the universe. Whoops!! The northeastern Democratic minority must release control of the party to the moderate majority or Democrats will continue to be out of touch and loose the White House.

[guy]

There is quite a lot of static being made about using Obama’s middle name “Hussein”
Perhaps he could change it to one that would suit him more.
Here is a list he might choose from~~~
Arrogant,
Egotistical,
Narcissistic,
Conceited,
Condescending,
Patronizing,
Superfluous,
Haughty,
Overconfident,

Surfdog It really didn't matter much, did it.

[Henry]

Re: the delegates. I think this whole mess has only proven that we the people have given over any power we have/had to a corrupt system of treasonous (sp?), opportunistic, greedy, self serving millionares. And we all know it's happening, and we care enough to complain but that's about it. (Myself included, BTW).

[surfdog]

its a shame prudishness wins too bad

and look at Miami many going there cause of topless south beach

[Rick K]

It was and is the REAL Rick K.

[Free Market? For Whom?]

Greetings!!!
Lets agree to provide all the comments that are not relative to problems we have to deal with so we feel good about ourselves.
So we can argue concepts not pertinent to issues that affect people's lives.
Hey how bout that reality TV?

[Howard Troxler]

Rick K: I do not feel strongly about it. There have been a couple of cases of impersonation here but not chronic.

[Mr. Tibbs]

Rick K

Lets do a background check on this people too

[Jon McPhee]

guy, any inspirations on what kind of paradigm shift or sea change will do away with the bureaucratic urge and the notorious human tendency to try to force behaviors on other people? Ever had to deal with a Condo Commando or the neighborhood restrictive covenant policer? Short of nuclear war or some kind of "Terminator" event, I don't see any change in the human heart as being very likely -- except at the "retail" level, where good people can maybe teach those with the lust for power over others and with the genes for "selfishness" being fully expressed, that they don't get their way all the time. I would bet that you would not want to do away with the jobs that FDA and EPA and FBI and DHS and all the other agencies are SUPPOSED to be doing, in favor of having Congress act on all these things directly as opposed to the questionable "delegation" of legislative power to executive agencies that we have now.

Any illuminating notions on how we bring common sense, common courtesy, the Golden Rule and all those other Sunday School notions into the arena as the standards of human behavior? Maybe Ventura has a prayer, can Schwarzenegger be his domestic advisor?

[guy]

Right now the home owners or property owners, pay all the taxes for all the freeloaders.

[surfdog]

just wondering why you whine sooo much

but I guess you did vote for bush

[Howard Troxler]

On the property-tax issue, Amendment 5 would totally eliminate the required local effort (i.e., the state-imposed portion) of school property taxes. Hold on, let me check to see whether local schools could then turn around and jack up their millage...

[Rich]

Rick,

Howard's a skeptic. If you can't question authority then you can't think for yourself.

I'd rather have a newspaper man question those in charge than to have positive press releases daily.

MR. Tibbs, I think that would be inappropriate. My question about user names really comes into play more on those Times Blogs where people post very personal attacks against rather ordinary (non-celebrity / non-elected) people.

For example, on the High School sports blogs, people tear into 16 year old kids Anonymously. Similarly, a story will come up about an ordinary citizen and people will post all sorts of vicious things. I am just wondering how often the Times leadership re-examines their policies with respect to this new medium.

[guy]

Surfer D ~~ I would rather go to south beach anyday than vote

[Howard Troxler]

Well, I ain't in charge of nothing except my print column and some nominal control over this one blog. I think I have made it clear I am not going to put up with that kind of stuff.

Let's talk about issues and not blog mechanics...

[Mr. Tibbs]

Keep dreaming Jon

[surfdog]

hey (:

something WE AGREE ON!

[Jon McPhee]

Topless beaches in FL? Have any of you ever seen a Canadian or a Lutheran from Minnesota (male or female) go topless? Think that will bring 'em running from Cannes or the Cote'd'Azur?

[Mr. Tibbs]

Not me Guy, bought my house a long time ago.

[Native]

The blogs should be moderated with a unique user ID, I believe this would decrease the negative personal attacks irrelevant to the subject.

[Mark]

Howard, moving on to sports. I wanted to say I enjoyed the article on what makes people mad in sports. I to deplore the spitting in baseball and stepping out of the batters box after every pitch. But what gripes me the most are rookie holdouts. i do not care if you are a first round pick or the last one picked. You'll get the same base pay the first year. Then you load the contract with performance incentives for the higher up picks incase they do live up to their hype. But you cannot hold out your first year!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Oh yeah tell Brett Favre to take the money and run.
Tell gruden we need more quarterbacks in camp, I mean we are down to 5.

