ESPN football ranking puts USF 58th

No, no, not any kind of preseason 2007 snub to get fans in a late-summer tizzy.

Just an update on those ESPN.com 1-119 rankings we told you about the other day: USF checks in at No. 58 over the past decade. It's completely subjective, of course, but that's about where I thought the Bulls would fall, right in the middle of the pack, graduating in the top 50 percent of the class, if you will. The writeup calls USF "one of those surging programs" and adds that if they did the list again in two years, the Bulls might be 20 spots higher.

Ranking 58th puts them fourth among Big East schools, just behind Pittsburgh but ahead of Syracuse (63), Cincinnati (69), Rutgers (70) and Connecticut (77). And UCF (78), for that matter -- looks like Southern Miss and Marshall will both be in the top 50, though as the only Conference USA schools ranked in the top 70.

-- One recruiting update: As expected, defensive back Charlton "Cha-Cha" Sinclair of Jacksonville Mandarin has been academically cleared by the NCAA and will report with the rest of USF's football team on August 4. Sinclair, one of the most highly touted members of USF's incoming class, is a candidate to play this fall as a true freshman, much like safety Nate Allen did last year.

Comments

[Claudel]

Dang! I was off by 6 spots! If they do this again in 10 years I hope we are in the top 20.

[JoeB]

I misuderstood. I thought it was their Preseason Rankings so I guessed #30. For the Decade, it makes sense.

[Kyle]

After reading what they based some of the rankings on (ATTENDANCE, SUPPORT, TRADITION) I think USF ended up in a relatively fair spot, and being only a 10-11 year old program, we're gonna definitly be on the rise if they rank the teams again in a few years.

[cee]

58 is rather generous.. when you lose your homecoming game to Army, i think you've got a lot of issues in terms of attendance, support, and tradition.

[Reality]

Hey Cee, the only way "58" is generous is if we're talking about your football IQ.

[Dave]

I'm not upset by it- it really is meaningless because of the 2 year caveat they tacked on. "Cee" must be a UCFer jealous of our success. Clearly, the loss to Army hasn't really hurt USF in the long run (plus, it has been 3 years now). Additionally, what does that have to with attendance and support, cee? Back that statement up with some clarification (I don't expect it, I think Reality is right).

[cee]

Dave, i am a proud alum of the university of south florida. The army loss at homecoming delivered a big blow in terms of the PR for the program in the local area. because of this, the recruiting has suffered.. we are sitting in the middle of a recruiting goldmine being in central florida, and leavitt still brings in 2 stars or, worse yet, 3 stars that do not qualify academically. other "talent" that he brings in are eventually kicked off the team (e.g.- josh julmiste, johnny peyton).. leavitt goes for the quick fix rather than the solid 4-star guy with no character issues. because of this, we end up in carwash bowl games and pizza bowl games against non-bcs opponents. as for attendance, USF has not consistently sold out the lower half of RJS's seating. there is a reason for this: USF cannot consistently win. to the casual fan, it is hard to come out to a game after we lose to garbage programs like kansas, or last year connecticut.. or the year before that-- Army.

the performance on the field dictates your success in other areas and vice versa.. if you miss 1 piece of the puzzle, it all doesnt work.. leavitt is missing a lot of pieces, and that is what hurts us and gets us to these no-name bowl games. i expect more out of a BCS program in florida than one that squeaks past FIU by 1 pt and UCF by 1 touchdown. i am not a casual fan, i am a passionate fan.. and this is why i expect more from my alma mater.

[BadA$$Bull]

Dave, Your very close about Cee. He's a WVU fan that is obsessed with USF after the thrashing put upon his team. He also goes by TBONE61, TheMadeMute, WVUHERO, and EastBank1980. Pay no attention to his posts.

[Reality]

I am the real Reality, and I would appreciated the other one finding a new posting name!

I happen to agree with Cee. Obviously not a popular post on the USF site, but some of these things need to be brought up.