[Howard Troxler]

On the property tax thing, I remembered correctly. Amendment 5 wipes out all state-required school property taxes AND it cuts the maximum local school tax from 10 mills to 5 mills.

In other words, local school boards couldn't turn right around and jack up their local taxes, at least, not past the 5-mill cap.

[Mr. Tibbs]

Rick K
The newspaper should remove personal attacks.

[Native]

As for the BOCC, I am still bitter about making shell island basically off limits to the recreational boating crowd. IMO this was all about $$ and the million dollar development right across the cut, not in the interest of nature.

[Howard Troxler]

Howdy, Mark. I have a sort of free-market attitude about rookie holdouts. Most of 'em end up hurting themselves more than they help themselves, and they never seem to learn... sometimes I think, %#% 'em.

Say, can anybody here bat against left-handed pitching?

[Larry]

Howard, if Amendment 5 is going to provide us with approx 25% property tax cut, which given the size of increases over the past five years is still pretty piddley, what good is it if we are merely shifting it to a another form of taxation. Aren't we effectively still paying the same amount of taxes? You can't close the schools. I've never understood the logic behind this proposal.

[guy]

It must be mentally challenging to know you voted for John Kerry.

Holy Smoke

[Native]

Hold out if you can, as long as someone is willing to pay it. Why are athletes always criticized for being greedy but actors get a free pass commanding millions for 1 movie?

[Rick K]

Rich,

I don't see Howard as merely a skeptic.

And no one here would suggest that he merely print positive press releases. I think his Aug 2 column is a great example of the criticism I have of Howard's approach, which he is clearly entitled to approach in any manner that pleases him and the Times. I think it's one thing to be a skeptic, another to nearly always see the empty parts of the glass as being more newsworthy than the full parts.

Howard doesn't agree with me, so that's fine. I was just wondering how he sees himself and his work. Now I know.

[Jon McPhee]

Howard, at the risk of being labeled a "sycophant," I would like to thank you for doing what you do -- shining a light on the rats scurrying in the dark corners, eating our lunches and then leaving their excretions where we eat and live. Maybe if more people were less tolerant of the warty behavior, we might have more of that village mentality that seems to have worked when humans lived in smaller groups with less chance for the few to steal so big.

And Tibbs, I was not and will not be dreaming -- I was just asking if those who hate "the system" the way it is have any thoughts, short of serial murder, to make things any better.

[Howard Troxler]

Larry, good question.

One advantage is by shifting to sales taxes, from property taxes, a bigger % is paid by non-residents.

Amendment 5 in theory also forces the Legislature to close some existing loopholes in the state's sales tax to make up the difference.

Property taxes are, I believe, the least popular of all taxes...

[Mr. Tibbs]

Rick K

Maybe your just not use to the ways of the new media world, myspace generation has grown up in this culture of the personal attack.

[Henry]

Judging by the caliber of the graduates I see working in my local grocery store, etc., I want a refund of all the money I've wasted educating other people's children!

[Rich]

Larry,

Tourists pay an estimated 30% of sales taxes in this state. Less burden on homeowners, more on tourists.

[Sokol]

Guy,

I'm pretty sure that a property owner is going to be charging Rent to his tenants, with the premise that he will be making a profit from his investment of capital in the property (and that's a good thing).

His property taxes will just be one more expense that he will have to calculate in charging the necessary rent for that property.

Renter's are paying their share of property taxes, as well as owners.

Also don't forget sales taxes are pretty much paid by everyone, rich or poor.

[surfdog]

Perhaps BUSH could change his name to one that would suit him more.
Here is a list he might choose from~~~
Arrogant,
Egotistical,
Narcissistic,
Conceited,
Condescending,
Patronizing,
Superfluous,
Haughty,
Overconfident,

Surfdog It really didn't matter much, did it.

Posted by: guy | August 05, 2008 at 12:18 PM

[Mary]

Hey, maybe if we did have a topless beach, maybe Chuckles the clown would come here more often from Tallahassee (or is it still Europe?) then we could all beat him senseless. Nope, that won't work - he's still gay and is already senseless...

[Mark]

Well Native, actors had to have a few "hit" movies to command their salaries. Being a good college player does not automatically make you a good pro. Beside I do not go to the movies, but I do go to sporting events. By the way did you know that Raymond James stadium now does home equity loans for peole wanting season tickets?