Carlton Hill does not belong on the USF campus, never did.
the criminal element at USF needs to be brought up and maybe a good story idea.

Maybe have a football ranking of the teams in the state with how many criminals they have on the team. I am going to guess that USF has a spectacular chance of being #1 in the State.

[usfpat]

we've been bcs for all of 2 years... things could be much worse, believe me. get over yourselves, if you truly are usf fans (which i doubt u "cee" f).

[Chris]

To the real 'Reality' and 'Cee',

I thought USF had one of the better home records in the country? I think if there is anything we do it is consistently win at home. Does that mean we never loose? No, we may loose the occasional game, and we may even have a bad season, but to say that we A) have a recruiting problem, and B) a criminal problem is just plain being ignorant to the rest of college football.

Stop reading about only USF and you won't think we are the worst team around. Every team is full of what you ignorant people would call thugs, but it seems to me we do a better job of not letting them slide. We take care of the problem no matter what you think. We could all push the Pacman Jones' and Michael Vick's of the world through our programs like they are great people, but we don't. We eliminate them so that guys like you can harp on the negative PR and ignore the fact that every other team has the same few bad guys, but they let them get away with anything for the sake of your bloated, bandwagon jumping ego. I wish fans like you would go ahead and claim you seat on another team's bandwagon.

[cee]

Chris, first of all, i do not appreciate you claiming i have a 'bloated, bandwagon jumping ego'. I suggest you conduct yourself with class on these public blogs and not taint the efforts of Greg Auman (thank you, greg, by the way) by using this as a forum for throwing insults.

Now, as to your point of how USF 'eliminates' these bad apples-- i ask you, why should we even bring these kids in to begin with? in most cases, they have a track record that follows them into USF, and it only ends up with leavitt cutting them anyways. why waste a scholarship on a criminal, only for them to be cut, when someone else can come in, remain disciplined and academically eligible, and contribute to our program. leavitt likes to live on the edge and take risks on these kids who have criminal backgrounds or academic question marks, only for them to be 'eliminated' anyways, as you have referred to. to me, that is a very poor recruiting strategy.

more importantly, bringing in trouble-makers is a blackeye to our university. remember, these kids are not just athletes, but representatives of our university in the media. nothing hurts me more than to hear about a USF commitment being charged for possession of marijuana and/or having public sex at his high school (carlton hill). or a USF commitment that is being charged for 6 felonies (leslie stirrups). I think what upsets me most is that there is so many more kids in this state of equal talent who have no issues and contribute to their programs immediately. again, a poor evaluation of talent.

[Chris]

I apologize if I offended you Cee. I truely feel that people who make coments like yours, paint a bad image for the program. I was making my 'badnwagon ego' statement based on the fact that someone else had stated that you also go by WVUHERO, if this is not true then let me know and I will fully retract any and all bloated ego comments.

Still, look at WV, Miami, Florida, and Florida State, they all have commits that do not make grades or come in with criminal records. It seems they have walk-ons get into the school, when we don't accept them. Other schools take the same chances, they just wrap everything up and let a good football player stay no matter what their character. Leavitt takes all the same risks, he just takes care of problems.

I wish we could find a group of perfect students and model citizens to win a national championship, but that is not realistic. You have a large group of people and that will always translate into one or two faulty characters. The difference is that for every person a program like USF removes there is one at the WV or UFs of the world that gets preferred treatment.

Voicing your opinion is great, but all I ask is that you should understand the impact, especially when the image of your alma mater is at stake. You may not think that what you say has an impact, but it does, and I don't think it is a very positive one. If you are truely a passionate USF fan you would do what is best for the program and not perpetuate issues that the coaching staff is handling rather well.