[guy]

Hey Mark

The packers should let King Farve play, and have the offensive line let the defense get him good. He would limp away as usual and go get Xray's

[Howard Troxler]

Sokol, hello again. You touch on a whole host of good issues concerning the tradeoff between sales taxes and other kinds. Florida has gone out of its way to construct a regressive sales tax, with the exception of good exemptions for food, housing and medicine.

[Mr. Tibbs]

Rick K

I think what your most afraid of is that Howard askes questions that you and others would rather not have to answer.

[Native]

Sokol

the glut of inventory on the market will also dictate the rent, and there are not many breaks on property taxes for investment propety

[Rick K]

Mary's post at 12:35 pm reminds me of that great Damon Wayans bit from In Living Color, Homey the Clown.

He just wanted to "bop the man!"

[Jon McPhee]

Howard, at the risk of being labeled one of your "sycophants," I would like to thank you for what you do -- shining a light on the rats who scurry around in the dark, eating our vittles and leaving their excreta for us to try to clean up. We might live in a better world if more people with louder voices and a taller podium to speak from would call the rats on what they do, point out the emperor standing around naked, and reinforce healthier ways of thinking.

Mr. Tibbs, I am not and will not be a "dreamer." My question was whether anyone who gripes about and hates "the system" the way it is has any bright ideas on how to arrive at a better way of relating to one another, while getting necessary things done. I am not one to carry a torch for "the way things are."

[Ron H]

I strongly favor the sales tax for one reason. You don't have to pay it unless you choose to do so. If people want to engage in conspicuous consumption they may do so (and pay taxes for the privilege of doing so). If they want to save taxes, they may spend less.

No one is appraising the amount of money they have and making them pay taxes on it, as they do for the value of their house.

[surfdog]

GABE GROSS can

[guy]

So DOG admit it, you voted for Kerry LOL
Why the LONG FACE KERRY LOL

[ENough]

Guy,

I could list of dozens of superlatives for the middle name of the republican candidate, but won't. Get over yourself.

[ENough]

Lorriane rocks!

[Henry]

Ron H.'s comments regarding the sales tax are 100% correct, but unfortunately it's the element of personal choice that will guarantee the politicians will make sure it never sees the light of day.

[Mr. Tibbs]

Howard
Did you sit in the press box last night?

[guy]

Sokol
I really feel like a heel when I raise the rent of someone who is a good renter and respects your property.

[Howard Troxler]

surfdog: Well, Gross was producin' last night, when Longo, Pena & Navarro all went O-fer!

Jon, tx for the kind word, but just remember all those times I have said dumb stuff too.

Ron H., howdy. The argument for consumption taxes is strong, but not all-powerful -- I have always thought there was a rational basis for reasonable taxation of income, property AND consumption... everybody tends to favor the ones they think will benefit them the most.

I would favor an all-consumption tax even more if... IF ALL CONSUMPTION WAS TAXED. But it isn't. In general, things that everybody buys are subject to Florida's tax; thigns that you tend to buy when you get more money are not taxed. Bug spray: Taxed. Bug service: Not taxed. And so forth.

[Native]

Guy- I totally agree.

No one touching the shell island deal?

[ENough]

When we don't have an adequate revenue stream to support education then we will get exactly what we ask for ... nothing. And I thought I was incredulous when they told us that the lottery would support education.

[Howard Troxler]

Mr. T., nope, I am not credentialed for the press box... in fact, I don't think I've ever been in it.

By the way, I was thinking for a change of pace to write a column advocating the Rays get their own seventh-inning song, akin to "Sweet Caroline" in Boston.

My own favorite would be "Louie, Louie," although a buddy here suggests "Hang on Sloopy." Hanging on would be especially appropriate for Percival.

[surfdog]

yes I did vote for Kerry

(not my doing) he suked as a candidate

nothing like a war hero being put down for serving the country when prez was awol himself..

USA the counrty of f($%in great politics!

[Mark]

Hey Gruden hope you read the papers. Cuz Testaverde is available(don't worry about that retirement rumor), so is John Reeves. Or you can just keep what we have and wait for Tim Teabow. That is if you are still around by then. I still do not understand what is so hard to comprehend about your offense. I call it the rumba offense.....1...2...3...kick!

[Rich]

Howard,

Property taxes are the most regressive of all. Poor people pay a much higher share of income towards housing . The cost of housing includes property taxes even if you rent.

Discretionary spending should be taxed at the same rate. Why should a poor person pay less in tax on a Bucs jersey than a wealthy person?