[Dave]

Cee- all I'm going to say is George Selvie was a 1-Star player on Scout. Care to argue against him? He came on after the Army loss. We have talent. I do agree that we need some 4 star kids, but it is Florida, and there are a lot of D-1 kids (over 300 per year). You still haven't backed up how the Army loss has hurt us. Each year since has been a new breakthrough (First bowl game, then first bowl win). I think you expect a BCS title and nothing else, but in 10 years, no school has touched what we have accomplished.
Also, I think our criminal element on the team is far less than Miami or FSU in their heydays (I can't think of his name, but the FSU LB who was a rookie for the Bengals last year stole from Lorenze Booker). We really have only had 5-6 really bad seeds in 10 years. We've had a lot of pot heads, but what team doesn't (not that I condone drug use, but they could be assaulting people or firing guns {Brandon Merriweather}).

[Reality]

Sounds like it would be a great research project for the Times to get the "stats" on the criminal element at the universities in the State, or maybe include the big east. Greg, I am sure you could do a heck of a Sunday article with this one. This would be the sort of thing that sells papers, and in the current state of the newspaper industry, it is something that would be of great interest and buzz on Monday morning at the cooler.

USF seems to be an easier sell to the great players, now that the on-campus facilities are being improved, and I would expect to see our quality improve. USF should do like Joe Paterno in the old days and not take questionable kids. While it is nice to get a Tony Dorsett, if it means lowering your standards, then it should not be done. Look at Bobby Bowden, he still gets questioned why he accepted Randy Moss all these years later. No need for more Carlton Hill's, when you have Matt Grothe's available. And sadly, even Grothe would appear on the criminal list for 2007. Pick up your standards, aim for the cream of the 300+ recruits in Florida and see what we can do to improve.

[cee]

Chris, before i comment, i must ask, why do you listen to what other people say about me? the fact that you have to listen to others on the rumor that i got by "WVUHERO" is rather childish and i do not appreciate that. I am a proud alum of USF and i doubt any WV fan knows as much about USF as i do. while you think what i am saying is bad for the program, i tell you this: i really wish these negative aspects of the program didn't exist. however, when the arrests, poor evaluation of talent, and losses to unranked opponents stop, they will no longer be in the media and we won't talk about them. however, they do and we do. i do not believe in sweeping these issues under the rug and neglecting the things about this program that destroy us from within. if it is a problem, it needs to be addressed.

Dave, do not claim i did not address your question without READING my posts.. i addressed your "army homecoming" question in my July 25, 2007 at 9:02 PM post. selvie is decent, but imagine if we had someone higher than a 1-star playing that position.. i think that is the problem with many casual fans.. they are CONTENT with these 1-stars and their performances. for a 1-star, selvie is producing.. however, if that was a 4-star, he'd be dominating. why opt for the 1-star when you can have the 4-star or 5-star? there's enough talent in florida to load up on 4 and 5 stars, why not get them? why must we reach towards the bottom of the barrel in recruiting and get 1-stars?

[G.A.]

Remember that for USF's coaches, their jobs are ultimately decided by the players they can recruit. They want to identify and bring in the most talented players they can. The star system at Rivals and Scout is one criteria for measuring a player's success; it's merely a projection though, like when an analyst thinks a draft pick is a reach because a team's board doesn't match his own. USF wants as many stars as possible on their recruits, but they have to go with their evaluations and not someone else's. It's hardly an exact science. I don't think USF would trade George Selvie right now for just about any end they could get, regardless of how many stars someone gave them in high school. Make sense?

[Claudel]

Cee,
For someone that claims te know football some of your statements are not intelligent. From a previous postof mine: "BTW according to Rivals the state of Florida (last year) had about 40 4/5 star recruits of which 4 were in what I consider the Tampa area (Bradenton, Seffner, Tampa). Most were in the Miami (UM base) and Lakeland (UF base)areas. It will take time to get our foot into these pipelines. Remember the program is only 10 years old."
Also, if Rivals/Scout had Selvie as a one star recruit that just shows they don't know a thing about talent evaluation. The kid is a beast that would start on 90-95% of the schools in division 1A. Since you know so much about USF football you would know Selvie dominated WVU and was second team freshmen All America with 76 tackles 12 for loss and 5.5 sacks. If this is the kind of 1 star recruits USF brings in they need to bring in more "1 star" recruits.

[Mack]

I want to drop this fact.

The Gators were the Bulls' steepest competition to get Leslie Stirrups. They offered him and would have taken him in a heart beat. Along with Nebraska, Arkansas, Alabama...

There is nothing wrong with the players USF gets. I agree with Chris, USF gets rid of the bad apples instead of waxing them and putting them back on the shelf. Carlton and Mike got arrested for being at a club where there was a fight. Matt got arrested for arguably the biggest lapse in Administration in USF Athletics history. I think the problem is corrected. Ricky Ponthead and Co were asked to leave the program over a violation which other teams sweep under the rug.

As far as recruiting, Leavitt is a master of team chemistry. He knows how to make lemonade.

On a lighter note, USF Recruit Jeff Hawkins is making real waves at several camps. He seems to be the real deal.

[Claudel]

Greg,

I have never seen this must traffic on your blog. Something must be stirring over here in Tampa. Hopefully this boiling liquid sees what we all want to see (at least 10-2).

[Cee is a Moron]

Cee:

How many 4-star players did NOT make the freshman All-American team?

In the case of someone like Selvie, it's not about number of stars before you sign, it's about number of tackles once you do.

Only a UCF-er would be remotely concerned about Selvie's perception as a 1-star recruit rather than his actual dominance on the field. At UCF, it's all about perception rather than winning. You fit right in.

[Reality]

don't you guys see the talent that Mike Ford possesses....that is a 4 star recruit. We need more of those to excel. Not many 1 star players become superstars. But many 4 star players do, and not everyone is going to pan out, so you need to get a couple. Mike Ford could be the thing to take USF to the next level, and 5 more like him, would get us into the BCS games and top-10 national ranking. I see everyone around here is very defensive. I think Cee is just bringing up some points that need to be discussed.

[Mack]

Mike Ford is not all that impressive. He is good. From what I've seen, Aston Samuels is quite a bit better.

[Claudel]

Reality,
Your right some more 4/5 star guys would be nice. Ford looks like the truth. How about C. Hill? He was/is a 4/5 star guy. Anyone (Cee) that attempts to say the USF needs an athletic department overhaul because after 11 years we are not stocked with 4/5 guys is just uniformed, not living in reality, or just plan dumb. The only thing about Leavitt that I don't like is he has a tendancy to be "short" with the media. As far as coaching and recruiting he has a great eye for talent.

[Dave]

Reality and Cee-

Don't you guys see the talent that Ben Moffitt, George Selvie, Amarri Jackson, Matt Grothe, Nate Allen, in fact, the whole team possess? Name another RS-Soph DE that is better than Selvie. Name 3 RS-Soph QBs than Matt Grothe. You can't. Greg is right- the criteria are different for evaluating players. I think we need some dominating freshmen for next years team, however, most of our starters could start for any team in the conference, with only a few exceptions. Conversely, lots of 4/5 star guys at UF or UM may not start at USF. I know that the heralded QBs at FSU or UM would not start here. The heralded QB we got in 2005 doesn't even start here. If Grothe were 3 inches taller, he would've been higher ranked.

Cee and Reality, you clearly are not supporters of USF athletics, no matter what your claims are. Anyone who knows anything about football knows that stars are a rough guide (I know I was pushing for 4 star guys last week, and I stand by it, but that doesn't mean I don't think 2 star guys can't be great players). You may have gone to USF, even attend our games. But your negativity pervades any sense of support you may have. This line "these 1-stars and their performances. for a 1-star, selvie is producing.. however, if that was a 4-star, he'd be dominating. why opt for the 1-star when you can have the 4-star or 5-star?" (Cee at 10 am) makes absolutely no sense. First of all, Selvie did dominate. Jarriet Buie, who was ranked #27 at his position DE out of Seffner, has not produced as much in 3 years as Selvie has in one.