Talk about regressive, try not paying property taxes if you lose your job. At least with sales taxes you can opt out.

[Howard Troxler]

Re: Shell Key: I know lots of folks on both sides of that equation. Got some good neighbors who strongly opposed the ban and were sad to see it.

On the other hand, I have friends who strongly opposed it and told lots of horror stories about abuse of the place. I probably lean their way on the nature angle. I wasn't aware there was a rich-guy angle, too, so maybe I can get demagogued back over to the other side... :)

[guy]

ENough says ~
Guy,

I could list of dozens of superlatives for the middle name of the republican candidate, but won't. Get over yourself.

I never though I mentioned how much I enjoy being me, You should try it ENo

[Native]

Howard...hang on sloopy is already taken by the media darlings of college football ohio st u

[Mr. Tibbs]

Howard
The Rays should have a contest to find the right song, I kind of like a Jimmy Buffet song.

[Rick K]

Howard, in re: "Rays songs"

Both Louie Louie and Hang On Sloopy are already in use by major collegiate sports programs. If the Rays adopt either, they will be subject to criticisms that they copied.

Hand on Sloopy, by the way, is not only the official "Bleachers Dance Song" of the Ohio State University, it is also the official Rock-N-Roll song of the State of Ohio.

[Howard Troxler]

Change that second graf to "friends who strongly supported it."

[Mary]

Thanks, Rick K - I'd forgotten about that - that WAS good TV. On the subj. of the stadium: Let the owners and players that make millions from the game pay for it...just a thought

[Howard Troxler]

I thought, in fact, it was "Louie Louie." Maybe that's the official rock & roll song of someplace else... I'll check...

Re: OSU, other schools -- I don't care about the copycat problem; it's all open season.

[Rick K]

Howard, in re: "Rays songs"

Both Louie Louie and Hang On Sloopy are already in use by major collegiate sports programs. If the Rays adopt either, they will be subject to criticisms that they copied.

Hand on Sloopy, by the way, is not only the official "Bleachers Dance Song" of the Ohio State University, it is also the official Rock-N-Roll song of the State of Ohio.

[Mark]

how about "oh what a night" for the rays 7th inning song?

[guy]

Howard, we used to enjoy stopping at sand key all the time, but I can understand why they closed it off, it was really getting a lot of traffic.
And some things you have to give up when you know it's right.

[Non Biker]

Howard: How about some indepth study and then discussion on one of my favorite subjects. The pros and cons on bicycle riders. And I use the term riders loosely. They are more like maurading speeding bullets that break every rule of the road and etiquette.

I am sure that every motorist has similar experiences of these folks pedaling the wrong way on roadways, running stop signs and red lights, no hand signals, no reflectors, poor choice of night clothing, obstructionists riding behavior, riding on sidewalks, etc. etc.

Taken in light of the City making more and more bike lanes, which they more often than not do not use, the potential for more bikers with the rising gas costs seems to me to be a very real problem. More ill equipped out of shape folks riding bikes to save money who have no business dodging cars, curbs and trees. Add riding at night and in the rain and you can see what I mean.

What do you think?

Maybe we could stop the using the penny for pinellas thats used for building "stuff" that may not be necessary now and start using the money for schools and some essentials.

[Rick K]

Howard you might be right.

I sometimes get my official state Rock N Roll songs confused.

(Sorry about the multiple posts, also)

[Mr. Tibbs]

Mary you must hate sports, maybe a husband that watches football instead of the chores on your to do list?

[Native]

the rich guy angle at shell key is the condo development on the ne section, the finger behind Billy's. Right across from the area that most people congregated during the weekends.

no buffet songs for the rays, he is a manatee lover not a Rays fan

[Howard Troxler]

From Wiki:

In 1985, Ross Shafer, host and a writer-performer of the late-night comedy series Almost Live! on the Seattle TV station KING, spearheaded an effort to have "Louie Louie" replace "Washington, My Home" by Helen Davis as Washington's official state song. [9] Picking up on this initially prankish effort, Whatcom County Councilman Craig Cole introduced Resolution No. 85-12 in the state legislature, citing the need for a "contemporary theme song that can be used to engender a sense of pride and community, and in the enhancement of tourism and economic development". His resolution also called for the creation of a new "Louie Louie County". While the House did not pass it, the Senate's Resolution 1985-37 declared April 12, 1985, "Louie Louie Day". A crowd of 4,000, estimated by press reports, convened on the state capitol that day for speeches, singalongs, and performances by the Wailers, the Kingsmen, and Paul Revere and the Raiders. Two days later, a Seattle event commemorated the occasion with the premiere performance of a new, Washington-centric version of the song written by composer Berry.[10] [11]

[surfdog]

Here they are, the five biggest Chickenhawks in the United States.