[Mack]

Dave,

Buie is going to be a monster this year. He's been really stepping it up. Selvie is a top-10 NCAA defensive end. I hope he doesn't leave after this season.

[Claudel]

Amen Dave. A spattering of 4/5 star guys that can produce are all this team needs to be awesome/be over the top. In 3 more years USF will dominate the NCAA scene.

[Dave]

Mack, I hope you are right. I know he still has considerable potential, he just hasn't met expectations yet.

[BadA$$Bull]

Cee is Reality, Reality is Cee....Pay no attention do this joker. He's a demented WVU fan who enjoys screwing with people.

[cee]

OK, well Selvie is a 1-star and a good 1-star at that.. sure, he is productive, but he is a 1-star and a 1-star for a reason.. Reality is right-- 1-stars rarely become superstars, but 4-stars are impact players that change games..

for all you citing that Selvie had a great game against WVU: where was he against Kansas or Cincinnati? 4-stars come ready to make a difference in every game.. enough with jumping on selvie, he is just used as an example of the type of player that leavitt brings in.. one that shows up for a couple games but is silenced against programs like Kansas, Cincy, and pivotal games like Rutgers and UL last year... 1-stars, there is a reason why they are labeled as such..

also, if the star system didn't mean so much to you all, i will bet my house that you guys will be doing backflips IF we land a handful of 5-star bluechippers... funny how, when we gather 1-stars, it doesnt matter, but IF we gather bluechippers or former bluechippers (i.e.- mike ford), it becomes a reason to pound your chest.. hypocrisy?

[Mack]

Cee,

Jeff Hawkins is a 2-star recruit. If he had commited to Florida he'd be immediately a 4-star. Same guy, different perception. You can' get your wagon before the horse. This happens all the time. TBT and Mr. Auman should pay you to stir up their boards some more. Good work.

[Mack]

I meant St. Pete times.

[Reality]

Greg, please vouch for me, that I am not Cee. Just want to clear that up, as we have had fake Reality's this week already. Paranoia seems to reign supreme on this board whenever anyone doesnt spout from the kool aid buzz.

Reality clearly disagrees with Dave. Ford is a program changer. Just imagine if we had gotten N Devine and all the baggage that comes with him, you guys would be all excited. If Peyton wouldnt have smoked his way out of life, then you dont think he would have been a superstar? You get the upper level recruits and chances are they are going to be good players. And no, I do not see the talent that the "whole" team possesses. There are some quality players, but as a whole, it is not the most talented team in the State. I would say, it is the 4th best. I think every recruiting service in the country would agree.

[Chris]

1 star, 2 star, red star, blue star!

WHO CARES!

I think we can all agree that USF would love all 5 star recruits from here on out, but wake the heck up. We get 2 and 3 star recruits. Leavitt can pick the under-rated players. We all benefit. If we could get all 5 star recruits then recruiting would be easy.

As for expecting to never lose to anyone except the top 25 teams in the nation...quit smoking the bad stuff, it makes you hallucinate.

[G.A.]

Thirty-five posts! Craziness. First, just to answer a question, it certainly doesn't look like Cee is Reality, and vice versa. I can track IP addresses on comments, and none of Reality's match any of Cee's, so I can put that to rest, unless there's some elaborate hacking involved.

And I'm not getting paid anything extra for this blog, so I'm doubtful we're going to pay anyone for drumming up these kinds of posts. Cee's posts are the online equivalent of chum, though, for what it's worth.

I've yet to see any posts so alarming I've had to pull them, which is a testament to you guys being able to get along well with others. Don't go testing those limits though, right?

[Chris]

All it takes is a little enticement and people come alive.

Not to give Cee any advice, but when he started talking bad about J.L. you can expect some replies. To say Leavitt is a poor coach, recruiter, etc. I mean really, c'mon...

By the way...
Greg, I truly enjoy your writing. I actually get a sense of anticipation when I click on the link, just hoping that you have added another tidbit as you so often call them. Thanks for all of your time and effort. I know you get paid for all of this (lucky you!), but I can't imagine your required to monitor and post in your blog at midnight on a Thursday. So, simply put...thank you.

[BadA$$Bull]

Greg,

No elaborate hacking is necessary, simply another PC with access to an internet connection. I read your blog daily...keep up the good work.

[Claudel]

We (USF) are still many years away from pulling 4/5 "star" players consistently. We right now can pull 2/3 star guys. As far as Selvie anyone who says he is a "1 star" (not even a mid-major prospect/not ranked). Those people did not do their research. The kid is a Top 10 defensive end in the NCAA.

[Reality]

BADA$$ bull, please lay off the weed, the paranoia is not attractive. There can be more than one person in cyberspace who thinks USF has some things to work on.

don't get me started on the sham of a basketball program that we have to watch.....

[Bullster]

I would just like to add to this post that the University of South Florida has the best football program ever to exist on God's green earth. Every second of my life I am thankful that I will be able to watch them play come fall.

[Claudel]

Bullster,
If they were the best program ever they would win all of their games and be the number 1 team all season long. The program has a long way to go, but it is making great strides.

[Sandro]

I really don't understand some of you guys that come to this blog, and constantly talk bad about USF. If you are so unsatisfied about this program, be a fan of a different school. I can understand that you make a negative comment once in a while, but constantly brining all this negativity is just not being a fan of a school. I just don't understand why you don't go to a different blog. It seems that whatever USF does you are going to find something negative. No USF fan here way saying that USF will win the championship this year, we are all just excited about this season and optimistic for good reason. We have a much better team then last year or any year before that. Look how far we have come in our 10-year history. Nobody would have even come close of doing what we have done. Of course it will take a few more years, but the future is very bright for this program. I know there are a few things that USF has to work on, but I could never talk that bad about a team, and still consider myself a fan. I could talk that bad about WV and Rutgers, but never USF.
To talk bad about Jim Leavitt it's just crazy because if he was so bad as some of you are saying, then why are all these top schools going after him. The support for USF around this town is not there yet, but believe me it will come soon. You are right that there is a waiting list for the bucs, but I know that they called bunch of people who have been on the waiting list this past off-season to see if anybody wanted the tickets. Another year like this previous one, and there will be no waiting list any more. I think people in this city will realize that is much better to go to a very exciting USF football game rather then a boring bucs game.
GO BULLS!!!!!!!!!

[SRQ FAN]

I'm a Bulls fan, season ticket holder, and have no other connection to the school. I think this gives me a certain bit of objectivity regarding the program, and I think that the team is now on a fast track to becoming a major national program, but not there yet. We do need to increase the quality level of the recruits, both athletically and character wise. We are getting 2-3 star level players, who are basically the leftovers from the current national powers. They are typically too short, too slow or too small to be 4-5 star athletes, and that is what we are building with. Become a consistent winner, get major TV time, more players drafted, and you get more 4-5 star athletes. The character issue is a crapshoot, but you move on it quickly when it becomes an issue. One of the best indications of progress will be when USF is able to recruit 4-5 star players from out of state-that says you are on the map.
Levitt has been a very effective coach, but has some significant PR shortcomings-he is going to have to learn how to work with the press, 'cause that's how you get good copy-"no comment" doesn't do it, nor does restricting access to players and assistants. The major danger is that the needs of the program will outgrow Levitt's management style, and progress will stop.
I'm really looking forward to this season, and to the program taking a MAJOR step forward. It has been fun to watch them grow, and I'm confident it will really move up this season.