Hey America!

George W. Bush: Rather than see his son sent off to fight in Vietnam, Bush's influential father rigged it so that his least promising son could do his wartime military service stateside, with the Texas Air National Guard. Bush received this assignment even though he scored just a 25 on his flight entrance exam, which was the lowest possible score that an applicant could get.

A year later, Bush was transferred to the Alabama National Guard, but according to the best records available, he never showed up on the base and was officially AWOL for more than a year from his assignment.

Dick Cheney: He received five separate deferments between 1962 and 1969. Cheney's story is all about "dodging" the draft, and will likely be dealt with in another piece, but one should keep in mind that when asked during a 1989 interview why he worked so hard to avoid going to Vietnam, our Vice President said: "I had other priorities in the '60s than military service."

Rush Limbaugh:Today he is the biggest hawk in the mainstream media, daily defending the Bush Administration's pro-war policies concerning Iraq and Iran. Listen to this guy's radio program if you never have. You'd think Limbaugh had the war experience of an Eisenhower or a Schwartzkopf. Nope. Rush Limbaugh was classified 4-F because he had Pilonidal disease. What's Pilonidal disease, you ask? It's a cyst on the , that's what is is.

Dan Quayle:Don't laugh. Quayle is still a powerful neoconservative, albeit from behind the scenes these days. It's a good place for him: tucked away far from the ugly fray but knowing in his heart that he is still fighting the good fight. Just like he did during the Vietnam War. Quayle's wealthy family used its influence to have young Dan positioned into the Indiana National Guard in 1969, and thus avoid the prospect of combat in 'Nam.

Quayle should thank his god that he wasn't in the same situation under his buddy George Bush, who has sent hundreds of thousands of National Guardsmen to fight in Iraq.

Karl Rove. This master neoconservative political strategist and former White House fixture was another one of the geniuses who brought us the Iraq war. Rove, however, never actually fought in a war. Instead, he used numerous bogus student deferments to avoid the Vietnam draft.

His evasive conduct began In December 1969, when the Selective Service System assigned Rove a number 84, which placed him in the middle of those young men who would eventually be drafted. But on February 17, 1970, Rove was reclassified as 2-S, a deferment from the draft because he enrolled at the University of Utah. Rove maintained this deferment until December 14, 1971, despite being only a part-time student and dropping out of the University in June 1971.

Rove then enrolled at the University of Maryland in the fall of 1971, but registrar's records show that he withdrew from classes during the first half of that first semester. There is no evidence that he ever informed the Selective Service that he was no longer in school.

There are many, many other such Chickenhawks who are currently part of the American Imperial War Machine: Paul Wolfowitz, Richard Perle, Newt Gingrich (retired but still influential), George Will (a conservative columnist who avoided 'Nam but often serves as a cheerleader for the Bush Gang), Fox News Ideology prostitute Brit Hume . . . it goes on an on and on.

I'm not saying that a lifelong civilian isn't fit to be Commander-in-Chief. Indeed, I think those circumstances

[Mark]

No wait how about "Beat it" by Micheal Jackson?
No wait, "In the mood".
No wait I got it how about "I will always Love you"?

[Howard Troxler]

I like the idea of "Oh What A Night."

On bicycle riders: There's always an interesting discussion of this topic on our biking blog...

Interesting, in the comments I read there, even bikers disagree over this, with some advoating strict compliance with traffic regs and others saying, "Folks just have to deal with us."

[Howard Troxler]

If it were "I Will Always Love YOu," I think I might turn in my tickets...

[Mr. Tibbs]

I don't hate sports - just can't afford tix after paying my taxes - and don't want those taxes increased to pay for it - , insurance, trying to eat, etc., etc., etc. and, by the way, I'm happily divorced with a long-term boyfriend...

[Howard Troxler]

Aye, aye aye, aye aye

will always love

you OOOOOOOOO OOOOO OOOOO OOOO ooo

will always love you OOOO OOOO OOO

will always love YOUOOOOOOOOOO....

(where is the exit?)

[Rick K]

Also from WIKI:

In April 1985, a columnist for the Columbus Citizen-Journal, Joe Dirck, saw a wire service story about a proposal to designate "Louie, Louie" the state rock song of Washington and wrote a column about it. This goaded the 116th Ohio General Assembly into action and it designated "Hang on Sloopy" the state rock song by House Concurrent Resolution 16 on November 20, 1985. The resolution referenced the lyrical content of the song, noted its importance to the state and jokingly hinted that there is no reason not to vote yea, with clauses including

[Mary]

Oops, sorry - the last post was by me TO Mr. Tibbs...

[Howard Troxler]

Dang! The Wiki says the Seattle Mariners already use "Louie Louie" in the 7th inning...

[surfdog]

CDB the south's gonna do it again!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WeZFPcoQr0k

[Mark]

Howard I ride a bicycle, and riders have to deal with the cars, so find less traveled roads, or go one of the many trails in the state and you can be a lot safer and enjoy the wilderness.

[Rick K]

I left out the best tidbit from the WIKI article about Hang on Sloopy, which described two particular WHEREAS clauses in the Resolution.

WHEREAS, "Hang On Sloopy" is of particular relevance to members of the Baby Boom Generation, who were once dismissed as a bunch of long-haired, crazy kids, but who now are old enough and vote in sufficient numbers to be taken quite seriously"

and

"WHEREAS, Adoption of this resolution will not take too long, cost the state anything, or affect the quality of life in this state to any appreciable degree, and if we in the legislature just go ahead and pass the darn thing, we can get on with more important stuff."[2]

Heh.

[Mr. Tibbs]

How bout I'll be alright without you by Journey.

[Rick K]

Does anyone know if they play "Wild Thing" in Cleveland?

[Howard Troxler]

Hard to believe the politicians liked the part about Sloopy let your hair hang down, let it hang down on me...

[Grunt242]

PROPOSAL #1:! Let's have a NATIONAL primary system in place by 2012, in accordance with the following features:

The DATE:? The First Tuesday of the Ninth Month before the General Election (ie: The First Tuesday of February).

[Mark]

Howard I was kidding about I will always love you. So did not think of an exit. How about the Bucs use it and exit with bitter sweet memories, that is all I'm taking with me?

[Grunt242]

PROPOSAL #1:! Let's have a NATIONAL primary system in place by 2012, in accordance with the following features:

The DATE:? The First Tuesday of the Ninth Month before the General Election (ie: The First Tuesday of February).

[guy]

John Kerry got so many medals he needed a blood transfusion from the pin marks on his chest, but he threw them all on the Whitehouse Lawn.
Protesting mustard for his wife

[Grunt242]

PROPOSAL #1:! Let's have a NATIONAL primary system in place by 2012, in accordance with the following features:

The DATE:? The First Tuesday of the Ninth Month before the General Election (ie: The First Tuesday of February).

[Rick K]

Howard it would have to be a song everyone can sing. It doesn't have to draw a connection to Florida. It just needs to be singable....

Passage of Amendment 5, and the resulting 8pct sales tax in Pinellas County, will diminish the ability for a 1/4 or 1/2 cent sales tax dedicated for transit improvements to be passed.

Shell Key regulations - nothing too heavy handed there. When I can stroll along Central Ave at noon on a Tuesday with a beer in my hand (might make for better Troxblog chats!), then we can talk about those poor boaters. Seems like the "rec boat community" can't enjoy the water without a buzz...

[Mark]

Alright one more song for the Rays 7th inning. How about "What a wonderful world"?

[Howard Troxler]

"Louie Louie, me gotta go. Louie Louie, me gotta go. A fine little girl, she wait for me. Me catch the ship across the sea. I sailed the ship all alone. I never think I'll make it home. Louie Louie, me gotta go . Three nights and days we sailed the sea. Me think of girl constantly. On the ship, I dream she there. I smell the rose in her hair. Louie Louie, me gotta go. Me see Jamaican moon above. It won't be long me see me love. Me take her in my arms and then I tell her I never leave again. Louie Louie, me gotta go." (By Richard Berry. Copyright 1957-1963 by Limax Music Inc.)

[guy]

I think the Ray's should worry less about music and more about the sacrifice bunt that Pina' didn't laydown with 2 on in the seventh and no outs.

[kevin mccurdy]

Hello Mr. Troxler, Many times over the years I have left messages on your machine(mosly nice) and enjoy a good read. Greg Hamilton is a good friend of mine and he says nice things about you! I am happy to see that a conversation we had a long time ago has seemingly come back around, This weekend you did a funny take on the past week. When you started out every sunday you would recap the major events of the past week and make us laugh/cring at the goings on of the locals and the electeds. I hope you keep this up as it is imformative and funny. I've never blogged before so I'm gonna grab a bacardi and coke and float around in my pool-mon and tue being my weekend. Keep up the good work! kevin mccurdy, floral city

[Howard Troxler]

No, no, it needs to be fairly raucous and participatory. Not quite 'Cotton-Eyed Joe," but still upbeat.

Re: national primary: All for talking about it. Or rotating regional primaries, even better.

[Rick K]

There is also a portion of the "best tax system" argument which concerns which taxes are easiest to increase. In general terms, I think it is best if it is harder, rather than easier, for government to increase taxes.

[Mr. Tibbs]

What is it with you and bunts, Guy

[guy]

Howey,Howey ~~me gotta go

[surfdog]

how bout ANYTHING
from
Stevie "RAY" Vaughan

get it???

[guy]

That would have tied the game at 4 each MR TIBBS

[Mark]

I know, once again I was kidding so how about "Who let the dogs out"?

[guy]

Thats Baseball TIBBO

[Howard Troxler]

Kevin: Thank you for the good word and it is nice to hear from you. See the earlier criticism in this chat about that same column -- takes many opinions to make the world go around.

The Rays are last in the league in sac bunts, I think. But I have a certain Moneybal skepticism as to whether they are worth it in the first place. I think a man on first, no outs might be better than a man on second, one out.

But this ain't a sports blog.

Me gotta go now...

[Howard Troxler]

Ooh, Stevie RAY, you gotta like that...

[Mr. Tibbs]

Rick K

Governments just raise fee's on other services, like recreation and other user fee's.

[Jim Johnson]

I'm 7th generation Floridian and lifelong resident of Tampa Bay. I've come across newspaper articles from 1867 that describe Tampa Bay as the Garden of Eden in terms of the weather, abundance of natural food, and the scenic beauty of the region.

It was this way until well into the 60s.

Imagine parking your car beneath the pine trees on Clearwater Beach. Imagine no traffic except for the major parades, state, and county fair days. The Indian Rocks bridge was wood, you forded Brooker Creek, and much of Pinellas County was wilderness or citrus groves.

I spent my youth fishing, crabbing, and hunting in Pinellas.

If we want to encourage tourists and business to come here, we must do what brought people here in the first place: Preserve and restore the natural wonders of the region.

As it is, it's a congealed and congested cesspool.

[Winston McDuffie]

Hey Mr Tibbs,

Think we could convince them to do A Pirate Looks at Forty?,,,Course we would need forty runs...

[Mr. Tibbs]

What do you mean Winston?

[brad]

It seems to me that amendment 5 is just another try to push Milton Freedman economics down our throats. It is BRILLIANT. The perfect economic storm has been created. The prices of oil, food and living in general has ballooned incredibly under the ever unconcerned watch of our imperial president, forcing the citizens of the United States to make decisions based on their wallet. Do I feed my family, or should I try to vote the DOE out of existence to save 25% off taxes? As we are being starved, the drumbeat for a privatized society is unending.

[Howard Troxler]

Mother, mother ocean!

Y'all, it is a little after 1 p.m., and I have a couple of things up my sleeve to get to. So I am sneaking my negative self out of here.

Maybe I will float this Louie Louie (or whatever) idea in a Thursday column, forsaking all the serious problems of the state and community...

Thanks to everybody who stopped by or took part in the chat....

I would do the cheshire-cat thing here, except I ain't grinnin'.

Bye.

[guy]

Howard Please ~ man on first and second no outs
Bunt moves them to second and third
Out of the double play Situation
Both score on a single.
All year not once have they done this basic move.
And you seen it last night

[Mr. Tibbs]

Guy
Put an application in for manager!

[guy]

TIBBS let them come to me

[Rick K]

Tibbs,

Government user fees are the BEST taxes. When certain government benefits are received or enjoyed dispropotinately by some people, it is completely appropriate to charge those people for the narrower portion of government benefits.

A good example is National Parks. There is some widespread benefit to the government owning the parks. But the expenses associated with allowing people to visit the parks are most fairly borne by those who visit the parks. Other good examples are fishing licenses and drivers licenses and hunting licenses. Everyone benefits from having the government regulate these activities, but the individual licensees receive more benefits than the public at large, so it makes sense to fund 100% of the cost of issuing and administering licenses with user fees.

A user fee is the fairest and best tax!

[Mr. Tibbs]

Rick K
I agree, my kids will soon be done with public school and why should I keep paying for that expense.

[Mr. Tibbs]

Guy
Bunters are people that think small, go for the fences!

[Mr. Tibbs]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3clubKoRRmw

[Don Mott]

Another very good example for user fees is pro sports stadiums!

[Mr. Tibbs]

While we have a break in the action this afternoon, let’s head off to La Crosse, Wisc., where a newspaper deliveryman is alleged to have created thousands of fake New York Times subscribers, recycled the papers, and made about $227,000 on the wily subterfuge. Paperboys beware, if you too are trying this.

Michael Holtet, a 50 year-old La Crosse man who worked as a local newspaper distributor for the Times in Wisconsin and Minnesota, was arrested in connection with the scheme and presented in Wisconsin federal court. Here’s the criminal complaint.

Here’s how the scheme allegedly worked: As part of his deal with the Times, Holtet was responsible for picking up daily and weekend copies of the Times from its local printers in Minnesota and elsewhere and distributing those copies to retail locations and home subscribers. The Times paid Holtet approximately 55 cents per weekday paper delivered to home subscribers and approximately $1.10 per Sunday paper.

At the end of 2006, according to the complaint, the average number of daily home subscribers in La Crosse was 65 and the average number of Sunday Times subscribers was 103. However, starting around 2007, those numbers began to climb rapidly, and by the beginning of 2008, there was an average of approximately 2,781 daily subscribers and 2,818 Sunday subscribers. The complaint says that jump was due to Holtet, who, when all was said and done, had created about 8,500 fraudulent subscriptions.

The SDNY is charging Holtet with one count of wire fraud, which carries a max sentence of 20 years in prison.

http://blogs.wsj.com/law/2008/08/05/newspaper-deliveryman-nabbed-in-alleged-scheme-to-defraud-times/?mod=homeblogmod_lawblog

[guy]

Tibbs ~
Dom DiMaggio
Phil Rizzuto
Jackie Robinson
Ed Gourinski MIA buddy
All small time bunters

[Kathleen]

Use fan license agreements to pay for stadium and parking, not public resources.

[Mr. Tibbs]

Guy
~~~~~Just rattling your cage Guy~~~~~~

[guy]

I know TIBBs~~~ we need each other here

[Rick Shott]

Hi Howard:

Was at the Commissioner's meeting till after 3P.M. Catch Mr. Stewart after the Catholic Church Group asked for funds for next year. Mr. Stewart in item 35 or 36 realizes that maybe there isn't the need for affordable housing and acknowledges rents are coming down. I had my 2 1/2 minutes at around 3P.M. I din't go after Mrs. Seel Like I said, but I turned in the sheet with a copy of your article from Aug 15, 2003 (A/P Renovations). Demanded an appology for how ww 2 Korea and Viet Nam Era Vets and their ladieswere trerated on July 22. Also for how Group Advisors were held in the lobby and not even allowed to use the elevator. Pretty boring stuff I guess. /brought Mr. Bennett into the fray also, since he stopped the crap when he found out about it!

[mary]

Come to think of it I do hate sports, why should I pay for a new stadium when I would much rather have the money spent on a new dance studio. My ex-husband would sit on that couch for god knows how many hours watching football, basketball, baseball and yes even that stupid sport of hockey, all the while the yard needed raking and other such cores needed to be done. Once he even had the nerve to tell me he was going to work, but instead went to that ridiculous trop stadium to see a rays game- omg! I finaly booted him out and now have a man that would rather go see a play or stay home and play cards. I think most women agree with my view. So ladies tell your man no new STADIUM!!!

Don Mott,

We agree!

First, I do not think I would oppose a plan to maybe contribute free public land to a stadium for which the rest of the public subsidy was to be repaid from stadium taxes. For that matter, I wouldn't oppose a plan for 100% private financing. But, I recognize that the public will have more imput into the design and location of a stadium that has some public contribution, and that may be worth some public contribution.

Second, (and I am betting you do not join me here), I think that there are three sets of benefits from a sports stadium.

1. The widespread (very difficult to measure with any precision) public benefits, both economic and non-financial from the team's economic and cultural impact.

2. The benefits to those who actually visit the stadium.

3. The benefits to those who receive monies in connection with the stadium and what goes on there. This group includes surrounding merchants, people who work at the Hotel where the visiting team stays, and everyone on the Team's payroll, among others.

I think the best stadium proposals are those that derive the bulk of their funds from the latter two sources. However, unlike you, Don, since I